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Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 16:52:00 - [1] Hey folks! I'm an old hand at Eve, although I've never been particularly active in the market section of the Eve forums. I've done my share of investing from time to time in various ventures, and have always done well for myself because I operate on a few principles. Let me preface what I'm about to say with this: I'm no longer in the "super rich" club. I disappeared from Eve for a year or two. When I left, I had close to 800 billion ISK worth of loans outstanding; I didn't plan on returning to Eve, so I basically told everyone to keep them, and enjoy Eve. These days, I hover at under 100bn in personal wealth, although I still have a library of absolutely ridiculous mods (looks guiltily at his Vindicator and its 60bn ISK worth of fittings). I thought I'd share a few ramblings of my own, and some of my own experiences and enterprises in hopes of helping some wishful tycoons achieve their goals. ******** Lesson One: Fill a Need Making money in Eve is the same as making money in life. Find a need and fill it. Back in 2004, I made vast sums of money supplying and trading implants. In 2005 and part of 2006, I hired myself out to anchor POSes in highsec for corporations. I did both of these before those were popular and mainstream professions, and moved on to others things as my cutting edge was lost. One of my proudest creations is Eve Online Hold'Em. I found a niche, I created an empire, and profited immensely from it. The list goes on of various enterprises. The morale of the story is this: What do people you know wish they had? Wish they could do? What do you wish you could do or have for a service? Chances are, someone else feels the same way as you and there's a niche for you to fill. Find that niche and start building. ****** Lesson Two: Secure Your Investments There are no police in Eve. If someone steals your money, there's no court of law, no grounds for retaliation nor recompense. That makes trust a very difficult asset. If you're going to invest significant portions of your funds into something, do your research. Once upon a time, I poured significant funds into IRON's capital ship program. I funded Titans for another alliance. I paid for KIA's 0.0 expansion endeavors. When IRON came under assault from BoB and things...imploded....I was the first investor to get my money back. If I'm going to invest 1 billion, or 5 billion, or 100 billion, or...anything significant into someone, there's a few things I need to know. I need to know who they are in real life, where they live, we will talk on the phone in advance, and I do appropriate research. For me personally, if someone lives in another country, and showing up at their doorstep to politely request a return on my investment isn't possible, I don't invest. As an American, you wouldn't put your money in a bank in Nigeria. In game, you shouldn't invest in something beyond your reach either. I'm not advocating anything, but I have a simple rule of thumb: If someone who wants billions and billions of my ISK isn't willing to share real life details with me, they aren't trustworthy. Lesson Three: There is only ONE safe investment This is the last lesson because I'm running out of space. If you want to invest your ISK into something, there is only ONE safe place to do so: In yourself. If you can't afford to "get into anything" then you shouldn't be investing anyway, you should be earning capital the old-fashioned way (mission running, mining, etc): Never invest more than you are willing to lose. Invest in yourself, and your own schemes and abilities to make ISK. The idea that someone else has a mystical means of making ISK better than you is nonsense. If you can't do something because its too much ISK, change your goals. Or find a partner or three to go into the venture with you. But invest in yourself. ********** Nothing super special in my advice, but common sense seems to be a rare trait. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 16:54:00 - [2] As for myself.... I've been asked a time or two to start an IPO, but there comes a point when you honestly don't care about ISK anymore. You have everything, and enough ISK to buy anything else that you could ever want. I don't plan on starting an IPO to generate ISK because I don't need any more. But at least I can share part of how I got to where I am. :) -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Lady Charnoob	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:12:00 - [3] Welcome back. Hope this will be an interesting thread. - LC
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:50:00 - [4] Sorry for derailing your very nice thread (I hope you'll expand on it!) but I have to quote this: Quote: As an American, you wouldn't put your money in a bank in Nigeria. In game, you shouldn't invest in something beyond your reach either. I'm not advocating anything, but I have a simple rule of thumb: If someone who wants billions and billions of my ISK isn't willing to share real life details with me, they aren't trustworthy As a not American, when I shared my RL details in my first MMO I played, I got stalked and RL menaced of death. Beware when giving away your vital details, because if you risk to lose 100B of pixels, it's still better than getting a RL knife in your belly. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:54:00 - [5] I haven't really considered stalking, but am not worried about that for a business situation. I just need to know that when I invest ISK into something, the recipient of my funds knows in the back of his mind that I can reach out and touch them if they choose to steal from me. There are no mechanisms in place to keep people honest in this game, so you have to do it yourself. :) -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Rhivre Caldari Built to Last New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:56:00 - [6] I agree with VV, I have a circle of people who have my real name, and know which city I live in...or they know my first name at least, along with some other personal details, and I know theirs, there are some that live near me so I will probably meet up one day for a coffee... Beyond that, my details are my details :) But, having said that, I wouldnt give large quantities of isk to anyone outside that circle anyway.
