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Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.19 11:14:00 - [1] I'm kinda inbetween if this should be in market discussion or in industry & science section, but I think it will fit here a bit better. Se let me start. Currently datacores are generated in fully passive way after initial standings grind is done. Not only do they take no 'activity' to be generated on top of that they are even generated if account is inactive. So why I'm thinking about it ? I got power of 2 offer on one of my accounts. Apparently this is not as universal offer as previous ones as wording of the mail kinda hint's that only 'young' accounts that were active today got the offer. My older accounts did not get it indeed. According to my initial calculations one can do approx 6 mil / day or approx 2 bil / year per character with datacore farming. It's sort of 'realistic' calculation, not the max theoretical. 5 agents, one science skill at 5, one at 4, one corporation. So assuming I take the offer and will go thru the standings grind (and from past experience I can confirm that this grind is indeed serious one even for me) for 3 characters I would have additional account that I would be able to let go inactive and afterwards just activate once a year to 'cash in'. Or even if PLEX price goes up again or chosen cores go down somewhat (up to ~40 % down) I might have one extra 'free' account running on datacores. That in turn brings me to the reason why I created this post. How big is in your opinion probability that CCP will 'nerf' current situation with datacores in let's say - during the next 2 years ? So far in my opinion this probability is moderately low - ie if I would need to take a wild swing at the number I would offer that 'less than 20%', as that time involves 4-5 expansions incuding walking in stations and dust that seem unlikely cnaditates to do anything to datacores. But I would like to get few more 'educated guesses' at it before I threaten again my will to play EVE with the amount of grinding it takes to get 3 characters to best R&D agents in R&D corp to find out that stuff I grinded for got nurfed the day I got there.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.09.19 13:20:00 - [2] About the chance CCP does something about it... I'd say the chance they do it in the next 2 years is actually higher than just 20%. They already cut down the FEATURE which was one of the EVE selling points (the training-while-unpaid) for several years while claiming all of a sudden it was actually an unintended bug... because too many people started to take advantage of it and they were getting less cash than they could. Considering the datacore accrual is pretty much the same thing, and the more time goes on the more datacores are needed so more people will try to pull this off... at one time, they will go and pull the same thing. Chances in my opinion ? At least 20% in 2010, and maybe up to 50% cummulative until the end of 2011. As for the second part of it all (the grind, the choices and so on and so forth) see : http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1177490 (Linkage) It should give you some ideas. _ Info about our corp \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Ad Valorem Minmatar Industrial Mite	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:07:00 - [3] I think the chances are much higher than 20% that this will get nerfed. As someone just starting the grind I can attest to its horror. I estimate it will take me months of serious serious mission running to get the standings needed for just one character, the thought of three characters getting trained then grinded is inconceivable (I think I know what it means). Reasons for nerf: 1) In about 2-3 months I will be able to get datacores, so it will be nerfed. 2) People are using them to fund accounts. 3) CCP hates industry and mission running. Mostly joking. Keep in mind datacores had a relatively recent price drop making funding accounts harder. It would be interesting to work out the actual return vs time invested compared to just Lvl 4 mission running for profit, I expect the same time for standings grind for datacores would net billions from lvl 4 missions, without the wait and time to collect the little buggers.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:40:00 - [4] Edited by: Carniflex on 19/09/2009 15:40:28 For me the grind time is approx 1 month per character, as I have some limitations on my available gaming time and can't really do 4+ h gaming sessions every day. Up to around 2 months per character if new sov is actually needed for 0.0 alliances and I will have to spend few hours every day hanging in fleet and shooting those planned sov disruptors. That in combination of having to use lower than usual quality agent for grind will result somewhat lower income already from missionrunning in there for me. If we talk here about L4 combat agent it will take approx 40 missions shared for 2 to get acsess to that agent from personal standings and after that it's approx 60 .. 100 missions more to get to higher end R&D agent from corp standings if you just take the mission with your alt and do it with your main(s) turning it in for alt solo. Depending a lot on agent quality and system security class ofc.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:02:00 - [5] Originally by: Carniflex Edited by: Carniflex on 19/09/2009 15:40:28 For me the grind time is approx 1 month per character, as I have some limitations on my available gaming time and can't really do 4+ h gaming sessions every day. Up to around 2 months per character if new sov is actually needed for 0.0 alliances and I will have to spend few hours every day hanging in fleet and shooting those planned sov disruptors. That in combination of having to use lower than usual quality agent for grind will result somewhat lower income already from missionrunning in there for me. If we talk here about L4 combat agent it will take approx 40 missions shared for 2 to get acsess to that agent from personal standings and after that it's approx 60 .. 100 missions more to get to higher end R&D agent from corp standings if you just take the mission with your alt and do it with your main(s) turning it in for alt solo. Depending a lot on agent quality and system security class ofc. You can use COSMOS constellation agents to accelerate your standings gain, particularly if you go for Caldari COSMOS, Caldari mission agents and Lai Dai R&D agents.
