So is this the real reason the new Inventory was initially PUSHED onto TQ?

I understand and appreciate that you have in house dealines, but you seem to not be understanding that your customers would prefer a fully functional system before you try to work on something new.

Unless i've misread most of the feedback given in all the major threadnaughts thus far.

Thanks for great explanation. So we will probably get minmatar ships in ERNESTO branch in June?

Perforce?, ouch, I feel your pain

You guys should look into some 21st century source control like Git or Mercurial, each team working on its own branch until is ready to merge into the mainline.

I would like to congratulate CCP on getting this thing under control enough to get my mining workflow back to mostly normal. I am still dealing with a lack of right click options on my orca, having to instead open all of my bays from 3 different locations... The windows remembering themselves is making this tolerable. The shift+click nonsense is still frustrating me, and I really really really wish you guys would abandon it altogether for more conventional methods, like double click. I am looking forward to more fixes and I dearly hope that my concerns are among them.

oh yeah; and tabs!

I just hope it fixes the annoying problem of the game slowing down to about 0.2 fps every time i try to move my giant stack of mission loot into or out of a station container.

Hey CCP Soundwave (or any other CCP wants to try),

When I drop item in to another Corperation Corperation Hanager Array, in say the first division it just gives me this error "You have been denied access for the following reason: This office does not belong to your corporation." Yes it is another Corporation PoS structured but before the new UI system we could still drop in. The function needs to be restored or improved.

I keep missing the thread shift and these seems to be on deaf ear.

Soundwave,

Given the vast number of thread-naughts with comments and suggestions from every pod and his dog ; is there are definitive complete authoritative list of improvements that will be made at some point between UI - say between now and end of the year ?

Ramm

I remember similar statements refering to the PI UI which still has shortcut inconsistencies, unclear/undocumented data, and is generally a PITA to use. But when the release cadence changed the issues with that UI transformed into working as intended.

I think some of us has the expectation that when the rate of fixes is slowing down, we will have to settle with what we got or wait years for a fix.

Thanks for this, Goliath, it wasn't clear to a lot of us that development would continue on the UI.

I think the problem a lot of us have is that this seems like a pattern now, releasing features that many of the playerbase don't seem to want in a half-working state. I started playing Eve about a month before Incarna was released and I'm having some powerful flashbacks now.

Would it be possible for you to write a devblog detailing how CCP decides when a new feature is TQ-ready? I for one would greatly appreciate an inside view of the decision making process. I've considered logging into SISI to check out upcoming features and provide my input -- but as it seems that any feedback given about SISI is ignored, what incentive do I have to do so?

Keep in mind that since we pay to play this game we feel like we have a certain amount of ownership here. It's really frustrating to be in the position of shelling out dollars when you don't know if you're going to enjoy the experience you're paying for.

CCP is not giving us a timeline for that reason, they do not want to see a massive unsub from their playerbase while we wait for this to be fixed.

The key difference here is if the incursion runners didn't like the feature they don't have to use it. For instance the incursion runners were not happy and as a result decided to do other things in eve. Now with the UI everyone has to deal with it in some frame or fashion and just waiting for our input to be added to salvage this mess is getting annoying. Right click options, double click options. Getting rid of shift clicks, more windows etc. You've read it all.

Your comparison is like comparing apples to ornages.

We aren't asking for heads on a spike here (yet), we want stuff working at least as well as before "winferno" went live. If customers demanding a quality product is "vitriolic hate" to you then you are in the wrong business.

If you wish to avoid such reactions you should really think before you and release beta products onto your production server.

Your current implementation still does not meet standards. The fact your teams have been working so hard after release shows just how much additional work is still needed to make it a half way presentable product. If you really want people to stop being so upset, you are going to need to make amends. Simply fixing the system to the point it SHOULD have been at on the day it went live, is not doing this, its least amount of effort. Offering discount resubscriptions is likely to earn some partial good will. But why are we paying at all to do your beta work? I can say you wont be getting another dime out of me (or the vast majority of my corp either) until this is brought back up to a satisfactory level of interaction and performance.

- when i drag item into the container i want them to be unlocked if i have the container configured that way
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf
- windows for containers i opened should still be open when i dock and redock
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf

This is just one use case that is currently broken in so many ways, and you dare to complain that we complain...

