Originally by: Michwich

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CCP arent trying to encourage anything, they're stealing our isk plain and simple.

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Originally by: GuntiNDDS

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Originally by: PostWithYourAlt

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CCP came up with a solution to a non identified problem that naturally does not solve it.

Instead of trying to "fix" the symptom (people are in npc corps) CCP should identify the disease (why are people not in player corps?)

I hope they dont expand on this kind of half-serious game design.

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what he said

npc folks are not gonna join into player Corp¦s from this change.

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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please stop spamming the thread and return to discussion.

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Originally by: Ebon Prophecy

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The vocal minority gets their way again....

Too bad CCP listens to the real whiners....

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Originally by: Domoso

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Edited by: Domoso on 21/09/2009 20:22:20
This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves. And then what? All you people complaining about us NPC corpers are going to be complaining about being taxed. So what's the point of this move by CCP? I pay them to play a game. I'm not paying them to play a game that requires I work to play it. I've got other crap on my mind, like college. Taking 11% of the isk I spend my time and my rl money to earn is nothing more than BS. If they really wanted to solve this "problem" they've identified then how about giving players in player corps a progressive royalty based on number of players instead of making it 11% more difficult for me to make isk? Because either way, I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.[/quote]


Behold for it is working!

Originally by: Julian Lynq

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The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.

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Originally by: Domoso

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I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: Uronksur Suth

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Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now.

And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own.

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Again, I don¦t want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvp¦er who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.

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Originally by: Sizzle Anburn

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.

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Originally by: Domoso

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I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.

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Seems to me that it is working.

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You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players.

The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do.

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Originally by: Hamshoe

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Originally by: baltec1

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As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal.

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And there you have it. Support for no reason other than the fact that you feel you can't compete, you need the help to feel more equal.

Again, if it's the sweet and easy life why aren't you doing it yourself?

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Originally by: Hamshoe

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So in short, because you enjoy it more? So what's your beef with people who don't?

This is a classic case of "My neighbor has two cows and I only want one. Someone should kill one of his cows so he doesn't have more than me".

No one is stopping you from having all the fine services of an NPC corp, you're choosing not to take advantage and want others penalized so you can feel better about your choice.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Originally by: baltec1

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As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal.

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Show us on this doll where the solo monkies touched you.

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Originally by: Hamshoe

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Originally by: baltec1

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Works the both ways boyo. I pay taxes for my corps services yet your too good to pay taxes for the services provided for you?

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Actually, it doesn't.

You choose[/i to pay those taxes in return for that whole list of advantages. We'll assume you understood the choice you made. A player in an NPC corp gives up those advantages for the lack of wardecs and no taxes.

You choose, and now you're apparently not so satisfied with how your choice stacks up and feel folks should pay a similar tax rate [i]without those advantages.

It's not the same at all.

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Originally by: Hamshoe

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Originally by: baltec1

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And now CCP have fixed it so that you now pay for your immunity to wardecs. Seems fair to me since all of my stuff can be destroyed by a war dec. You now have a negetive to go along with that positive.

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Without any of the other benefits. You know, the "positives" that caused you to choose to go into a player corp in the first place? They obviously already outweigh the immunity to wardecs, unless you made a bad choice.

Like I said, you're apparently unhappy with your choice, but rather than adjust that you'll choose to penalize others so you can feel more competative.

It's not at all the same thing, it's catering to jealousy.

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Originally by: Nidhiesk

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Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

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- As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions.

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how ? player corp usually has 10-12%. same thing. forget it, Im staying in npc ? LOL. wow, if tahts the explanation... it needs rethinking...lots of it. raising tax wont make people go in player corps lol

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Originally by: Xandr0ss

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Originally by: baltec1

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I could demand CCP take away your immunity to wardecs but I dont,

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Really, so you think its fine to wardec a corp which will have a lot of new players in it? might as well remove High Sec if you are suggesting this.

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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Very good point about the nature of EvE players Prof T. But I think you, and the vast majority of EvE players who are long past the "frog kissing" stage of EvE, vastly overestimate the value of an NPC Corp tax.

The first thing a rookie to EvE learns is "trust nobody except RL friends". If you don't have RL friends in the game, it's a social vacuum. The trouble with an environment in which scamming, backstabbing, and ganking are respected, high-status activities is that it's next to impossible to separate honest players from trash. They sound exactly the same - if anything the scumbags are better at sounding like real people.

This is a major weakness of EvE as a MMO gane - it strongly discourages social contact. Some people will work hard to make contact anyway. Some won't. I have no social motivation to join some random group of strangers whom I can't trust. Quite the opposite - I dislike mixing with scumbags both IRL and in games, and I won't be forced to do so in a game.

PvP Corps are much better than player Corps in this respect, because there is no opportunity for backstabbing.

This 11% tax offers me a choice between bypassing it or leaving EvE. Bypassing it is the most likely of course. It isn't a significant factor in my plans for joining a player Corp.

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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@Baltec
I've never been scammed in EvE. I listened while I was in rookie help, and read the forums, and have followed the main rule of EvE: trust nobody.

The issue is the very large investment in time to really get a feel for the members of a Corp, since the odds of finding a Corp with only honest players is so low.

Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. Time (per Corp) to get a feel for the members of the Corp: a week elapsed, a few hours effective time (active chatting). An 11% tax on missions hardly influences the tradeoff.

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11

Originally by: Doddy

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand.

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TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps.

The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly".

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My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close.

You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one".

I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash.

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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@baltec
You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours?

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Gsptlsnz

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@baltec
You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours?

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I would say most because who is going to stay in a bad corp...It bad business.

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....or they quit.....