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:27:00 - [6] Originally by: Carniflex I'm kinda inbetween if this should be in market discussion or in industry & science section, but I think it will fit here a bit better. Se let me start. Currently datacores are generated in fully passive way after initial standings grind is done. Not only do they take no 'activity' to be generated on top of that they are even generated if account is inactive. So why I'm thinking about it ? I got power of 2 offer on one of my accounts. Apparently this is not as universal offer as previous ones as wording of the mail kinda hint's that only 'young' accounts that were active today got the offer. My older accounts did not get it indeed. According to my initial calculations one can do approx 6 mil / day or approx 2 bil / year per character with datacore farming. It's sort of 'realistic' calculation, not the max theoretical. 5 agents, one science skill at 5, one at 4, one corporation. So assuming I take the offer and will go thru the standings grind (and from past experience I can confirm that this grind is indeed serious one even for me) for 3 characters I would have additional account that I would be able to let go inactive and afterwards just activate once a year to 'cash in'. Or even if PLEX price goes up again or chosen cores go down somewhat (up to ~40 % down) I might have one extra 'free' account running on datacores. That in turn brings me to the reason why I created this post. How big is in your opinion probability that CCP will 'nerf' current situation with datacores in let's say - during the next 2 years ? So far in my opinion this probability is moderately low - ie if I would need to take a wild swing at the number I would offer that 'less than 20%', as that time involves 4-5 expansions incuding walking in stations and dust that seem unlikely cnaditates to do anything to datacores. But I would like to get few more 'educated guesses' at it before I threaten again my will to play EVE with the amount of grinding it takes to get 3 characters to best R&D agents in R&D corp to find out that stuff I grinded for got nurfed the day I got there. Your calculations are off. I have several datacore farming characters and the best one only approaches currently 3.8 million a day/116.3 million a month, harvesting primarly quantum physic datacores with the skill at 5. Assuming you do cargo running missions (which is really the quickest way to grind your standing) and are well off to begin with for the inital investment in skills, implants and method of transport of the cores, you can expect to have a character setup in a little over 2 months and for an account, have it ready in 6 (this assumes you already can transport your cores). Having done the grind for several characters for several months, I highly doubt CCP will nerf datacores as one has to be very deticated to it in order to generate signifiant sums of isk from just selling the cores. Even then, you would need at very least 2-3 accounts (6-9 characters) to rival the isk you can make actively with say mission running. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
Dorisane	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Dorisane on 19/09/2009 21:17:07 indeed, these numbers are off imho. I trained up for datacores, and have 4 agents at lvl 4. - i then didnt play eve for a year and a half, and on returning, the datacores were worth about 700 mil or so. - its alot, but its not huge. ----- Support fixing the UI I dont read posts that start with "so".
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Jacob Mei Your calculations are off. I have several datacore farming characters and the best one only approaches currently 3.8 million a day/116.3 million a month, harvesting primarly quantum physic datacores with the skill at 5. His numbers are fine. You can achieve more than 7m/day 210m/month with a well skilled, high standing character harvesting Nanite Engineering datacores from high-sec agents with the current prices.
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:55:00 - [9] ok in order I got the "Power or two" offer on all of my accounts, however if you have multiple accounts signed up with the same Email address you will have only gotten one (total) email because of spam traps. a lot of people use that "pasive income" to pay for plex. CCP likes it when you use plex because then they can take the money they made from the sale of a given plex and report it as income and can now spend it. Nerfing pasive income = Nerfing plex income and given that this is the company that brought you the original sov mechanic and the T2 lotto you can trust that they are smart enough to see that relationship. . .. **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense.
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Dorisane Edited by: Dorisane on 19/09/2009 21:17:07 indeed, these numbers are off imho. I trained up for datacores, and have 4 agents at lvl 4. - i then didnt play eve for a year and a half, and on returning, the datacores were worth about 700 mil or so. - its alot, but its not huge. 1 year and a half and 700 m isk and you call that a lot? That's under 1.3 M ISK a day.....................................

Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:44:00 - [11] Unfunded datacore harvesting will be nerfed. It's not a question of "if" but of "when." Plenty of people (myself included) spun up industrial alts when the promise of an industrial expansion was looming. Yeah, yeah. It seemed like a great idea at the time. Phase 2 of that alt flood was visible around the march 10th expansion if you looked at certain skillbook sales volumes. Lots of those characters got trained for manufacturing, then t2 invention. And now, with invention profits being nowhere near worthwhile levels due to the intense competition the unfunded passive datacore income looks like the best option for the 3rd, 4th and + alt accounts. You're looking at two risks. The first risk: CCP does some math on their DB and goes 'holy crap, we have 50,000 people "playing" without paying us' (see: ghost training nerf justification). The other risk is a massive oversupply of datacores if they don't nerf. Either way, the way things are I'm not grinding up any new alts. And like you I can grind them relatively fast given about 150M sp of mission runners and the 9 mission pullers I can field, it's just the grind is too soul crushing to contemplate. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Jacob Mei Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Jacob Mei Your calculations are off. I have several datacore farming characters and the best one only approaches currently 3.8 million a day/116.3 million a month, harvesting primarly quantum physic datacores with the skill at 5. His numbers are fine. You can achieve more than 7m/day 210m/month with a well skilled, high standing character harvesting Nanite Engineering datacores from high-sec agents with the current prices. I checked the numbers and your right, assuming all required skills were at level 5 and he had 5 agents going he could in theory make about 153 million per character per month based on current prices, though he would need to grind the standing for two corporations, but that is a personal choice. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod!
