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Discussing: The Caldari Problem (RR BS)

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xxxak Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.16 20:15:00 - [1] Edited by: xxxak on 16/09/2009 20:23:10 Many people complain about Minmitar BS, saying that artillery and projectiles both have horrible flaws. Others complain about Gallente, noting that their short range BS don't have the speed to get to optimal range (3km). I agree. My problem is Caldari, and fleet PvP. Years ago, when I started playing EVE, most "Fleet" PvP consisted of 50 vs 50 to 150 vs 150 BS shooting at each other from 150km away, with some support ships tackling and doing Ewar. The Raven was always very questionable, but the Rokh was a reasonable Caldari fleet ship. Today, many fleet battles (as well as many smaller engagements) occur at point blank ranges with remote reps and armor tanks being absolutely mandatory. The problem summarized: Caldari ships do laughable DPS with fleet fits and are usually Auto-Primary because everyone knows their resists and EHP will fall on the low end of the scale and/or they are shield tanked. The Rokh is a pure shield tanker and fails miserably. The Raven also fails because it cannot armor tank and fit damage mods + tank. In short, today, the Caldari race is left without a viable fleet PvP ship. BEFORE I AM ACCUSED OF BIAS, note that I can fly ALL FOUR RACES OF BS. I only choose to fly Amarr, however, because of its obvious superiority. I am not asking for an Amarr nerf, or even a laser nerf. I am merely asking that the Caldari be given ONE, single, viable fleet pvp DAMAGE oriented ship. Responses to anticipated counters to my arguments: 1) The Scorp ECM boat does not fill the dps-ship role I am talking about because ECM boats are (almost) always primary. 2) The Raven is NOT a reasonable alternative, look at its time to hit, effective DPS, and armor resists with a fleet fit. It is a joke. 3) The Rokh is barely but not really a reasonable answer. Look at its effective DPS, and armor resists with a fleet fit. It is a joke. 4) Minimtar and Gallente deserve boosts too. I agree. At least the Gallente can properly armor tank, and thus are not auto-primary in fleets. Solution: Remove the Rokh range bonus and give it a damage bonus and +1 low slot so it can properly armor tank. .
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.16 20:29:00 - [2] I only skimmed, but I must say the following: No. There's no reason, at all.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.09.16 20:32:00 - [3] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/09/2009 20:33:27 Caldari BS work fine in shield RR gangs, and shield tanks > armor tanks anyway. Downside is you need logistic ships, but whatever. The torp raven does absolutely frightening DPS with a very decent range, Rokh is nearly unkillable if you combine local tank and logistics and puts out very respectable DPS. Scorpion is best warped in at range, but since when is ecm a bad thing? So, what is wrong with caldari BS for RR gangs? They do very well, if you just use them instead of talking them down as bad. Edit: also, demading armor tanks for caldari, excuse me while I rofl.
xxxak Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.16 20:32:00 - [4] Originally by: AstroPhobic I only skimmed, but I must say the following: No. There's no reason, at all. Want to elaborate a tiny bit? Are you saying that PvP Ravens are great ships? Are you saying that Caldari doesn't NEED an Alliance PVP BS? What exactly is your point?
xxxak Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.16 20:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/09/2009 20:33:27 Caldari BS work fine in shield RR gangs, and shield tanks > armor tanks anyway. Downside is you need logistic ships, but whatever. The torp raven does absolutely frightening DPS with a very decent range, Rokh is nearly unkillable if you combine local tank and logistics and puts out very respectable DPS. Scorpion is best warped in at range, but since when is ecm a bad thing? So, what is wrong with caldari BS for RR gangs? They do very well, if you just use them instead of talking them down as bad. Edit: also, demading armor tanks for caldari, excuse me while I rofl. The torp raven does absolutely frightening DPS with a very decent range, Rokh is nearly unkillable if you combine local tank and logistics and puts out very respectable DPS. Scorpion is best warped in at range, but since when is ecm a bad thing? So, what is wrong with caldari BS for RR gangs? They do very well, if you just use them instead of talking them down as bad. No offense to you, but you simply have no idea what you are talking about, or you misunderstood my main point. 0.0 ALLIANCE PvP is always armor rep. Never shield. Never ever. The only time Alliance PvP involves shield rep is VERY small gangs (usually NOT RR, btw) or Nano gangs of HACs with Scimitar RR. (NOT BS, i.e. No Ravens/Rokh)
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.09.16 21:31:00 - [6] Originally by: xxxak The problem summarized: Caldari ships do laughable DPS with fleet fits and are usually Auto-Primary because everyone knows their resists and EHP will fall on the low end of the scale and/or they are shield tanked.. lol wat? The problem with caldari isn't their dps or ehp. The problem is: 1. Travel time This should be pretty obvious by now and I really hope I'm not going to have to explain why this is a problem. 2. Numbers As is, caldari ships are the only decent shield tankers. Thus by simple statistics more players in alliances are capable of flying armor bs well. If the pest and mael were buffed this might make shield tanking more viable. I have seen an all raven rr gang and it was quite deadly. The problem is finding enough people to do it. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Pax Empyrean	Posted - 2009.09.16 21:50:00 - [7] Quote: I have seen an all raven rr gang and it was quite deadly. The problem is finding enough people to do it. They're all in Motsu. :)
