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Rik Leah	Posted - 2009.09.06 14:56:00 - [1] Good afternoon, I would like to ask if you plan something about minja salvagers? Those players probe your mission, fly in and salvage all your ships before you can do anything, because you are too preoccupied by other NPC and they do not even get agro. There is absolutely nothing players can go except warp out and let them have agro, but they mostly came once all ships were killed. This expirience really ruin all the fun and game. Mostly it happens around motsu and CONCORD units are doing absolutely nothing. Personally, I think that if some player salvage your wrecks, CONCORD ships should enter and kill him or make him pay some fine. In real life poliece would also arrest you for stealing other's property and this is absolutely the same. Sometimes they even take your lootand before you can do anything they warp out. If they stay and you shoot them, they mostly have gang hanging around to jump on you, because you get agro... this is really weird and I'm worried that if this goes on, I'll have to quit eve, because I play here for fun with friends, not to be stressed by some nerd who can't earn money properly. And yes, space is a dangerous place, but still in highly secured space this should not happen.... Thanks for your reply, Rik Leah Shirl Leah
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:01:00 - [2] Originally by: Rik Leah Good afternoon, I would like to ask if you plan something about minja salvagers? Those players probe your mission, fly in and salvage all your ships before you can do anything, because you are too preoccupied by other NPC and they do not even get agro. There is absolutely nothing players can go except warp out and let them have agro, but they mostly came once all ships were killed. This expirience really ruin all the fun and game. Mostly it happens around motsu and CONCORD units are doing absolutely nothing. Personally, I think that if some player salvage your wrecks, CONCORD ships should enter and kill him or make him pay some fine. In real life poliece would also arrest you for stealing other's property and this is absolutely the same. Sometimes they even take your lootand before you can do anything they warp out. If they stay and you shoot them, they mostly have gang hanging around to jump on you, because you get agro... this is really weird and I'm worried that if this goes on, I'll have to quit eve, because I play here for fun with friends, not to be stressed by some nerd who can't earn money properly. And yes, space is a dangerous place, but still in highly secured space this should not happen.... Thanks for your reply, Rik Leah Shirl Leah They can't steal your salvage because its not yours till its in your cargo hold. CCP have said this themselfs and plan to do nothing. Cya. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:02:00 - [3] Checklist for a proper ninjasalvaging thread: -Feeling of entitlement and assumption that the salvage belongs to the missionrunner, despite numerous statements by CCP to the contrary? Check. -Claim that the missionrunner's fun is ruined because missionrunning makes slightly less ISK/hour? check -Demand for reform? Also check. Worth noting that this particular whiner actually wanted ninjasalvagers CONCORDOKKENed, which is even more stupid than having ninjas flagged to the missionrunner -Comparison to real life? Check -Baseless assumptions and insults about ninjas in real life? Check. -Threat to quit EVE? well **, no whine thread is complete without this, check. Well done OP, you've gotten every major element of a proper ***thread. If only this topic hadn't been made a million times before and you actually made an argument instead of whining it would get somewhere.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:05:00 - [4] /Crushes her head into her keyboard over and over again while screaming: NOT THIS AGAIN!
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Kahega Amielden -Claim that the missionrunner's fun is ruined because missionrunning makes slightly less ISK/hour? check The real gem in this is, that unless you're salvaging in a Salvage-fit Marauder, 9/10 times you'll make more isk/hour ignoring salvage unless you're in an extremely terrible fit that takes an hour per mission. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:07:00 - [6] The risks of a Ninja Salvager: > Can warp into a mission that has little to no wrecks in it, therefore no profit > Can warp into a heated fight and get targeted by new spawns > Can be salvaging when a new spawn shows up and targets him > Can warp in on Recon 3/3 > Can warp in on a mission runner actively salvaging > Can warp in on a BC or BS doing a Lvl2 or Lvl1 mission > Can warp in on a Mission Runner blowing up the wrecks > Can spend a long time making these mistakes, not getting good salvage, and therefore killing his isk/hr. Because he has to actively hunt for his ISK, he can't just talk to an agent and receive a bookmark, and his isk isn't always guaranteed. Infact, the statement that a Ninja salvager can make millions in a few days is laughable. Even more-so when a Mission Runner states that Ninja Salvaging is a No-Risk money maker. If a wreck has value because it has the potential to be valuable, then same could be said with anything else out of our reach or realm of gameplay such as Dyspo moons, should that mean that we should have rights to it? So say a wreck does have value because of this, this does not mean that the wreck belongs to you. You made it, but the pirate was the pilot, it would be 'his' wreck, but he is dead, so it is free game. The fact is, the wrecks don't belong to any one person. If, in fact, that the mechanic was changed. Say to: "Salvaging the wreck owned by another player with give you aggression to that player for 15 minutes." So I will give this Anecdote here: A Mission Runner finally finishes his long L4 mission. It wasn't very hard for this person because of his Marauder with faction gear, making everything just seem to melt in his line of sight. Then a lowly frigate warps in on the Mission Runner, flys to the nearest wreck and Salvages it. The Mission Runner, infuriated, shoots the frigate, instantly killing the ship, and laughing as the pod warps off. While the mission runner is running onto collect his loot, to warp back to his agent, or to salvage in his ship that he did the mission with, that lowly frigate pilot came back. But not in a frigate, no, he came back in a Battleship, knowing what pirates you were fighting, and what damage the Mission runner does, he fits his ship to tank the damage and deal against his weak resists, all while neuting your active tank. Quickly, the Mission Runner ship explodes. Triumphant, the lowly frigate pilot scoops up the bit of Faction loot that you dropped, gets a shiny killmail, and is off to profit off the market and the Eve-O boards. Nothing will change, except this: There will be a new way to grief players unfamiliar to the mechanics of the game. Or players not paying attention. ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:13:00 - [7] Edited by: Serpents smile on 06/09/2009 15:14:47 Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest A Mission Runner finally finishes his long L4 mission. It wasn't very hard for this person because of his Marauder with faction gear, making everything just seem to melt in his line of sight. Then a lowly frigate warps in on the Mission Runner, flys to the nearest wreck and Salvages it. The Mission Runner, infuriated, shoots the frigate, instantly killing the ship, and laughing as the pod warps off. While the mission runner is running onto collect his loot, to warp back to his agent, or to salvage in his ship that he did the mission with, that lowly frigate pilot came back. But not in a frigate, no, he came back in a Battleship, knowing what pirates you were fighting, and what damage the Mission runner does, he fits his ship to tank the damage and deal against his weak resists, all while neuting your active tank. Quickly, the Mission Runner ship explodes. Triumphant, the lowly frigate pilot scoops up the bit of Faction loot that you dropped, gets a shiny killmail, and is off to profit off the market and the Eve-O boards. I must say that this (<-edit) is the best answer to this so often returning by now redundant topic I have seen in ages. Heck, its the best answer ever!
