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Petition to Stop ISK Farmers Ninja Salvaging/Looting

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Linden Dixon Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:24:00 - [1] Edited by: Linden Dixon on 04/09/2009 07:32:49 Please reply to this post if you would like CCP to make the following changes to the rules to help get rid of Chinese ISK farmers exploiting the game: - Trial accounts cannot salvage other people's wrecks - Salvaging someone else's wreck counts as theft and a criminal activity - If someone warps into your Mission, CONCORD will not intervene if you take aggressive action against that person. They do not have the same rights. I am in Irjunen system at the moment in Caldari space. At the moment more than 20% of the 72 people in system are ISK farmers. - They are all just on in Chinese prime-time. - They are all on trial accounts - They are all the Acura race - They are all in NPC corps - They are all flying Kestrels - They are all ninja salvaging and loot stealing from people's missions It is completely ridiculous, some people are having 5+ different farmers warping into their mission. I warped to the sun and there were 4 Kestrels sat there waiting out their aggression timer. Here is a list of the people that fit the criteria: (means that person was still in system when I made the list). Angeliraybeal Armandann* Arronash Backaqa* CarmellGibbons* Cathrynoone* ChrysWebster Flying CC* Jackaqa* Kristopanger* Leticialeist* Patricienzi* Rickeilvernail* Sophhatjen ShellRubin* SSamuellll2* We are not against ninja salvaging, but we are against people abusing the system to farm ISK. I can haz missilz?
HartzIV Kind	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:29:00 - [2] +1 salvaging should be concidered theft.
Quantum Jones	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:31:00 - [3] Its a good idea, however, I do quite alot of salvaging, and I wonder if the changes you are proposing would have a detrimal effect on my salvaging operation. However, that farmers are warping into mission areas is unacceptable. I agree with "- If someone warps into your Mission, CONCORD will not intervene if you take aggressive action against that person. They do not have the same rights. "
brianmctear	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:33:00 - [4] sounds like good rules to me.....i do most of my missions in irjunen also,..and yes getting fed up with the mission salvagers myself...i paid cash and put in the month's of training up skills do do level 4 missions.....not to have a 09 player frig fly in and salvage all the good battleship wrecks.
FU22 The Furry Toast	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Linden Dixon - If someone warps into your Mission, CONCORD will not intervene if you take aggressive action against that person. They do not have the same rights. I fully endorse this service and/or product. Will make mission invasions all that easier
Reine Jacotey	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:42:00 - [6] Edited by: Reine Jacotey on 04/09/2009 07:42:40 Although I agree with having ninja salvaging as part of the game, the main concern for my is a small number of isk farmers using a large number of trial accounts to farm isk this way. The problem apparently stems from salvaging being able to be trained on trial accounts (and to lesser extent the ability to use scan probes on trial accounts). As I understand the New Player Experience Epic Mission arc utilizes salvaging, and this would have to be reworked, I think making salvaging (and possibly scanning) skills limited to paying accounts may be a necessary change.
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:50:00 - [7] This is totally bass-ackwards. ISK farmers who create a real-life income based on in-game earnings will always seek to maximize profit over fun. Random actual players will try to do fun stuff, even if that isn't profit-maximizing behavior. Ninja salvaging is fun, but it is not particularly profitable. Guess which group is actually doing it. If you want changes to ninja salvaging, ask for them and get shot down, don't try to hide behind a known issue (ISK farmers and CCP's hate of them) because if you can't even fool other players you certainly aren't going to fool the devs.
Lana's Alt Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.04 07:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame This is totally bass-ackwards. ISK farmers who create a real-life income based on in-game earnings will always seek to maximize profit over fun. Random actual players will try to do fun stuff, even if that isn't profit-maximizing behavior. Ninja salvaging is fun, but it is not particularly profitable. Guess which group is actually doing it. If you want changes to ninja salvaging, ask for them and get shot down, don't try to hide behind a known issue (ISK farmers and CCP's hate of them) because if you can't even fool other players you certainly aren't going to fool the devs.

CCP WeatherMan	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:00:00 - [9] Moved to Features and Ideas. Weatherman Community Representative CCP Games Contact us

Linden Dixon Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame This is totally bass-ackwards. ISK farmers who create a real-life income based on in-game earnings will always seek to maximize profit over fun. Random actual players will try to do fun stuff, even if that isn't profit-maximizing behaviour. Ninja salvaging is fun, but it is not particularly profitable. Guess which group is actually doing it. If you want changes to ninja salvaging, ask for them and get shot down, don't try to hide behind a known issue (ISK farmers and CCP's hate of them) because if you can't even fool other players you certainly aren't going to fool the devs. The problem for the ISK farmers was that their long standing accounts were easily identifiable and dealt with. Salvaging and looting on a trial account was their way around this. These same people are doing it for 10+ hours a day, every single day. This is not the behaviour of someone playing the game for fun. Some loot and salvage is worth a lot of ISK. They also only target you when you're running certain missions, as they know which ones are the most profitable. They could easily make 50mill+ an hour, times that by a 10 hour work day, and 20 employees and you have yourself an ISK farming business. I can haz missilz?
