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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.09.04 17:13:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Zavulon Sukkot
I have 17 Melted Capacitor Consoles, will that help?
Yes YES YOU CAN
Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.09.04 17:26:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 04/09/2009 17:28:21
ITT: Missionrunner proposes ninjasalvaging nerf under the guise of fighting RMT.
Assuming the OP is telling the truth at all about ISK-farming ninjasalvagers, I'm astounded by the failure on all sides here.
if your goal is to maximize ISK/hour (as it is for farmers), you don't ninjasalvage in an area with Guristas misisons, and you don't ninjasalvage in kestrels (Unless you're looting)
And the OP has no right to complain. Unless you have a magical agent that gives Angel/Sansha/Blood missions, Irjunen missions aren't worth salvaging.
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Izztyrr Maemtor
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.04 17:49:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
ITT: Missionrunner proposes ninjasalvaging nerf under the guise of fighting RMT.
QFT
I very seriously doubt that the ISK farmers have taken up ninja salvaging. However, IF (and this is a very big IF) they have. You can thank all the carebear QQ threads for it.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Gith Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.04 18:42:00 -
[34]
Wrecks do not belong to the person who made them, normaly. If you crash into someone's car, their car does not become your property. If you shoot someone in the head, their body does not become your property. If you blow someone's ship up, it does NOT BECOME YOUR PROPERTY.
In PVP The wreck still belongs to the ship's owner. Therefore The thief should be flagged towards the faction who owned the ship (Guristas etc)
The whole "make salvaging a crime" movement is ******ed. It is simply an attempt to rewrite perfectly good game mechanics in a way that favors a small portion of players.
Notice the sheer number of posts asking for this to happen. Realize that the majority of them are noobies, who haven't been around long enough to see the other 400 posts about this same thing. My conclusion is that these are WOW players invading on eve space.
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nafiy gnaw
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Posted - 2009.09.04 19:39:00 -
[35]
Edited by: nafiy gnaw on 04/09/2009 19:41:46
Edited by: nafiy gnaw on 04/09/2009 19:40:01
- Salvaging someone else's wreck counts as theft and a criminal activity
That will simply create a new mini-profession: Ninja wreck-filppers: They flip your wreck, you shoot them, they warp out, come back in a PVP ship and make mince-meat of your PVE ship. In case you dont know, a PVE-fit tech-2 Marauder will fall easily against a PVP-fit tech-1 BC.
- If someone warps into your Mission, CONCORD will not intervene if you take aggressive action against that person. They do not have the same rights.
That makes it even simpler, someone probes down your deadspace pocket, warps straight in with a PVP ship and blow you up..........without concord intervention.
While I dont like ninja-salvagers since they reduce my income by a bit but these "suggestions' to stop ninja-salvagers are actually either:
---helping them to gain more recruits
---helping them to extract more tears 
please, if you dont like ninja-salvaging, thinks its unbalanced or for whatever reason, THINK before you post a suggestion.
-narf
Originally by: Zavulon Sukkot
I have 17 Melted Capacitor Consoles, will that help?
Would you trade them for 17 metal scraps? 
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Comodore John
Gallente
QunSegh
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Posted - 2009.09.04 21:53:00 -
[36]
1) find a new place to mission
2) petition possible isk farmers
3) cry more
4) if your unsatisfied with the game mechanics, quit eve and contract me all your stuff
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El Liptonez
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Posted - 2009.09.04 23:08:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Linden Dixon
Angeliraybeal*
Armandann*
Arronash
Backaqa*
CarmellGibbons*
Cathrynoone*
ChrysWebster
Flying CC*
Jackaqa*
Kristopanger*
Leticialeist*
Patricienzi*
Rickeilvernail*
Sophhatjen
ShellRubin*
SSamuellll2*
Those names are very non-chinese to me. Very very. Actually not chinese at all, from what I see they're mostly of "western" languages.
And you really think chinese bots care about timezones?
