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Instant Reload FTW ...or is it?

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Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:02:00 - [1] Edited by: Saithe on 09/09/2009 22:07:33 Imaging yourself, chasing down a target. The battle is close, your opponents ship is out maneuvering you ever so slightly, and is slowly getting out of your range. You invested in a Rupture, and need to reload your ammo to increase your range. Begin tapping your fingers for 10 seconds while you wait. Oh no, your opponent has gotten away while you were reloading. Now enter the Amarr's Lasers. With the click of a button, they can instantly reload, completely bypassing the 10 second reload timer. It is my understanding that a laser's ammo type is listed as a crystal. However, there is another type of crystal listed as well. For Modulated Strip Miners. Mining Lasers It would be safe for me to assume that this is a flaw with the classification system. Every ammo type takes 10 seconds to reload. Except crystals. I believe that it was intended to allow Exhumers and Barges to instantly swap their crystal type on the fly. Unfortunately, this bled over to the Amarr's crystal ammo as well, due to it having the same classification as Strip Miner Crystals. There are 2 possible fix's for this dilemma. Reclassify Amarr laser ammo as a different type of crystal, or make all ammo reload instantly. Discuss. Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:08:00 - [2] The reload time is factored in in weapon balancing. You do know that lasers have the drawback of only doing EM/therm damage?
ViRUS Pottage Caldari THE FINAL STAND The Final Stand.	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:09:00 - [3] Scorch is already OP, atleast nerf insta reload. (or buff other t2 ammo) /signed _________ Originally by: CCP Taera May I have your stuff?
Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:15:00 - [4] Edited by: Saithe on 09/09/2009 22:14:51 Originally by: Nika Dekaia The reload time is factored in in weapon balancing. You do know that lasers have the drawback of only doing EM/therm damage? And did you know that blasters only do Kinetic/Thermal damage? Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)
ViRUS Pottage Caldari THE FINAL STAND The Final Stand.	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Nika Dekaia The reload time is factored in in weapon balancing. You do know that lasers have the drawback of only doing EM/therm damage? Yes, and hybrids only do kin/therm damage. That's no excuse. _________ Originally by: CCP Taera May I have your stuff?
SoC Darkord Minmatar Silentium Mortalitas Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:36:00 - [6] Edited by: SoC Darkord on 09/09/2009 22:37:08 Edited by: SoC Darkord on 09/09/2009 22:36:53 Originally by: ViRUS Pottage Scorch is already OP, atleast nerf insta reload. (or buff other t2 ammo) /signed This tbh, Instant ammo change is a pain if your fighting amarr only to find that the T1 crystals never run out, so no reload anyway and then they can instantly change ammo and keep hitting you when you try burn out of range. It needs fixing / changing
Evil Incarn8 Amarr Silentium Mortalitas Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:58:00 - [7] Originally by: SoC Darkord This tbh, Instant ammo change is a pain if your fighting amarr only to find that the T1 crystals never run out, so no reload anyway and then they can instantly change ammo and keep hitting you when you try burn out of range. It needs fixing / changing Then reduce our cap use or replace the ship bonus that allow lasers to be used with one to boost the weapon instead. All weapon systems are different, quick change ammo is the Amarrian benefit. You will find each weapon has a beneift to something somewhere.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.09.09 23:29:00 - [8] Next to the other Amarrian benefits of high damage, high optimal range, and great tracking at optimal range.
MirrorGod Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.09.09 23:30:00 - [9] Die in a fire Saithe
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.09.09 23:33:00 - [10] T1 crystals cant be even compared to faction ro t2 ammo. If their would be volatile, the cap use would have to be fixed or increase the dmg. You are obviously biased against ammars from alliance reasons but i use lasers normaly and i used only faction and now t2 ammo couse the t1 is worth nothing.
Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.09 23:44:00 - [11] I am not biased one way or the other. Yes, I would love to be able to instantly reload any ammo I use. There used to be a day, when Amarr could not instantly reload as they can now. This was broken due to allowing Mining Crystals to instantly reload, and both mining crystals and Amarr crystals having the same charge type classification. I am not saying omg nerf amarr, I am pointing out a flaw with a change, and offering both alternatives for discussion. If a change does happen, I could honestly care less which way it goes. I would just like to see something done about this. Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)
Schayol Sunkeeper Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.09 23:51:00 - [12] instant reload is balanced out due to the fact that lasers are the highest cap demanding weapon system. it's so high that fitting it on a ship without cap usage bonusses is next to impossible, and even if you manage it you are basically a big floating sign "please neut me" in space. scorch on the other hand is kinda OP
AtheistOfDoom The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.10 00:48:00 - [13] Lasers are also take up a lot of fitting space (both cpu and grid). But hey! Let's just have one ship and one weapon with all the same stats. Then everyone is happy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don Pellegrino	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper instant reload is balanced out due to the fact that lasers are the highest cap demanding weapon system. it's so high that fitting it on a ship without cap usage bonusses is next to impossible, and even if you manage it you are basically a big floating sign "please neut me" in space. scorch on the other hand is kinda OP but amarr ships have a huge capacitor, a huge cap recharge rate and almost don't use cap except from the lasers. There's something people often forget: Yes, the reload time is taken into account for the dps formula but keep in mind that lasers keep full efficency at any range because they can change crystal instantly, all they have to do, is change the crystal to always stay in optimal...
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.09.10 14:00:00 - [15] And next we get complaints that missiles always hit as well? I wouldn't mind decreasing the ammo loading to 5 seconds, and lower the rof or dmg done to compensate and keep the dps balanced for turrets. And everyone seems to have forgoten that in the past before they screwed with the em resists on armour that lasers were weaker in dps ranges as turrets. So they got a boost, now other whine about something else. Guess that is called evolution. (And no I don't fly laserboats) ---------------------------------- None of yet!
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.10 15:16:00 - [16] Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:19:20 Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:18:52 Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:17:11 Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:16:38 Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper instant reload is balanced out due to the fact that lasers are the highest cap demanding weapon system. it's so high that fitting it on a ship without cap usage bonusses is next to impossible, and even if you manage it you are basically a big floating sign "please neut me" in space. Amarr ships dont get a cap usage bonus, they get a high optimal, great tracking, no ammo usage, insta reloading bonus.. All Hybrid weapon ships have the same cap vunerability of lasers and none of the advantages. could even Quote: I wouldn't mind decreasing the ammo loading to 5 seconds Hell, you even make a skill to decrease loading time, and it would silence alot of the nerf laser posts.
Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.10 20:19:00 - [17] Edited by: Saithe on 10/09/2009 20:21:10 Originally by: Rastigan Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:19:20 Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:18:52 Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:17:11 Edited by: Rastigan on 10/09/2009 15:16:38 Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper instant reload is balanced out due to the fact that lasers are the highest cap demanding weapon system. it's so high that fitting it on a ship without cap usage bonusses is next to impossible, and even if you manage it you are basically a big floating sign "please neut me" in space. Amarr ships dont get a cap usage bonus, they get a high optimal, great tracking, no ammo usage, insta reloading bonus.. Not to mention there is a little known skill called Controlled Bursts that reduces cap use of any weapon requiring cap by 5% per level. Originally by: Rastigan All Hybrid weapon ships have the same cap vunerability of lasers and none of the advantages. could even Quote: I wouldn't mind decreasing the ammo loading to 5 seconds Hell, you even make a skill to decrease loading time, and it would silence alot of the nerf laser posts. I would like to, once again, state that I did not start this topic as a 'nerf lasers' post. I am merely pointing out a change that occurred due to changing something else. The skill to decrease reload time is nice, make it require Gunnery 4 and Weapon Upgrades 4. If you look at it from a physical point of view, it simply makes sense to require ammo to have a reload time, no matter what it is. You have to unload your current ammo, then load your new ammo. What I have a problem with is the fact that Amarr can instantly switch from close range to long range and keep the dps going. If I want to switch from Antimatter to Null, or even EMP to Barrage, I have to wait 10 seconds. Those 10 crucial seconds could be the difference of getting a kill or watching them escape. Once again, I am not saying 'omg nerf lasers'. I am simply asking for a more even playing field between every weapon type. And before anyone accuses me of 'not using lasers' I currently fly a Phantasm, and will soon be getting an Abaddon. Not to mention I used to fly Punishers back when there was no instant reload for lasers. Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)