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.20 02:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Jacob Mei I checked the numbers and your right, assuming all required skills were at level 5 and he had 5 agents going he could in theory make about 153 million per character per month based on current prices, though he would need to grind the standing for two corporations, but that is a personal choice. It gets better. On a fast machine it takes no time at all to log in and see if the agent your alt is parked at wants to eat some tritanium. I fire up 3 windows at once to do this and to adjust market orders on my alts. With about a 50% tritanium feasting rate you could get a bonus 30 datacores a month and a shot at a 16M isk or 22M isk implant storyline per character. Now, queue up some blueprints in the same station and chaCHING. 600-700M/month per funded account for nearly zero effort is eminently within reach once you're done grinding. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Reese X	Posted - 2009.09.20 04:53:00 - [14] Interesting to speculate about. I'm actually a datacore consumer since I use more datacores per month than I can generate on my own under the current methods of getting them. "Nerfing" it in the way I think you mean would probably drive prices up for me, not down, as more people would be competing over a reduced supply (If they simply just paid you less passive RP than they do now.) But, If you mean "nerfing" it in a way that anyone can mission as many RP's as they want--prices would plumet considerably, as there would be less buyers. And I'd probably not be a "consumer" of datacores anymore. I've personally got no problem with the current system, and think tinkering with it could break an important system in the overall economy. Besides 6mil a day if that's all one toon makes in a day is very poor. A lvl4 mission grinder can make 50mil every couple of hours, a person ratting in lowsec can make the same with the chance of getting faction drops. I sell one t1 cruiser while I sleep at night, and I've made 6mill. But, I suppose if you took skill time away from your main, and used your alts for research as well, then you'd really be on to something. But, I think time/effort required to do all that sort of makes you deserving of the ability to buy a plex card for your account every month :-). After all it's a valuable service which requires the participation of many ppl just to keep t2 production going. Right now, and in the future, as more opportunities for t3 expand, and more verteran players move into dedicated production capacities in those roles, players who are coming up now are going to have opportunties they maybe haven't had before to become competitive in the t2 market, and the t2 market just devours datacores, so the only practical way CCP could really nerf the datacore thing I think is to just require less datacores per invention attempt. But really where is this on CCP's list of things to tweak? Probably like WAY DOWN ON THE Bottom! Hell, it honestly may not even be considered an issue.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.20 06:35:00 - [15] I do agree to the statement that it's not question 'if' but more like 'when' they get around doing it. However in my opinion datacores are tied to the T2 BPO's also in nontrivial manner. If we remove 'passive' datacore generation it will nuke invention hard, as datacore farming would have to start competing on open market with other 'active' ways of making isk like mining, missions, exploration and playing the markets, etcetc. So if CCP want to keep the invention competitive against T2 BPO's on any semireasonable amount of items they would need to do serious invention overhaul or serious datacore generation overhaul (altho if it comes down to that I would not put it past them to just stop generating cores from R&D agents and make exploration drop gazillion of them). I'll not rant here about what I personally think about T2 BPO's as this thread is not exactly about those. They are just one of the things that are tied to datacores. However - at first iteration - should they decide there is problem they would probably just stop datacore generation for characters that are on inactive accounts. This culmulative probability might indeed be over 20% during next few years or next 4-5 expansions. Should this happen during next few years I would not cry too hard over it tho. I do have use for 3 extra cyno alts should this account be forced to be active to generate cores. PLEX would propably go a bit up and datacores considerably up after that kind of change. What I'm somewhat worried about and see as major risk for my time investment (in the form of standings grind) is situation where datacore generation is turned into 'active' activity. And I don't mean having to log into your datacore alt once a week to hand the poor agent some tritanium to keep RP ticking but more like having to do some more active sort of missions that take active interaction and considerable time. For example getting sent 25j to random direction to hack some container or whatever. That would put major dampener on this for me. As far as 2 bil / year per character goes - I do not expect it to last long. Perhaps 6 or so months as datacore market has very heavy inertia on supply side. Long term it's propably roughly same as meh engineering cores plus minus approx 10..15% depending what ends up as FOTM for that time.