Memphis Baas	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:18:00 - [8] Both sides of this debate have bull**** arguments. It just comes down to "this is the way CCP has coded it since they introduced salvage (a few years now)." They haven't made any changes, and so the repetition of these threads and arguments is getting annoying. Complain with your wallet and cancel your subscription, if it affects you so. We don't care what you do. We don't care if CCP goes bankrupt cause you and others stop playing. They don't care about us, we don't care about them, we don't care about anybody else. Nobody cares.
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Memphis Baas Both sides of this debate have bull**** arguments. It just comes down to "this is the way CCP has coded it since they introduced salvage (a few years now)." They haven't made any changes, and so the repetition of these threads and arguments is getting annoying. Complain with your wallet and cancel your subscription, if it affects you so. We don't care what you do. We don't care if CCP goes bankrupt cause you and others stop playing. They don't care about us, we don't care about them, we don't care about anybody else. Nobody cares. Remember to have your bowl of emo flakes before each day of black nothingness! ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest Originally by: Memphis Baas Both sides of this debate have bull** arguments. It just comes down to "this is the way CCP has coded it since they introduced salvage (a few years now)." They haven't made any changes, and so the repetition of these threads and arguments is getting annoying. Complain with your wallet and cancel your subscription, if it affects you so. We don't care what you do. We don't care if CCP goes bankrupt cause you and others stop playing. They don't care about us, we don't care about them, we don't care about anybody else. Nobody cares. Remember to have your bowl of emo flakes before each day of black nothingness! Emo Flakes, the only Cereal you eat with a Knife and Fork. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by:** CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Rik Leah I would like to ask if you plan something about minja salvagers? No they aren't. They have made this abundantly clear in the past, mainly because there is nothing about them that needs to be done. Quote: There is absolutely nothing players can go except warp out and let them have agro This is incorrect. Quote: This expirience really ruin all the fun and game. If that's all the fun you can squeeze out of EVE, you're doing it wrong. Quote: Mostly it happens around motsu So don't go there. Quote: CONCORD units are doing absolutely nothing Of course. Why would they? Quote: In real life poliece would also arrest you for stealing other's property EVE isn't real life, and besides, they're not stealing anything. If they were, they'd be flagged and you'd be able to shoot them… Quote: If they stay and you shoot them, they mostly have gang hanging around to jump on you, because you get agro... …but apparently you don't want to do that. So the problem exists entirely with you. Quote: but still in highly secured space this should not happen.... You don't understand the purpose or meaning of high-sec. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:24:00 - [12] Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 06/09/2009 15:24:59 Originally by: Rik Leah minja salvagers? I read this as Minge salvagers. God. Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Irida Mershkov Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 06/09/2009 15:24:59 Originally by: Rik Leah minja salvagers? I read this as Minge salvagers. God. Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) Thats Muchly, BM'd the link again as i lost it in a format. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:32:00 - [14] Or you just ignore salvage and go on to next mission
Br41n Amarr Pinky and the Brain corp	Posted - 2009.09.06 15:33:00 - [15] You can always shoot the wrecks if you dont like them to have the salvage and loot. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pinky: Gee, Brain. What are we going to do tonight? Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
annoing Amarr Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.06 16:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Br41n You can always shoot the wrecks if you dont like them to have the salvage and loot. I do this^^ ... if im on a mission where I cant salvage as I mission (marauder ftw - no wreck is ever more than 39km away) I always blow the wrecks. If they warp in as im killing and salvaging, I set my drones to kill the wrecks. They'll find it hard to get their hands on my salvage. As for the loot, I take the good stuff, put the rest in a can and blow it after each room is finished. Originally by: Zeba Its all the pron. Fappy people are happy people
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.06 16:13:00 - [17] It's like no one ever bothers to read my post or try to refute it ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Jenhai	Posted - 2009.09.06 16:16:00 - [18] Rik, please turn this post into a macro, and make it repost the same thing every half hour, every day. TIA. ------------------------------------------------------------------- In times of peace you must prepare for war, In times of war you must prepare for peace.
Raven d'Quosh	Posted - 2009.09.06 16:40:00 - [19] I only made pettion and was answerd to post it to forums, so I did....