Ghostfire	Posted - 2009.09.16 21:57:00 - [8] lol ... just coz youre instructed to be able to remote armor rep doesn't mean that caldari hasn't got a viable dps ship in fleet more that your fleet needs to adapt to assist shield tankers?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.09.16 21:58:00 - [9] Edited by: James Lyrus on 16/09/2009 21:59:41 Oh hell no. The reason Caldari cannot do RR is because they shield tank, and because large shield transporters take a completely ABSURD amount of CPU. I mean seriously: T1 is 140cpu, 160 grid Meta 4 is 119cpu, 160 grid T2 is 154cpu, 192 grid. Compare that if you will to the difficulty of fitting a large remote armour repairer? 48 cpu, 660 powergrid for T2, 32 CPU 600 grid for Meta 4. Most battleships can fairly easily shoehorn in a LRAR - especially stuff like the Abaddon that drops a gun for the privilege. VERY few ships can spare the 100+ CPU needed for a large shield transporter though - even the Raven is pretty damn marginal on doing it. Drop down the fitting cost of the Large remote shield transporter somewhat, and suddenly you make shield RR viable - at which point you get Tempests, Ravens, Rokhs, Maelstroms making good shield RR platforms - raven and 'pest in particular, gaining from having two slots for remote reps. But not when they hurt quite that much to fit. Other than that, there's nothing wrong with those weapon systems. 30km effective range with the 'gankiest' guns would leave both Ravens and Rokhs high on the kill mail otherwise.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.16 22:12:00 - [10] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 16/09/2009 22:14:07 Armor tanking is not a role that caldari has to fill in any reasonable capacity. If shield RR was all the rage, would you be asking for a shield tanked amarr ship? That being said, the scorpion is very useful when engaging RR BS gangs, and the raven makes a passable RR boat. It's like asking for caldari to have a big drone boat - why? It's not needed. ed: I'd also like to say that caldari has one of the most solid all-around battleship lineups. If lasers weren't so godly, I'd say the best battleship lineup. Great fleet sniper, great DPS gang ship, arguably the best (cost efficiency/EW efficiency) EW boat.
Lanais Suleia	Posted - 2009.09.16 22:23:00 - [11] Originally by: xxxak Attention everyone. I have found a flaw in Caldari Online! There is something at which the Caldari aren't best! THIS MUST BE DEALT WITH!!! MY RAVEN WAS ARMOR-TANKED WITH THE FOLLOWING! FYP.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.09.16 22:28:00 - [12] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 16/09/2009 22:14:07 Armor tanking is not a role that caldari has to fill in any reasonable capacity. If shield RR was all the rage, would you be asking for a shield tanked amarr ship? That being said, the scorpion is very useful when engaging RR BS gangs, and the raven makes a passable RR boat. It's like asking for caldari to have a big drone boat - why? It's not needed. ed: I'd also like to say that caldari has one of the most solid all-around battleship lineups. If lasers weren't so godly, I'd say the best battleship lineup. Great fleet sniper, great DPS gang ship, arguably the best (cost efficiency/EW efficiency) EW boat. Well, as a Caldari specialist, I started using a Typhoon, and now I'm driving a 'geddon for RR gangs. I'm afraid I just don't like how the Raven/Scorp just disintegrate when lit up. But that's not to say I think they're bad ships - I agree entirely that I think caldari get an awesome BS lineup. It's just ... well, FOTM is armour RR. Caldari can't armour RR particularly well. That's fine. They also can't shield RR either, which I feel should be fixed.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.16 23:02:00 - [13] Edited by: Marko Riva on 16/09/2009 23:02:43 All the clueless/troll posting aside; Caldari has no place in a predominantly armor tanked environment like RRBS gangs. A shield tanked ship will be the odd one out and primaried first once the FC starts to work on BS's and for good reason. Anyone denying that either doesn't know what he's talking about and/or he's trolling. That said; train something else. When I was in 0.0 I mostly flew minmatar but trained amarr BS to work in RRBS gangs. Some (racial) ships perform well in one task while being crap in another. While you could ofcourse demand 'equality' it would be the wrong thing to do as that would mean making everything the same. So either start running shield RR gangs or train for either Amarr or Gallente. Assuming you have good hybrid skill you only need to train Gallente BS to 4 and get some extra armor tanking skills. Although you should have mechanic and hull upgrades to 5 anyway, even as caldari.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.16 23:14:00 - [14] in a proper fleet battle you are dead before rr of any sort can save you. You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.16 23:17:00 - [15] Originally by: James Lyrus Well, as a Caldari specialist, I started using a Typhoon, and now I'm driving a 'geddon for RR gangs. I'm afraid I just don't like how the Raven/Scorp just disintegrate when lit up. But that's not to say I think they're bad ships - I agree entirely that I think caldari get an awesome BS lineup. It's just ... well, FOTM is armour RR. Caldari can't armour RR particularly well. That's fine. They also can't shield RR either, which I feel should be fixed. Agreed on all counts.