Btw. as a SCRUM team you are responsible for the quality. How many automatic tests of any kind have you created when implementing this feature and how many already did exist beforehand?

Uh, less than 24 hours before deployment, and there's still no patch notes. Someone forget to follow procedure again? http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp

Oh, sorry. Perhaps that was my misunderstanding. Soundwave's dev blog said: "Those improvements are going out Thursday, June 7" and I read Explorer's note (above) incorrectly as being about that (it isn't; Explorer was referring to the date that the bigger Inferno 1.1.x release was going to Sisi). So, is there a release hitting Tranquility on the 7th?

(Just to clarify, Explorer, I don't expect patch notes for Sisi deployments before the Sisi deployment. There is such a thing as too much. I expect preliminary patch notes for stuff on Sisi after you're ready for us to beat on Sisi, and final patch notes for stuff going to Tranquility before release to Tranquility.)

Is there going to be a blog about the new minmatar ships? This is new to me, and I usually keep up to date with the dev blogs... I am very interested in the V3 project, as I am ready to hand CCP real money for the chance to give my Orca a cool paint job.

Ok; thanks for the clarification. So I renew my earlier request: where are the patch notes for Inferno 1.0.9? I would think that they would be available at least 24 hours prior to deployment.

Well dev blog about new .black format instead of .red should be kinda interesting. There must be reasons why this new format was implemented - maybe it's for client performance optimization brought by Team Gridlock, or maybe this is first step to ship customization (like user modified RGB values for ship material/masks/lights). We don't know this, but you do!

Where can I find any information about it? I don't need a dev blog... What ships?

Diffrent devs lol
I think its a shader that will get fixed in the 1.1 release need the rest of the sub-caps to be v-3ed

Awesome, thanks...

Cap ships get V-3ed when

this. a million times this.

Yep. This. Good devs and managers need to learn to admit their mistakes and bury their egos. Team/company success should be the driving force always, and customer satisfaction ultimately determines that.

Looting is STILL broken. Open a container in space, separate window (shift-click since dragging container off UI doesn't work), open another loot jetcan, press Loot ALL, window closes, and any further containers opened only open in main UI window. This broken behavior is still present after your June 7 "we saved up all the goodies and you won't have another for weeks" grand patch.

I will not re-subscribe for ONE MONTH for EACH WEEK that UI is broken.

Its the steps exactly as stated verse old functionality. Old fuctionality would stack jet cans and wrecks with a tab showing what each was in the same window. Now you have to drag each new container/ wreck off the main inventory window to your looting window by your overview. We want a window we can lock which works this way "if I access wreck/container it opens here not in the main window.

No while all the fuctionality on the new Inventory window is shift single click. All like fuctionality is shift double click when useing the overview. There is not a shift double click line in the overview right click menu or a loot all icon in the right click drop down menu so people do not have to move there mouse a million miles while looting.

functionality is not the same with this new ui as with the old.

4 corp hangers at a pos.

old system, right clcik 4 times all 28 hangers in 4 stacked windows. change to corp division 1, click each corp hanger wondow and you can see whats in all 4 hangers corp division 1 with 4 click, rinse repeat with all 4 corp hangers, division after division

new system shift click 28 times. 28 windows, now try to search through 4 corp hanger division 1's... go on, try.
now try division 2, 3 4, 5, 6 and 7...

oh it gets better, warp away( all 28 windows become your cargo window and dont auto close), come back.... do it again and again and again... i bet you jsut give up as its a nightmare

why have you removed right click menus that actually have a function ccp?

YOU ARE IN*ANE. SHIFT-RIGHT CLICK?! Get serious.

Have you ever even used a corp hangar?

The tree view is horrible when looting. I have to drag the MAIN UI off a convenient bar of other windows usually left near top of screen EVERYTIME I loot. And, it remembers nothing. And, I have to resize it, position it, and make it transparent, or I can't move and loot at the same time.

SHIFT-RIGHT CLICK!!! Tell me one other REAL piece of software that does this kind of nonsense.

Swap that around and some of us would be happy. Why does this abominiation of a UI try to take control of everything I do unless I hold up the holy cross (shift key)?

Fair enough. My specific troubles are that the corp hangar does not open in a tabbed hangar view exactly like the old one with a single click of a single button. I should not have to spin my chair and hold keys down to get what I had before with a simple single click.

