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Epegi Givo Amarr Araja clan	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:15:00 - [31] Edited by: Epegi Givo on 06/09/2009 19:15:51 oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. so pirates get a plus out of this, the mission runners now have less things to complain on the forums about. The only person who loses is the ninja salvager who is actally doing it for cash, so that person will have to get off their lazy rums and actually do some WORK for their ISK. edit: my second 2nd page sniper in a row in threads about ninja salvaging. ------------------------------------- My other alt is A Ferrari Binary Translator
IMASCATMAN	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:20:00 - [32] Shoot wreckage (If you can't salvage it, don't let him) Or Mission elsewhere - you know you're in a bad place if you see an endless number of CNRs/Faction BS's dock and undock at your station. Or Mission in low sec and shoot him. Oh wait... that mean's you are fair game (as well as the salvagers) - and we wouldn't want that would we?!
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:24:00 - [33] Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2009 19:25:26 Originally by: Epegi Givo oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. Oh and for any MR who doesn't understand EVE: salvaging is already PvP — in fact, it's the only competitive element of mission running, and thus won't be changed. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:12:00 - [34] I think other people have already told you but the wrecks are -not- yours. If you are unhappy about it, write emails to the DEV and give them -intelligent- reasons why the wrecks should be yours (note, that does not include because you 'created' the wreck or whatever). Mission looting? Well, shoot the looter, he's likely to come back in a bigger PVP ship though, so get some friends/mates, come back with more bigger ships to pew pew their ships. This is what the game is about. If you cant get friends to bring more bigger ships, just speedy-finish the mission and move on. And, it is very important in this game to get friends that can bring bigger pewvpew ships that will help you when time goes bad. In conclusion: Dont be a loner, get friends. and, of course, the wrecks arent yours and anyone can get them. -narfi
Orree Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:23:00 - [35] I had my first ninja salvager today. I promptly shot all my wrecks and warped out...leaving him with aggro. I never saw him again after that. ---------- "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Taedrin Gallente The Space Bar South The Compass	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Milla Jovo Just so everyone knows I'm not whining or rage emoing. Ive been playing long enough to do the missions fast enough that I hardly ever see mission invaders and sometimes I just ignore salvage and go on to next mission. I mission for standings mostly. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. What they don't know how to change the server code? Or is it that the code dosn't work the way the players would like it to be? Or maybe the code just will not do it the right way? At any rate it seems to be a coding issue or the mission invaders would get flaged to the mission runner. It's that simple!!!!!! It is NOT an issue of coding. Salvaging was SPECIFICALLY designed to be a non-aggressive act giving neither a GCC nor an aggro flag. This is by design. They wanted players to be able to probe down missions and salvage them. What CCP did NOT intend was the popularity with which mission runners would salvage their own missions. They did not intend for salvage to become "yet another source of income for level 4 mission runners". Mission runners were actually expected to leave the salvage behind for other players to gather. This was highlighted by the fact that salvaging initially required Survey V. However, salvaging wasn't popular enough so CCP lowered the reqs to what they are today.
Xing Fey	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:29:00 - [37] Complaining about "stealing" salvage from your missions is worse than complaining about people warping mining barges into your mission and "stealing" your asteroids. At least the latter has a legitimate alternative.
Epegi Givo Amarr Araja clan	Posted - 2009.09.06 23:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2009 19:25:26 Originally by: Epegi Givo oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. Oh and for any MR who doesn't understand EVE: salvaging is already PvP ù in fact, it's the only competitive element of mission running, and thus won't be changed. but in PvP the other person can still fight back. With ninja salvaging there is pretty much NOTHING the MR can do. Sure he can shoot the wrecks, but then he loses all his stuff. give the MR a fair way of dealing ninja salvager. ------------------------------------- My other alt is A Ferrari Binary Translator
jk scowling Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.09.07 00:01:00 - [39] I'll have to try this ninja salvaging, it sounds like fun.