Somal Thunder SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.09.10 20:48:00 - [18] Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:55:12 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:54:49 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 21:12:46 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 21:12:34 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 21:09:19 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 21:09:34 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 21:09:01 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 21:08:49 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:49:11 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 21:06:30 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:61:13 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:59:21 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:53:44 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:52:58 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:52:45 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:52:32 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:49:11 Edited by: Somal Thunder on 10/09/2009 20:48:30 Amarr ships that use lasers very often have NO way of dealing other than EM/Therm. Gallente ships have drones, with which you can deal any damage type you want. Caldari ships have missiles, with which you can deal any damage type you want. Minmatar ships can deal any damage type they want AND they have missiles, AND small autocannons can track anything.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.09.10 22:20:00 - [19] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 10/09/2009 22:20:56 Lasers have instant reload because they were designed as a high-optimal, low-falloff weapon system, and the idea was than an Amarr ship would rapidly change out crystals for new ones as an enemy ship approached or got further away to maintain maximum dps. If a ship is gaining range you have to change out crystals because it'll quickly be out of the current range of the lasers due to low falloff; if a ship is approaching you have to change crystals quickly to deal max damage. That's why lasers swap crystals instantly; it's a balance thing. Incidentally it also makes complete sense RP-wise; it's probably much easier to just swap lenses (think about rotating lenses in a microscope) than it is to open up a gun, take out whatever ammo is in it, and replace it with another hundred rounds or so. EDIT: Your guess that it was originally intended for miners to change out crystals on the fly is idiotic; what mining situation could possibly require such urgency. I'm pretty sure this is a troll.
Schayol Sunkeeper Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.10 22:24:00 - [20] Edited by: Schayol Sunkeeper on 10/09/2009 22:26:24 Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper instant reload is balanced out due to the fact that lasers are the highest cap demanding weapon system. it's so high that fitting it on a ship without cap usage bonusses is next to impossible, and even if you manage it you are basically a big floating sign "please neut me" in space. Amarr ships dont get a cap usage bonus, they get a high optimal, great tracking, no ammo usage, insta reloading bonus.. All Hybrid weapon ships have the same cap vunerability of lasers and none of the advantages. could even wait WHAT ? 2 of 3 amarr t1 battleship have laser cap bonusses ( 50% bonus to cap usage ) and even WITH them they demand more cap than hybrids. 2 of 4 t1 cruisers have cap bonusses towards lasers ( the other 2 happen to be the t1 logistic cruiser and a drone boat ) 4 of 6 t1 frigs have laser cap bonusses, the other 2 happen to be the mining frig, and a missile boat. the amarr laser hac has a bonus to laser cap usage, the other hac is a missile boat the amarr laser assault frigade has bonus for cap usage of lasers, the other assault frig is a missile boat both t1 battlecruisers get cap bonusses for lasers the destroyer gets a bonus for laser cap usage one command ship gets laser cap bonusses, the other one is a missile boat even the frikkin dreadnaught gets its cap bonus hell even the god damn titan even ships that don't necessarily need guns have them, the amarr HIC for example has, you bet it, 50% laser cap usage bonus exactly where is this "amarr don't get a cap usage bonus" you speak of ? on a different note: fitted on an all 5 geddon: [Armageddon, test] Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L -5 cap Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L -2.4 425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L -3.3 Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L -3.5 again, mind that this is WITH 50% bonus to cap usage of lasers while beeing unbonussed hybrids great tracking only applies to pulse lasers, beams are HORRIBLE in tracking. i already said that scorch is overpowered, no discussion here no ammo usage only applies to t1 crystals, actually if you make use of t2 / faction crystals it's the most expensive ammunition out there. you can't buy small amounts of ammunition if you don't expect to survive longer then for example 2 minutes, but you have to pay the full price everytime. instant reloading is not overpowered. it's amarr trait. accept that there are differences in weapon systems. em / therm only damage makes it hard against armor tanking targets ( kin / therm of hybrids are better in this regard, because therm is pretty good against shield and kin okayish against armor ). high cap demand limits your fitting options and makes you vulnerable to cap warfare.
