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Dhan
Resurrection
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Posted - 2009.09.05 02:05:00 -
[121]
I personally don't care much about Eve, so I wouldn't do it.
But understand cause and effect. If someone really cares about something, let him be. Bother someone who doesn't care about it. That's the reasonable thing to do.
Originally by: Paul Clavet In other words, you are willing to back up your rage at something that happened in a video game with felonious assault?
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The Punished
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Posted - 2009.09.05 02:05:00 -
[122]
Dhan, let me know after you have been out of high school for a few years, let me know how, where your hot temper, bad attitude gets you. I've been there bro, and now I know if someone ***** with you **** em back but other then that keep to yourself. Or your headed for a world of hurt. Dead, hurt or worse... Prison. For all tense purposes, getting robbed of your ISK is not you getting ******. Also not worth your own life. You never know who you are dealing with. Imagine saying this to another inmate... named Bubba, I'm in here because some stole my internet space ship money.. and I got that ****er good... What do you think Bubba is going to say, go hang out with your own kind over there the Minmatars.. Nah man, Bubba is gonna say you got a pretty mouth. Being a nerd rager won't help much here.
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Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.05 02:21:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Paul Clavet on 05/09/2009 02:22:59
Originally by: Dhan I personally don't care much about Eve, so I wouldn't do it.
But understand cause and effect. If someone really cares about something, let him be. Bother someone who doesn't care about it. That's the reasonable thing to do.
People in a civilized society should never accept someone attacking them physically.
I don't accept it, and I've armed myself with the means to end anyone's attempt to use anything but words to convince me to comply.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but if ever attempts to hurt me because I offended their e-honor or took their money in a spaceship game where that is allowed and encouraged, I will shoot them repeatedly until they stop trying to hurt me. There is the cause and the effect, and I understand it perfectly.
There are two ways of dealing with people: reason and force. If you accept that force is in any context other than self-defense an acceptable way of dealing with your problems, then you are a thug.
If you suggest that I should not do certain allowed actions in a video game because someone could try to hurt me in RL and it's better that I don't make them mad, then you are a sheep. Baaaaa.
Use and threat of force in a video game: Hilarious and fun, as long as you don't take yourself seriously.
Use and threat of force in real life: Unacceptable.
And The Punished.... Good God, man. Line breaks and spell check are your friend. ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
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Dhan
Resurrection
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Posted - 2009.09.05 02:25:00 -
[124]
Paul, if you spoke to someone on the phone, he told you that he'll loan you isk, but he'll hurt you in real life if you don't return it.
Would you borrow the isk?
What about if you had no intention of returning it.
Originally by: Paul Clavet
...
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Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.05 02:32:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Paul Clavet on 05/09/2009 02:33:35
Originally by: Dhan Paul, if you spoke to someone on the phone, he told you that he'll loan you isk, but he'll hurt you in real life if you don't return it.
Would you borrow the isk?
What about if you had no intention of returning it.
I would not borrow the money from someone threatening real-life harm for failure to repay. I am not as dumb as I look.
However, you miss the point: In most western systems of justice, it is against the law to threaten someone with physical harm unless it is in the course of defending yourself from their attempt to hurt you.
For enforcing compliance with business agreements, most countries have tort law, which allows you to take the person who isn't holding up their end. The court decides who is right, and THAT decision is enforced physically if need be.
Even if it was "I will loan you this ISK, but if you fail to repay it I will take you to court and have them garnish it from your wages" they would fail hilariously, because they lack standing, meaning that since the ISK wasn't theirs to begin with (it's the intellectual property of CCP, read your TOS, an actual contract), they have no claim to it.
All in-game actions not prohibited by the TOS you agreed to when you logged on are allowed. Period. Threatening other players with real-life harm is one of the things that is not permitted.
And it's wrong. So don't do it. And don't sit back and take it when someone does it to you. ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
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Dhan
Resurrection
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Posted - 2009.09.05 02:42:00 -
[126]
Good, that's reasonable.
But a minority of players would borrow the isk, and most would make sure to return it.
It works so well, that there doesn't even have to be a verbal threat. Simply knowing that someone has your personal details, is enough for most people to not mess around. And we don't know if the OP would actually cause physical harm, and neither does the one who takes the loan.
The OP's described method for making an unsecured loan works better than any other in the game.
Originally by: Paul Clavet
I would not borrow the money from someone threatening real-life harm for failure to repay. I am not as dumb as I look.
