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A Letter Of Intent To CVA

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Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian You sir are assuming piracy . . . No you sir are assuming idiocy. Try to maintain a blue standing with someone on the red list of CVA and see how long you continue to be welcome in Providence by your new masters. Frankly the forums are littered with examples of cases where people have gained red status from the CVA & holders list for nothing more than being friends with someone CVA have set red previous who may in turn have only been set red for the same reason. What a lovely little snowball it makes for them. You can make all the retorts you like. We have seen it. We have heard it. We have examined it. We have evidence from CVA holders that this occurs. Heartstone. ---
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:11:00 - [32] Originally by: Merdaneth Really, no difference there. Utter rubbish. Seriously Merdaneth you know nothing about how we chose to set red who we chose and it is certainly a great deal stricter and with my less relish we do so than CVA does. Talk to some of those who we have regrettably had to set red who talked to us and see how willing we were to reset them to neutral as long as we are guaranteed that they do not actively work against us. Frankly your little snipes are tiresome so please consider this the last you will hear from me as you have no intention it seems in doing anything but disparage the only organisation I have ever been a part of that actively tries to keep as many people off the red list as possible. Don't forget I was in a CVA pet corp. I've seen first hand how things work. Heartstone. ---
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:14:00 - [33] Edited by: Invelious on 27/08/2009 22:14:15 Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Eternum Praetorian You sir are assuming piracy . . . No you sir are assuming idiocy. Try to maintain a blue standing with someone on the red list of CVA and see how long you continue to be welcome in Providence by your new masters. Frankly the forums are littered with examples of cases where people have gained red status from the CVA & holders list for nothing more than being friends with someone CVA have set red previous who may in turn have only been set red for the same reason. What a lovely little snowball it makes for them. You can make all the retorts you like. We have seen it. We have heard it. We have examined it. We have evidence from CVA holders that this occurs. Heartstone. Please provide this evidence Heartstone, because many of us on friendly terms with people in the amarr militia that are set red to CVA, have not suffered from red status from CVA. i.e, being on NAP terms with AB-C(may not be red anymore), & slackers, there are a few more but you get my point.(mind you, when they leave the militia, they are set red again so long as they are on the CVA list, except for AB-C, i will never set BC's corp red.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Invelious Please provide this evidence Heartstone, because many of us on friendly terms with people in the amarr militia that are set red to CVA, have not suffered from red status from CVA. i.e, being on NAP terms with AB-C(may not be red anymore), & slackers, there are a few more but you get my point.(mind you, when they leave the militia, they are set red again so long as they are on the CVA list, except for AB-C, i will never set BC's corp red. Do your own research. It's on IGS. Heartstone. ---
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:22:00 - [35] Actually just forget I was part of this conversation. Frankly it has become impossible to talk on IGS of late without the usual kneejerk SF haters spinning their tripe so I can't be bothered anymore. Heartstone. ---
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Heartstone Utter rubbish. Seriously Merdaneth you know nothing about how we chose to set red who we chose and it is certainly a great deal stricter and with my less relish we do so than CVA does. Talk to some of those who we have regrettably had to set red who talked to us and see how willing we were to reset them to neutral as long as we are guaranteed that they do not actively work against us. Frankly your little snipes are tiresome so please consider this the last you will hear from me as you have no intention it seems in doing anything but disparage the only organisation I have ever been a part of that actively tries to keep as many people off the red list as possible. Don't forget I was in a CVA pet corp. I've seen first hand how things work. Mr. Hearstone, I was not arguing the methods, I was arguing the effects. You complained about the very existence and enforcement of rules, not about the way they come about. If your argument is 'I'm against how the CVA red list comes about and is maintained and our SF methods of doing so are superior!', then say so. Don't start complaining about people are forced to suffer CVA's red list in Providence when others similarly suffer SF red list in the part of space they roam. Don't complain about membership of a greater whole implying consequence for your freedom of choice. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:47:00 - [37] Originally by: Heartstone Actually just forget I was part of this conversation. Frankly it has become impossible to talk on IGS of late without the usual kneejerk SF haters spinning their tripe so I can't be bothered anymore. Heartstone. Mr. Heartstone. You were never 'part of this conversation' as you put it. Behold: Originally by: Heartstone So you intend to set your own standings ignoring the CVA demanded +10/-10 list for activity in Providence then? Have fun with that. Your comment was not something to start an open and honest debate with, it was a snipe. Those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:57:00 - [38] Originally by: Merdaneth Your comment was not something to start an open and honest debate with, it was a snipe. Those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind. As I said already I'm done Merd. The rest of the cluster can think what it likes without me even trying to put any viewpoint across anymore. I simply don't care any more. Heartstone. ---
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:24:00 - [39] How entertaining. It is amazing that after all these years UK and SF can aspire towards new heights of ignorance and idiocy. Oh, and Heartstone, perhaps if SF did not leap into so many topics with their propaganda you would not be shot down and feel the need to quit. Putting it simply, you get what you deserve. Now run along.
