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Is the Vargur really worth it?

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Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:30:00 - [1] So, I would like some idea from the mission runners regarding the Vargur.. how fast is it? I've just migrated to the joys of using an AC Maelstrom for mission running, so would it be that much better.. or better yet, is it worth the 1bil isk is comparision to the AC Maelstrom? I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.09.03 23:30:00 - [2] Simple and honest question. Simple and honest answer: No. The vargur is blowful.
Duries Kain	Posted - 2009.09.03 23:33:00 - [3] yes for angel missions nothing beats it tbh. only problem is the size of the ammo and how much cargo it takes up, however the cargo is enough for all the loot most times. a-type fit the vargur and it really shines and imho is one of the most fun ships to mission with.
Veebora Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.04 00:54:00 - [4] I really don't thing so.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.09.04 00:59:00 - [5] To elaborate a little. Since you already fly an AC maelstrom, you will find the vargur to not really be an upgrade. The vargur definitely is the worst marauder, and its definitely not worth the iskies to get one. Since I assume you are already running lvl 4s with no real problems, just stick with it. Pimp her out, and get your skills up real high. Then if you still want a vargur, i suppose no-one can stop you, and you will still want the pimp shield gear and gyros, so its not a waste.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.04 01:00:00 - [6] If you're using an AC Maelstrom, I'd say yes. If you're using an Arty Maelstrom, I'd say no. In either case it lets you salvage the mission on the go. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
NoNah	Posted - 2009.09.04 01:08:00 - [7] Originally by: Liang Nuren If you're using an AC Maelstrom, I'd say yes. If you're using an Arty Maelstrom, I'd say no. In either case it lets you salvage the mission on the go. -Liang Which is sort of like saying if you're using a Torp CNR the golem is worth it, if you're using a Cruise CNR it's not. Yes, the Vargur will have issues if you run Arties on it, gridwise. Yes, the Vargur is awesome if you use AC's on it. 65km falloff or whatever you get with barrage is insane, especially with the decent dps you do from start, and you cover 0-40km(which is all that matters in a marauder) quite well indeed. Besides, shouldn't you be off doing more civilized things than EVE, Liang? Parrots, commence! Postcount: 144212
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.04 01:13:00 - [8] Originally by: NoNah Which is sort of like saying if you're using a Torp CNR the golem is worth it, if you're using a Cruise CNR it's not. Not really. It's more like me saying that the Vargur is hands down better than any AC Maelstrom. It's not hands down better than any Arty Maelstrom. If he's using an AC Maelstrom, he should upgrade to a Vargur. If he's not, he may want to upgrade. (This isn't strictly true with the torp CNR, because IIRC it actually is unconditionally better than a cruise CNR). Quote: Besides, shouldn't you be off doing more civilized things than EVE, Liang? I couldn't resist annoying you. What can I say, you're so... invigorating... -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
NoNah	Posted - 2009.09.04 01:18:00 - [9] The torp CNR is pretty.... useless... these days. Since the last missile nerf there's just no point in trying. I had the feeling same was true for AC maelstroms. A cruise CNR can however compete with the Torp Golem, if you have alternate goals than isk/hour, such as missions or LP per hour. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 123892
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.04 01:31:00 - [10] Originally by: NoNah The torp CNR is pretty.... useless... these days. Since the last missile nerf there's just no point in trying. I had the feeling same was true for AC maelstroms. A cruise CNR can however compete with the Torp Golem, if you have alternate goals than isk/hour, such as missions or LP per hour. Hmmmm, a Torp CNR should be fit just about the same as it always has been. I don't know of any fitting problems that would really change it. So you must be pointing at the Golem's TP bonus when saying that? Dunno. At any rate, I can address the AC pest - I don't really like it. It always felt like I missed too often to make it really worth the hassle. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
NoNah	Posted - 2009.09.04 01:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NoNah The torp CNR is pretty.... useless... these days. Since the last missile nerf there's just no point in trying. I had the feeling same was true for AC maelstroms. A cruise CNR can however compete with the Torp Golem, if you have alternate goals than isk/hour, such as missions or LP per hour. Hmmmm, a Torp CNR should be fit just about the same as it always has been. I don't know of any fitting problems that would really change it. So you must be pointing at the Golem's TP bonus when saying that? Dunno. At any rate, I can address the AC pest - I don't really like it. It always felt like I missed too often to make it really worth the hassle. -Liang Fitting is the same, but with the new formula you WILL need multiple TP's on a CNR to compensate, and since the CNR can only really fit dual small pithiis there's little to no room for TP's, without wasting lows and even then you will simply never catch up. I used a CNR myself up until the day they changed the damageformula and had to abandon it. There's some bloke who did a more exestensive list on what works were and even some spreadsheet for it, just to confirm. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 296727
CAREBEARSTAR3 Polaris Lottery	Posted - 2009.09.04 01:56:00 - [12] How is the vargur "blowful"? It can do 800 dps (without drones) at 65km with tracking near medium turrets, while being able to easily tank any l4. The only problem with it imo is that it can't really switch damage type (joke for minmatar), and it consumes lots of ammo.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.04 02:01:00 - [13] Originally by: NoNah Fitting is the same, but with the new formula you WILL need multiple TP's on a CNR to compensate, and since the CNR can only really fit dual small pithiis there's little to no room for TP's, without wasting lows and even then you will simply never catch up. I used a CNR myself up until the day they changed the damageformula and had to abandon it. There's some bloke who did a more exestensive list on what works were and even some spreadsheet for it, just to confirm. 2x invluns + 2x pithi b-types + damage control should do just fine for tank. leaves room for 4 bcus and 2 tps
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.04 02:31:00 - [14] Originally by: CAREBEARSTAR3 How is the vargur "blowful"? It can do 800 dps (without drones) at 65km with tracking near medium turrets, while being able to easily tank any l4. The only problem with it imo is that it can't really switch damage type (joke for minmatar), and it consumes lots of ammo. Setup?