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Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.05 02:53:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Dhan Good, that's reasonable.
But a minority of players would borrow the isk, and most would make sure to return it.
It works so well, that there doesn't even have to be a verbal threat. Simply knowing that someone has your personal details, is enough for most people to not mess around. And we don't know if the OP would actually cause physical harm, and neither does the one who takes the loan.
The OP's described method for making an unsecured loan works better than any other in the game.
Thanks for being civil. Some in this thread are not.
Sure, we don't know what his actual actions would be, but he was clear that the knowledge of something bad potentially happening was among the motivations of his, er, clients.
"Hey, everybody! Let me tell you how I was successful at this internet spaceship game: I made sure that I had contact information on anyone I gave a loan to, and before giving them the loan, well... I didn't SAY I would call their employer and claim that I caught them shoplifting midget ****, or that I would come to their house and break their car windshield... But I made sure they knew that I had the capability of doing that if I wanted to. For some reason, none of them ever backed out of their imaginary loans!" ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.05 14:37:00 -
[128]
*laughing* Paul, that's kind of funny, and actually made me smile.
I've never threatened anyone in real life, nor would I encourage anyone else to do so. I do know a bit about psychology though. Outside of a test environment, a few rules of thumb in Eve are pretty safe to follow.
-If someone is willing to trust you with a significant portion of their in-game wealth wealth, they are trustworthy in return. There are various tests that I use for this one. Dishonest people generally have a problem trusting other people. IE, a scammer isn't going to hand over 90% of their networth to someone.
-If you want to borrow ridiculous sums of ISK with a purported intent to do something big with it, and then express reluctance to part with personal details...there is probably malicious intent involved.
Here's a fun conversation:
Curzon: Ok, I'm down with the principle idea of what you're talking about, and I think 100 billion is pretty reasonable. Investee: Cool, you want to do it? Curzon: We still need to flesh out a few details about RoI and alliance involvement; can I give you a call? I'd rather talk a 10 minute conversation than have to type it out over 30 minutes. Investee: We can use Eve voice if you want. Curzon: Every time I'm on Eve voice, I get crackles and break ups so badly that I've abandoned trying to use it. Got a phone? Investee: I'd rather not, I'd like to keep it in game.
*WARNING BELLS GO OFF*
Other directing question samples:
-I'd feel dumb calling you Investee on the phone; my name is Dan; yours? -I've got a friend named ______ who lives in <random state>. You aren't him are you? *laughing* -Ah...where are you from then? <state, possibly city answer> -Cool, do you know where <city in their state> is? I <insert activity> there a couple of times. Where are you in relation? Etc. -Do you have a written proposal for your business plan? I'll forget most of this by next week and would like to have it on hand. Can you e-mail me a copy of it for my records?
Its not like I demand peoples' personal information - it just comes up over the course of a conversation, and I'm very carefully monitoring and directing a seemingly friendly conversation.
By the end of the conversation above, I know your name, your phone number, your city and state at least, a few details about you, your e-mail address (and subsequently ISP), and I can turn around and do a bit of research from there.
If at any point during this conversation, something doesn't ring true to me, or there's hesitation, or I sense deception, the game is over. If my subsequent research (and the resources I have are interesting), turns up any lies, the game is over.
I hope that puts my personal strategy in a replicable light. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To |
Galal Dax
The Panopticon
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Posted - 2009.09.05 16:12:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
Here's a fun conversation:
Curzon: Ok, I'm down with the principle idea of what you're talking about, and I think 100 billion is pretty reasonable. Investee: Cool, you want to do it? Curzon: We still need to flesh out a few details about RoI and alliance involvement; can I give you a call? I'd rather talk a 10 minute conversation than have to type it out over 30 minutes. Investee: We can use Eve voice if you want. Curzon: Every time I'm on Eve voice, I get crackles and break ups so badly that I've abandoned trying to use it. Got a phone? Investee: I'd rather not, I'd like to keep it in game.
*WARNING BELLS GO OFF*
You continue to insist you have a right to call someone on the phone - there is no reason for this.
You can use Eve Voice or Vent.
I don't care how long you were here before, this is just stupid, and I would advise no one to deal with you.
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.05 16:21:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Galal Dax
I don't care how long you were here before, this is just stupid, and I would advise no one to deal with you.