Cadde Gallente FireworX	Posted - 2009.09.06 16:44:00 - [20] I don't think it has been mentioned before (IN THIS THREAD THAT IS, there are a gazillion other threads on the matter though) that ninja salvagers can't use their tractor beams to drag your wrecks to them. Making the whole salvage stealing process worthless in comparison to them running a mission and salvaging their own wrecks. Ninja salvagers quite simple do it because... THEY ENJOY READING YOUR WHINING... Here! Also, to fix the problem once and for all. Run missions somewhere else or run them quickly enough that you can return in time and salvage all the wrecks. I keep seeing these people with super tanked ships doing less than 200 DPS in missions. Even when they take all the aggro there is in a mission their tanks still doesn't budge a tiny bit. That's why it takes them 2 hours to finish, as an example, Infiltrated Outposts. Personally, i can run more than 50% of all missions in eve without a single tanking module. I tank with my DPS, that is the way to go if you wanna be quick in and out and still have time to get your salvage. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Doomed Predator The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.06 16:48:00 - [21] OP can either give me his stuff or go die in a chemical fire(ingame) The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
Taedrin Gallente The Space Bar South The Compass	Posted - 2009.09.06 16:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest It's like no one ever bothers to read my post or try to refute it I know the feeling . To be honest, though, your post was constructed out of facts, and those don't belong here. Only baseless accusations, assumptions and a hostile attitudes belong here.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.09.06 17:03:00 - [23] And so it beings the great war of our time. Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Earl Comstock	Posted - 2009.09.06 17:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest The risks of a Ninja Salvager: Infact, the statement that a Ninja salvager can make millions in a few days is laughable. Even more-so when a Mission Runner states that Ninja Salvaging is a No-Risk money maker. Agree with most of the rest, but re this statement, are you plain out of your mind? It takes mere minutes to find a mission site and the salvage from one site will likely be worth a few mil just in itself. If you're doing it right you can make several mil an hour, nevermind millions in "a few days." As for being zero risk, it basically is, unless you're stupid. So you lose 200k or less occasionally when you find recon 3/3 or the rare mission where the runner(s) doesn't have all the aggro. The largest risk comes from being a tool and looting that tasty looking named mod rather than sticking to salvage, and getting popped by the mission gang. To those that don't 'like' it, there's an easy solution. Blow up the wrecks you see the salvage beam lock on to. The salvager will get bored and leave after two or three.
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.06 17:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Earl Comstock Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest The risks of a Ninja Salvager: Infact, the statement that a Ninja salvager can make millions in a few days is laughable. Even more-so when a Mission Runner states that Ninja Salvaging is a No-Risk money maker. Agree with most of the rest, but re this statement, are you plain out of your mind? It takes mere minutes to find a mission site and the salvage from one site will likely be worth a few mil just in itself. If you're doing it right you can make several mil an hour, nevermind millions in "a few days." As for being zero risk, it basically is, unless you're stupid. So you lose 200k or less occasionally when you find recon 3/3 or the rare mission where the runner(s) doesn't have all the aggro. The largest risk comes from being a tool and looting that tasty looking named mod rather than sticking to salvage, and getting popped by the mission gang. To those that don't 'like' it, there's an easy solution. Blow up the wrecks you see the salvage beam lock on to. The salvager will get bored and leave after two or three. That statement was more in turn of how misinformed most people are about Salvaging, and the irony of a mission runner calling fowl on a No-Risk money maker. And if you want to actually be sufficient in what you are doing, ontop of skills you'll want a rigged COVOPs ship with SOE Probes and launcher. Last time I checked that wasn't worth 200k or less. ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.09.06 18:30:00 - [26] Just so everyone knows I'm not whining or rage emoing. Ive been playing long enough to do the missions fast enough that I hardly ever see mission invaders and sometimes I just ignore salvage and go on to next mission. I mission for standings mostly. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. What they don't know how to change the server code? Or is it that the code dosn't work the way the players would like it to be? Or maybe the code just will not do it the right way? At any rate it seems to be a coding issue or the mission invaders would get flaged to the mission runner. It's that simple!!!!!!