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Merdaneth Your comment was not something to start an open and honest debate with, it was a snipe. Those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind. As I said already I'm done Merd. The rest of the cluster can think what it likes without me even trying to put any viewpoint across anymore. I simply don't care any more. Heartstone. One SF spin doctor down, chalk one up for the good guys, now time to shut down Cosmo and Jadder and the IGS can be finally purged of the cr@p that is Star Fraction.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:42:00 - [41] Edited by: Xennith on 27/08/2009 23:42:34 Nice to see you too Pezzel and Invelous. What an absolute pleasure it is to exchange witty arguments with you two gentlemen.
Dr Edart	Posted - 2009.08.28 08:36:00 - [42] Originally by: Heartstone Edited by: Heartstone on 27/08/2009 20:50:37 Originally by: Dr Edart Yes it is horrible that CVA have set forth a system that allows people to know who are hostile and who are friendly, and who are neutral in a NRDS Region, how dare they do that! Yeah Free thought is so overrated isn't it? This way I can attack people who have done nothing to me. Have never attacked me. Never even shown ANY hostile intent towards me simply because CVA say so. Where do I sign? Grow up and stop asking for permission to do as you see fit. Heartstone. Moar smoke and mirrors! Laughable! You heard it here first folks! to coin a phrase, just because we came into providence and shot up everyone else does not mean were going to do it to you! Right... With rational thought like that you cant be wrong. With the political situation in every other 0.0 area of New Eden, a pilot is shot on sight if he is not a renter, resident, ally, corp member, alliance member, or known friendly. They are using thier free thought quite fine and well, kill the known hostiles before they themselves are killed by them, or dock up and seek safe refuge if they dont want to be a target. Free thought indeed. A known criminal of Providence like the Star Fraction should be met with nothing more than the barrel of a gun, just like any other hostile pirate and terrorist.
Graelyn Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:23:00 - [43] Originally by: Heartstone Actually just forget I was part of this conversation. Frankly it has become impossible to talk on IGS of late without the usual kneejerk SF haters spinning their tripe so I can't be bothered anymore. Heartstone. Reputation does matter, doesn't it? The one you enjoy has been cultivated for many years. This is where you fall down.
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.28 11:56:00 - [44] One of the most discouraging things if you are a part of free space movement is that majority of pilots in fact do not want free space. They want to be a part of a herd. Welcome to the herd, Retribution. Inc.. I am not going to go into what CVA demands and what it doesn't, but let me just say that an official, even if merely a guideline, list of friendlies and hostiles implies conformity to the views of majority. CVA might do nothing if you decide to NAP an organization set KOS on a CVA wha****called list, but the rest of the herd will not look kindly upon you when you don't engage someone they see as hostile. That is the accepted behavior among the herd pilots all over the cluster it seems. If you are not one of us, you are against us.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.28 12:35:00 - [45] Originally by: Graelyn Originally by: Heartstone Actually just forget I was part of this conversation. Frankly it has become impossible to talk on IGS of late without the usual kneejerk SF haters spinning their tripe so I can't be bothered anymore. Heartstone. Reputation does matter, doesn't it? The one you enjoy has been cultivated for many years. Graelyn, lets not be silly now. You know the point Heart was making and the drivel that was being spouted. Try not to reduce yourself to the same level now, hmmm? When someone can make a sensible point and it be countered with "la la la I'm not listening" and a comment that can only be associated through a squint in a dark room, 40 pints and some of the more interesting drugs I have laying around, it can test the patience of a saint. CVA, regardless of what it says publicly or officially, enforces its standing list upon its holders. We've heard this from those holders, both publicly and privately, we have ex-holders in our ranks, everything. Fingers in ears and singing la la la is not going to alter that fact. Hell! the original letter of this thread pretty much says it! Please visit the section where he details how he will earn his status. SF does not, nor will it ever enforce another entity to follow it's standings. Yes merd, members in SF follow a common standings list. The fact that you raise this in answer to Hearts claim of CVA's standings enclosurism is utter idiocy and reaching of the highest order, bordering on arguments of the standard "you just killed that man!", "well you're as bad, you've got red hair!". Frankly, I can see why Heart would run short of patience, thinking down to that level must give you a headache! -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Tecam Hund One of the most discouraging things if you are a part of free space movement is that majority of pilots in fact do not want free space. They want