Zar Terra MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame This is totally bass-ackwards. ISK farmers who create a real-life income based on in-game earnings will always seek to maximize profit over fun. Random actual players will try to do fun stuff, even if that isn't profit-maximizing behavior. Ninja salvaging is fun, but it is not particularly profitable. Guess which group is actually doing it. If you want changes to ninja salvaging, ask for them and get shot down, don't try to hide behind a known issue (ISK farmers and CCP's hate of them) because if you can't even fool other players you certainly aren't going to fool the devs. QFT -= NightShifter =- Originally by: Dirk Magnum On the one hand I love a metaphorical trainwreck but come on. This is sort of like crashing a plane on top of a train that's already wrecked.
ServantOfMask Minmatar Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:15:00 - [12] Edited by: ServantOfMask on 04/09/2009 08:16:39 ok FIXED! solutions: 1) dont play during chinese prime 2) find a different system to mission in 3) salvage faster than they do 4) SHOOT THEM when they steal actual loot now for the flames: 5) cry me more delicious tears 6) learn to recognize farmers (fdgasd2342 for example) 7) did i ask for more tears already? 8) what the fork are you doing running missions in empire when your elite pvp alliance is fighting for their space? 9) you should see a shrink to help you with your schizophrenia issues 10) hmmm your name fits into your list nicely... and you look a little achuran to me, if you can fly a Kestrel you MUST be an ISK farmer. lets ban this fool for bringing his tears to this limited audience! -whoops guess weatherman is gonna get lynched.. sorry dude, who needs a torch? "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:18:00 - [13] as if isk farmers would just play in their prime time. farmers play 24/7.
Linden Dixon Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:30:00 - [14] Originally by: ServantOfMask Edited by: ServantOfMask on 04/09/2009 08:16:39 ok FIXED! solutions: 1) dont play during chinese prime 2) find a different system to mission in 3) salvage faster than they do 4) SHOOT THEM when they steal actual loot now for the flames: 5) cry me more delicious tears 6) learn to recognize farmers (fdgasd2342 for example) 7) did i ask for more tears already? 8) what the fork are you doing running missions in empire when your elite pvp alliance is fighting for their space? 9) you should see a shrink to help you with your schizophrenia issues 10) hmmm your name fits into your list nicely... and you look a little achuran to me, if you can fly a Kestrel you MUST be an ISK farmer. lets ban this fool for bringing his tears to this limited audience! -whoops guess weatherman is gonna get lynched.. sorry dude, who needs a torch? 1) I'm also +8GMT 2) Farmers are in every system with high quality agents 3) To an extent, but Frigates are faster than Battleships, and they're set-up to salvage only. 4) You can usually only get 1-2 volleys off before they warp out, and then you can't dock for 15 minutes due to aggression 6) Identifying them is of no help 10) All of the farmers are on trial accounts Please comment constructively I can haz missilz?
ServantOfMask Minmatar Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:40:00 - [15] i did but you dont have the braincells to eve-search the topic first NOR to comprehend the solutions. please do everyone a favor and either : 1) search the forums for solutions before posting a whine 2) GO DIE IN A FIRE 3) find another system to mission in 4) kill them over and over again 5) maybe go look at star trek online, eve is too harsh a game for you "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Lana's Alt Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Linden Dixon 4) You can usually only get 1-2 volleys off before they warp out, and then you can't dock for 15 minutes due to aggression Umm.. no... If you don't know the aggression game mechanics then you are not qualified to discuss ways of preventing people from salvaging..
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.09.04 08:46:00 - [17] ok: Quote: - They are all just on in Chinese prime-time (01:00->10:00 EVE time). ISK Farmers work 23/7. They have Employees that take shifts. Quote: - They are all on trial accounts - They are all in NPC corps They are on trial accounts. Off course they are in NPC corporations! Quote: - They are all the Acura race It's the most popular race in eve. Quote: - They are all flying Kestrels - They are all ninja salvaging and loot stealing from people's missions kestrel is suitable ship for new players that want to participate in the ninja salvaging profession.