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.09.06 18:37:00 - [27] Intended game mechanics often are a matter of coding.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.06 18:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Milla Jovo What they don't know how to change the server code? Or is it that the code dosn't work the way the players would like it to be? Or maybe the code just will not do it the right way? None of the above, although the middle one comes closest. Sure they can change the code, but why would they? Sure the code can do it the right way — heck, it already does. But no, it doesn't work the way some players would like it to be, but there's no reason to make it work that way. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Calvin Firenze Minmatar Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:03:00 - [29] Back when I used to run missions I'd salvage my own mission, but if someone scanned it out and started salvaging I'd let them have it and move on to the next mission. Its not that big of a deal. If I was feeling nice I'd even fleet him and let him have the loot too. Sometimes when I was drunk I'd ask in local if anyone felt like salvaging my mission because I didn't feel like doing it. Once someone took stuff out of the wreck and got flagged, so I popped him for **s and giggles. I'm sick of people whining about losing a little bit of isk in "secure" space because they think it should be happy-fun land where they can do as they please with zero risk. The most I've ever gotten out of mission salvage and loot is around 60mil. If you're going to cry about that little bit of isk, Hello Kitty is that way. ---> Originally by:** Xanos Blackpaw some people need to have the stupid beaten out of them
Epegi Givo Amarr Araja clan	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:10:00 - [30] i'll quote the thread in C&P for here Originally by: Jacqueri Calroszian Originally by: Srialia That is the problem most MRs have, right there: an entitlement mentality. I, on the other hand, take the salvage and loot I can get to before anybody else can. If I get blown up for it, I was prepared for that possibility. More often than not though, I get rewarded again by the helpless mission runner whining in local. That right there is worth more than any salvage. Learn that this game requires a modi****of effort, and no I'm not talking about skill training - that requires nothing more than patience. I mean if you want something, do what needs to be done to take it, and be ready for consequences. Don't expect papa CCP to hold your hand - if you want that treatment, go play warcraft. I don't think most of you know what you're begging for when you ask salvaging to be a criminal action. At least the way it is now, you get to keep your mission ships. If you're just now realizing that a sort of entitlement mentality "problem" exists within EVE, well... nevermind - I'll just jump to my point: Alliances, corporations, miners, pirates, and mission runners all have this mentality. Alliances claim regions of space. Corporations often believe they are entitled to some kind of reputation, miners believe they are entitled to the minerals they drop in jetcans. And pirates are, in fact, entitled to the ransoms and the sec-status they receive as per their actions. Here's the problem: Alliances and corporations can settle problems of entitlement with wars and engagements. Miners can shoot can-flippers. Pirates can shoot those they hold ransom if they refuse to pay it. Mission runners? No. Their sporadic sense of entitlement cannot be settled with such graceful conflict. This is strangely alien in comparison to most other mainstream (and the not-so-mainstream) professions and elements of EVE. At least not without an invincible and absolute third-party (e.g. Concord) entering and eschewing any possibility of the outcome being favorable for the mission runner. I'm sure the many MRs of EVE would be happy to put in at least a modicum of effort here on the forums where developers might actually listen. Frankly, it seems they're all ready for these "consequences." The ninja-salvaging community, on the other hand, might need to stock up on a few new skillbooks. Or, they can continue doing things as they always have (and with the possibility of T1 salvage being used to make T2 salvage still somewhat up-in-the-air), this may be well worth their time. the ONLY valid arguement ninjas have is CCP stating salvage is a FFA. and we all know how many times CCP has lied to the playerbase. ------------------------------------- My other alt is A Ferrari Binary Translator
Epegi Givo Amarr Araja clan	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:15:00 - [31] Edited by: Epegi Givo on 06/09/2009 19:15:51 oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. so pirates get a plus out of this, the mission runners now have less things to complain on the forums about. The only person who loses is the ninja salvager who is actally doing it for cash, so that person will have to get off their lazy rums and actually do some WORK for their ISK. edit: my second 2nd page sniper in a row in threads about ninja salvaging. ------------------------------------- My other alt is A Ferrari Binary Translator
IMASCATMAN	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:20:00 - [32] Shoot wreckage (If you can't salvage it, don't let him) Or Mission elsewhere - you know you're in a bad place if you see an endless number of CNRs/Faction BS's dock and undock at your station. Or Mission in low sec and shoot him. Oh wait... that mean's you are fair game (as well as the salvagers) - and we wouldn't want that would we?!
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.06 19:24:00 - [33] Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2009 19:25:26 Originally by: Epegi Givo oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. Oh and for any MR who doesn't understand EVE: salvaging is already PvP — in fact, it's the only competitive element of mission running, and thus won't be changed. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:12:00 - [34] I think other people have already told you but the wrecks are -not- yours. If you are unhappy about it, write emails to the DEV and give them -intelligent- reasons why the wrecks should be yours (note, that does not include because you 'created' the wreck or whatever). Mission looting? Well, shoot the looter, he's likely to come back in a bigger PVP ship though, so get some friends/mates, come back with more bigger ships to pew pew their ships. This is what the game is about. If you cant get friends to bring more bigger ships, just speedy-finish the mission and move on. And, it is very important in this game to get friends that can bring bigger pewvpew ships that will help you when time goes bad. In conclusion: Dont be a loner, get friends. and, of course, the wrecks arent yours and anyone can get them. -narfi
Orree Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:23:00 - [35] I had my first ninja salvager today. I promptly shot all my wrecks and warped out...leaving him with aggro. I never saw him again after that. ---------- "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Taedrin Gallente The Space Bar South The Compass	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Milla Jovo Just so everyone knows I'm not whining or rage emoing. Ive been playing long enough to do the missions fast enough that I hardly ever see mission invaders and sometimes I just ignore salvage and go on to next mission. I mission for standings mostly. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. What they don't know how to change the server code? Or is it that the code dosn't work the way the players would like it to be? Or maybe the code just will not do it the right way? At any rate it seems to be a coding issue or the mission invaders would get flaged to the mission runner. It's that simple!!!!!! It is NOT an issue of coding. Salvaging was SPECIFICALLY designed to be a non-aggressive act giving neither a GCC nor an aggro flag. This is by design. They wanted players to be able to probe down missions and salvage them. What CCP did NOT intend was the popularity with which mission runners would salvage their own missions. They did not intend for salvage to become "yet another source of income for level 4 mission runners". Mission runners were actually expected to leave the salvage behind for other players to gather. This was highlighted by the fact that salvaging initially required Survey V. However, salvaging wasn't popular enough so CCP lowered the reqs to what they are today.
Xing Fey	Posted - 2009.09.06 21:29:00 - [37] Complaining about "stealing" salvage from your missions is worse than complaining about people warping mining barges into your mission and "stealing" your asteroids. At least the latter has a legitimate alternative.