Except Shift-clicking on a pos array structure, either visually or from the overview does nothing. Shift-double-click causes you to approach the array only. Shift-click (and shift-dbl-click) from the tree on an array either expands or collapses the divisions.

Only way I have found to open multiple inventory windows is to shift-double-click cans I carry in my cargobay. So I get an inventory window for my ship caargo, and then one for each can. Then I have to keep the damn tree active (or expand it out each time) on each one so i can change divisions as I move minz, etc around between arrays to run jobs. I generally have a minimum of 4 windows open at one time when sitting at my tower doing work.

This UI has made working at a pos an absolute PITA.

And you just pointed out the biggest problem with the whole mess. Thank you.

CCP Goliath, you want to make a hundred thousand-- or more-- Eve users happy? Make an option to reverse SHIFT CLICK and CLICK. This *should* get the functionality of the old Inventory back to normal, assuming you get all the presistence problems worked out.

Of course, I think this entire UI nonsense is only to let the soon-to-come masses of Dust bunnies be comfortable with what they already know-- Windows Explorer. Damned be the old users of Eve.

You can say whatever you want. Nothing changes the fact that it's harder now. It's more clicks now. It's not intuitive. For God's sake it even requires keyboard input now to do things that before were a single left click of the mouse. If I only open one inventory window a day I could live with that. Multiply it a thousand fold and bask in the glow of the worst UI in the universe.

Agreed. And CCP Goliath, for the crap you had to put up with in this thread, I think you deserve a cookie. Sadly, I don't think shipping food Internationally is smiled upon.

About shortcut to DEV wrote in May 23-24 (in forum).
Today on June 8.
Passed 2 weeks.
Nice....

CCP still has a reference server with the old code available. They've admitted that, or at least Goliath did.

CCP doesn't believe the players when they say things were easier with the old method. This is in spite of the fact that the players play this game more than they do. They design and program the game. That's different than being an end-user.


CCP, if you really and truly want to make this a better inventory management interface, open up the reference server (or a copy of it) to players for a month or two. Disable the activation of modules, if you think people will just try to grief. Let us make images and videos of how we used to do things, and then we can make comparison images and videos of how we have to do those same things now.

Then, again assuming you aren't just stringing us along here until the noise dies down, you can see and understand what everyone is saying. Then you can understand the position players are coming from, and why this new inventory is a major step backwards.

CCP, Will you do this? Do you care about letting the players help you understand why they are complaining?

This could also call their bluff. If people are complaining just to complain, and the old inventory management interface was inferior to the new one, you could see that as well. And you could demonstrate that as well.


Note: "Can't do this" is not an acceptable answer. Virtual machines are cheap, and you already have a reference copy running as it is, so cloning that is easier than standing one up from backups. If you say this, it really means you won't bother spending the time to do it or don't think it's important enough to spend time setting this up, so just say that instead.

It wasn't an admission, we have a massive number of legacy builds because we need to test against previous functionality. It's also not a case of us not believing people, it would be naive to assume that people are actively lying to us about a system. We can't open our reference servers to the public however as they have sensitive data on them (all internal mirrors are unpruned and remirroring for a reference server would cause a bunch of conflicts). It's also not quite as simple as just whacking a VM based server up and letting that be public, you're just going to have to take my word for that.

CCP has to think about it, why it was necessary to bring out two new forum rules.
Sure the hate and upcoming increased personal attack on CCP employees is not tolerable. But at least obvious. It is not so, that the majority of the eve community is upset because CCP did a good job or listened to the customer. It is because they force unwanted and unfinished things that where far away from ANY usability or improvement and completely ignore ALL customers who pays to play the game and do not want to test it; or being unable to play the game any longer because of this absolute terrible UI. It is a fact that barely one loves this UI. Have a look at all the different threads in the forum. (If you are able to find all of them.)

As it is now: CCP denies every statement what they will do in the FUTURE. They only let us know little things about the next week. What comes next month? What will you bring MORE to improve the UI? Just GÇ£ImprovementsGÇ¥ and GÇ£Listened feedbackGÇ¥ is not enough to calm down the player base who donGÇÖt like the unified inventory.
I had a small GÇ£conversionGÇ¥ with two CCPGÇÖs in another thread. And not surprisingly; all I got was nothing constructive from them. I can not write or link the comments from them because they are deleted and a reconstruction from my memory would not give a proper picture.