Wrangler Al Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.11 00:26:00 - [21] I think changing shell/missile type should have a delay; but you should not need to reload the gun as it is a single barrel weapon and would be chain/belt/robotically fed from the arms you have in your hold So remove the reloading timer, but keep the timer to swap ammo type and drop it to 5 sec Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.11 00:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Terianna Eri EDIT: Your guess that it was originally intended for miners to change out crystals on the fly is idiotic; what mining situation could possibly require such urgency. I'm pretty sure this is a troll. I'm pretty sure you don't remember the days where neither Amarr Lasers did NOT instantly reload, nor did t2 strip lasers. When using a hulk in a belt, you chew through rocks pretty fast. Sometimes you don't have 2723698752 of the same rock sitting next to you, so CCP changed it to allow mining crystals to reload instantly. A side effect of this was allowing Amarr crystals to instantly reload as well, due to having the same charge classification. As far as I am aware, Amarr is the only race to even get bonus to cap use. Blasters and Lasers only do 1 type of damage, which is why you normally see an option to use either guns or missiles, or a combination of both. So for those of you that sit there and say 'Oh, Amarr can only deal EM and Therm damage' I ask you to look at the Sacrelige, and I believe the Vengeance. They have the option to use missiles, and even get a bonus to them. Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)
Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.11 09:41:00 - [23] Shameless self bump in hopes of a Dev noticing this thread, and commenting on the change. Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.11 10:14:00 - [24] Sounds reasonable enough until you actually try flying Amarr ships in earnest. Lasers have very little in the way of falloff and due to inferior tracking overall (except for rails which are poo tracking wise), you have to change ammo up to 4-5 times in a fight where other weapons can get away with one or two ammo changes. So by all means add ammo-change delay to crystals and increase laser tracking to above that of projectiles to compensate for having to fight deep in optimal ... Or we could add some midslots to the Amarr laser boats so they can better dictate range ... No matter what you do to try to balance it after adding a reload delay you end up having lasers either useless or omnipresent. Neither of which are good places to go. PS: A vast majority of laser boats carry MF and Scorch only, leaving a massive area where it is either in Falloff+ or having trouble tracking. Not as easy as you make it sound.
Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.11 10:31:00 - [25] I would love to be able to carry Antimatter and Null, or EMP and Barrage. I don't usually do that simply because if I have to reload to a longer range ammo, I have lost my target. The thing about Amarr is the fact that they can switch from Multifreq to Scorch instantly. Don't get me wrong, I love being able to instantly reload with Amarr now, no matter what ammo I am using. I would personally prefer a skill that reduces reload time by 10% per level. At level 5, this rank 3, or even 4 skill reduces your reload time from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. 6 seconds at level 4, 7 at 3, 8 at 2, and 9 at 1. This skill could require Gunnery 4/5 and Weapon Upgrades 4/5. It is a more advanced skill, yet still simple enough to get to 5 easily. Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)
Noa Fuyu Amarr Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.09.11 10:48:00 - [26] Did you know that in EFT you can use preferences you can include reload time into the DPS calculation. A thron with ion blasters and no dmg mods, drones and not factoring the reload time: 530dps Factoring in the Reload time: 521dps. omg Gal your lives are over. 847dps with drones btw, And thats including the drones reload time.... Funniest thing is when I first started playing everyone was saying Amarr sucked balls and they prolly did I guess, but now they own? haha, amusing. -------------------------- I would throw a hundred ships into the void just to see you crushed.