Epegi Givo Amarr Araja clan	Posted - 2009.09.06 23:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2009 19:25:26 Originally by: Epegi Givo oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. Oh and for any MR who doesn't understand EVE: salvaging is already PvP ù in fact, it's the only competitive element of mission running, and thus won't be changed. but in PvP the other person can still fight back. With ninja salvaging there is pretty much NOTHING the MR can do. Sure he can shoot the wrecks, but then he loses all his stuff. give the MR a fair way of dealing ninja salvager. ------------------------------------- My other alt is A Ferrari Binary Translator
jk scowling Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.09.07 00:01:00 - [39] I'll have to try this ninja salvaging, it sounds like fun.
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.07 00:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Epegi Givo Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2009 19:25:26 Originally by: Epegi Givo oh and for any PvP who are bad at deducing stuff, salvage being flagged = more chance Mission runner will shoot at salvager = higher chance MR gets ganked. Oh and for any MR who doesn't understand EVE: salvaging is already PvP ù in fact, it's the only competitive element of mission running, and thus won't be changed. but in PvP the other person can still fight back. With ninja salvaging there is pretty much NOTHING the MR can do. Sure he can shoot the wrecks, but then he loses all his stuff. give the MR a fair way of dealing ninja salvager. Market is PvP, and there isn't muc actual pew pew between traders. But they manage. ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Jer Bu	Posted - 2009.09.07 01:50:00 - [41] Its kind of silly that loot is flagged as belonging to someone but salvage is not. The whole thing is inconsistent, which is what causes posters like the OP to come here and complain en masse. CCP needs to fix this and stop flagging loot or salvage. FFA for all.
Ave Kathrina	Posted - 2009.09.07 02:38:00 - [42] How to make friends and influence people. Wait for Ninja salvager to show up. Offer fleet invite. Ninja salavager will usually accept because this allows him to use his tractors and loot faster. Wait until ninja salvager has almost finished clearing room. Stealth quit fleet. Ninja Salvager aggros. Pop ninja salvager. Collect loot. Thank ninja salvager for kill mail and for collecting your loot. I;v
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2009.09.07 03:57:00 - [43] Salvaging did flag you towards the wreck-creator (Missionrunner, Beltratter, ..) as it was introduced.. so it has nothing to do with coding. Problem with that was (so ccp felt the need to change it)? The Salvage was extremely expensive, as not enough Salvage was "rescued". Prices for rigs were insane. CCP changed it, so that salvaging doesn't flag you anymore in a patch after that.. Prices of salvage and rigs came down to a reasonable level. I'm fine with that. Advice: Get out of Caldari-crowd-space if you want to run missions without the ninjas. Shoot the wrecks and burn the bridges, as ninja slavagers aren't dumb, they will remember you. Get a marauder or don't overtank the mission and make it faster.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 04:59:00 - [44] Originally by: Epegi Givo but in PvP the other person can still fight back. With ninja salvaging there is pretty much NOTHING the MR can do. Sure there is. He can salvage the stuff before the other guy gets the chance. Quote: give the MR a fair way of dealing ninja salvager. "Fair"?! The MR already have every advantage in this competition: he's already at the site. He knows exactly when and where wrecks will appear. He can tractor the wrecks. He can opt for a phyrric victory and blow the stuff up to spite the competition. Are you quite sure you want to make it a "fair" deal in this case? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 07/09/2009 05:05:21 As designed, the game allows "ninja salvaging". But OP has a point. EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. In that context, "ninja salvaging" in HighSec is a bad thing. It hurts the majority of paying customers (who are PvEers). It hurts new(ish) players much more than experienced players. It is almost irrelevant to established players. The natural design would be to make wrecks "belong" to whoever destroyed them in HighSec. In low/0.0 it doesn't matter who owns the wrecks - the net effect would be the same. I'm sure someone will want to whine about my observation that EvE is a PvE game. Go right ahead. But first think about it in terms of the standard reactionary argument: EvE is a sandbox. LowSec is irrelevant. The barriers to entry into 0.0 are ridiculously high. So the growth is in PvE. And PvE has to be fair, or people won't do it. if you want things to be different, open a thread on lowering the "barriers to entry" into EvE PvP.
Usagi Tsukino Miyazaki Zaibatsu APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:14:00 - [46] Edited by: Usagi Tsukino on 07/09/2009 05:14:07 Originally by: OrreeOne thing I'd say about not "owning" the wrecks though. They do have your corporate tag on them and if you click on them, they show the picture of the character that created the wreck. That seems pretty clear to me in terms of "ownership." That's to show who owns the content of the wreck, not the wreck its self. Which is why the tag/picture is transferred to the can when the wreck is salvaged. --- Usagi Tsukino // Miyazaki Zaibatsu
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:16:00 - [47] Edited by: Tippia on 07/09/2009 05:16:00 Originally by: Gsptlsnz EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. That's a problem with the players (or rather with their expectations), not the game mechanic. Thus, the solution isn't to adjust the mechanic, but for the players to adjust their expectations to match reality. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 07/09/2009 05:05:21 As designed, the game allows "ninja salvaging". But OP has a point. EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. In that context, "ninja salvaging" in HighSec is a bad thing. It hurts the majority of paying customers (who are PvEers). It hurts new(ish) players much more than experienced players. It is almost irrelevant to established players. The natural design would be to make wrecks "belong" to whoever destroyed them in HighSec. In low/0.0 it doesn't matter who owns the wrecks - the net effect would be the same. I'm sure someone will want to whine about my observation that EvE is a PvE game. Go right ahead. But first think about it in terms of the standard reactionary argument: EvE is a sandbox. LowSec is irrelevant. The barriers to entry into 0.0 are ridiculously high. So the growth is in PvE. And PvE has to be fair, or people won't do it. if you want things to be different, open a thread on lowering the "barriers to entry" into EvE PvP. There is no update to PvE that isn't followed by several PvP updates. Please read the rest of this thread and try to refute some of my own and other arguments. ________________________________________________ My Music Posts slowly rising in quality to the decline of my dignity.