So I would really suggest to bring a information website where all interested people can have a look at the planned changes for this UI. I, and perhaps many others, do not need a tight fit high-tech masterplan with all details and the correct time frame.
Just a list with all ideas which will come back to this UI. And an explanation why something will not come back. Denial of a right click menu or an icon at the NeoCom would be not a good idea. It would be easy to implement and would help players. Why deny this changes? That makes no sense.

The DEVGÇÖs and CCPGÇÖs are under enormous pressure. But its not the fault of the paying customer. Its CCPGÇÖs and its release dogma fault. So please stop forcing and do not ban people because they feel ignored from you and want a statement from you. Say something more than just empty phrases like GÇ£ImprovementsGÇ¥ and so on. WHAT exact do you plan? Why do you not rebuild (I want not a roll back) the old UI and degrade this unified UI to the asset window as many others asked?

I do not like your filters. WHY? I have containers which I can not access with this current UI.
I do not like the est. price calculation. It is always wrong, not useable and causes lag and calculation time.
I do not like to have elements into one window that doesnGÇÖt belong together.
I do not like to have more shortcuts or SHIFT+X solutions to have my windows back!
I just want double clicks and right click options and icons in the NeoCom. (without any shift)

Think about it and please react. Someone in the forum stated GÇ£Please stop beginning your DevBlogs with GÇÿHello SpacefriendsGÇÖ. At this point we are no friends anymore.GÇ¥
This alone should show the mood of many players at present.
Continue to act as you do since 22.05.2012 and EVE will possibly not reach the 10th anniversary.

CCP is your company; EVE is your child; but without enough customers you can not pay your bills and employ your people or develop the game. I am at the point where EVE has no fun for me anymore. Sadly- but it is the hard fact.

Callidus Dux
(no gameplay since 22.05.2012)

SLAM! Lol, and about damn time, it seems to always be a select subset of people every f*cking time theres a feature release that are just purely bitching nonstop with no constructive criticism....

And then we get people wondering why we have no f*cking devblogs, no f*cking dev to player discussions, its because EVERY TIME THEY SAY SOMETHING THIS SUBSET IS CASTRATING THEM!

For the love of god file bug reports, drop notes on your thoughts on changes, and tweaks that have been made, and maybe even the suggestions, why the hell is there call for peoples jobs and other personal attacks, and **** its rediculous!

For the love of god i work for an ISP and i've had a$$hole customers that have come in and got upset but even they later apologize, this group just is insanely poor mannered and idiotic, bitching and RANTING isn't going to result i anything but Goliath having to ban and erase more people and threads...

how about people follow the awesome eve motto of HTFU!


That said, Goliath any update when we're gonna get any devblogs on new modules, and new stuff in the pipeline?

It may well be only 113 unique users. In this thread. I know of at least three more threads I have posted in with 50+ pages. There are probably a couple threads more. There may also be some complaints delivered via the bug reporting system. However, most players never post at all. It's the same with a bad restaurant, most people do not complain, they simply do not come back.

Of those who do post the vast majority is deeply dissatisfied with the UI and CCP's handling of it.

You can not deny there is no thread with 100+ unique users that express their happiness about the UI.

You can not deny that what has been accomplished with few clicks before now takes more clicks and takes more time than before.
You can not deny that opening a second window involves the keyboard - that was not required before.
You can not deny that ship cargo does not open on login as it did before.
You can not deny the lag to display the windows' content when entering a station, which was not a problem before.
You can not deny that the UI is buggy - OK, that counts for all new content, but that does not mean it has to be that way.
You can not deny, that there is still no proper explanation as to why you forced the UI upon us.
You can not deny there was no warning from the SiSi users.

You can deny to revert back to the old system - if you can make the UI work for us then these threads go dead. You may even get a thank you here and there.

You may keep the UI without addressing our suggestions and problems. But people will quit - certainly not a majority, otherwise you would have more posts here. But its a revenue cut that is easily avoidable.

In business its always easier to keep your customer happy so they come back for more (in this case stay on) than to accquire new customers.

Doesnt get around the fact that the space i have in the station window is otherwise unused. Also doesnt get around the fact that if that were gone i would have a single item height window to find everything.
I would rather quit than give more space to a container window, just because it shares space with my ships.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwkqcVkmKpg please watch it and see what a botch us people who actually play the game are dealing with.