foobarx	Posted - 2009.09.04 03:02:00 - [15] The Vargur is actually quite good. It really shines against Angels. Don't fit it with Arty - you're just wasting your money. Fit autos and try to wait until the rats come within tractor range before you mow them down.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.04 03:38:00 - [16] Originally by: CAREBEARSTAR3 How is the vargur "blowful"? It can do 800 dps (without drones) at 65km with tracking near medium turrets, while being able to easily tank any l4. The only problem with it imo is that it can't really switch damage type (joke for minmatar), and it consumes lots of ammo. No, it really doesn't. Best case I can come up with: [Vargur, Vargur] Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Projectile Ambit Extension II Projectile Ambit Extension II Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Implants = [ Crystal Alpha - Omega, Ogdin's Eye Coordination Enhancer, Zor's Custom Nav Hyperlink, Pashan's, LX-2, ] This yields 843 [email protected], and about 340 DPS@65km (I didn't calculate it exactly - EFT shows 481 DPS but EFT doesn't take hit quality into account either). -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
CAREBEARSTAR3 Polaris Lottery	Posted - 2009.09.04 03:38:00 - [17] Highs: 800mm AC's Mids: 2x Tracking computer(tracking speed script), 3 hardeners, Cal Navy Large SB Lows: 4 RF Gyro's, 1 DCU (could do PDU or tracking enhancer) Rigs: Ambit extensions Faction mods aren't a big deal imo when you have a hull that's worth a bil isk.
CAREBEARSTAR3 Polaris Lottery	Posted - 2009.09.04 03:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: CAREBEARSTAR3 How is the vargur "blowful"? It can do 800 dps (without drones) at 65km with tracking near medium turrets, while being able to easily tank any l4. The only problem with it imo is that it can't really switch damage type (joke for minmatar), and it consumes lots of ammo. No, it really doesn't. Best case I can come up with: [Vargur, Vargur] Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Projectile Ambit Extension II Projectile Ambit Extension II Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Implants = [ Crystal Alpha - Omega, Ogdin's Eye Coordination Enhancer, Zor's Custom Nav Hyperlink, Pashan's, LX-2, ] This yields 843 [email protected], and about 340 DPS@65km (I didn't calculate it exactly - EFT shows 481 DPS but EFT doesn't take hit quality into account either). -Liang btw can I see your falloff dps calculations?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.04 03:51:00 - [19] Originally by: CAREBEARSTAR3 btw can I see your falloff dps calculations? # Original Formula by Naughty Boy # ((1.0/2.0) ** ((((Transv/(RangeTracking))(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad)) 2) +((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff) 2)) # Original hit quality formula by KzIg (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333) # Expected damage per shot = normal damage * [min(chance to hit, 1%)3 + max(0,chance to hit - 1%)(0.99+chance to hit)/2] -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.09.04 03:52:00 - [20] The problem with the vargur, and why i continue to believe it to be 'blowful', is that fighting in falloff sucks, and it hasn't got the grid to mount arties. Sure, compared to a maelstrom it is 'slightly better', but compared to all the other hardcore mission ships its ****-poor. Compare it to the paladin for example. Compare it to the nightmare. Compare it to the golem or the CNR. It's not even a better proposition than a domi. And herein lies the problem. Sure, against angels its a great ship. But everything rocks against angels, since they have a tendency of sitting so close you can load up high damage ammo, and moving so slowly as to not make tracking an issue. How about a vargur shooting at something 50km away, like many NPCs do ? You'll be doing like 400 dps. That sucks. How about for those missions where the NPCs start or spawn 100km+ away ? They knock you mission completion time out the window, and you can't even refit to 1400s. Thats why the vargur sucks.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.04 03:53:00 - [21] Quick reference, optimal + falloff = 38.6% of EFT DPS. Optimal = 102% of EFT DPS.