That's the beauty of Eve; you're entitled to your opinion and to call names, and we're both entitled to do things how we want anyway. :) My advice isn't for trolls, its for the semi-wealthy to help turn their riches into more riches. None of this applies to you anyway, so why are you trolling? :) -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To |
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brutoid
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.05 16:33:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Curzon Dax Other directing question samples:
-I'd feel dumb calling you Investee on the phone; my name is Dan; yours? -I've got a friend named ______ who lives in <random state>. You aren't him are you? *laughing* -Ah...where are you from then? <state, possibly city answer> -Cool, do you know where <city in their state> is? I <insert activity> there a couple of times. Where are you in relation? Etc. -Do you have a written proposal for your business plan? I'll forget most of this by next week and would like to have it on hand. Can you e-mail me a copy of it for my records?
Its not like I demand peoples' personal information - it just comes up over the course of a conversation, and I'm very carefully monitoring and directing a seemingly friendly conversation.
By the end of the conversation above, I know your name, your phone number, your city and state at least, a few details about you, your e-mail address (and subsequently ISP), and I can turn around and do a bit of research from there.
If at any point during this conversation, something doesn't ring true to me, or there's hesitation, or I sense deception, the game is over. If my subsequent research (and the resources I have are interesting), turns up any lies, the game is over.
I hope that puts my personal strategy in a replicable light.
No, no it doesn't.
You fail to be honest even in your example. Why would you try and extract the 'investees' personal information via such obvious leading questions rather than being upfront and honest with them and saying "I want your personal information in exchange for doing business with you are you happy about that"?
You elude that you want some form of honesty from a potential investor and then post an example of the way you'd not be honest yourself! Keep digging pal.
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Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.05 17:24:00 -
[132]
You've backpedaled significantly from your previous posts, Curzon. What happened to this?
Quote: Our last conversation before me loaning him ISK was basically, "This is what I know about you. Are you comfortable with me investing with you given what I know?" That's the moment of truth. Someone with devious plans has to do a serious gut check. Someone without devious plans has no cause for concern.
As predicted, you still have not answered the question. What would someone with devious plans have to be concerned about? ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.05 18:19:00 -
[133]
Paul, those were different conversations. With different people. In different years.
Anyway; not planning on talking about my personal investments anymore - you guys are welcome to armchair general and theorize all you like, but none of it changes one irrefutable fact:
I have a formula for success. It has yet to fail me. I've grown significantly richer over the years, as have other people because of my implementation of it.
That formula is worthy of consideration for others looking to invest. --------------------- And that's all I was saying in the first place. :)
*bows out of the trolling* -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To |
Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.09.05 18:22:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Curzon Dax Paul, those were different conversations. With different people. In different years.
Anyway; not planning on talking about my personal investments anymore - you guys are welcome to armchair general and theorize all you like, but none of it changes one irrefutable fact:
I have a formula for success. It has yet to fail me. I've grown significantly richer over the years, as have other people because of my implementation of it.
That formula is worthy of consideration for others looking to invest. --------------------- And that's all I was saying in the first place. :)
*bows out of the trolling*
Just posting to say I loved ur "ISK-ISK baby"-song
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Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.05 18:33:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Curzon Dax Paul, those were different conversations. With different people. In different years.
Anyway; not planning on talking about my personal investments anymore - you guys are welcome to armchair general and theorize all you like, but none of it changes one irrefutable fact:
I have a formula for success. It has yet to fail me. I've grown significantly richer over the years, as have other people because of my implementation of it.
That formula is worthy of consideration for others looking to invest. --------------------- And that's all I was saying in the first place. :)
*bows out of the trolling*
I'm glad that your formula worked for you, but if you win a game through RL intimidation and blackmail, then did you really win? ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.09.05 19:03:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 05/09/2009 19:03:19
Originally by: Curzon Dax
That formula is worthy of consideration for others looking to invest. --------------------- And that's all I was saying in the first place. :)
*bows out of the trolling*
Good - you should have taken my advice to bow out when i gave it to you.
Instead you ignore me and Ive watched you have digging yourself an even bigger hole, backtracking on your previous comments (contradicting yourself in several places in your rush to save face) and brushing off pertinent and respectfully posed questions as "trolling"
Even my advice to bow out of this thread before you incriminated yourself further (advice you have now sensibly taken) was regarded as "Trolling" as well.