You may of.c. say that we're better off without them, that they're not suited for EVE, that they should GBTWOW... but that's lost money from the upkeep and expansion of the game we all like!

EVE has and SHOULD have a fair amount of griefing and underhanded stuff, but it should NEVER force newbies out of the game before they actually has a chance to get reasonably settled!

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Originally by: Bjron

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WE ARE GO for page 30!

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: Bjron

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got to page 14

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Great. Your making progress.

Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because
you do not manage to read past page 14.

Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are
only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ?

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Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog

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how do i steer my ship?

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Originally by: Bjron

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I think they should use subway on sticks, would work better.

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Originally by: Caldor Mansi

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And that is what this change is about. It does not make anyone like PC corps. It makes people annoyed only.

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Originally by: Caldor Mansi

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Originally by: baltec1

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Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing.

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What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference.

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Originally by: goazer

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Originally by: Julian Lynq

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Originally by: goazer

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Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?

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No it does not

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Perfect.

There is no risk to be ganked by enemy militias in your high sec areas. All mission alts just will join FW militias.

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Originally by: Ashina Sito

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Originally by: Bjron

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11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.

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CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails.

Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0.

I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax?

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Originally by: Sky Marshal

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Edited by: Sky Marshal on 24/09/2009 23:44:12

Originally by: Bjron

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11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.

But, what about the people in the PC? Hmm, if we take taxes out of this, or say taxes are equal, then what about war immune?
They are not war immune.

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. . .

30 pages on this topic to return to the beginning... When will you read the thread ?

Also, you seem deliberately omit that NPC Corp has also some disadvantages that PC Corp don't have, and pay a tax in PC Corp means sometimes some player added advantages : Linkage

There is already some balance. Wardec immunity, OK, but to pay that, you will NOT have POS, etc. as the link states.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: baltec1

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Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:57:09
Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:31:48

Originally by: Caldor Mansi

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Originally by: baltec1

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Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing.

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What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference.

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No cost for having concord punch lowlifes in the face with gods fist? I have yet to see an alliance that can deploy that kind of firepower in seconds let alone a corp. The new tax is warrented.

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So they don't do it for your corporation if you are attacked without a wardec?

Strange, my corp is fully protected in high sec, barring a wardec.

NPc corp opay for the wardec protection with the inability to help fellow corp member when they get can flipped or aggroed in some way and the inability to use POS and corp hangar.

You seem to think that your corporation tax is wasted in some way and don't give anything back to you.
If that is true you should change corp, it is a fault of your corporation, not of the system.

And to repeat two questions any "pro-tax" guy avoid:

- will you accept in your corp a guy whose reason to join is "your tax is lower than the NPC corp tax"?

- will you join a corp whose reason to be is "our tax is lower than the NPC tax"?

I wouldn't accept the first guy and will avoid the corporation.

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Originally by: baltec1

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Still grasping at those straws I see. Tell me, how much would you panic if you had 3 war decs from alliences of several hundred people in the span of a month AND had another going after your alt corps tower? This is what NPC corps protect you from and it only seems fair that you pay for it with a little tax.

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Wardec's doesn't affect you no matter how many members the wardec'ing alliance has since it is just a matter of disbanding and reforming the corp.
Actually if it's an alliance wardec'ing you they'll have spent 50m to do that, and you spend 1.6m to reform the corp.

That's your first argument shot down....

His alt will not be able to put up the POS in an NPC corp.

That's your second argument shot down....

Venkul's main point is that this 'change' actually changes nothing....
It's not making 'real' player corp any more attractive (and the large majority of them DO suck), and only really encourage people to move into 1-man corp.

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2009 10:32:00

Originally by: baltec1

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1. CCP do not look kindly on corp hopping to avoid war decs, it is also not an option for us as we are not spineless farmers.

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Wrong!
You're projecting your wistful thinking about shooting people into being what CCP thinks....

Have a look at this....

Originally by: GM Nythanos

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Hello,

For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so.

For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited.

To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1

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This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago.....

So the procedure will be:
Mission runner creates corp
You wardec corp (cost 2m, wait 24 hour)
Mission runner disbands corp (takes 2 seconds)
Mission runner creates new corp (takes 5 seconds, cost 1.6m)
You're left fuming

...and they're FULLY allowed to do it as many times as they want

It may have been considered an exploit once, but isn't anymore. I think the reason was that some people was wardec'ing other people to grief them out of the game (which is different from wardec'ing for an ingame offence), so CCP decided that since you could pay-to-grief, you could also pay to avoid it if you were willing to give up your corp.

Originally by: baltec1

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2. Point still stands, those assets are always at risk and cant be dumped in a station till its over. Unless the war decers are truely pathetic.

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Ehh, no. Any arguments about POS are void as these are not applicable to NPC corp. They thus have absolutely no relevance to the discussion about corp tax.

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Originally by: Daemonspirit

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C'MON GAIZ! Don't slow down now!

WE CAN MAKE 50 PAGES!

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Originally by: Michwich

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Edited by: Michwich on 26/09/2009 06:03:17

Originally by: Grath Telkin

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My work is done, helped stretch it out another page.

Your all whinging for nothing, the change IS going through, much like the Nano Nerf that so many were happy to see pass, this, will pass.

No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM.

As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder.

heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in.

Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do.

Only your not immune any more.

Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it.


Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on.

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I dont want to give up my immunity.

I will not join a loser gang.

11% is too much.

/unsubs

Whos next?

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Originally by: Ashina Sito

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First. Most of the posters that are commenting on the negative side of the change are not whining, they are simply stating that it will not do what CCP what it to do.

Secondly, nothing beats the amount of whinage that came from nano's getting fixed.

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