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Wendsel Tiplinger
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Posted - 2009.09.04 23:49:00 -
[38]
First of all... despite the numerous incredulous replies... having experienced this myself, it is clear that this particular bout of ninja-salvaging in Irjunen the past week has some sort of bot/ISK farmer component to it. I have been in missions where numerous different 3-6 day old characters have warped in over the course of the mission. Then I'll start a new mission and the same thing will happen again, only with 3 or 4 different newbs. While I have certainly been hit by legitimate ninja-salvagers before, the idea that this plethora of different newb characters, all 3-6 days old, flying the same type of ship, would all manage to find my one mission when there are 80 people in system to choose from and scan down, is just unfathomable unless there was an organized farming-type/bot operation going on. They also share the same characteristics of non-response when you private chat, a set of names that are similar to each other, a set of specific high end targets that no 3-6 day newb without prior L4 mission knowledge would know to go for, and a uniform mode of behavior when they show up.
Let me also state this:
I am all for ninja-salvaging. I have done it many times myself. I am in complete agreement with CCP that the wrecks are not owned by you, and should be fair game. But at the same time, it should be legal so that legitimate players can use it as a type of mini-profession... not so ISK farmers or bots can steal all your battleship wrecks at every single mission you run. If some legit corp set up shop in system with a massive membership and was doing this on a large scale, I would applaud them. It is successful exploitation of game mechanics. But that's just not what is going on here, which is why it should be dealt with so that the LEGIT ninja-salvagers whom I respect don't see their profession tainted.
HOWEVER
To those nay-sayers in this thread, I will say I agree with you on one point. No one has proposed a legit solution to the problem rather than just crying "waah waah my wreck got stolen". Therefore, I shall attempt to give a solution, or at least give a rough draft that people can comment on, that might make the game more interesting while staying true to CCP's desire to let ninja-salvaging as a profession continue.
That solution to follow in a new post as I'm running out of characters in this post.
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Khezual
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.05 00:22:00 -
[39]
Simple solution: Disable training the salvage skill on trial accounts? If they're going to farm ISK, CCP might as well make some money out of them. I'm not sure, but I don't think this will have too big an impact on players. Salvaging certainly wasn't on my to-do list back when I was doing the trial.
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Wendsel Tiplinger
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Posted - 2009.09.05 00:25:00 -
[40]
While I don't know how to stop the bot/ISK farmer mill completely... it would be nice if there was a way to at least attempt to defend "your" salvage find without CONCORD interference. Thus, if there was some sort mechanic that would allow you to claim "salvage rights", which gives you permission to make aggressive acts, without it being an automatic aggression like can-flipping/loot stealing is... I think it might help. Here's an idea of how it would work:
By default, there are no changes. Wrecks and their salvage are fair game... anyone can come on grid and salvage them if they please. But, add an additional option to "claim salvage rights" of all wrecks currently on a grid. If you file this claim... than anyone who comes along after you and attempts to salvage "your" wrecks, or claim salvage rights on them is warned that the salvage rights have been filed with CONCORD previously by another person. Here's where the aggression mechanic can come in:
The 2nd player can then:
1) Relinquish their petition - that is the original filer gets to keep his "rights" to the wrecks uncontested - no aggro timer
2) Continue with their petition which sets off the next chain of events:
If the 2nd player decides to file a counter-petition anyway, then the original filer is sent a new message that their wrecks have been claimed by a second party. They are given the option to:
1) Relinquish their petition - i.e. the new player is given the rights and can salvage uncontested - no aggro timer
2) Keep their original petition intact. This then sets off the aggression timer and these two characters may now fire upon each other and truly fight amongst themselves for the salvage without CONCORD interference. At any point, either of the parties may relinquish their rights and the aggression timer will cease (with a short cooldown period so that people can't be tricked into accidental "illegal" aggression)
While I think this idea could obviously use some tweaking, here's some reasons I think it would work, and some answers to questions I think might come up:
"Won't this kill ninja-salvaging?"
- No. As I said, by default, salvaging will stay the same. That means true ninja-salvagers who find wrecks that haven't been claimed can still salvage them "ninja style" without anyone being the wiser.
"What's to keep mission runners from just 'claiming' all their wrecks and thus thwarting ninjas?"