ServantOfMask Minmatar Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.09.04 09:23:00 - [18] don't bother trying to beat sense into the OP, i fear he is beyond saving... also his tears are tasty... might locator agent him on a slow day and have some fun in his missions, maybe steal some mission items and ransom them... who knows... "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Xenofarion Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.04 09:28:00 - [19] If this should really be true (although I doubt it), then make salvaging not trainable for trial accounts and shift the New Player Experience to a mission where you can use a "civilian Salvager", which can just be activated on this mission's wrecks. Problem solved - if you are still getting ninja-salvaged, it's probably no farmer -- those who can, do those who can't, complain
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.09.04 09:31:00 - [20] What you are seeing is young starting players who asked: What does one do for money? And got the answer: probe and salvage in a kestrel. There are still a lot of guides floating saying: pick achura which explains the race. Different people are on round the clock, but you only see the ones on during chinese time because that's when you're apparently on. Probing and salvaging are way too labor intensive for ISK farmers. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Reine Jacotey	Posted - 2009.09.04 10:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Washell Olivaw What you are seeing is young starting players who asked: What does one do for money? And got the answer: probe and salvage in a kestrel. There are still a lot of guides floating saying: pick achura which explains the race. Different people are on round the clock, but you only see the ones on during chinese time because that's when you're apparently on. Probing and salvaging are way too labor intensive for ISK farmers. You and the others above who are advancing a similar argument are speaking from assumptions rather than experiencing the current (and very different) state of affairs that have come to pass in the past week or so. In the past ninja salvagers were an occasional but rare occurrence. But now, in certain systems, practically every mission is hit by ninja salvagers (at least in my and my corpmates' experieces), and often not just one at a time, but 2-5 at a time. It is clearly being organized and run as an op... something that stretches credulity to believe that they are actually just a group of authentic new players. Dozens of players, as young as 2 or 3 days, and never (as in the case in the current situation we are discussing, not a single one) over 12 days just don't just spontaneously read the same guides, find each other, and work together to form a large-scale op. The efficiency of a truly new player to scan down the majority of mission runners in a heavy mission hub with dozens of active missions is also hard to believe as credible. What is being reported here is a genuine and very noticeable change in the scale and efficiency in operations of ninja salvagers in certain mission hubs. And that it is apparently being carried out exclusively by trial accounts raise certain flags to possible isk farming. Assumptions to the contrary, out of hand, and accusations of "whining" are neither productive nor called for.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.09.04 10:22:00 - [22] Then petition them for farming... and move out of the hub... or have those corpies you talk about salvage after you... Exploitation is not a forum issue... flagging them is not going to solve the problem, i can tell you... loosing a kestrel? not a big loss, and how can you be sure you are shooting a farmer and not a Suddenly Ninja baiter, BOOM! there goes your expencive MR ship... Changing game mechanincs is not the way to combat farming, they always adabt... CCP deals with farming, as Unholy Rage proved, it works... As for making salvaging not possible for trail, NO! I loved salvaging from day 1, and limiting new players even more? no! Quote: "I warped to the sun and there were 4 Kestrels sat there waiting out their aggression timer." Tell me exactly why you are advication aggresion flagging for salvagin, since they seem to allready be flag for loot stealing... Double flagging wont make it easier to kill them... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world
Linden Dixon Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.09.04 10:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Reine Jacotey Originally by: Washell Olivaw What you are seeing is young starting players who asked: What does one do for money? And got the answer: probe and salvage in a kestrel. There are still a lot of guides floating saying: pick achura which explains the race. Different people are on round the clock, but you only see the ones on during chinese time because that's when you're apparently on. Probing and salvaging are way too labor intensive for ISK farmers. You and the others above who are advancing a similar argument are speaking from assumptions rather than experiencing the current (and very different) state of affairs that have come to pass in the past week or so. In the past ninja salvagers were an occasional but rare occurrence. But now, in certain systems, practically every mission is hit by ninja salvagers (at least in my and my corpmates' experieces), and often not just one at a time, but 2-5 at a time. It is clearly being organized and run as an op... something that stretches credulity to believe that they are actually just a group of authentic new players. Dozens of players, as young as 2 or 3 days, and never (as in the case in the current situation we are discussing, not a single one) over 12 days just don't just spontaneously read the same guides, find each other, and work together to form a large-scale op. The efficiency of a truly new player to scan down the majority of mission runners in a heavy mission hub with dozens of active missions is also hard to believe as credible. What is being reported here is a genuine and very noticeable change in the scale and efficiency in operations of ninja salvagers in certain mission hubs. And that it is apparently being carried out exclusively by trial accounts raise certain flags to possible isk farming. Assumptions to the contrary, out of hand, and accusations of "whining" are neither productive nor called for. Well put. 2 weeks ago there weren't this many salvagers, there has clearly been a shift somewhere. While some of them may well be griefers, people who salvage for fun generally will also smack talk in local as they enjoy the upset they cause. Even then Ninja Salvaging is only fun for an hour or so, not something to do non-stop day-in-day-out. There clearly is some organisation going on here. Currently every mission I run I would get at least one warp in, on some missions it would get upto 4. I have corp mates who are saying the same thing in different regions of space. These 2 day old pilots are repeatedly scanning you down and warping into missions within 30 seconds of your arrival. How on Earth can such noob players learn to scan so effectively? I'm not whining, as to be frank a few battleship wrecks aren't the end of the world... it's just the non-stop and organised nature of it that I am complaining about, as it indicates (with no doubt IMO) that people are ISK farming. I can haz missilz?