There are perhaps 5 or 6 true troll posts in this entire thread. Dont confuse people taking you up on elements of your "advice" (particularly when such advice incites illegal behavior) and disagreeing with it as "trolling"
If you dont want people to respond to your posts - dont post. Stick to making funny songs. Your OP boils down to
1) FIND A NICHE IN THE MARKET (well duh) 2) SECURE YOUR INVESTMENT THROUGH SUBTERFUGE AND ILLEGAL INTIMIDATION (no thanks its just a game) 3) INVEST IN YOURSELF (innane comment)
--> It has precisly ZERO value to someone wanting to make isk.
It was just a posturing - self aggrandising post which has ended up severly damaging your standing as a member of the community.
(o)
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.05 19:07:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Le Skunk I hate Curzon Dax
Quite an amazing post there, really! So full of presumptions and believing that you somehow speak on behalf of the entire Eve community in lowering some fictional score I have with the community.
You are a true troll; I grant you +1 skill to your trolling skill. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.09.05 19:18:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 05/09/2009 19:18:04
Originally by: Curzon Dax
Originally by: Le Skunk I hate Curzon Dax
Quite an amazing post there, really! So full of presumptions and believing that you somehow speak on behalf of the entire Eve community in lowering some fictional score I have with the community.
You are a true troll; I grant you +1 skill to your trolling skill.
Take some time to reread the post. And mull over it instead of instantly screaming TROLL TROLL TROLL
Take some time to reread all the posts from other posters expressing disdain for your words - and why they have taken the time to respond to you.
Think why this is.
Think
SKUNK
(o)
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flakeys
Vanguard Frontiers Slightly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.09.05 19:35:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
Originally by: Juno Imaginos When you pirate and blow up my ship, that's an in-game mechanic; congratulations.
When you approach me and ask to borrow 50 billion ISK for a couple of months, that is not an in-game mechanic. That is a personal transaction, to be handled via a means that the in-game system cannot cater to.
There is no difference there.Both will make the penalty : loosing isk.One is a small loss the other a big one but still the only penalty is loosing isk. Both are ingame losses to ingame people wich hurt you ingame.HE asks you INGAME to borrow INGAME currency for some INGAME activity.Then you have an INGAME chat and if you agree you transfer isk INGAME.
YOU then drag reall life in saying hey my currency is worth so much to me i will only loan it if i know who/where/why you are in reall life.
You're view is: if others don't want to use my method then fine they don't need to loan from me.My view is if i don't trust them enough to loan them isk and no ingame measures can guarantee a safe investment i don't.Do you SEE the difference in this approach? In the past weeks i have loaned between 1 bille to 10 bille to different individuals.Half without collateral others with half or full.There are times when i don't invest in others unless i have a 100% security.It all depends on how i feel about trusting the person but it would never ever come to my mind to even ask someone for his personal information. I'd even say it better , there was someone asking for a loan on the MD forums a few weeks back and after contacting him for a little chat he send me his reall life phone number to convince me to hand a loan to him.This made me decide NOT to hand him the loan.After wich i send a mail and stated that he should never EVER give out rl information just like that.Two days later i found out he did it again.Idiot ...
Now i will quit my rambling because i will not expect you to see my viewpoint on this as i know i could never grasp you're own views on the point.To each their own idea's and principles.
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brutoid
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.05 19:39:00 -
[140]
Op reminds me of David Brent on so many levels. The 'advice', the singing and even the awkward backtracking is there! Just like Brent, i have a feeling Curzon actually doesn't see whats wrong!!
lool
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Tomoyuki
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Posted - 2009.09.05 22:30:00 -
[141]
Well I am not going to explain why your second point is wrong on so many levels considering that the last 15 or so posts explained it. I will though post a link to back up why I would not do it. nullnullNerd Rage[/url]
But I would like to know a few things that you did not explain or I did not see in all these posts.
1. What would you do if a guy did scam you? You have personal info congrats now what?
2. You seems to think that rl and this game is one in the same. Hence why you demand personal info for all that time and work you invested in the game. So how would you feel and what would you do if CCP decided to ban your account? (I am hoping you are aware that you do not own any of the pixels and TOS states that they can terminate your account for whatever reason that they choose.)
All mmo's and business's can do this since it is their property unless there is a separate contract that was setup between you and the company.