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:45:00 - [49] Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 05:48:13 I've made a killing out of ninja salvaging as a mission runner. The price of salvage is cheap and I can manufacture rigs at a decent profit. So were all happy. Anyway I hate salvaging and any excuse to avoid it is fine by me. Also, Motsu? Everyone knows that the worst place to mission. EDIT: Where I am I've not seen one ninja salvager since I started doing level 4 missions there a few days ago. I'm feeling rather left out and unloved. Are my wrecks not good enough for you guys?
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:49:00 - [50] @ Tippia, Best It's not a problem that EvE is moving towads being a HighSec PvE game. Just a background fact. Once you accept it, the current design of salvaging seems wrong. As for "PvP": to the majority of players, PvP improvements are simply irrelevant. This is clearly what the current "PvPers" want, so everyone is happy. Except, of course, people who come to EvE looking for PvP /lol. If you want to discuss it, start a thread. Special bonus - If you ask, I'll tell you why I put "PvP" in quotes.
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 05:55:00 - [51] Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 05:56:25 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 07/09/2009 05:16:00 Originally by: Gsptlsnz EvE is becoming a pure PvE game for the majority of players. HighSec is evolving towards being a decent self-contained PvE environment. That's a problem with the players (or rather with their expectations), not the game mechanic. Thus, the solution isn't to adjust the mechanic, but for the players to adjust their expectations to match reality. Ninja salvaging is not PVP. There is no mutual interaction and no recourse. Its why I wanted to have them flagged then I have choice to PVP or not. It would be fun actually even if I get my ship blown out up. But I'm not bothered now as it is what it is. But really, its not PVP.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 06:13:00 - [52] Originally by: Gsptlsnz It's not a problem that EvE is moving towads being a HighSec PvE game. Just a background fact. It is in a PvP game. If highsec turns PvE, it no longer serves any purpose — in fact, it would actively hurt the game — and would need to be removed. Originally by: Zartanic Ninja salvaging is not PVP. There is no mutual interaction and no recourse. Yes it is. It's a competition between players over resources — over who gets the stuff first. PvP is not the same thing as combat. Some of the fierces PvP you'll encounter in EVE is done without a single shot being fired, heck without the participants even leaving their stations. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 06:55:00 - [53] I'm aware of all the definitions of PVP and how this game has many PVP styles beyond simple ship combat. But really, ninja looting does not encourage PVP at all. In fact it has the reverse effect as it is rewards with no risk, just as mission running is. It's PVE as far as Im concerned but as there is no easy definition of PVP in this game that's a matter of opinion at best. Even though I'm a carebear I also agree that PVP is the driving force behind this game. No doubt about that. Its why I'm happy with the fix to Sovereignty despite the fact I have no clue to what it really means. But there are also many players who happily PVE as well and they do make up a good chunk of subscriptions so for CCP to ignore them would hurt all of us. The idea that removing or reducing PVE would make players suddenly enjoy PVP is stretching things. That may be true for some players but others will simply play another game, there are plenty out there. Most MMORPG's are now moving towards the PVE/PVP model as many players like both (I do myself) They are not mutually exclusive. This game could provide both while at the same time each benefits the other, even if that's in increased subs and development cash. A company like CCP is not going to sit on its bum hoping more players suddenly like non consensual PVP as they have waited several years already. As long as they keep the core of the game intact they would be incompetent if they did not explore other areas of the market.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.07 06:58:00 - [54] @ Tippia (and @ risk of going too far off-topic I suppose ...) It's an EvE cliche: "EvE is a sandbox". It's not a "PvP game" or a "combat game". EvE-style PvP is shrinking (in proportion to the game as a whole) because of player actions and choices, not game design. I think all the disputes about ninja salvaging come down to something I've seen in other games: the lowlifes (thieves, gankers, etc) have a sense of entitlement: they want the game to present them with an infinite number of helpless victims. In EvE they go further - they expect to be taken seriously too /lol. The "Lords of high-risk, hardcore PvP" have acted to push the real game towards solo PvE. It's a good thing that's what they want. There's certainly no room for whining about the direction the game is going unless you take a serious look at why it's going there.
Kezzle	Posted - 2009.09.07 07:25:00 - [55] Originally by: Epegi Givo the ONLY valid arguement ninjas have is CCP stating salvage is a FFA. and we all know how many times CCP has lied to the playerbase. So we should all go RMT with our friendly neighbourhood ISK-spammer, since CCP is probably lying about that being frowned upon? What CCP says goes. It's the definition of the game reality. As such "CCP says..." pretty much trumps any argument you can make.