Azirapheal Amarr Armored Core Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.11 11:15:00 - [27] im liking this, our weapons have been almost entirely unchanged for years (small tracking boost here and there) when i started i was laughed at for flying amarr. instant crystal swap we can do without PROVIDING lasers no longer use cap or use cap on a par with hybrids. was almost 5m sp needed right there to just keep my guns firing for a few minutes. Originally by: Azirapheal i never ever thought id live to see the day.... that titans were nerfed for being FOTM HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA Originally by: CCP Zymurgist SoonÖ
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.09.11 12:48:00 - [28] Edited by: Typhado3 on 11/09/2009 12:53:06 seriously lazers are working as intended.... tracking might be a bit high but it's not lazers that are broken, they are the only ones that are working. nerfing lazers won't fix minmatars lack of alpha strike or any useful advantage (capless weapons isn't useful enough to be a weapons only advantage, yes I fly amarr too). nerfing lazers won't fix blasters problems with catching a target. as for lazers getting instant reload, that's racial flavouring I think. amarr never have to worry about reload and can have unlimited ammo. minmatar get the opposite in exchange for.... maybe our omni damageness which isn't as good I'd say since omni tanks in pvp and EMP is best choice for pve almost all of the time. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Schayol Sunkeeper Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.11 12:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Typhado3 seriously lazers are working as intended.... tracking might be a bit high but it's not lazers that are broken, they are the only ones that are working. nerfing lazers won't fix minmatars lack of alpha strike or any useful advantage (capless weapons isn't useful enough to be a weapons only advantage, yes I fly amarr too). nerfing lazers won't fix blasters problems with catching a target. as for lazers getting instant reload, that's racial flavouring I think. amarr never have to worry about reload and can have unlimited ammo. minmatar get the opposite in exchange for ????? this basically buff projectiles and hybrids, but leave lasers as they are. btw capless weapons ARE an advantage, but i admit that minmatar need more. there was once the idea to massively boost projectiles ROF, but limit their guns ammo, so they have to reload more often. just examples: make artilleries fire 5-10 shots in the timeframe of 3 seconds, and then they have to reload. this supports the alpha strike idea without making them too powerful. also you could use the reload to switch ammunition
Saithe Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.09.11 19:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Azirapheal im liking this, our weapons have been almost entirely unchanged for years (small tracking boost here and there) when i started i was laughed at for flying amarr. instant crystal swap we can do without PROVIDING lasers no longer use cap or use cap on a par with hybrids. was almost 5m sp needed right there to just keep my guns firing for a few minutes. Did you know that almost every Amarr ship gets a bonus to cap use? Not to mention the Controlled Bursts skill? My problem is not with one gun type being more powerful than another, lasers are high damage/low tracking, blasters are mid damage/mid tracking, and projectiles are low damage/high tracking; with missiles always hitting, taking speed into account. No, my problem lies with a possible unintended side effect of a different change. I am simply pointing this out, and asking if this was indeed intended (would want to hear this directly from CCP themselves) or not. If it was not intended, then I am proposing a change to either make all guns take 10 seconds to reload and add in a skill to reduce reload time, or make every gun instantly reload. If you take the skill route, that opens up the opportunity to add in a new ship bonus that reduces reload time by another 10%, thus giving instant reload if you have said skill to 5, and said reload skill to 5. Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal(lovespinkfont)

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