Galal Dax The Panopticon G-R-I-E-V-A-N-C-E	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:59:00 - [7] Welcome back brother! I have several business ventures I am looking at. How about 10 B as an investment in a business venture by your long lost little brother?

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.08.29 18:21:00 - [8] Hi in thread about the rambling bear /waves/ Secure 3rd party service

Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 18:33:00 - [9] Hey Chribbs. =) Long time no chat! I've been away far too long. I've got new music though, hosted on your internetz. =p -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Contralto GCHQ	Posted - 2009.08.29 18:46:00 - [10] Welcome back! always nice to see the old faces again. Last time you were around you were doing some kind of uber PVP contest if I recall What have you got lined up this time? I started the Pos standings thing after you finished, now i have handed on to others and moved on, was good Isk while it lasted.
Yin Xue	Posted - 2009.08.29 18:47:00 - [11] Quote: ...For me personally, if someone lives in another country, and showing up at their doorstep to politely request a return on my investment isn't possible, I don't invest... That's ridiculous, CCP's line is that money someone scams off you is theirs, turning up at their house to collect is not something they would smile upon. And: Quote: I haven't really considered stalking, but am not worried about that for a business situation. I just need to know that when I invest ISK into something, the recipient of my funds knows in the back of his mind that I can reach out and touch them if they choose to steal from me. As far as I know eve's EULA doesn't prohibit extorting personal information like this, but the way you put that is still fairly creepy. And I don't think VV was warning you about stalkers, he was more likely pointing out predators are likely to do exactly the same thing. They get the addresses, phone numbers and trust of the younger more vulnerable members of the game for only a few billion loaned isk. I'm not saying you are doing that, but I still think no-one should take that chance based on your persona in this game. And when you knock on the door and they tell you to get on your bike what will you do? Even continuing to hassle them out of game after that point is suspect, and trying to force them to pay is highly illegal, and I doubt the police will be swayed by "I'm an internet spaceships loan shark" Crazy that anyone took you up on this, i thought Eve players were a tad more savvy
Contralto GCHQ	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:29:00 - [12] Watch out Curzon, the PC brigade will attempt to bring you into line I understood your meaning!
Jinangel	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:46:00 - [13] Edited by: Jinangel on 29/08/2009 19:46:08 edit
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Yin Xue That's ridiculous, CCP's line is that money someone scams off you is theirs, turning up at their house to collect is not something they would smile upon. And: You're welcome to play how you will, as I do myself. Extortion is the absolute wrong word to use here. If someone is asking me to voluntarily give them something, I'm asking them to voluntarily disclose information in return. If you aren't comfortable with that, that's FINE. You can get ISK somewhere else. There's no extortion involved in a voluntary action. Your post makes you sound like someone I wouldn't want to do business with. You want someone to invest billions of ISK with an anonymous person that they know nothing about. You're welcome to, but its poor investment advice. I'm not worried about having to show up at someone's door asking for ISK. Its a state of mind on the part of the party soliciting ISK. If they're open and trusting, then I'm willing to be so in return. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Fraps Setenta Corp Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.08.29 20:39:00 - [15] Curzon Dax is an excellent example of why we here in the states hang on to our second amendment rights Originally by: Rohann /emote pokes woody and moons him I R NEKID SEE!?!?!?!?!
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:11:00 - [16] If you insist on looking at it that way, then sure. I'm an avid second amendment rights fan too. Not sure why you think that's relevant. Governments across the world have been making rulings that virtual property reflects in the real world, and I must reiterate: If you're planning on investing in someone's venture, and care to know nothing more than their digital avatar's name, you deserve what happens to you, and what keeps happening to people in Eve. Research your investments and protect your assets. I'm not worried about having to show up at someone's doorstep to reclaim my ISK. People who are honest with a transparent business business plan and no plans on stealing ISK and need investment aren't afraid to stop being an anonymous avatar in a digital spaceship game. shrugs Play how you like, I'm just offering my advice. You're a nameless...no-one? I've come close to the trillion ISK mark without starting any massive IPO projects. I encourage everyone to play as they like and do what they wish. I'm just sharing how I got there, and its obviously worked. =) -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Samroski	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:23:00 - [17] Thank you for your insights. I like your lesson 3 which make a LOT of sense, especially if you follow MD. This lesson though, is contradictory to lesson 2, as generally there should be no need to secure an investment in yourself. The thought of you showing up at my door is not pleasant, and thus it probably works :) I do not advocate it myself. I also share the concern of inexperienced players giving personal details to someone lending them a bil or two.