Cergorach Amarr Black-Sun Pitch Black Legion	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:33:00 - [16] You do realize that training those three characters on that one account to the levels they need to be that effective is going to take ~10 months, there's no more ghost training thus you'll have to keep the account active for all that time. 10 months x 290M isk = 2.9B isk, add in skills & implants, your three characters cost 3B+ isk (more if you use the accelerated standing cosmos grind). Even if your using the Power of Two (which will cost you $49.95/Ç49.95 per account, it'll still cost ~1.2B+ isk to train the three characters. Then there's selling a years worth of datacores. Unless your using a LOT of time, selling those datacores is going to flood the market (unless your using Mechanical Engineering DCs). And lower the prices. If you can indeed get 2B isk a year, per character (I only get ~1.2B isk with six agents, one skill, and one corporation), it'll earn you ~6B-0.3B=5.7B a year. But that's only the second year, the first year you'll hardly break even. So after two years you'll have earned 5.7B isk, after three 11.4B isk, etc. (thanks for the tip, I'll take a serious look if I can increase my earnings without grinding for another corp standing of 7) The question then becomes, was the grinding, the investment, and the chance that CCP is going to 'nerf' passive RP worth it. About the grinding: Use a combat character to grind to a level 3 agent (preferably an agent that gives a lot of combat missions), after that gang with the non-combat character and share the mission with the non-combat character. When the non-combat charcter has reached enough standing with the level 3 agent to request missions himself, let him and let the combat character run the missions, the non-combat character doesn't share missions with the combat character. Level 3 combat missions generate a decent amount of standing increase, can be done quickly and every 16 missions will generate a 'special' mission that generally gives more standing increase. Repeat until you hit standing 7 with the corporation (training some social skills will help). Training the characters up for trading, research, production, POS gunners, etc. Does make them more versatile, thus making it more interesting to keep them supplied with PLEXes all year round. Two of mine have been trained up for trade and transportation and have become my primary money makers, thus allowing my main to move on to other avenues (I joined a corp in Wormhole space). I would welcome a change to 'nerf' datacores so they can't be generated on accounts that are not subscribed. It would increase the worth of the datacores (less supply), it would increase the cost of plexes (more demand), and the costs of T2 would go up again (resources cost more). ps. I got the offer for all my active accounts (old and new).
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Cergorach Edited by: Cergorach on 20/09/2009 13:08:52 You do realize that training those three characters on that one account to the levels they need to be that effective is going to take ~10 months .. Then there's selling a years worth of datacores. Unless your using a LOT of time, selling those datacores is going to flood the market (unless your using Mechanical Engineering DCs). And lower the prices. .. The question then becomes, was the grinding, the investment, and the chance that CCP is going to 'nerf' passive RP worth it. .. About the grinding: Use a combat character to grind to .. and every 16 missions will generate a 'special' mission that generally gives more standing increase. .. Training the characters up for trading, research, production, POS gunners, etc. Does make them more versatile, thus making it more interesting to keep them supplied with PLEXes all year round. It can be done in 2 months per character. Lev 5 science skill, Lev 4 science skill and 5 R&D agents (ie research project management at lev 4). I have yet to go over exact math as nowdays one can do stats redistribution and up to 1.6 mil SP training is double speed. It is probably impossible to get 6 agents going in 2 months but who knows. If I optimize well enough might pull it off on one char out of 3 during that 6 months. As far as core volume goes market can take few thousand cores without even noticing really. Granted if it happens a lot it will increase supply side and drive price down ofc. Mech engineering is high volume datacore, but other cores can still grant you higher price for a while per core than mech engineering. Everyone and his dog are already doing mech engineering afterall atm. That is good question. I think it will. My 'break even' point would be approx 1 year. Besides should they just remove RP points generation from inactive accounts so to say 'free' account is still worth something. Main risk is that they do not remove it only from inactive accounts but also make it fully active - ie timeconsuming activity that must be done every day to get the points in what case the account would no longer be 'free'. In later scenario it would have to join my other inactive accounts and effort on it would be indeed wasted. Yes. That is indeed best way. I myself dualaccount combat level 4 agents for it. Shared missions until alt has acsess to agent from personal standing then alt accepting missions and turing them in solo while dedicated missionrunning characters do the actuall shooting stuff. However storyline missions are not always available in R&D corp - depending on local topology. Courier missions are also ok but I really can't stand them. Yes. Training them up for other stuff add's value to them, but it's not worth doing on them really unless the account can cover the PLEX cost to maintain itself so to say 'free'. Or in case of first additional accounts using them will grant you more isk per month than just saving the PLEX price and doing stuff solo. For example level 4 missionrunning wingman covered by PLEX can make you more isk per month than doing them solo and just using the PLEX money if you do missions X hours per month where X is function of your equpiment, skills and all other things that count when missionrunning.