ollobrains 5th Front enterprises CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.04 10:51:00 - [24] after ccp nuked al lthe mission farmers this seems to be their reply to make cheap isk, lame and not very profitable but yes find some way of nerfing this activity. There is another way remove all trail accounts they seem to be causing more hassle than they are worth, otherwise just leave injuren and go elsehwere
Cick Lunt	Posted - 2009.09.04 11:21:00 - [25] Let me define isk farmers on 2 ways: Isk farming, using a bot 23/day mission using isk too sell for rl money, avarage p/h 23m (ccp calc witout loot) Isk farming, mission 10/day using the isk too save it to upgrade mission boat and buying plex, avarage 45m p/h (inc looting) How do u define a isk farmer? A farmer that farms isk, and does nothing else. Now tell me that if u are running missions only in eve your not a isk farmer and i will call u isk farming carebear.
The Yzzerman Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2009.09.04 11:21:00 - [26] Well put. 2 weeks ago there weren't this many salvagers, there has clearly been a shift somewhere. While some of them may well be griefers, people who salvage for fun generally will also smack talk in local as they enjoy the upset they cause. Even then Ninja Salvaging is only fun for an hour or so, not something to do non-stop day-in-day-out. There clearly is some organisation going on here. Currently every mission I run I would get at least one warp in, on some missions it would get upto 4. I have corp mates who are saying the same thing in different regions of space. These 2 day old pilots are repeatedly scanning you down and warping into missions within 30 seconds of your arrival. How on Earth can such noob players learn to scan so effectively? I'm not whining, as to be frank a few battleship wrecks aren't the end of the world... it's just the non-stop and organised nature of it that I am complaining about, as it indicates (with no doubt IMO) that people are ISK farming. WHY THE HELL must they be chinesefarmers??? Dont you think realy that there is 'real* players that ninja loot as a proffesion. I have corp mate who earns alot form salvaging. Maybe you should try it too.
James Vayne	Posted - 2009.09.04 12:34:00 - [27] Originally by: The Yzzerman WHY THE HELL must they be chinesefarmers??? Your isk converted to rice!
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.09.04 15:17:00 - [28] So instead of acctulie thinking of something to help eve your just whining about salvaging again and you dont even have the stones go out right and post it. Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.09.04 15:58:00 - [29] Edited by: g0ggalor on 04/09/2009 16:03:04 Quote: - Trial accounts cannot salvage other people's wrecks - Salvaging someone else's wreck counts as theft and a criminal activity - If someone warps into your Mission, CONCORD will not intervene if you take aggressive action against that person. They do not have the same rights. 1) bad idea as ninja salvaging is one of the very few professions a newb can get into and make decent money and have fun too. 2) Bad Idea. It used to be that a wreck needed to be looted before it could be salvaged, so ninjas needed to both loot and salvage, triggering the agro timer. Mission runners in their 1B+ pve ship thought they could take on a small frigate, but they ended up losing their ship because ninjas had friends waiting. After many tears from carebears to ccp, they changed teh system to allow salvaging w/out looting first. 3) Eve is not designed to appear to be a cold, harsh world. It is designed to BE a cold, harsh world. It is also a MMO, not a single player game. If you want to play a game where nobody bothers you, go play an RTS against bots. Originally by: Linden Dixon Originally by: ServantOfMask Edited by: ServantOfMask on 04/09/2009 08:16:39 ok FIXED! solutions: 1) dont play during chinese prime 2) find a different system to mission in 3) salvage faster than they do 4) SHOOT THEM when they steal actual loot 2) Farmers are in every system with high quality agents You are wrong with #2 here. I know of many high quality agents that have low populations. Use eve-agents and teh 2D map to find the best agents, then look at the in game map at populations of the good agent you find and you will be very surprised.
Zavulon Sukkot Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.09.04 16:10:00 - [30] I have 17 Melted Capacitor Consoles, will that help? NATI.

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