Congrats on coming back to Eve hopefully I can earn as much as you did. Can you also post any other tips for being a trader? (specifics if you don't mind)
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Xiu Zhang
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Posted - 2009.09.05 23:06:00 -
[142]
As Anne Widdecombe famously said about Michael Howard, Curzon has 'something of the night' about him
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Boink'urr
Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst
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Posted - 2009.09.06 06:48:00 -
[143]
Lol, quite a weird thread this.
Anyone in need of fake videogame investment money should never in their right mind provide ANY RL info to possible internet freakazoids ever.
You're out of your frigging mind if you do. FFS grow a brain.
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Samroski
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Posted - 2009.09.06 08:46:00 -
[144]
I must thank the OP for initiating this discussion and also for continuing to defend his position and expound on his tactics. This has greatly helped many (especially me) to decide where we stand on this issue.
Especially interesting is how he is prepared to lie to get RL information in order to establish the veracity of the investee!
I also want to appreciate the principles of the MD Elite (excuse the expression if it is not politically correct) in determining the authenticity of various IPOs/proposals. I have little understanding of these, but great efforts are made in auditing and API checks etc, but not RL info. Hats off to you guys for keeping RL out of an RPG.
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Aniel Zaar
Gallente Light of Orion
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Posted - 2009.09.06 09:44:00 -
[145]
Question to OP: will you loan money based on RL info alone? *-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones. |
apostrophee
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Posted - 2009.09.06 11:05:00 -
[146]
Yesterday I was on vent with a fleet, I mentioned my real name (which is Gloria).
This morning I found out my bank was empty, my navy raven was stolen, I had signed up to some gay sites (I am lesbian, no way I would do that), and I had also been knee capped and had some fingernails pulled. And had my car set on fire. And my pet rabbit was on the stove. In a pot. Of boiling water.
I recommend you donot give ur real life info out. Especially not to people. (give it to cats if you want, they don't care)
So yes, there you have it, proof the OP is actually ******.
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apostrophee
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Posted - 2009.09.06 11:32:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Tomoyuki Well I am not going to explain why your second point is wrong on so many levels considering that the last 15 or so posts explained it. I will though post a link to back up why I would not do it. nullnullNerd Rage[/url]
I hear ya buddy, I for one, am never going to cross a road again. look! people died.
I looked for a link to where eve players were murdered n stuff, but I couldn't find one, I think the OP is pretty good at hiding bodies. I mean, given there are 400 thowsand accounts, he must have killed 3 or so. S o lack of evidence just makes it more true.
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Steel Wraith
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Posted - 2009.09.06 11:59:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
Anyway; not planning on talking about my personal investments anymore - you guys are welcome to armchair general and theorize all you like, but none of it changes one irrefutable fact:
I have a formula for success. It has yet to fail me. I've grown significantly richer over the years, as have other people because of my implementation of it.
That formula is worthy of consideration for others looking to invest. --------------------- And that's all I was saying in the first place. :)
*bows out of the trolling*
No, I'd say you have a positive correlation between demanding/seeking rl info and not getting scammed rather than any "empirical proof" you spoke of earlier. I stand by my assertion that having personal info about your investee doesn't provide any real security against being scammed. The fact that you call anyone who disagrees with you a troll and/or too stupid to understand your argument only highlights the fact your judgment is clouded by pride and arrogance.
I know it's bad form to quote you and throw mud after you politely withdrew but, well, I hate internet tough guys.
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Foxy Rocket
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Posted - 2009.09.07 11:22:00 -
[149]
It does seem this topic got a little out of hand really.
I see that you have returned Curzon and you have stated you have amassed a giant fortune during the time you played this game. Congratulations of course.
Rather than appease the masses and shoot you down for claiming personal information from the people you deal / speak with. I would like to ask if you would be interested in assisting me with a few "on topic" queries. Such as:
I'm new to the business game, what would a potential investor look at when investing in a company.
Would the invester need to know the company is solid before making an investment.
Would the invester be willing to share ideas to help the company grow?
In your situation would you only invest in a company that has potential or is already making a profit?
I understand a business proposal would be needed to send to an investor, can you suggest a resource i can use to prepare a well thought out business proposal.
I need clarification on exit strategies, can you give a new player some guidance with this?
Phew, i know it's quite alot. And I did say I am quite new to the game. For me it's baby steps until I can play the game in the big time and invest ISK myself into other companies and players.
Would you be willing to pass along some of your ideas and experiences to someone who is very keen and willing to learn?
Thanks for your time Foxy Rocket |
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