to be a part of a herd. Welcome to the herd, Retribution. Inc.. I am not going to go into what CVA demands and what it doesn't, but let me just say that an official, even if merely a guideline, list of friendlies and hostiles implies conformity to the views of majority. CVA might do nothing if you decide to NAP an organization set KOS on a CVA wha****called list, but the rest of the herd will not look kindly upon you when you don't engage someone they see as hostile. That is the accepted behavior among the herd pilots all over the cluster it seems. If you are not one of us, you are against us. And if we were all free space pilots then we would just be part of the free space herd, whats absolutly amusing is that here we have a group of rejects(SF) fighting for a "free space movement" and out of all of the power blocks in eve that hold on to their space with a iron grip, SF has opted to oppose CVA the most. CVA being one of those alliances thats closer to a "free space" movement than any other by allowing anyone into their space freely, so long as they can obey a few simple rules.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:48:00 - [47] Originally by: Heartstone Actually just forget I was part of this conversation. Frankly it has become impossible to talk on IGS of late without the usual kneejerk SF haters spinning their tripe so I can't be bothered anymore. Heartstone. I happen to like SF and hold them in high regard... ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Neu Bastian Minmatar Valklear Guard Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:09:00 - [48] Edited by: Neu Bastian on 28/08/2009 14:09:53 Originally by: Invelious CVA being one of those alliances thats closer to a "free space" movement than any other by allowing anyone into their space freely, so long as they can obey a few simple rules. Are you actually trying to portray CVA space, owned by a self proclaimed slaver organization, "free space?" What other meaningful insights are you able to provide? Quote: Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:04:00 - [49] As usual, Merdaneth is the worst interlocutor on the thread. Invelious, while incoherent, is at least more honest. The prime issue is not the means by which a red list is constructed (though that is an important matter in itself), nor the following of a red list by a sovereign corporation or alliance, but rather the enforcement of the adoption of a red list. I will point out why the 'law' as enforced by the CVA and its vassals in Providence is a law of standings enclosurism at least as bad and I would say in some cases worse than regimes that exist in other regions of 0.0 despite all the propaganda that the CVA pumps out ceaselessly about how it is 'freer' than other 0.0 regimes. I'll present my argument and base it on the 'law' as provided by the CVA warlord Solusar: Originally by: "Solusar (spacing re-arranged and numbers introduced for clarity by The Cosmopolite û all other content unaltered)" 1) Greater Providence is open for transit, commerce, faction bounty hunting and asteroid mining to all pilots, corporations, and alliances who obey the law 2) If attacked, lawful pilots, corporations and alliances may defend themselves to the fullest extent of their ability 3) No pilot, corporation or alliance shall conduct piracy 4) No pilot, corporation or alliance shall extort, blackmail or give ransoms 5) No pilot, corporation or alliance shall defraud or swindle to obtain ISK, an object, rights or anything of value belonging to another 6) No pilot, corporation or alliance shall initiate an attack against another unless that pilot, corporation or alliance is expressly wanted on the Deliverance KOS List 7) No pilot, corporation or alliance shall anchor a station or outpost without the express permission of the constellationÆs Administrator 8) Corporations shall be held accountable for the actions of their pilots and Alliances shall be held accountable for the actions of their corporations 9) CONCORD sanctioned wars shall not release a pilot, corporation or alliance from adherence to the law 10) The High Magistrate shall mediate all challenges and disputes and his/her ruling in such matters shall be final and conclusive Let's examine the CVA's ten commandments. Number one tells us that Providence is open to those that 'obey the law'. So presumably the place is closed to those who don't obey the law, whether they are peaceful or not. Note that entirely peaceful actions can break 'the law'. Number two tells us that 'lawful pilots' may defend themselves. Useful for clarity but that it needs to be said is telling. Number three tells us that 'piracy' is forbidden. No definition of 'piracy' is supplied. Presumably the 'High Magistrate' can decide this at his pleasure. Number four tells us that extortion, blackmail and ransoming is forbidden. The irony of this is exquisite, for sure. Number five tells us that fraud is forbidden. Again, amusing and ironic. But let my amusement pass and take four and five at face value. From here on it gets very interesting. Before dealing with six and seven, we'll quickly note eight as a general proposition of no great controversy and number nine recognises that CONCORD wars have no moral significance in themselves. Number ten is the inevitable 'the law means what we say it means' clause. Now, while it is clear that the CVA are territorial enclosurists, the requirement to seek permission to establish infrastructure shows they are on the same level with other 0.0 powers that enforce this as a matter of course. Rule six is where the effective enforcement of standings comes in. This provision forbids the establishment of private red lists. This means that any entity that wishes to use legitimate pre-emptive techniques of defence must adopt the CVA red list and, if they have a difficulty with another entity, it is in their interest to work to get that entity put on the CVA red list. This is the core of standings enclosurism and its enforcement is simple gangsterism by the CVA. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Neu Bastian Edited by: Neu Bastian on 28/08/2009 14:09:53 Originally by: Invelious CVA being one of those alliances thats closer to a "free space" movement than any other by allowing anyone into their space freely, so long as they can obey a few simple rules. Are you actually trying to portray CVA space, owned by a self proclaimed slaver organization, "free space?" What other meaningful insights are you able to provide? well yes I am, as it is free to the general public to go in and exploit the resources(moon mining as the exception) for themselves without harm for those that govern it
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:21:00 - [51] Cosmo, you are one tough spin doc to crack, respect.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:22:00 - [52] So its free, unless they decide to enslave you and if they do, well, obviously that doesnt count. The reasoning escapes me.
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:35:00 - [53] Originally by: Xennith So its free, unless they decide to enslave you and if they do, well, obviously that doesnt count. The reasoning escapes me. Sorry, but I dont recall CVA enslaving anyone. can you provide a example?
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:48:00 - [54] Erm... sure. Go into any CVA station and look on the manufacturing lines, see the guys addicted to vitoc? Those are slaves. You're welcome.
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Xennith Erm... sure. Go into any CVA station and look on the manufacturing lines, see the guys addicted to vitoc? Those are slaves. You're welcome. Oh I thought you meant pod pilots, because that is who we are talking about here.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:06:00 - [56] Edited by: Merdaneth on 28/08/2009 16:09:33 Originally by: The Cosmopolite Let's examine the CVA's ten commandments. Number one tells us that Providence is open to those that 'obey the law'. So presumably the place is closed to those who don't obey the law, whether they are peaceful or not. Note that entirely peaceful actions can break 'the law'. Star Fraction is also open to all pilots. All pilots joining Star Fraction must obey the Star Fraction rules. If a pilot does not obey the Star Fraction laws, regardless whether the actions are peaceful or not, he will be held accountable. No difference there. Originally by: The Cosmopolite Number two tells us that 'lawful pilots' may defend themselves. Useful for clarity but that it needs to be said is telling. Number three tells us that 'piracy' is forbidden. No definition of 'piracy' is supplied. Presumably the 'High Magistrate' can decide this at his pleasure. I believe you can simply use the same definition Star Fraction uses: no shooting at non-red/non-hostile entities unless in self-defense. Insinuating that the High Magistrate can decide that at his pleasure is unneccessary. Similarly I would not accuse the SF CEO or directors from changing their piracy definition constantly to suit them. Both CVA magistrates and SF directors have the power to abuse their power, and if they do abuse it a lot, people will not follow them anymore or topple the leadership. That's true for SF and CVA. Originally by: The Cosmopolite Number four tells us that extortion, blackmail and ransoming is forbidden. The irony of this is exquisite, for sure. Number five tells us that fraud is forbidden. Again, amusing and ironic. But let my amusement pass and take four and five at face value. Indeed. Laws against fraud, extortion, blackmail, ransoming and fraud are hilarious. I mean, who would even think of such laws? Unneccessary and weird laws no proper civilizations should have. What does Star Fraction do with pilots that extort, blackmail, ransom and fraud their fellow Fractioneers? Applaud them? 'Join Star Fraction, we allow and approve of corp theft!'? Originally by: The Cosmopolite Now, while it is clear that the CVA are territorial enclosurists, the requirement to seek permission to establish infrastructure shows they are on the same level with other 0.0 powers that enforce this as a matter of course. Indeed. However, the lack of required blue standings is the essential difference between the two. CVA merely realizes that infrastructural planning is more efficient than everyone just putting down infrastructure willy-nilly. Originally by: The Cosmopolite Rule six is where the effective enforcement of standings comes in. This provision forbids the establishment of private red lists. Indeed, it does. Incidentally, I believe Star Fraction forbids private red lists for their pilots as well. Is there a fundamental problem with another entity than yourself dictating you cannot have a private red list? Any entity within Star Fraction can argue for adopting some of their own reds to be added to the general red list as well, can they? If one of the Star Fraction pilots has difficulty with another entity, is it not in their best interest to get this entity added to the general Star Fraction red list? Perhaps there are fundamental difference in the process these red lists come about, and how easily they are added or removed. Please argue that point, rather than trying to make a big deal of individuals being forced to adopt reds they didn't have red themselves and forces to abandon their own reds unless they manage to convince the larger organization because CVA and SF are much the same in that respect. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:21:00 - [57] Merdaneth, the entirety of your argument, such as it is, depends on a conflation of choosing to operate in a given territory with choosing to belong to a given organization. If one is willing to accept that there is a real distinction between the two, which there is, then your attempt to make the Star Fraction's internal codes of conduct and the CVA's 'Law of Providence' resemble one another, bizarre in and of itself, falls apart. Of course, the CVA certainly want to make operating in Providence and becoming a member of the Providence bloc one and the same, and the entire thrust of their 'law' is aimed at the enforcement of this. So I suppose, by holding to the notion of there being no distinction between operating in a territory and being a member of an organization, you usefully illustrate one of the core principles of the enclosurist philosophy. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.28 19:01:00 - [58] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Merdaneth, the entirety of your argument, such as it is, depends on a conflation of choosing to operate in a given territory with choosing to belong to a given organization. If one is willing to accept that there is a real distinction between the two, which there is, then your attempt to make the Star Fraction's internal codes of conduct and the CVA's 'Law of Providence' resemble one another, bizarre in and of itself, falls apart. You are entirely right of course. There is a difference between the two. I don't believe the difference is sufficient to preclude the comparison though. Originally by: The Cosmopolite Of course, the CVA certainly want to make operating in Providence and becoming a member of the Providence bloc one and the same, and the entire thrust of their 'law' is aimed at the enforcement of this. So I suppose, by holding to the notion of there being no distinction between operating in a territory and being a member of an organization, you usefully illustrate one of the core principles of the enclosurist philosophy. I never claimed CVA policies weren't enclosurist. My claim was merely that SF employs largely the same policies to much the same effect, albeit on a slightly different level. Therefore your claim should be that you do not approve of enclosurist methods to police a region of space, but are perfectly fine with those same methods to police an organization. In effect, you painted Star Fraction as a non-space holding enclosurist organization. And as you insightfully remarked, one does not have to be a member of a specific Concord-approved organization to be part of an certain association of people which share rules and laws. Concord does not allow licensed pilots to be a member of more than one corporation, and does not allow a corporation to belong to more than one alliance. However, to view our universe just through this lens offered to us by Concord is restrictive at best, foolish at worst. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.28 19:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Invelious And if we were all free space pilots then we would just be part of the free space herd, whats absolutly amusing is that here we have a group of rejects(SF) fighting for a "free space movement" and out of all of the power blocks in eve that hold on to their space with a iron grip, SF has opted to oppose CVA the most. CVA being one of those alliances thats closer to a "free space" movement than any other by allowing anyone into their space freely, so long as they can obey a few simple rules. We do not fight for a free space movement, we are a free space movement. What you fail to realize is that Free Space is not a place, it is a state of mind where one accepts that he or she is a sovereign entity and has no need for the hierarchical structure of a herd. It is impossible for a free spacer to be in a herd, just as it is impossible for pilots who support law enforcement regime of Providence to be free spacers. Order is supposed to stem from self-governance; not from law enforcement. And the truth is that CVA's herd is not capable of self-governance so they turn to their shepherd for guidance and support.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.08.28 22:28:00 - [60] I am a busy women and do not have much time to search through the archives of this summit. I think this is one of the cases that Heartstone is talking about. Linkage An industrial corp gets set red because of their friendly relationship with Brotherhood of Starbridge. (Ex-members that left the alliance before it was declared KOS). --- Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist

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