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The Easy Ninga Salvage Solution

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Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.09.11 10:43:00 - [1] Too easy to solve with a Nerf bat. Firstly ... there never used to be salvage, it was added as a "sub profession" with new skills to be trained, new equipment and provides raw materials for rigs. Secondly ... CCP stand by their design brief that Salvage was not designed as a buff for missioners. So - simple ... get rid of salvage from missions...even from belt rats as well if you want. Ships drop loot, but no wrecks.. not even drone wrecks. To keep salvage in the game, just keep a running total of wrecks generated each day, and during DT, randomly generate "Debris Fields" that contain the wrecks (but no loot) that was generated during the previous day. Random number between 1 and 10 each day and then divide the wrecks between them. A complete mix of drones and Level 1 through Level 4 mission NPCs (and the odd player ship or two...) These "Debris Fields" are the sites of old long forgotten battles and remains of recent skirmishes between a poor trading caravan and an NPC/drone ambush. The fields must be scanned down (like grav sites) and only last 1 day (like worm holes) and are there for salvaging just like Roid belts are there for mining. You could even get belt rats that are sized according to the average value of the wrecks, making them bigger and nastier than roid belt rats ... give the salvagers a challenge :) This keeps salvaging in the game, separates missioners from "ninjas", stops missioners whining about salvage that CCP has stated over and over again is not theirs anyway and creates a new site type to scan down. Of course you can always can flip a salvager just as you would a miner if you want some PvP. Note that debris fields would have a huge ISK value, so they would have to be hard to scan down, may be sparse and attract lots of (or large) rats ... to balance the risk. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Jint Hikaru OffWorld Exploration Inc	Posted - 2009.09.11 11:01:00 - [2] To be honest that is not a bad idea, however it does suffer from a few problems. You are restricting salvage to only the players who can scan down a "hard to scan down" site. You are also placing the salvage that would have been spread around all the mission runners (yes and ninjas), to a select few people who manage to find these 1 to 10 fields each day. But my biggest dislike to this idea, is you are removing contact between players! I understand that contact between mission runner and ninja usually produces doscord, but thats what this game is all about. ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.09.11 13:09:00 - [3] Interesting idea, sure deserves some thought... but you touch on my pet pew, Alowing us to scan wrecks... since it is apperantly allready harder to scan somehting in deadspace, scanning wreck fields in despawned missions, should be easeier, hence pacifing the pesky MR... But i like the post... and i agree with the second poster... so start cracking at it! BTW: QI is the best, greatest show God gave mankind, on this earth! (parafrasing Hanity) Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.09.11 14:13:00 - [4] If this was done, I would still be scanning down missionrunners, just to take their loot and tears. ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2009.09.11 14:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Paul Clavet If this was done, I would still be scanning down missionrunners, just to take their loot and tears. this.
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2009.09.11 14:29:00 - [6] Anyway, to add to the OP's point: 1. CCP should make it clear that wrecks belongs to -anyone-. Which means: separate wreck and loot, the loot end up in a jetcan and the wreck end up on its own, and can be tractored and salvaged by anyone. At the moment, the wreck have a corp name-tag on it which makes some mission runner think its "theirs". 2. If CCP intend to reduce high-sec piracy, they can simply put a timer (say, 5 minutes) on the loot: within the timer, only the owner of the loot can grab it, after that, the loot is designated as "abandoned" anyone can grab with without criminal flagging. However, this will kinda dumb the game down and takes away some fun loot-flippers seem to enjoy. -narf