Cergorach Amarr Black-Sun Pitch Black Legion	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Carniflex It can be done in 2 months per character. Lev 5 science skill, Lev 4 science skill and 5 R&D agents (ie research project management at lev 4). I have yet to go over exact math as nowdays one can do stats redistribution and up to 1.6 mil SP training is double speed. It is probably impossible to get 6 agents going in 2 months but who knows. If I optimize well enough might pull it off on one char out of 3 during that 6 months. I've already respect to memory/intelligence, when all the related training is done I'll respec to charisma, should shave a few days off ;-) It also seems that my skill planner doesn't take into account that the first 1.6M skill points are learned twice as quickly. So you might be spot on. Originally by: Carniflex As far as core volume goes market can take few thousand cores without even noticing really. Granted if it happens a lot it will increase supply side and drive price down ofc. Mech engineering is high volume datacore, but other cores can still grant you higher price for a while per core than mech engineering. Everyone and his dog are already doing mech engineering afterall atm. Your not talking about a few thousand datacores, your talking about 12k+ DCs for a for an item that trades far fewer then ME DAs. Even the Mechanical Enginering Datacores aren't as resilient as you might think. The market can get quickly out of balance, and when it is off balance it can quickly plumet. If you want to sell such a large amount, spread it out over a couple of weeks. Originally by: Carniflex That is good question. I think it will. My 'break even' point would be approx 1 year. Besides should they just remove RP points generation from inactive accounts so to say 'free' account is still worth something. Main risk is that they do not remove it only from inactive accounts but also make it fully active - ie timeconsuming activity that must be done every day to get the points in what case the account would no longer be 'free'. In later scenario it would have to join my other inactive accounts and effort on it would be indeed wasted. A year for break even isk wise, the amount of time you've sunk into this endeavor, you'll never get back ;-) Originally by: Carniflex Yes. That is indeed best way. I myself dualaccount combat level 4 agents for it. Shared missions until alt has acsess to agent from personal standing then alt accepting missions and turing them in solo while dedicated missionrunning characters do the actuall shooting stuff. However storyline missions are not always available in R&D corp - depending on local topology. Courier missions are also ok but I really can't stand them. I've never done the whole COSMOS thing, might try it in the future, but it's expensive and the gang thing is relatively efficient, especially when you do it with more DC alts (at one time I was doing it with two combat characters and 7 DC alts, the two combat alts made the missions a breeze and 87.5% of the standing went to the alts). Originally by: Carniflex Yes. Training them up for other stuff add's value to them, but it's not worth doing on them really unless the account can cover the PLEX cost to maintain itself so to say 'free'. Or in case of first additional accounts using them will grant you more isk per month than just saving the PLEX price and doing stuff solo. For example level 4 missionrunning wingman covered by PLEX can make you more isk per month than doing them solo and just using the PLEX money if you do missions X hours per month where X is function of your equpiment, skills and all other things that count when missionrunning. If you have three max trained DC alts on an account and with current DC prices and PLEX prices, it's self sufficient. Any functionality beyond the DC 'farming' would be profit
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Cergorach The market can get quickly out of balance, and when it is off balance it can quickly plumet. If you want to sell such a large amount, spread it out over a couple of weeks. I was going to say that spreading out sales over a period of time is obvious. The day someone culls their long term DC farmer does not have to be the day they sell those DC's. More importantly the issue in this thread is not about "how smart" or "how clever" the person doing the long term DC harvesting is. It's all about how much isk they are getting for not paying anything to play. I tried to raise this issue myself over at the CSM. I did it at the same time as I complained about Ghost Training. Seems that most people were for nerfing Ghost Training... but leave our Ghost R&D toons alone!!! As to DC production itself: - cut rp by 50% All this crap about how hard it is to mission up the standings. Bull. Most mission runners would've done that work any damned way. It's not like there are not other compensations along the way as well. Why should someone receive so much benefit for "doing nothing" after they reach an arbitrary goal line? So much for dynamic. - give more variety of missions Might I add that the trit mission is an example of the kind of R&D mission that should not exist. It leads to "coasting" which btw was heavily abused previously. (That comment is for any Dev with a memory.) - make the modifier for the mission x4 not x2. The fact of the matter is that if I can get 50% of something for doing nothing... I'll do nothing. Personally, when I'm playing eve and I can afford the time I do actively mission my R&D agents. I like popping an important storyline mission every 3 days or so. Especially since the R&D "dailies" only take 20 - 30 minutes of time. Time that I spend working the market any damned way. Simply put, datacore harvesting is just another "free ride" mechanism. Been one for a very long time, going to be one for a long time as well. (I don't see any signs that anuses will be missing any Dev heads in the near future.) See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:04:00 - [20] Originally by: HawkBlade As to DC production itself: - cut rp by 50% - give more variety of missions - make the modifier for the mission x4 not x2. Changing the modifier to 4x will undo the effect of cutting rp production by 50% wouldn't it? Also, I have 1 DC production alt and another one grinding missions for it on my second account, I'll admit that grinding mission is probably a big deterrence for me to do it again on another alt. Is there a place that tells you how much of the datacore is being produced by R&D compared to drops?

Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:39:00 - [21] I think you can indeed do 2 chars with 5 agents and one character with 6 accounts with 180 days. Will have even few days to spare on stuff like cyno and racial frigate 2 or 3. With lower prerequisties for cloaking that are planned in dominion could even do cloaking 1 to keep eye on gates for longer should it be needed. That is ofc with +3 implants, optimal amount of learning skills and Neural remapping after Int/Mem ones change to Mem/Cha one. Now all I need to think thru for me is if I really are willing to go thru with the grind it takes. So far educated guesses to originial question seem to agree somewhat that CCP will probably do something to datacores but probability that it will throw it all away and start from scratch is very low. It will probably either stopping RP generation while account is inactive or making more cores to drop from exploration. At least that is the general feeling so to say I get. Might be misinterpreting ofc.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife Dominatus Atrum Mortis	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:08:00 - [22] I expect prices to drop because (a) they've been trending down for about forever and (b) because you're not the only one planning to do exactly this with the power of two offer
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Cergorach I've never done the whole COSMOS thing, might try it in the future, but it's expensive COSMOS is not expensive, it is just a string of storyline missions. Because they are all storylines, you get massive standings boosts in a very short space of time. If you research the missions before doing them and plan your approach it is entirely possible to complete all the Lai Dai COSMOS missions in the Caldari COSMOS in a weekend. If they haven't nerfed it, from when I put a whole bunch of my characters through it, then it will get you most of the standings you need.
Cergorach Amarr Black-Sun Pitch Black Legion	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:38:00 - [24] Originally by: Bad Bobby COSMOS is not expensive, it is just a string of storyline missions. Because they are all storylines, you get massive standings boosts in a very short space of time. If you research the missions before doing them and plan your approach it is entirely possible to complete all the Lai Dai COSMOS missions in the Caldari COSMOS in a weekend. If they haven't nerfed it, from when I put a whole bunch of my characters through it, then it will get you most of the standings you need. As far as I know you'll need a whole bunch op TAGS, those cost isk...
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:53:00 - [25] Originally by: HawkBlade As to DC production itself: - cut rp by 50% - give more variety of missions - make the modifier for the mission x4 not x2. Originally by: Brock Nelson Changing the modifier to 4x will undo the effect of cutting rp production by 50% wouldn't it? Actually no. The initial cutting of RP by 50% only nerfs passive RP gain. This would effect both active and deactivated accounts. Raising the reward modifier raises the RP mission payout to original levels. This benefits only actively subscribed players while actively missioning for RP. Of course the active player who is actively farming RP gain a small percentage but that can easily be adjusted as well. X being RP and, for this instance, equaling 1. [originally] Passive X + Active X = 2 [nerf] ((Passive X.5)+((Active X.5)4))= 2.5 [alt nerf] ((Passive X.5)+((Active X.5)3))= 2 As you can see the multiplier itself truly is not so much the question. It is, imho, all about reducing reward for doing nothing. Especially since the situation is so widely abused. The old eve adage - Use a bug yourself [Exploit]. Get everyone to use a bug as well [Profit]. Tangential Issue: Does this have a knock on buffs to T2 bpos? Yes it does. The truth is that T2 bpo's were a mistake. Refusing to fix other related mechanics simply because you have no good solution to your mistakes is ... bad judgment. IMNSHO, fix T2 BPO's or don't fix them. But stop avoiding other areas because of them. That's my peace on that. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.21 04:25:00 - [26] Originally by: HawkBlade The initial cutting of RP by 50% only nerfs passive RP gain. This would effect both active and deactivated accounts. Raising the reward modifier raises the RP mission payout to original levels. This benefits only actively subscribed players while actively missioning for RP. Of course the active player who is actively farming RP gain a small percentage but that can easily be adjusted as well. ... Tangential Issue: Does this have a knock on buffs to T2 bpos? Yes it does. The truth is that T2 bpo's were a mistake. Refusing to fix other related mechanics simply because you have no good solution to your mistakes is ... bad judgment. IMNSHO, fix T2 BPO's or don't fix them. But stop avoiding other areas because of them. If CCP will want to get away from 'passive' datacore farming all they have to do is to run script that will stop research on all agents, dump the datacores so far collected in the personal hangars of researches in those stations and tune up datacore drops from exploration. And yeah - it would do nasty things to datacore prices and to prices of T2 modules with high enough demand to exceed T2 BPO supply. Ships are already in most cases 'not worth it' with few exceptions and those that are invention only. Until any 'passive' way exsists it will be used. By your proposal it would just mean that more people would pile tritanium at their R&D agent location and hand it to agent once a day. Still pretty passive. If they can be arsed to plan perhaps they would switch to some other R&D agents from same corp who are closer together but thats about it. In my opinion if you already start messing with it it would make sense to do best you can do in second iteration or you end up doing it again and again.