- Nothing. If you want to pre-claim all your mission wrecks, go ahead. But then if someone hunts you down in a PvP ship, claims your wrecks behind you in a room you're not in, and you foolishly hold onto your rights... don't come crying when they blast your CNR to little bits with impunity.
"What about asteroid belt wrecks?"
- You could disable this mechanic for asteroid belts... but I think it would actually "spice things up" a bit if you didn't.
"What about people griefing and just going around 'claiming' all the wrecks with no intention of salvaging but just luring people into PvP?"
- Harder issue. Again, they'd be opening themselves up to PvP from someone who is better equipped than them. But maybe put a time limit on the salvage rights. Say, 20-30 minutes or so. This might also address the earlier issue of mission runners just blanketing their whole mission, like discussed in the previous question. Or just put up with it... it would probably be a pretty boring way to entice a fight and with the mechanic as described, no one would ever "accidentally" get the aggro.
Again, at least this is a bit more of a solution to the current problem than what has been suggested in this thread so far. While this won't completely kill the bot/ISK farmer issue... at least you'd be able to fire back and take some of them out. And it shouldn't destroy ninja-salvaging as a profession, but it should add some risks to it and make it less "carebear-ish".
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BeanBagKing
Ch3mic4l Warfare
Gypsy Nation
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Posted - 2009.09.05 00:42:00 -
[41]
Edited by: BeanBagKing on 05/09/2009 00:44:03
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
ITT: Missionrunner proposes ninjasalvaging nerf under the guise of fighting RMT.
^^ Truth.
His arguments just don't add up. ISK farmers go for the lowest risk with the highest reward. Assumeing that salvaging does give enough of a reward to bother with (as opposed to market trading), then they are doing level 4's (level 5's too risky in low sec, level 1-3 don't pay as well. They probably aren't going to steal loot from a level 4, at least unless they are positive the guys is gone, they want to gain isk, not lose ships to aggressing a BS.
Originally by: Linden Dixon
We are not against ninja salvaging, but we are against people abusing the system to farm ISK."
B.S. - Alright, the no salvaging for trial accounts I can go with. You have 14 days, if you came to this game just to learn ninja salvaging profession, you can work on expanded cargohold, afterburner, and cruisers or something during that time. The rest... NO
Originally by: Linden Dixon
Salvaging someone else's wreck counts as theft and a criminal activity
How many times does this have to be said, just NO! I'll only argue for this if I get aggression towards every miner currently mining in my system. Hey, they might be Chinese macro miners right? This is just a ridiculous argument if your really talking about ISK farmers.
Originally by: Linden Dixon
If someone warps into your Mission, CONCORD will not intervene if you take aggressive action against that person. They do not have the same rights.
Alright, this has got to be the absolute stupidest idea I've ever heard of. You would essentially create pockets of 0.0 in empire space where Concord would take no action, but only if you shot at them, not if they shot at you? How fair is that? Seriously, what drugs are you on right now? This is the most one sided piece of utter and complete stupidity I've ever read. NO
Now, one more thing, I could be wrong, but Irjunen looks like a mission hub to me with 17 agents. I've never been there, so maybe I am. However, even if it isn't. If your finding too many salvage ninjas MOVE! dear god stop going to every mission hub you can find and then whining "there's people in my mission" OF COURSE THERE ARE! YOUR RIGHT WHERE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR YOU! MOVE!
By the way, I became a salvage ninja simply because I saw so many cry threads about it. I hope you guys know your only hurting your case by making these.
Edit for formatting
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2009.09.05 00:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Wendsel Tiplinger
Thus, if there was some sort mechanic that would allow you to claim "salvage rights", which gives you permission to make aggressive acts, without it being an automatic aggression like can-flipping/loot stealing is... I think it might help.
Nicely thought out topic. But it still is the same request, I want aggro rights when someone takes my salvage. However, you do have some valid points with trial accounts and NPC corp thieves.
How about this idea, no one (not even the mission runner) from an NPC corp be allowed to salvage or retrieve loot from missions
Would that work with you
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Elara Montinedo
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Posted - 2009.09.05 01:03:00 -
[43]
I agree, lets make it so that salvaging a wreck that isn't yours does the same thing that flipping a can does. Much easier to pick fights with morons.