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.07 00:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Epegi Givo Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2009 19:25:26 Originally by: Epegi Givo oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. Oh and for any MR who doesn't understand EVE: salvaging is already PvP ù in fact, it's the only competitive element of mission running, and thus won't be changed. but in PvP the other person can still fight back. With ninja salvaging there is pretty much NOTHING the MR can do. Sure he can shoot the wrecks, but then he loses all his stuff. give the MR a fair way of dealing ninja salvager. Market is PvP, and there isn't muc actual pew pew between traders. But they manage. ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Jer Bu	Posted - 2009.09.07 01:50:00 - [41] Its kind of silly that loot is flagged as belonging to someone but salvage is not. The whole thing is inconsistent, which is what causes posters like the OP to come here and complain en masse. CCP needs to fix this and stop flagging loot or salvage. FFA for all.
Ave Kathrina	Posted - 2009.09.07 02:38:00 - [42] How to make friends and influence people. Wait for Ninja salvager to show up. Offer fleet invite. Ninja salavager will usually accept because this allows him to use his tractors and loot faster. Wait until ninja salvager has almost finished clearing room. Stealth quit fleet. Ninja Salvager aggros. Pop ninja salvager. Collect loot. Thank ninja salvager for kill mail and for collecting your loot. I;v
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2009.09.07 03:57:00 - [43] Salvaging did flag you towards the wreck-creator (Missionrunner, Beltratter, ..) as it was introduced.. so it has nothing to do with coding. Problem with that was (so ccp felt the need to change it)? The Salvage was extremely expensive, as not enough Salvage was "rescued". Prices for rigs were insane. CCP changed it, so that salvaging doesn't flag you anymore in a patch after that.. Prices of salvage and rigs came down to a reasonable level. I'm fine with that. Advice: Get out of Caldari-crowd-space if you want to run missions without the ninjas. Shoot the wrecks and burn the bridges, as ninja slavagers aren't dumb, they will remember you. Get a marauder or don't overtank the mission and make it faster.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 04:59:00 - [44] Originally by: Epegi Givo but in PvP the other person can still fight back. With ninja salvaging there is pretty much NOTHING the MR can do. Sure there is. He can salvage the stuff before the other guy gets the chance. Quote: give the MR a fair way of dealing ninja salvager. "Fair"?! The MR already have every advantage in this competition: he's already at the site. He knows exactly when and where wrecks will appear. He can tractor the wrecks. He can opt for a phyrric victory and blow the stuff up to spite the competition. Are you quite sure you want to make it a "fair" deal in this case? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 07/09/2009 05:05:21 As designed, the game allows "ninja salvaging". But OP has a point. EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. In that context, "ninja salvaging" in HighSec is a bad thing. It hurts the majority of paying customers (who are PvEers). It hurts new(ish) players much more than experienced players. It is almost irrelevant to established players. The natural design would be to make wrecks "belong" to whoever destroyed them in HighSec. In low/0.0 it doesn't matter who owns the wrecks - the net effect would be the same. I'm sure someone will want to whine about my observation that EvE is a PvE game. Go right ahead. But first think about it in terms of the standard reactionary argument: EvE is a sandbox. LowSec is irrelevant. The barriers to entry into 0.0 are ridiculously high. So the growth is in PvE. And PvE has to be fair, or people won't do it. if you want things to be different, open a thread on lowering the "barriers to entry" into EvE PvP.