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys	Posted - 2009.09.21 06:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: Bad Bobby COSMOS is not expensive, it is just a string of storyline missions. Because they are all storylines, you get massive standings boosts in a very short space of time. If you research the missions before doing them and plan your approach it is entirely possible to complete all the Lai Dai COSMOS missions in the Caldari COSMOS in a weekend. If they haven't nerfed it, from when I put a whole bunch of my characters through it, then it will get you most of the standings you need. As far as I know you'll need a whole bunch op TAGS, those cost isk... No. You are thinking of data centers. That is where you exchange tags for standings. That is a fairly expensive way of getting your faction standings up quickly. I am talking about COSMOS which is an entirely different thing. That is where you run a set of one-off missions which give storyline rewards. In my personal experience (which I grant is years old) they give you the majority of standings you need in a very short space of time and the cost if just effort.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: Bad Bobby COSMOS is not expensive, it is just a string of storyline missions. Because they are all storylines, you get massive standings boosts in a very short space of time. If you research the missions before doing them and plan your approach it is entirely possible to complete all the Lai Dai COSMOS missions in the Caldari COSMOS in a weekend. If they haven't nerfed it, from when I put a whole bunch of my characters through it, then it will get you most of the standings you need. As far as I know you'll need a whole bunch op TAGS, those cost isk... No. You are thinking of data centers. That is where you exchange tags for standings. That is a fairly expensive way of getting your faction standings up quickly. I am talking about COSMOS which is an entirely different thing. That is where you run a set of one-off missions which give storyline rewards. In my personal experience (which I grant is years old) they give you the majority of standings you need in a very short space of time and the cost if just effort. I don't know about Caldari & Amarr, but I recently (read: 2 weeks ago) to do COSMOS for an alt who needed standings and some are still broken. A ticket to CCP got answered that yes they know they are broken and some day they'll be fixed. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dretzle Omega Caldari Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:39:00 - [29] I don't see what the problem with "Ghost R&D" is. This is not nearly the same as the "Ghost Training" that got whacked. In Ghost Training, you get some (say, a whole month or two of training), without paying CCP anything. Realistically, why should you have a character benefiting that is not even enrolled. But "Ghost R&D" isn't anything close. Assume that you are right and can make 200+ Mil per month, even 400 Mil per month, whatever, with your R&D alt and datacores. You use a portion of that money to buy PLEX and keep the R&D alt "for free". And here's the major difference: CCP still gets their money for your alt. You bought the PLEX off the market to keep your R&D alt funded. Someone already paid CCP for that PLEX. CCP got their 15$, you got another "free" month of the char, and someone else got some ISK. There is no "Ghost R&D" where you get a character and CCP gets nothing. The ISK (and $$$) still flows. P.S. And CCP can count PLEX as income as soon as you buy it, whether or not it sells on the market.
Cergorach Amarr Black-Sun Pitch Black Legion	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Dretzle Omega I don't see what the problem with "Ghost R&D" is. This is not nearly the same as the "Ghost Training" that got whacked. In Ghost Training, you get some (say, a whole month or two of training), without paying CCP anything. Realistically, why should you have a character benefiting that is not even enrolled. But "Ghost R&D" isn't anything close. Assume that you are right and can make 200+ Mil per month, even 400 Mil per month, whatever, with your R&D alt and datacores. You use a portion of that money to buy PLEX and keep the R&D alt "for free". And here's the major difference: CCP still gets their money for your alt. You bought the PLEX off the market to keep your R&D alt funded. Someone already paid CCP for that PLEX. CCP got their 15$, you got another "free" month of the char, and someone else got some ISK. There is no "Ghost R&D" where you get a character and CCP gets nothing. The ISK (and $$$) still flows. P.S. And CCP can count PLEX as income as soon as you buy it, whether or not it sells on the market. Erm, were aiming at the train up character, start research with agents, then don't use PLEX or a subscription for a year, buy GTC, reactivate character, and sell a years worth of Datacores. That's EXACTLY the same as with ghost training... But don't worry, I've put it on the list of Industry/Market changes ;-)

Ivorr Bigun	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:46:00 - [31] could someone tell me the factors that directly affect the number of datacores you would recieve each day? Is it just the skill level of the related skill or do your standings also gain you more/less cores, and are there any other factors?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Ivorr Bigun could someone tell me the factors that directly affect the number of datacores you would recieve each day? Is it just the skill level of the related skill or do your standings also gain you more/less cores, and are there any other factors? Agent effective quality also, altho no need to go nuts with it like training negotiations 5 just for that on your datacore alt unless you really have training time to spare. Other than that I think system security class and relevant skill levels count also. PS Effective quality is also silghtly affected by your standings with agent in question. Main factor is relevant science skill most other effects are minor compared to that.