Fraps Setenta Corp Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:25:00 - [18] I'm not sure if you are offended by that comment or not. but it was meant in jest, as I'm sure was the whole reaching out and touching someone comment. your stance on knowing more about some one is a good idea, I doubt people would be as eager to rip some one off if they had a more personal connection. perhaps if everyone who had invested in EBANK was more personally involved they would not be out all of there isk. as for being a nameless nobody? this is a game, unless you have acquired a trillion real dollars to go with that virtual currency you had. the only thing you have accomplished is helping to pay the bills at CCP. I don't play EVE for anything more than entertainment value. thus I do not need to be some famous in game character, the people that do I suspect are simply making up for something that is lacking in RL, if thats your case then you have both my sympathy and pity. but as you founded EOH poker, I will happily say thanks for that, it is one addition to EVE that I truly appreciate. Originally by: Rohann /emote pokes woody and moons him I R NEKID SEE!?!?!?!?!
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Samroski Thank you for your insights. I like your lesson 3 which make a LOT of sense, especially if you follow MD. This lesson though, is contradictory to lesson 2, as generally there should be no need to secure an investment in yourself. You needn't give advice on buying apples and buying oranges in the same sentence and make them relate to each other. There will always be people who want to make ISK without any work; that's what investing in other people is for. Just some words of wisdom in doing so. If you're not uber-rich and looking for somewhere to throw ISK, then you should follow my third piece of advice, not the second. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Rhivre Caldari Built to Last New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:53:00 - [20] I would assume that any information sharing is a two way street? You would disclose to the person you are loaning isk the same amount of information you expect from them? Its the old adage, trust isnt given, it is earned. I am an extremely open person, I give very open details about my personal life in game without disclosing who I am etc. Personal experience has taught me the very hard way that anyone, no matter who they are, or how much you trust them, can and will screw you over at some point, be that in a game or in real life. :) Its an experience thing I guess...someone who I owe isk to wouldnt be a bother too me, people like that are never the ones who have given me problems in RL, but as someone said, there are plenty of others who have gone to extreme lengths for much smaller reasons.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 22:02:00 - [21] Rhivere, you're not grasping the concept of a two-way street. Lets try an example. If you want me to put my trust in you and give you 50 billion ISK for a business venture, on top of the normal business plan, share intent, etc....I want to know what your name is, where you live, what you do for a living, your phone number....and we'll talk in real life. If you want me to trust you with 50 billion ISK, but you're not willing to trust me with your real name....then you're probably not trustworthy. If you don't like how I do business, that's OK! IT IS OK! You're welcome to business elsewhere. Like I said; I'm sharing how I secure my ISK in Eve and keep myself making ISK when I invest. You're welcome to do it anyway you want. Mine works. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Rhivre Caldari Built to Last New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.08.29 22:07:00 - [22] Edited by: Rhivre on 29/08/2009 22:08:56 No, I understand fully :) However, you are welcome to speak to me irl (although I use skype, not telephones)...but, if the number is "withheld" on the call, there better be a good reason for it ^^ I have my bank managers number, and can get his address, I would not expect any less from pixel loans in a game. I fully understand psychological mind messing..do not think I do not..but hell, half the people I have contact with in any mmo have my contact details, it is no more of a psychological mind game than "I know your email address"...because, of course, you can verify that I live at any address that I give you?...just theoretically of course
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 22:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Rhivre because, of course, you can verify that I live at any address that I give you? Absolutely. And a lot more things. :) -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Fraps Setenta Corp Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.08.30 01:03:00 - [24] can we play out your example? so lets say I contact you and I have a fantastic business opurtunity for you. for say 30billion isk, I can guarantee a full return on your investment plus 25% in a matter of 6 months. you ask for personal details and I say sure, my name is joe blow ( just an example name here) I live in the great state of oh say california. and my number is 555-555-5555. we have a chat over the phone. everything is handy dandy and then in six months I act like i have no idea who you are. now granted you know where I live, you have a phone number and you have a name. unless your trying to say that you would make some one sign an out of game contract for labor. since it obvioulsy can't be a contract for isk as niether of us actually own the isk. I can't see what your recourse would be. you can't go to small claims as you haven't actually lost any property. and any form of intimidation would be ment with a restraining order and lawenforcement. like I said I agree with the notion that you are less likely to be scammed by some one that you have had personal contact with but I do not see how your plan is even remotely safe from a well thought out scam. heck look at BoB, those guys had personal contact with that haragoth guy at BBQs and what not and he still bent them right over. Originally by: Rohann /emote pokes woody and moons him I R NEKID SEE!?!?!?!?!