I have done so for years. Theres a lot of inconsistent behaviour there. But of course you would know that because you obviously watched my video.

Whoa. As the lead Quality Assurance human resource, it is hard to imagine that Sisi feedback and bug generation wouldn't be absolutely critical to your work just prior to a patch release.

Many of the current design challenges and bugs on Tranquility were addressed via Sisi feedback and published to Tranquility w/o change.

You have hundreds of users banging away on Sisi generating defect reports + well-articulated feedback and you are disassociating yourself from that element of a patch? Something does not sound right with that scenario.

I look forward to reading the dev blog(s) detailing how and when the QA personnel get involved with a project at CCP.

Goliath, what about those questions then ?

Maybe it is overstated but maybe gauging the reaction from counting forum posts is not very accurate either.

From the people I know in game there are far more who think the new inventory is currently inferior to the old one to those that prefer it. Most of them appear resigned to putting up with it rather than running to the forums to moan. Obviously this is only anecdotal but I still think you are foolish if you believe the people unhappy with it are a small group.

Will there be a player questionnaire on Inferno like there was on Cruicble?

This is a feedback thread. As I find new issues I add more posts about them.
I don't feel guilty or something for multi-posting.
I did not know I also had the "perma spinning till you relog 2-3 times" bug at first so I added it later.
I posted alternate solutions with screenshots about how to make the layout take less screen real estate. I actually feel I did a good thing to add such a post.
I did not know my 9 seconds of wait would turn into 39 for some reason. 39 is WAY too long so here I go, I posted about it again.

Not feeling guilty.

Ummm, well not really.

You did a bit of skirting around some questions but have not answered these two.

Since this whole fiasco started, every single Dev has avoided the second of those questions. We have had the odd vague response about something like GÇ£it was a design decision to facilitate other featuresGÇ¥.

So how about an actual answer this time ?

I got an idea! (So much for multi-posting).

Since we got this new Neocom, could you please modify the inventory button as follows:

1) You add a new menu in the Open EvE menu

2) The new menu contains icons to open current ship inventory, ships hangar, corp hangar, items hangar.

Pronto, everyone are happy!

New players will just hit the 1 inventory button they get when they install the game.

We old players find those icons and drag them on our Neocom hot bar and are happy.

Please doooo eeeet!

...

They would also never, ever dismiss people complaining about the same thing as a vocal minority. They would ask where is it that we're doing wrong and how can we correct it.

...This group of people, this 'vocal minority' have found and highlighted so many bugs in UI, you should be thanking them for showing how lacking your QA protocols are.

...

Now Goliath, you say you can't speak as to Sisi feedback. I urge you to go and read that original feedback thread and you will see that every bug fix you've had to do since inferno with UI could've been avoided if you'd acted on it. How much of yours, Soundwaves and others time could've saved?

...

I spammed it in Jita. Jita should be pretty unbiased i'd say. Besides what makes you think that people who post and read on forums are biased? Because they are more of power users?


I agree that there is more detail to it but the basic problem right now seems to be that CCP doesn't believe that enough people out there really dislike this new UI and would rather go back to the old UI.

It appears there are some weird shenanigans going on..

first i posted a poll:
http://gopollgo.com/is-inferno-unified-ui-in-eve-better-than-the-old-ui

i'm looking at it right now. There's 63/8/2/22 vote coming from the UK which works out to 66% fantastic :)
This is the link CCP Goliath replied to. I suspect it was distributed to CCP UK office.

Now if you look at this poll which i modified and it was distributed at 5 major trade hubs:
http://gopollgo.com/is-unified-inventory-in-eve-inferno-expansion-better-than-the-old-inventory

The numbers are completely different
37/55/52/80 for the UK, making it 17/25/23/36% for fantastic/better/worse/terrible

The only plausible conclusion seems to be that CCP actually bothered to doctor the first poll that I posted. I'm not sure why they would bother to do that but I can't think of any other explanation..

And for everyone else. It appears to be way past time to prod our Alliance and Corp mates into breaking their silence. I, like many of you, have heard complaints from people all over new eden, who never visit the forums. In CCP's mind, silence is approval.



I strongly urge everyone else to do the same