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.09.11 15:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Jint Hikaru To be honest that is not a bad idea, however it does suffer from a few problems. You are restricting salvage to only the players who can scan down a "hard to scan down" site. You are also placing the salvage that would have been spread around all the mission runners (yes and ninjas), to a select few people who manage to find these 1 to 10 fields each day. But my biggest dislike to this idea, is you are removing contact between players! I understand that contact between mission runner and ninja usually produces doscord, but thats what this game is all about. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.09.11 16:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Jint Hikaru You are also placing the salvage that would have been spread around all the mission runners (yes and ninjas), to a select few people who manage to find these 1 to 10 fields each day. Hmm .. jut re-read this .... Yes .. .too much salvage amongst too few people... maybe it would have to be more debris sites, and easier to scan down... make it more of a free for all. Plus with more sites, a band of Player Pirates could not locate and lock down 10-50% of the salvage available. Thy could only control a smaller fraction at any one time. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Vhan	Posted - 2009.09.11 16:38:00 - [9] Edited by: Vhan on 11/09/2009 16:38:46 Originally by: nafiy gnaw Anyway, to add to the OP's point: 1. CCP should make it clear that wrecks belongs to -anyone-. Which means: separate wreck and loot, the loot end up in a jetcan and the wreck end up on its own, and can be tractored and salvaged by anyone. At the moment, the wreck have a corp name-tag on it which makes some mission runner think its "theirs". 2. If CCP intend to reduce high-sec piracy, they can simply put a timer (say, 5 minutes) on the loot: within the timer, only the owner of the loot can grab it, after that, the loot is designated as "abandoned" anyone can grab with without criminal flagging. However, this will kinda dumb the game down and takes away some fun loot-flippers seem to enjoy. -narf 1) Yeah, misleading information is never good for a game. More information should be displayed on the wreck clearing up that the wreck's contents belong to someone, but can be freely salvaged. 2) This will not solve folks that scan down mission runners and alpha-strike ships that the mission runner whittled down for the kill. The fundamental problem is that people can be scanned down, while in high security deadspace. I know the reason for this is to keep players in poor standing visible for attack (not letting them hide in deadspace). However, it could be reduced by not allowing scanning of deadspace regions with players in good standing in them. Keep in mind that scanning is not just for ships and there is plenty to do with scanners.
Bentakhar	Posted - 2009.09.11 16:55:00 - [10] Interesting idea, but by adding rats in the salvage sites, u make them pretty much like a mission site. and missionrunners are gonna do that too:) Debris field could (and should) exist the way you described (needs to be scanned, lasts one day etc...) it would give the salvager a real profession. pretty much like hacking and archaeology. But instead of rats in those sites i would put maybe hazardous clouds / electrical storms / debris rain / explosions from the wrecks /mines that can give you a hard time! :) nothing that can alpha a Tanked BS... just something to make it challengy.
Riorden	Posted - 2009.09.12 00:35:00 - [11] Hrm, even easier fix - get rid of the ridiculous idea that salvage belongs to anyone. Put a 1 hr timer on a wreck, after which anyone can salvage it, but before which, the wreck belongs to the pilot who shot it down.
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.09.12 01:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Riorden Hrm, even easier fix - get rid of the ridiculous idea that salvage belongs to anyone. Ok Originally by: Riorden Put a 1 hr timer on a wreck, after which anyone can salvage it, but before which, the wreck belongs to the pilot who shot it down. Wait, what? No seriously what? I could have sworn those two statements just contradicted each other. --- Koyama Ise, Applying logic in areas where it is logical to do so.
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare Gypsy Nation	Posted - 2009.09.12 02:13:00 - [13] Not a bad idea to be honest, it really isn't horrible, but it does touch on the problems others have brought up in this post, which I won't waste your time by re posting, and also this... You would especially turn salvaging into a mining profession. Different equipment and skills, but the same idea. You warp to a debris field (belt), with a salvager (retriever/hulk) fitted with salvagers (strip miners) and they are going to **** the belts and move on. I doubt anyone will risk a possibly being concorded, possibly not, and to completely remove concord creates the problem of placing "0.0 bubbles" in high sec. Personally mining is the last thing I want to do in this game, seriously, the very last. Salvaging (which I tried twice to get the feel, but isn't a profession of mine) is there to provide interaction, a challange to players, and something with maybe a little bit of adrenalin and tears. Not 1) warp to belt 2) turn on salvagers 3) go afk, repeat 2 and 3 for a few hours. Again though, a good, original idea that is thankfully whine free. Thank you Ozone!