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2009.09.07 08:05:00 - [56] I hate to say this but when salvaging first came out you were required to remove the loot before you were able to access the salvage. This subsequently caused a criminal flagging to whom ever created the wreck. This caused numerous ambush situations for care bears, when the pirates waited in cloak ship for you to turn up and tried to salvage the wreck, you had to take the loot first thus getting flagged. They then targeted you and proceeded to kill you. Also some of you were not happy with the fact that you had to remove the loot first before you could salvage so you cried about this being wrong. Obviously with this fact you complained, whined and screamed to CCP for it to be changed and CCP granted your wish, like they did when you whined about the bad men taking your ore. However you achieved the right to access the loot without the need to be flagged or needing to remove the loot, this decision also created the ninja salvaging problem as well. So far your great care bear screaming and crying has created can flipping and subsequently ninja salvaging, would you like to create more tactics for the pirates However, I am a mission runner and I do lvl 4's to get access to faction ships and get cash for some Pew Pew. I have never been ninja salvaged. Why is that, I adapt, I actively adjust to the ninja salvaging problem and I definitely do not do my mission in a mission hub with the other 400 lemmings. I do not ninja salvage, can flip or engage in pirate activities, if you have any doubt look up the details of my character in-game. Also I post with my main, can I say the same for you
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:11:00 - [57] 3/10. It's so old that I would have given a 1/10, but apparently still many people fall for it.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:19:00 - [58] i will like to have same thing for wrecks like for cans mission runner tear will be over 9000
Schani Kratnorr x13	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:26:00 - [59] If you go into low security or 0.0 space, you can easily shoot the offending salvage/loot-thief. You can also team up with a destroyer pilot and have him piuck up the salvage before the thief arrives.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Rik Leah Good afternoon, I would like to ask if you plan something about minja salvagers? Those players probe your mission, fly in and salvage [...] blaaaaaa you are an id*** Like already multiple time stated by CCP, its not a exploit or bug but an intended mechanic.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:33:00 - [61] On account of the fact the OP has not responded i am rating this a 7/10 troll. Good job OP. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 09:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Zartanic I'm aware of all the definitions of PVP and how this game has many PVP styles beyond simple ship combat. But really, ninja looting does not encourage PVP at all. How can it not, when it is PvP already? Quote: In fact it has the reverse effect as it is rewards with no risk, just as mission running is. There are risks, just like there is in trading — people just choose to ignore them because they either don't understand the concept of "risk" or because it just doesn't serve their purpose. Quote: It's PVE as far as Im concerned but as there is no easy definition of PVP in this game that's a matter of opinion at best. What environmental obstacle are you going up against when you're salvaging? I can't think of a single one, unless you count the standard mission obstacles at which point the MRs lose their main argument (but then again, you disagree with them there already from what I understand). The obstacle is other players: that someone else might get ze stuff first. It's a race against other players to get there first. Ergo, PvP. Quote: But there are also many players who happily PVE as well and they do make up a good chunk of subscriptions so for CCP to ignore them would hurt all of us. The problem is that they only think they're PvE:ing, and that they should therefore somehow be exempt from the PvP nature of the game. They forget that every time they interact with the PvP part of the game (i.e. every time they do anything beyond shooting their mission rats) they affect the rest of the world; they compete with all the other players; they engage in PvP. Originally by: Gsptlsnz It's an EvE cliche: "EvE is a sandbox". It's not a "PvP game" or a "combat game". EvE-style PvP is shrinking (in proportion to the game as a whole) because of player actions and choices, not game design. No. EVE-style PvP remains the same — it's just the number of players who miss the fact that they're actually engaging in PvP on a daily basis that's increasing. Quote: I think all the disputes about ninja salvaging come down to something I've seen in other games: the lowlifes (thieves, gankers, etc) have a sense of entitlement: they want the game to present them with an infinite number of helpless victims. In EvE they go further - they expect to be taken seriously too The difference from those other games is that ninjas aren't lowlifes — they're practitioners of a purposefully designed profession in the game, and the ones with the entitlement issues are the mission-runners who want to be rewarded without having to work for it. The fact that some ninjas enjoy the tears that erupt when this sense of entitlement collides with the realities of the game is a different matter… Quote: If EvE has a driving force, it's that the most income is made by 0.0 territory owners. I think you're missing the idea of what we're talking about when we say "driving force". There is one driving force in EVE: the market. Everything revolves around it. Why gain ISK? So it can be exchanged on the market. Why manufacture? So it can be exchanged on the market. Why own territory? So you can control the manufacture and the ISK, and thus the market. This may be hidden below layers of rhetorics of "pew pewing for lols" or "just building my ships", but none of that can be done (or results in anything) without the market. Everything anyone does eventually leads back to how they interact with it and since the market is player-driven, there is no escape from the PvP (and that's not even going into how PvP must exist for the market to function — without it, what faux-PvE activities there are would have no purpose). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 10:17:00 - [63] I don't know where you get the idea all PVE players are anti PVP. Just because we think a mechanic may be badly thought out or not PVP at all that does not extend to other areas of the game does it? Ninja salvaging is fine by me but Its NOT PVP as there is no practical method for me to get the salvage first or have any recourse to the salvager. Its anti PVP in fact. If CCP wanted to encourage PVP they would flag it, simple as that. But they did not as they wanted a PVE vocation. Its carebear heaven being a ninja salvager. Your seeing things that are not there. New players often moan about gankers and scammers etc buts that because they do not understand the game and they leave fast enough anyway. Why are you playing this 'us and them' card all the time? We all in this game together. If you thing all these evil PVE'ers are coming in to wreck your game, provide evidence that stacks up. Ninja looting is not that evidence. I've been in a game that was wrecked by new players and I had to leave it, EVE is not one of them. CCP know that if they **** off the core players, who are mainly PVP, they lose the whole game as the PVE in this game sucks and most of the content is PVP or derived from PVP (the market and value of ISK). The whole of the next expansion is dealing with PVP issues.