KaarBaak Minmatar Squirrel Team	Posted - 2009.08.30 01:25:00 - [25] Funny. When I read the OP, my take on the situation was the opposite of what everyone seems to think. I thought the OP meant that he would only loan money to people he already knows and has a relationship with. Not that he would offer money to strangers only if they agree to 'get to know/be known' by the OP. My interpretation made sense. If the OP meant the latter than I definitely see the 'creepy' aspects. KB Based on the OPs responses, it seems he is creepy. KB Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.30 01:56:00 - [26] Fraps, the situation you describe is nothing like what I've been trying to explain. If you want 30 billion ISK from me, and our conversations and your plans make me comfortable with investing in you, then I'm going to ask you to volunteer a bit of information. When I funded IRON's capital ship program, I asked the owner to e-mail me the details. From his e-mail and information to be gathered therein, I learned his name, address, where his parents lived, where he went to school, what he did professionally, what his favorite soda was, and through personal resources, found out a bit more information than that. Our last conversation before me loaning him ISK was basically, "This is what I know about you. Are you comfortable with me investing with you given what I know?" That's the moment of truth. Someone with devious plans has to do a serious gut check. Someone without devious plans has no cause for concern. KaarBaak, I must reiterate: I don't really care what you think. I've amassed vast sums of ISK, and no one has ever scammed me out of an investment. It works, and its the only way to secure an investment. I don't need you or anyone else to be comfortable with what works if it does. If you think that I'm creepy...don't ask me for ISK; its that easy. :) But if you want to acquire significant financial backing, I don't think that you should expect to stay a faceless, anonymous avatar in Eve. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.30 02:04:00 - [27] Besides; stop getting caught up on a single pixel of an entire picture. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Raser Moonstrider Deep Core Crusaders	Posted - 2009.08.30 03:05:00 - [28] Well, thanks for the advice. Up until you got replies, it was a pretty good break from everything else that's getting post on this section. Too bad people don't seem to care about the main point of your post anymore...
Fraps Setenta Corp Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.08.30 10:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Curzon Dax Fraps, the situation you describe is nothing like what I've been trying to explain. If you want 30 billion ISK from me, and our conversations and your plans make me comfortable with investing in you, then I'm going to ask you to volunteer a bit of information. When I funded IRON's capital ship program, I asked the owner to e-mail me the details. From his e-mail and information to be gathered therein, I learned his name, address, where his parents lived, where he went to school, what he did professionally, what his favorite soda was, and through personal resources, found out a bit more information than that. Our last conversation before me loaning him ISK was basically, "This is what I know about you. Are you comfortable with me investing with you given what I know?" That's the moment of truth. Someone with devious plans has to do a serious gut check. Someone without devious plans has no cause for concern. . I agree with everything you say right up until you start talking about addition personal information and giving some sort of ultimatum to weed out a scam. "this is what I know about you, do you still want my moneyö to me thatÆs screams some sort of loan shark mentality. I know who your parents are? what is that going accomplish? Are you going to tell my mommy that I stole your ISK? Are you going to break their legs if I don't pay? What gut check would this enforce to someone who knows there is nothing in the real world you can do to reclaim your ISK? I'll reiterate this; I think the idea of personal communication with some you are going to invest with is a great idea. I don't believe it is a sure fire way to prevent scamming, I think it is an ideal step to give you a better picture of the person you are dealing with. ItÆs the moment you use the phrase " I like them to know in the back of their head that I can reach out and touch them" now if you are just suggesting you could call and complain, then fine. But the tone I get, and again this could be where the problem is, is that you intend to threaten in some manner the person who is now defaulted on your loan. That idea doesn't work period. I understand you may have used this technique on some people in IRON, but really I can't get my head around anyone who would take you seriously in trying to collect out of game. Realistically, if you want to make your point or lesson clear. Then lets here some details as to what information you would collect with your research. And what that would do for you in the event that someone was at a point of deciding whether or not to pay you back? Lastly and this is unrelated to the above, but when you flaunt this trillion ISK number as some massive accomplishment, how does that diminish the guy who make several billion ISK? You said yourself you no longer have the bulk of your wealth but that you are established enough as it is to not have to worry about ISK. That guy who makes a few billion a month is in the same boat. If he or she has enough money to play the game however they want then they have accomplished the same thing you have. Originally by: Rohann /emote pokes woody and moons him I R NEKID SEE!?!?!?!?!
Fraps Setenta Corp Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.08.30 10:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Raser Moonstrider Well, thanks for the advice. Up until you got replies, it was a pretty good break from everything else that's getting post on this section. Too bad people don't seem to care about the main point of your post anymore... Lesson one and three are pretty obvious, but I think it is appreciated by many. ItÆs that middle one that gives an alternate security method to an investment that is both interesting and questionable. ThatÆs why it is the focus of the replies. To me as it may be to others it reeks of a massively inflated ego and a gross overconfidence. Depending on how he explains it, maybe the ego and confidence are well deserved. Or maybe heÆs just blowing smoke up everyoneÆs arse. Originally by: Rohann /emote pokes woody and moons him I R NEKID SEE!?!?!?!?!

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