FT Diomedes Gallente Factio Paucorum	Posted - 2009.09.04 04:03:00 - [22] I find the Vargur to be worth it, even when fitting artillery. With RF 1200mms or some 1200mm Scouts, it only takes one faction PDU to fit everything else you could want on the ship along with the guns. I use ACs against Angels, but artillery against most others. ...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Newbie Ned Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.04 05:11:00 - [23] I was in the OPs position of being unsure but made the change to a Vargur. I found it way better than a Maelstrom - falloff bonus really makes a difference, it is significantly faster and you can salvage as you go. 800 ACs ofc!
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.09.04 05:43:00 - [24] Well i guess some people won't be told. I can't stop you using your vargurs, and I guess someone's buying them, since someone#'s still making them. But seriously, the vargur is loooooooow on the list of high end mission ships for a good reason. It really really does lack the class of the proper mission running platforms. I don't know how to put it more succinctly. I know it a bit elitist, but really, so many other things are better for mission running. The vargur is probably like 9th :S
Tyler Lowe DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2009.09.04 06:10:00 - [25] I've flown the Vargur, the Kronos and the Golem. The short version is that the ship is "meh". It's meant for use with auto cannon, but it falls a bit short when using them, so it's better fit with artillery. You are going to run into some grid issues there, but nothing that cannot be fixed. The main question is not whether or not the Vargur is the best Matar ship for running missions, but rather whether or not it is worth 1+ billion ISK, and even more to the point, whether or not it stacks up against the competition. I say it does not. The Kronos is marginally better, and the Golem is just flat out superior in every regard. I'm sure the Vargur could be made somewhat better with a flashy deadspace fit, but to be frank, tanking is not the problem, it's DPS at all mission ranges. Evemail me or convo me in game if you want more details. This is my main. I'm pretty much never logged in as anything else.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2009.09.04 10:54:00 - [26] Republic Tempest is about as good as a Maelstrom, but the Vargur is trying to fight in falloff which really, really hurts. Tracking bonus is identical to that of the Machariel, IIRC, and nowadays the Mach is cheaper, faster, and a good bit more difficult to jam. If you want to be a carebear get yourself a Nightmare or Paladin... or I guess you could go golem and mission anywhere. Alas, the poor Paladin's web bonus got rendered 100% totally useless so the vargur even has more useful bonuses in that situation.
Tanith YarnDemon	Posted - 2009.09.04 11:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Well i guess some people won't be told. I can't stop you using your vargurs, and I guess someone's buying them, since someone#'s still making them. But seriously, the vargur is loooooooow on the list of high end mission ships for a good reason. It really really does lack the class of the proper mission running platforms. I don't know how to put it more succinctly. I know it a bit elitist, but really, so many other things are better for mission running. The vargur is probably like 9th :S Honestly in terms of Marauders and isk/h: Paladin > Golem > Vargur > Kronos Mainly because the kronos is the only boat that can't use short range guns viably. As for faction BS, I can see the CNR and nightmare standing out - since they get noticable advantages compared to the other nonfaction. That's it however. As for non-faction t1, domi and raven are the only ones really standing out, both of which would at best par with any of the marauders in isk/h and most likely fall behind. Amarr boats are all fine, but rely on picking missions and are all inferior to nightmare and paladin for obvious reasons. This is presuming one and only one boat is used, wether they get to choose missions or not. The marauder comparisson relies on them being able to cherrypick. That said, I have no idea what the remaining ships you refer to are.
Forge Lag Jita Lag Preservation Fund	Posted - 2009.09.04 11:28:00 - [28] I bet it is better than Tempest and that about sums the praise sung in this thread. What is unclear about BS sized projectiles in falloff without real DPS bonus vs damage bonused lasers or torps? Rats will not die from exhaustion because you chase them oh so much faster.
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.04 11:58:00 - [29] 67k Or is it 57km Whatever Falloff with Barrage Speaks for itself, and Angels like to come Close anyways - Emperor
vr0p Gallente Eastern Bleak Reconnaissance and Support	Posted - 2009.09.04 12:20:00 - [30] I've just been playing with a Vargur for the past week, just in a t2 fit. It has annihilated every mission I've used it on so far, in about half the time that it would have taken my other ships (I've tried Armageddons, Abaddons, Tempests, and Maelstroms). Enemies Abound p5 I had to sit and wait for a minute or two between spawns, which was a first for me ;-P The tracking bonus is really cool on targets that orbit close. I've been able to pop frigates that orbit up to ~400km transversal. Cruisers don't stand a chance, those pesky "Sansha Loyal" and "Elder Blood" type cruisers just melt now. So, for someone like me who has t2 AC trained, but is not about to go train up t2 pulse anytime soon for a Paladin, the Vargur is really fun and awesome.

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