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.12 02:35:00 - [14] The OPs suggestion is incorrect in assuming there is a problem. Ninja salvaging is perfectly legitimate, and CCP has confirmed repeatedly that it is working as intended.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.12 02:42:00 - [15] I think that the ninja-salvager problem would disappear if we removed missions from highsec.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.09.12 03:03:00 - [16] If you remove mission salvage and replace with salvage sites like the OP describes, then there will be no salvage for most players. Corps will blitz the sites every day just after DT, same as happens to asteroid belts. Now, I agree there SHOULD be specific salvage plexs. Its an oversight. But the current mission system is just fine. Sometimes ninjas will nab salvage. Thats not a problem. Sometimes ******ed mission runners will get shot up because they haven't figured out that loosing a small amount of loot and salvage isn't worth loosing their multi-billion isk making ship. Ninjaing is a legitimate profession, and in all honesty, you don't make much money out of. People do it because its fun. It all adds an aspect of non-direct PvP to mission running. Other players can effect your income. Thats how it should be.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.12 04:20:00 - [17] I think the ninja salvage "problem" will disappear as soon as people realize that the current salvage situation is exactly what CCP intended to happen, and therefore will not be changed.
FISHANDCHIPS	Posted - 2009.09.12 06:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Gypsio III I think that the ninja-salvager problem would disappear if we removed missions from highsec. and then what would the 1 week olds do to make some money mining
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.12 10:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Uronksur Suth The OPs suggestion is incorrect in assuming there is a problem. Ninja salvaging is perfectly legitimate, and CCP has confirmed repeatedly that it is working as intended. The 'problem' that would be solved is the endless forum spam from crying mission runners.... Tbh, it's easily solved... Give mission wrecks only a pitiful amount of salvage, and spread far more wrecks around to be found by explanation. Maybe even randomly spawn a few smaller wrecks in 'roid belts, around gates, at planets and moons for noobs to find and salvage. Mission runners could no longer cry 'My Wrecks!!!', people liking to annoy MR's could still scan them down and flip their loot, and mission running income would be dealt a small needed nerf. Win for all!!!! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.09.12 11:02:00 - [20] Originally by: Uronksur Suth The OPs suggestion is incorrect in assuming there is a problem. Ninja salvaging is perfectly legitimate, and CCP has confirmed repeatedly that it is working as intended. I don't think that Ninja Salvaging is a problem. I trained up my astrometrics (?) skills so that I could scan down mission runners and go salvaging. The "problem" is all the whinging carebear mission runners. That is the problem I am trying to solve. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.09.12 11:09:00 - [21] Originally by: BeanBagKing You would especially turn salvaging into a mining profession. Different equipment and skills, but the same idea. You warp to a debris field (belt), with a salvager (retriever/hulk) fitted with salvagers (strip miners) and they are going to **** the belts and move on. I doubt anyone will risk a possibly being concorded, possibly not, and to completely remove concord creates the problem of placing "0.0 bubbles" in high sec. Yeah .. I modelled it on Mining, since that it a mechanism that actually does work. To make it different I thought it best that sites had to be scanned (unlike mining), would appear in different locations every day (unlike mining), the salvage would more random (unlike the guaranteed returns from mining) would require a lot more travel if the wrecks were a long distance apart (unlike mining) and could be more dangerous if you tweak the CONCORD response. Not a Low Sec bubble... but not as safe as High Sec either...opening up the possibility for more PvP. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.09.12 16:38:00 - [22] Soooo... you like ninja salvaging, so you want to make it more like mining. OK. Noted. ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Bestofworst Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.12 16:41:00 - [23] Originally by: Ozone71 Originally by: Uronksur Suth The OPs suggestion is incorrect in assuming there is a problem. Ninja salvaging is perfectly legitimate, and CCP has confirmed repeatedly that it is working as intended. The "problem" is all the whinging carebear mission runners. That is the problem I am trying to solve. That too, is not a problem, but a motivation. ---- My Music Anything I say is only what I think. If you have a problem with me, take it up with me.
Mike C Caldari Ipuvaepe Industries	Posted - 2009.09.12 16:42:00 - [24] Originally by: nafiy gnaw 1. CCP should make it clear that wrecks belongs to -anyone-. Which means: separate wreck and loot, the loot end up in a jetcan and the wreck end up on its own, and can be tractored and salvaged by anyone. At the moment, the wreck have a corp name-tag on it which makes some mission runner think its "theirs". Well first, they have already made it QUITE clear. Second, this a good idea. Salvage does not and never has belonged to the owner of the wreck. __________________________________________________ Originally by: Mike C Trolls - We keep Humanity alive... and kicking...