Usagi Tsukino Miyazaki Zaibatsu APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:14:00 - [46] Edited by: Usagi Tsukino on 07/09/2009 05:14:07 Originally by: OrreeOne thing I'd say about not "owning" the wrecks though. They do have your corporate tag on them and if you click on them, they show the picture of the character that created the wreck. That seems pretty clear to me in terms of "ownership." That's to show who owns the content of the wreck, not the wreck its self. Which is why the tag/picture is transferred to the can when the wreck is salvaged. --- Usagi Tsukino // Miyazaki Zaibatsu
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:16:00 - [47] Edited by: Tippia on 07/09/2009 05:16:00 Originally by: Gsptlsnz EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. That's a problem with the players (or rather with their expectations), not the game mechanic. Thus, the solution isn't to adjust the mechanic, but for the players to adjust their expectations to match reality. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 07/09/2009 05:05:21 As designed, the game allows "ninja salvaging". But OP has a point. EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. In that context, "ninja salvaging" in HighSec is a bad thing. It hurts the majority of paying customers (who are PvEers). It hurts new(ish) players much more than experienced players. It is almost irrelevant to established players. The natural design would be to make wrecks "belong" to whoever destroyed them in HighSec. In low/0.0 it doesn't matter who owns the wrecks - the net effect would be the same. I'm sure someone will want to whine about my observation that EvE is a PvE game. Go right ahead. But first think about it in terms of the standard reactionary argument: EvE is a sandbox. LowSec is irrelevant. The barriers to entry into 0.0 are ridiculously high. So the growth is in PvE. And PvE has to be fair, or people won't do it. if you want things to be different, open a thread on lowering the "barriers to entry" into EvE PvP. There is no update to PvE that isn't followed by several PvP updates. Please read the rest of this thread and try to refute some of my own and other arguments. ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:45:00 - [49] Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 05:48:13 I've made a killing out of ninja salvaging as a mission runner. The price of salvage is cheap and I can manufacture rigs at a decent profit. So were all happy. Anyway I hate salvaging and any excuse to avoid it is fine by me. Also, Motsu? Everyone knows that the worst place to mission. EDIT: Where I am I've not seen one ninja salvager since I started doing level 4 missions there a few days ago. I'm feeling rather left out and unloved. Are my wrecks not good enough for you guys?
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:49:00 - [50] @ Tippia, Best It's not a problem that EvE is moving towads being a HighSec PvE game. Just a background fact. Once you accept it, the current design of salvaging seems wrong. As for "PvP": to the majority of players, PvP improvements are simply irrelevant. This is clearly what the current "PvPers" want, so everyone is happy. Except, of course, people who come to EvE looking for PvP /lol. If you want to discuss it, start a thread. Special bonus - If you ask, I'll tell you why I put "PvP" in quotes.
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:55:00 - [51] Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 05:56:25 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 07/09/2009 05:16:00 Originally by: Gsptlsnz EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. That's a problem with the players (or rather with their expectations), not the game mechanic. Thus, the solution isn't to adjust the mechanic, but for the players to adjust their expectations to match reality. Ninja salvaging is not PVP. There is no mutual interaction and no recourse. Its why I wanted to have them flagged then I have choice to PVP or not. It would be fun actually even if I get my ship blown out up. But I'm not bothered now as it is what it is. But really, its not PVP.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 06:13:00 - [52] Originally by: Gsptlsnz It's not a problem that EvE is moving towads being a HighSec PvE game. Just a background fact. It is in a PvP game. If highsec turns PvE, it no longer serves any purpose — in fact, it would actively hurt the game — and would need to be removed. Originally by: Zartanic Ninja salvaging is not PVP. There is no mutual interaction and no recourse. Yes it is. It's a competition between players over resources — over who gets the stuff first. PvP is not the same thing as combat. Some of the fierces PvP you'll encounter in EVE is done without a single shot being fired, heck without the participants even leaving their stations. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 06:55:00 - [53] I'm aware of all the definitions of PVP and how this game has many PVP styles beyond simple ship combat. But really, ninja looting does not encourage PVP at all. In fact it has the reverse effect as it is rewards with no risk, just as mission running is. It's PVE as far as Im concerned but as there is no easy definition of PVP in this game that's a matter of opinion at best. Even though I'm a carebear I also agree that PVP is the driving force behind this game. No doubt about that. Its why I'm happy with the fix to Sovereignty despite the fact I have no clue to what it really means. But there are also many players who happily PVE as well and they do make up a good chunk of subscriptions so for CCP to ignore them would hurt all of us. The idea that removing or reducing PVE would make players suddenly enjoy PVP is stretching things. That may be true for some players but others will simply play another game, there are plenty out there. Most MMORPG's are now moving towards the PVE/PVP model as many players like both (I do myself) They are not mutually exclusive. This game could provide both while at the same time each benefits the other, even if that's in increased subs and development cash. A company like CCP is not going to sit on its bum hoping more players suddenly like non consensual PVP as they have waited several years already. As long as they keep the core of the game intact they would be incompetent if they did not explore other areas of the market.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.07 06:58:00 - [54] @ Tippia (and @ risk of going too far off-topic I suppose ...) It's an EvE cliche: "EvE is a sandbox". It's not a "PvP game" or a "combat game". EvE-style PvP is shrinking (in proportion to the game as a whole) because of player actions and choices, not game design. I think all the disputes about ninja salvaging come down to something I've seen in other games: the lowlifes (thieves, gankers, etc) have a sense of entitlement: they want the game to present them with an infinite number of helpless victims. In EvE they go further - they expect to be taken seriously too /lol. The "Lords of high-risk, hardcore PvP" have acted to push the real game towards solo PvE. It's a good thing that's what they want. There's certainly no room for whining about the direction the game is going unless you take a serious look at why it's going there.
Kezzle	Posted - 2009.09.07 07:25:00 - [55] Originally by: Epegi Givo the ONLY valid arguement ninjas have is CCP stating salvage is a FFA. and we all know how many times CCP has lied to the playerbase. So we should all go RMT with our friendly neighbourhood ISK-spammer, since CCP is probably lying about that being frowned upon? What CCP says goes. It's the definition of the game reality. As such "CCP says..." pretty much trumps any argument you can make.
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2009.09.07 08:05:00 - [56] I hate to say this but when salvaging first came out you were required to remove the loot before you were able to access the salvage. This subsequently caused a criminal flagging to whom ever created the wreck. This caused numerous ambush situations for care bears, when the pirates waited in cloak ship for you to turn up and tried to salvage the wreck, you had to take the loot first thus getting flagged. They then targeted you and proceeded to kill you. Also some of you were not happy with the fact that you had to remove the loot first before you could salvage so you cried about this being wrong. Obviously with this fact you complained, whined and screamed to CCP for it to be changed and CCP granted your wish, like they did when you whined about the bad men taking your ore. However you achieved the right to access the loot without the need to be flagged or needing to remove the loot, this decision also created the ninja salvaging problem as well. So far your great care bear screaming and crying has created can flipping and subsequently ninja salvaging, would you like to create more tactics for the pirates However, I am a mission runner and I do lvl 4's to get access to faction ships and get cash for some Pew Pew. I have never been ninja salvaged. Why is that, I adapt, I actively adjust to the ninja salvaging problem and I definitely do not do my mission in a mission hub with the other 400 lemmings. I do not ninja salvage, can flip or engage in pirate activities, if you have any doubt look up the details of my character in-game. Also I post with my main, can I say the same for you
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:11:00 - [57] 3/10. It's so old that I would have given a 1/10, but apparently still many people fall for it.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:19:00 - [58] i will like to have same thing for wrecks like for cans mission runner tear will be over 9000
Schani Kratnorr x13	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:26:00 - [59] If you go into low security or 0.0 space, you can easily shoot the offending salvage/loot-thief. You can also team up with a destroyer pilot and have him piuck up the salvage before the thief arrives.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Rik Leah Good afternoon, I would like to ask if you plan something about minja salvagers? Those players probe your mission, fly in and salvage [...] blaaaaaa you are an id*** Like already multiple time stated by CCP, its not a exploit or bug but an intended mechanic.

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