To solve the farmer problem, I agree that salvaging shouldn't be available on trial accounts.
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Wendsel Tiplinger
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Posted - 2009.09.05 05:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Brechan Skene
Nicely thought out topic. But it still is the same request, I want aggro rights when someone takes my salvage.
While it is definitely a similar request... I don't feel it is exactly the same. The system I propose wouldn't automatically assume the salvage is the "right" of the mission runner... it just gives an option for anyone to "claim" it... similar to how you might in a real life salvaging operation. But if you really are going to make that sort of "claim" on an ambiguous piece of property... you'd have to be able to back it up with something. I feel like the system I propose has a risk vs. reward factor to that "claim" mechanic... and it's not an automatic assumption that you have the rights to the salvage just cause it's your mission as it is with the loot. Maybe it's a minor difference, but I think the spirit of it is in line with what CCP wants salvaging to be like.
In terms of the game, it's more like a petition to CONCORD for the rights, one that they won't intervene in if someone else comes along to make a similar claim. And true to form, it would offer the chance for the "ship with the bigger guns" or means to back up the claim to scare off the weaker foes, similar to how it would work if EVE were to mimic a "real life" sort of salvage scenario.
Again, not trying to say it would be a perfect system... but I think it would be interesting and at least something worth trying out without completely caving to this "I want salvaging to be just like can looting" crowd.
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Ambaire
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Posted - 2009.09.05 08:49:00 -
[45]
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
End of discussion. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.05 09:23:00 -
[46]
Quote:
While I don't know how to stop the bot/ISK farmer mill completely... it would be nice if there was a way to at least attempt to defend "your" salvage find without CONCORD interference.
There already is a way to do this.... You claim the salvage (please note its 'THE Salvage' not 'your salvage' when its floating in space), anyway back on topic... there is a super mega awesome way to claim the salvage....
Be the first to salvage it. Then its in your hold and CONCORD will deffend your rights to it.
------------------------
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer
"I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!"
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.09.05 15:08:00 -
[47]
the OP is a huge sucker
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Gontarski
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.09.05 18:40:00 -
[48]
OP is a whiney troll, probably a mission farmer himself.
- Knows Chinese EVE prime time is 01:00->10:00
- Criminalises people that are online between 01:00 and 10:00 as chinese farmers. I find this borderline racism. Only Chinese are farmers? And that they are online is enough evidence?
- Is an Achura himself
- Tries to criminalise and link a legitimate game tactic/profession with RMT
- According to OP, in a mission, characters other then the mission runner do not have the rights to salvage. Hence this is whinethread #9018292385380297 about people behaving within legitimate high-sec behaviour regarding salvaging.
- Is not against ninja salvaging, but slips in solutions that have the very effect of removing this mini-profession. Seems clever at first but one can easily see through.
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Mira Walsh
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Posted - 2009.09.09 02:21:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Mira Walsh on 09/09/2009 02:25:56
If CCP doesn't implement new rules to ninja-salvaging, new 'care-bear' players would just leave the game after being http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1169322. I myself have not missioned lately due to the heavy presence of ninja-salvagers. Most people now (due to introduction of sized rigs) wish to mission more and get parts off from the salvage (and you can bake it easily and sell it for insane prices).
So, you may flame all you want on me, because most people believe this game is for the HARD_CORE L33T players who can afford to be discouraged. But no, the truth is, if you want to make a game successful, you need it to be appealing to all 'genre' of people. I say thumbs up to
"Making ninja-salvaging a theft when player is active in mission area." Might not be able to implement though. Just a thought for some changes in a very frustrating problem.
They risked it, carebears shoot back. They can try again at another mission plex. 'Rubbish' wrecks as said by GM can be salvaged since the player abandons them in the plex (or maybe salvagable only when player logs?)
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Metalcali
Dreams In Digital
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Posted - 2009.09.09 02:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mira Walsh
Edited by: Mira Walsh on 09/09/2009 02:25:56
If CCP doesn't implement new rules to ninja-salvaging, new 'care-bear' players would just leave the game after being http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1169322. I myself have not missioned lately due to the heavy presence of ninja-salvagers. Most people now (due to introduction of sized rigs) wish to mission more and get parts off from the salvage (and you can bake it easily and sell it for insane prices).