Johraiken Fenris Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.09.22 00:51:00 - [33] Edited by: Johraiken Fenris on 22/09/2009 00:51:44 Originally by: Ivorr Bigun could someone tell me the factors that directly affect the number of datacores you would recieve each day? Is it just the skill level of the related skill or do your standings also gain you more/less cores, and are there any other factors? RP / day = (agent lvl + science skill lvl)(agent lvl + science skill lvl) qlty_mod qlty_mod = (1 + agent quality/100) * (1 + social_skills_mod) social skills mod = 0.05 * negotiations lvl + connections_mod connections_mod = 0 for connections at 1 or 2; 0.01 for conn. @ 3 or 4, and 2 for conn. @ lvl 5. So in other words, besides the obvious science skill, which adds very nicely, as it is squared (notice that the relative increase actually decreases), the negotiations skill adds about 5% / lvl, and connections hardly being worth it, except that is saves you some grinding time.
Sojanth	Posted - 2009.10.02 08:07:00 - [34] I agree that CCP needs to kill the datacore accumulation on inactive accts. However, the market has its own correcting force(s). When the prices of datcores become low enough, it will no longer be worth the bother for people to grind the standings necessary to get those agents. Or they may fall low enough, that people cant be bothered to go and get them. At some point, datacore prices will fall low enough that they will become decoupled from PLEX Cards (if that has not already happened).
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.10.02 17:45:00 - [35] Edited by: Kerfira on 02/10/2009 17:48:23 Originally by: Carniflex It can be done in 2 months per character. Lev 5 science skill, Lev 4 science skill and 5 R&D agents (ie research project management at lev 4). I have yet to go over exact math as nowdays one can do stats redistribution and up to 1.6 mil SP training is double speed. Using a new character with the 100% training bonus (with optimal attributes according to EVEMon and +3's for Memory/Intelligence), in 29d6h you can do a research character to: RPM & 2 Science skills all to L4 Negotiations 4 Connections 3 If the two Science skills are not in related fields, you'll need to add 4d20h to train the 2nd pre-requisite skill. You can then add the following for extra RP: Negotiations to L5: ~12d extra One Science skill to L5: ~20d extra RPM to L5: ~43d extra Note that supposedly connections does no longer contribute to RP generation so'll be purely used to reduce standings needed. From this website: Connections skill bonus was removed from all agents who have no personal standings towards the character (all of RnD agents). It is in the patch notes, somewhere. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.02 19:26:00 - [36] Originally by: Kerfira You can then add the following for extra RP: Negotiations to L5: ~12d extra One Science skill to L5: ~20d extra RPM to L5: ~43d extra [/i] Only a fool will not have the relevant science skill at 5 (granted, you will train it after training the other 2 characters on the same account to level 4 if you can rise standing fast enough inthose 29 days) as it make a large difference. 64 base RP point for a level 4 agent with your science skill at 4 81 base RP with your science skill at 5 That is a 26% increase
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.10.02 20:29:00 - [37] Edited by: Kerfira on 02/10/2009 20:31:24 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Kerfira You can then add the following for extra RP: Negotiations to L5: ~12d extra One Science skill to L5: ~20d extra RPM to L5: ~43d extra [/i] Only a fool will not have the relevant science skill at 5 (granted, you will train it after training the other 2 characters on the same account to level 4 if you can rise standing fast enough inthose 29 days) as it make a large difference. 64 base RP point for a level 4 agent with your science skill at 4 81 base RP with your science skill at 5 That is a 26% increase I know :-) However, some people prefer to use that 40d training time (x3) on their main characters primary focus instead. The extra 25% RP are nice, but I've met some people who doesn't think the lost training on their main worth the effort. For 3 characters on the account, that's 4 months more training taken from your main where the first 3-4 months gave you 4/5th of the benefit. Myself I'll most likely do so for 3 of my accounts, but not for the 4th.... The standings grind is actually not too bad, provided you have a high-spec combat character to do the kill missions. It takes me somewhere between 10 and 15 hours to do so for 1 character... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Jesnens LoveSlave Koichi Scientific	Posted - 2009.10.03 04:05:00 - [38] I went inactive for 16months, when I came back I sold 2bil in datacores that had accrued. I am as bad as the Chinese.
Ariane VoxDei	Posted - 2009.10.05 17:03:00 - [39] Originally by: Kerfira The extra 25% RP are nice, but I've met some people who doesn't think the lost training on their main worth the effort. Sign that, time is precious, a isk increase that small in the greater scheme of things, is not.
Burnharder	Posted - 2009.10.05 17:22:00 - [40] Originally by: Jesnens LoveSlave I went inactive for 16months, when I came back I sold 2bil in datacores that had accrued. I am as bad as the Chinese. I do that too (go awol for six months to a year, been doing it since beta). Having a nice stash of data cores when you come back is actually a motivating factor to return, believe it or not. It dampens your memory of the daily grind you see.

Humwawa Gallente de Prieure	Posted - 2009.10.05 18:06:00 - [41] I thought you couldnt get Rp anymore on an inactive account? - If not then it should be implemented asap. Otherwise datacores are fine as they are - the prices reflect supply and demand. Anyone saying datacore are money for nothing - Go and grind the standings and then we talk again.....
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.10.05 23:16:00 - [42] data core prices will rise after dominion. Wherever you went - Here you are.


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