NoNah	Posted - 2009.09.16 23:20:00 - [16] I'm not sure I can agree. What I however can agree with, is that there is a lack in RR-able shield tanking ships. There needs to be more shieldtanking ships with utility highs. For example a maelstrom with 6 turret slots but a 8.5%(yes crude I know) RoF bonus would solve alot, or the obvious 5% added damagebonus. Or same thing with the rokh, 6 turrets but a 5% RoF bonus. As for the specific ships you list. 1) Scorp being primary is NOT an argument. It gets primary for a reason, it might be bad for you personally, but it's obviously a great ship for your fleet. If you don't want to die, go ahead and fit up an hefty buffertank, which it incidently happens to be great at. 2) You argue the problem with your warfare is that it's to close range, but the Raven will have delayed damage on long range? Torp ravens will have low delay on their damage AND will have one of the best both alphas and dps there are around while having 2 utility highs. 3) Agreed the Rokh isn't the best closerange armortanked boat around. Again, the issue here is with your fleet aligning with armor, not on the ship itself. Just giving it an extra low would make it overpowered, no doubt about it, and removing the optimal bonus would just force the return of the caldari whinesquad pointing out how crap caldari are at sniping. 4) Not sure I agree either gallente or minmatar needs a boost here. Yes, they will have to compromise, but doesn't make them crap at it. Null and Barrage does a ton of good. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 82071
Sinderblock Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.09.16 23:47:00 - [17] The number of ships that can sport a shield rr is low compared to armor rr. Also when you put a rr shield setup on a rohk, raven, ferox, ect...you have to choose between EHP/resists or tackle/cap boosters. No tackle and fewer ships means shield rr just isn't working well...which is why I need to decide if I'll cross train amarr or min so I can participate in rr gangs (I'm going to train t2 torps and have good shield skills so I'm leaning toward min).
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.16 23:52:00 - [18] The problem is entirely the absurd and ridiculous fitting requirements of Shield Transporters.
Greig Tarkunderson	Posted - 2009.09.17 00:06:00 - [19] Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this just mean that a different strategy is appropriate for caldari battleships? If the RRBS gangs are operating at 'point blank' ranges, wouldn't ECM to disrupt remote repair (and dps) coupled with long-range weaponry be a fairly effective counter? I'm not saying my suggestion is the right one, but A lot of unnecessary (or overly heavy-handed) nerfs happen in Eve because people forget that equal != identical. 'Scissors can't cut rock!' is not an indication for 'buff scissors!' or 'nerf rocks!'.
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2009.09.17 00:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Gypsio III The problem is entirely the absurd and ridiculous fitting requirements of Shield Transporters. /agreed The CPU for one Shield RR is upwards of 15% of your total CPU! Armor RR, is only at most, not even 4% of a ship's powergrid. Its VERY out of whack. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.09.17 00:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Gypsio III The problem is entirely the absurd and ridiculous fitting requirements of Shield Transporters. This. If RR shield modules had a more reasonable fitting, the FOTM would be RR ravens. Imagine that, a sphere of death within 45km As for the OP, you may think its crazy. Each race is supposed to be different and fill/bring different roles to the battlefield. Even worse than the people leaving drool all over the golden phallic fleet are the people demand all races be the same. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.09.17 00:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Gypsio III The problem is entirely the absurd and ridiculous fitting requirements of Shield Transporters. And CCP won't change this because then the dual shield transfer Torpraven would be the best closerange gangship.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.17 00:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Artemis Rose Originally by: Gypsio III The problem is entirely the absurd and ridiculous fitting requirements of Shield Transporters. This. If RR shield modules had a more reasonable fitting, the FOTM would be RR ravens. Imagine that, a sphere of death within 45km FOTM? Hardly. It would be no more of a sphere of death than that projected by Scorch or Garde IIs on armour-RR BS. The only advantage that shield RR has over armour RR is that the bonus is received at the start of the cycle. But since the cycle of a LRAR is just 4.5 seconds, this is not much of an advantage and doesn't justify the ridiculous fitting requirements.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.09.17 01:12:00 - [24] LST II and LRAR II on a Megathron: LRAR II: 7% of CPU, 3.4% of PG. LST II: 22.4% of CPU, 1.0% of PG. Why? Shield RR should be easier to fit on BS than armour RR, because as most BS armour-tank, fewer BS would benefit from it as much as armour RR. I suggest cutting the CPU requirements of shield transporters by a factor of three.