So, you may flame all you want on me, because most people believe this game is for the HARD_CORE L33T players who can afford to be discouraged. But no, the truth is, if you want to make a game successful, you need it to be appealing to all 'genre' of people. I say thumbs up to
"Making ninja-salvaging a theft when player is active in mission area." Might not be able to implement though. Just a thought for some changes in a very frustrating problem.
They risked it, carebears shoot back. They can try again at another mission plex. 'Rubbish' wrecks as said by GM can be salvaged since the player abandons them in the plex (or maybe salvagable only when player logs?)
No reason to be flamed unless you don't understand the simple concept of moving away from the ninjas and not do anything to them that might give them reason to follow you. It's really that easy.
As for sized rigs and more people getting into salvaging, that means more people can start learning how to probe out people doing missions as well as the newbies who will run them. Sounds like this would bring more people to play different aspects of the game, something that is good all around and what CCP wants. 
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
Locked.
OP does not contain an idea.
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Gogela
Caldari
Freeport Exploration
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Posted - 2009.09.09 02:48:00 -
[51]
"Ninja" is a valid and fun profession. Stop crying.
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"A hungry man will tell you anything if you give him a cookie." |
Dungheap
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:28:00 -
[52]
set aside the emotional pros and cons of ninja salvaging, and look at the situation described in this one case.
it appears to me, one or a few experienced players are multi-boxing many trial accounts. they're using irjunen because they're mission runners themselves. old mission bookmarks will get them close to active missions, giving the probe speed described to get into someone's mission within a few minutes.
this doesn't benefit new players, because there aren't any. it doesn't benefit ccp by bringing in new blood, because there isn't any. it only benefits the one or two older players using free accounts to make isk.
check back in a couple weeks to see how many of the names the op listed are still active accounts. i can't think of a better argument for making salvaging untrainable on trial accounts.
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Seigi Junsa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.15 09:20:00 -
[53]
Ninja Salvaging, although permitted and allowed, is still considered stealing. The items attached to the wreck were part of the wreck and when the wreck belongs to someone else, the unsalvaged items in the wreck also belongs to someone else. This is like taking an undamaged chandelier from the ceiling of someone's partially burned down house and the house belongs to the owner.
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El Liptonez
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Posted - 2009.10.15 11:06:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Seigi Junsa
Ninja Salvaging, although permitted and allowed, is still considered stealing. The items attached to the wreck were part of the wreck and when the wreck belongs to someone else, the unsalvaged items in the wreck also belongs to someone else. This is like taking an undamaged chandelier from the ceiling of someone's partially burned down house and the house belongs to the owner.
/thread.
This makes a lot of sense. Especially when you didn't read all previous posts.
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Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.15 12:08:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Mira Walsh
Edited by: Mira Walsh on 09/09/2009 02:25:56
If CCP doesn't implement new rules to ninja-salvaging, new 'care-bear' players would just leave the game after being http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1169322. I myself have not missioned lately due to the heavy presence of ninja-salvagers. Most people now (due to introduction of sized rigs) wish to mission more and get parts off from the salvage (and you can bake it easily and sell it for insane prices).
Quote:
"Making ninja-salvaging a theft when player is active in mission area." Might not be able to implement though. Just a thought for some changes in a very frustrating problem.
You're confusing things here. In the above quote, the mission runner shot someone who'd stolen something from their wreck just for that purpose and got ganked. Your solution won't change a thing for scenarios like that. I don't think the gankers are going to much bother about you being able to shoot at them if they salvage, since they're going to steal your loot anyway just to bait you.
And, honestly, if the only solution for your personal ninja salvaging problem was that you stopped running missions, I don't know what to say :P
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.15 18:10:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
Ninja salvaging is fun, but it is not particularly profitable.
Then you are doing it wrong.
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Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2009.10.15 21:38:00 -
[57]
I think the increase of players Ninja salvaging is in proportion to the amount of QQ on the forums.
In fact... I think I might try it this weekend.
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