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.12 20:32:00 - [25] I think things should be left as they are. I have far too much fun, and make way too much money by salvaging other people's wrecks.
CaptainQuick	Posted - 2009.09.12 21:37:00 - [26] EASY FIX simply make it where only the mission runner can salvage or loot thier own stuff....if fleeted then member of that fleet can help as well...that would end the idiot ninja's & can flippers to apear into the missions!!!
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.09.12 22:59:00 - [27] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 12/09/2009 22:59:33 Originally by: Paul Clavet If this was done, I would still be scanning down missionrunners, just to take their loot and tears. So then what's the problem with salvage ninga flagging?
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.09.12 23:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Ozone71 Originally by: Jint Hikaru But my biggest dislike to this idea, is you are removing contact between players! I understand that contact between mission runner and ninja usually produces doscord, but thats what this game is all about. True... so I had another idea.. .to make debris sites considered as "Bad Luck" by CONCORD pilots .. you know .. Spaceship graveyards... you don't want to be going there.... If you commit a CONCORDABLE offence... sometimes CONCORD turns up.. sometimes not. It gives pirates a place to come and play PvP in High sec, but not totally risk free for them either as CONCORD will arrive ...sometimes... and maybe arrive late. (again, could linked to security status so in sec 1.0, they turn up... but late... and in 0.5 its a coin toss... and in low and null sec .. forget it) Salvage can be quite valuable, so why not make it a dangerous game to play? The problem I fear with this idea will be the market effects from making salvage a harder commodity to come by. Note that you would also want to ensure that they are not CONCORD "safe" zones... ie.. if you commit an offence at a belt and then warp to a debris site CONCORD will still hunt you down. Which may annoy Pirates in the area, since attracting CONCORD to the site is a sure fire way to keep their line of business quiet until the cops move along. Psh, sounds like you'd be making salvage easier to obtain. If all I had to do was scan down wrecks or a grav site to get everyeones salvage from the day before, I'd happily give up missions. Well untill the salavage market crashed anyway. Then it'd be onto whatever else was most profitable.
ServantOfMask Minmatar Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.09.12 23:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Now, I agree there SHOULD be specific salvage plexs. Its an oversight. they exist, there are lots of them. they just don't spawn in high-sec afaik. if people want to run plexes for salvage go to nullsec. it is ridiculously easy to ninja-plex in 0.0 and fecking hard as hell to exterminate the ninja's that know their stuff. the ONLY problem with ninja salvaging is the ridiculous notion of my tractor beams having a conscience. by all rights everyone should be able to tractor everyone's wrecks anywhere. if ccp decides to enforce an arbitrary restriction on that to protect empire mission runners then open it to low-sec/ null-sec players. quite frankly im off the school of thought that thinks even owning a wreck is silly, it and all things contained in it are newly created garbage. first come first serve. why do i continue to "own" the wreck of the ship that i just lost to you in combat? "spoils go to the victor" and all that jazz. "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:58:00 - [30] Originally by: ServantOfMask Originally by: Katarlia Simov Now, I agree there SHOULD be specific salvage plexs. Its an oversight. they exist, there are lots of them. they just don't spawn in high-sec afaik. if people want to run plexes for salvage go to nullsec. it is ridiculously easy to ninja-plex in 0.0 and fecking hard as hell to exterminate the ninja's that know their stuff. the ONLY problem with ninja salvaging is the ridiculous notion of my tractor beams having a conscience. by all rights everyone should be able to tractor everyone's wrecks anywhere. if ccp decides to enforce an arbitrary restriction on that to protect empire mission runners then open it to low-sec/ null-sec players. quite frankly im off the school of thought that thinks even owning a wreck is silly, it and all things contained in it are newly created garbage. first come first serve. why do i continue to "own" the wreck of the ship that i just lost to you in combat? "spoils go to the victor" and all that jazz. Spoils to the victor would suggest there was combat. Where is the combat in high sec ninga salvaging? Spoils to the victor would also mean whoever blew up a ship would have claim on the wreck and anything he might want out of it, as long as he was willing to fight for it. Hm, sounds like pvp to me. But concord wont let us fight over salvage will they? BTW if a wreck is "garbage" why do you care at all?

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