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.07 10:24:00 - [64] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 07/09/2009 10:24:49 Originally by: Zartanic I don't know where you get the idea all PVE players are anti PVP. Just because we think a mechanic may be badly thought out or not PVP at all that does not extend to other areas of the game does it? Ninja salvaging is fine by me but Its NOT PVP as there is no practical method for me to get the salvage first or have any recourse to the salvager. first of all, PvP only stands for Player vs. Player and implies no certain methods how players interact with each other within the game mechanics. there is combat pvp, where the one with better weapons and tactics wins. there is market pvp, where the one with more time or better market knowledge wins. there is salvage pvp, where the quickest salvager wins. there are surely more pvps out there... all the pvp types are not compatible with each other, you cant win market wars with combat means, for the same reason its stupid to request mechanics allowing fighting salvage pvp with other means than salvaging in competition. RUN FOR THE SALVAGE if you want it!! (or just move the ****ing out of motsu)
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.07 10:31:00 - [65] Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 10:32:22 I'm not in Motsu and I have never been ninja salvaged..yet anyway. And when It happens it won't bother me. But when it does happen, how do I get there first? An alt? Im not paying for two accounts when the ninja doesn't have to. PVP has to be interactive. There is no interaction in ninja salvaging. Also, I'm aware of all the types of PVP, its core to the game, I never said otherwise. Maybe your mixing me with the Op.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.07 10:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Zartanic Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 10:32:22 I'm not in Motsu and I have never been ninja salvaged..yet anyway. And when It happens it won't bother me. But when it does happen, how do I get there first? Hypothetically, you could use a different ship, fitted differently. Marauders come to mind. So do Ishtars. If you want mission runners to be immune from interference by other players, then you have to make other players immune from interference by mission runners. So long as missions dont give any rewards that can affect the greater game, then it's fine that they can be left alone. So if we change mission rewards to be solely LP, and change the LP store so that it only sells items and ships which can only be used for missioning, then fine. Until then, mission runners have no right - none, nada, nil, nullus, zip, zero - to demand that they be free from molestation.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.07 10:46:00 - [67] use marauder, put a salvager or your raven in cost of firepower, contract other people for salvaging your missions or whatever, its up to you managing to grab a public property before others do. And yes, many people use alts for that, just stop requesting comfortable game changes allowing you to grab the public stuff more effectively.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.07 10:46:00 - [68] Originally by: Zartanic I don't know where you get the idea all PVE players are anti PVP. Experience… Ok, that's not entirely true, and let me just be clear on this point: I'm not saying that this goes for all PvE players — I'm saying it goes for the archetypal "carebear". There are fortunately lots of people in EVE who engage in PvE:ish activities who understand perfectly well how their actions matter, how they have to compete with others, and that there are risks (albeit different kinds of risk) in everything. However, there are still a bunch of people who get upset when you interrupt them while they're "minding their own business" (which is an impossibility in the interconnected EVE universe); who refuse to see why they would have to compete for anything; and who somehow seem to think that their fancy stuff come from the T2/deadspace fairy. The latter group will generally think that missions, mining, exploration, manufacturing, or even trading, are PvE activities because they can do them without ever seeing — and certainly not shooting at — another player. The former group understands that mining and exploration is a competition (with other players) for limited resources; that manufacturing is meant to supply the market (i.e. other players) and does so by tying up services and facilities (so other players can't use them) and trying to be more efficient than others; and that trading is essentially trying to screw other players over for their (sometimes-)hard-earned ISK and stuff. This category understands that, while what they do might look like PvE, it is in fact very much a competitive activity — player vs. player… well, except for missions, of course. Thus we have the disconnect: some players — mainly mission runners — don't understand that they have to compete with others. They assume that they are pocketed away from the nasty evil PvPers. They assume that they can "do their own thing" and that anything that keeps them from doing so is wrong and bad and should be outlawed. So when they come across an activity (salvaging) that intersects their normal routine, but which is in fact entirely competitive, they get confused about why it works the way it works. Salvaging is intermixed with mission-running, sure, but it isn't the same thing. Salvaging — since it's a normal competitive activity — doesn't abide by the same rules as the anomaly that is non-competetive mission-running. This should also explain the "us and them" card, and why it's a problem. Quote: Ninja salvaging is fine by me but Its NOT PVP as there is no practical method for me to get the salvage first or have any recourse to the salvager. There is a metric **ton of methods and recourses — it's just that many mission runners refuse to learn/understand/use them. Again: you are there first. You have control over where and when the wrecks will appear. You can tractor the wrecks. You can reduce the chances of being scanned down. You can deny the salvager any earnings. If you choose the right ship, you can just outrun him. MRs keep harping on about how they have no means to compete. What they really mean is that they don't want to compete. Well, tough! Salvaging is a normal EVE activity: it's competetive, player vs. player, and if you choose to lose that competition by not participating, then that's your choice and your problem, not something that needs to be fixed with the activity itself (especially not given how much of an advantage the MR has in the competition already). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Lonestar123	Posted - 2009.09.07 11:23:00 - [69] Posting in a Ninja Salvaging whine thread.
none4u	Posted - 2009.09.07 12:20:00 - [70] You know there is a solution to this heavy duty issue....fun. have fun. Plain and simple. If I am right in the middle of running the mission, I just warp off to a station and log off for 30 minutes. Kills the mission and nothing for them to do. If the mission is finished and they show up, I take my ship and run right into them and bump them. Absolutely comical, because what I read on the chat channel, is "hey man, what the fuc..." I do not even bother giving them a reaction, I am just sitting at my keyboard LOL So make the best of it and oh yeah, the tears that they give are just absolutely yummy....

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