Dynast Eve Defence Force Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.17 01:48:00 - [25] Edited by: Dynast on 17/09/2009 01:48:09 Originally by: xxxak Today, many fleet battles (as well as many smaller engagements) occur at point blank ranges with remote reps and armor tanks being absolutely mandatory. The problem summarized: Caldari ships do laughable DPS with fleet fits and are usually Auto-Primary because everyone knows their resists and EHP will fall on the low end of the scale and/or they are shield tanked. Don't expect every race to do everything well. CCP could have modeled each race to have all capabilities... everyone with armor tanking/shield tanking ships, with most/all weapons bonused, with bonused ECM, with high speed, with bonused bonused drone damage.. but that's not the route they've gone. Rather than doing things Hello Kitty Online style and turning everything into mush so nobody can complain that their mush is any different from the other side's mush, they've kept some real difference between the racial lines of ships. I'm thankful for that, and the game is better for it. If you want to do everything perfectly, crosstrain.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.09.17 02:00:00 - [26] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/09/2009 02:03:58 Originally by: xxxak No offense to you, but you simply have no idea what you are talking about, or you misunderstood my main point. The thing is, your main point is moot. Not every ship / race has to be geared towards armor tanking, and caldari ships work well for the tanking type they are designed for. Now we can argue about how shield transporters should be easier to fit on BSs, but not how caldari ships should work with armor tanks. Quote: 0.0 ALLIANCE PvP is always armor rep. Never shield. Never ever. This is just a phenomenon of availability, i.e. 3/4 of battleships are armor tankers, hence it is easy to get numbers for armor RR. Thats the only reason to fly armor RR really, stat-wise its inferior to shield RR. Bottom line, if your alliance cant (or doesnt want to) field a shield RR BS gang dont blame it on the ships, blame it on the alliance, the ships are working fine.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.09.17 02:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Gypsio III FOTM? Hardly. It would be no more of a sphere of death than that projected by Scorch or Garde IIs on armour-RR BS. It's nonsense to say that the dual-LST torp Raven would be the best gang gank BS - it would simply be brought on to a level of gang utility of the armour tankers. Even without the CPU problems, it would still have massive PG problems. The Torp Raven is already the best straight gang DPS boat. The most damage, with the most range and 100% changable damage type easily gives it this role. Scorch reachs out a bit past Jav Torps, yes, but even at the 30-43km range the Jav torp wins. Before anybody can babble about webs and target painters, a Scorch L ship doesn't exactly hit untackled targets very well. Both of those mods would only increase DPS for the entire gang. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Loco Eve	Posted - 2009.09.17 02:42:00 - [28] I'm not going to give a long drawn out response as to why you are wrong. I'll just say one thing. FOR EVER ACTION THERE IS AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION. If you understand that you will understand New Eden.
SpaceBall 7 Heaven's Avatars	Posted - 2009.09.17 04:02:00 - [29] TL;DR [Rokh, Armorrokh] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Stasis Webifier II Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Warp Scrambler II Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Valkyrie II x5 Do i get a cookie now?
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.09.17 04:29:00 - [30] Edited by: Lili Lu on 17/09/2009 04:31:52 Originally by: Gypsio III LST II and LRAR II on a Megathron: LRAR II: 7% of CPU, 3.4% of PG. LST II: 22.4% of CPU, 1.0% of PG. Why? Shield RR should be easier to fit on BS than armour RR, because as most BS armour-tank, fewer BS would benefit from it as much as armour RR. I suggest cutting the CPU requirements of shield transporters by a factor of three. While I like your posts for the most part, I am left wondering at the logic of you last two sentences in this post. The first is not a valid reason to make remote shield reps "easier" to fit than rr armor reps. The second is simply ludicrous. This situation is not a "Caldari" issue. It is a "shield" issue (don't forget Minmatar shield tankers), and balance is much trickier in that regard because the two systems act differently. Should/could remote shield reps lose some cpu fitting requirements. Ok, yes, maybe, some. Maels and Rokhs would benefit (Rokh easier to fit than Mael btw in my experience). Should it be greatly reduced? No I don't think so. Shield reppers do different things than armor reppers (rep at beginning of cycle, shorter cycle, amount repped). Would you trade any shield benefits for ridiculously easy fittings? Because, if they were much easier to fit than armor, i'd think they would have to lose a great deal of power in repping, i.e. below that of armor.

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