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The Banning of OverKill (CCPs response)

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Takahashi Yamamoto	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:45:00 - [1] Good Evening Citizens of EVE, Some of you know me as OverKill... Loud, Obnoxious, First to Fight, Ill Mannered, Son of a ... well you get the idea. Most of you don't know me at all (count your blessings). Here is a little rant that I wanted to get off my chest after what I consider to be a heinous raping of my consumer rights (without even the courtesy of a reach... nevermind). Enclosed you will find excerpts from a communication with an EVE GM although his name has been removed and some words changed so that it is not a direct cut and paste but the message rings clear. Quote: Your account was banned due to it having supplied ISK sellers with multiple billions of ISK on several occasions. The characters which you sent the ISK to were literally never used for anything other than receiving ISK from various sources and then laundering it on to players who had bought ISK for real life currency. The aforementioned sources varied between accounts run by the ISK sellers themselves which were using macro programs to automate gameplay, to player accounts which had been hacked into by the ISK sellers. There were also a few regular players supplying the characters with ISK which were being paid by the ISK sellers in exchange for the ISK, we have received testimonies from some of them stating that this was the reason for the ISK transaction. Umm what? First of all said "testimony" was never supplied at my formal request from CCP (as a consumer I feel I have a right to face my accusers if such exist). My actions? I transferred 15b from OverKill (my main) to Takahashi (my mining alt). That was money so he could buy a bunch of new toys. I also transfered 3b isk to a character who was recommended to me by a friend on getting a good deal on a Jump Freighter (for Takahashi). Finally I also paid 2b isk (in 1 billion increments) for mining rights for Takahashi for the months of August and September. Below you will see that they claim no evidence existed of ingame services being provided for the isk? Of course not dolt, because OverKill didn't need any of the services, Takahashi did. Next time read the petition properly instead of just giving me a rubber stamp form letter. When you have been in game for 7 years you deal in billions not millions. Large sums of money are going to move from player to player in ever increasing amounts as characters become more wealthy. Quote: There are no indications that any in-game service was being provided in exchange for the ISK you sent, it is quite clear to us what was going on here. The account will not be unbanned. The ingame service he is speaking of was my main account paying for my alt account to have mining rights in 0.0 space of an alliance. I cannot control if those alliance members are doing bad things with the isk that I provided to them. Whether they are selling it or not should have no bearing on my account. Ban them, not me. Might I remind you that I was an 85m skillpoint character, playing since BEFORE day 1? Why on earth would I break EULA now? 7 friggen years later? Use some common sense!!! Quote: Best Regards, Unlikely, if that is how you treat long time customers... nay, ANY customer. At this time I am still undecided whether or not to continue playing what was otherwise (middle management aside) a stellar game with amazing and dynamic people and environments. That is saying a lot since EVE has been a household name in my life for going on 7 years now. Still, I wanted to voice my opinion (as a customer) on gross incompetence and miss treatment. Whether this post survives on this forum or not makes no difference. My conscience is clean and clear! Cheers, OverKill AKA Takahashi (who still has 15b on his account! Word to your mother!)
Gunsnroses Hmmzor.	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:49:00 - [2] Bannings like this seem to happen in every game that gets big, and eventually has mass bannings. Diablo 2 was a good example, 1000s of accounts were wrongly banned, took blizzards months to fix the mess. Sadly the trend continues here. You are not the first person this has happened to in eve, and i fear not the last. I feel for you, and i hope it gets worked out.
ConXtionS	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:53:00 - [3] Mr. Kill I doubt you and I would ever have been friends, but you are correct.. this is just wrong... they should have SOME KIND OF EVIDENCE before they pull this crap. Im sorry sir Con
Sebastien LaForge Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:54:00 - [4] I could only ever hope to have 1bil ISK, let alone 15+ :(
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:54:00 - [5] Edited by: voogru on 22/09/2009 02:54:59 Quote: Umm what? First of all said "testimony" was never supplied at my formal request from CCP (as a consumer I feel I have a right to face my accusers if such exist). My actions? I transferred 15b from OverKill (my main) to Takahashi (my mining alt). That was money so he could buy a bunch of new toys. I also transfered 3b isk to a character who was recommended to me by a friend on getting a good deal on a Jump Freighter (for Takahashi).Finally I also paid 2b isk (in 1 billion increments) for mining rights for Takahashi for the months of August and September. Sniff sniff... sniff... whats that smell? It smells like... Sniff sniff. BS. Mining rights? What? So whats the name of the character you transfered ISK to for these so-called "mining rights"? Hate Farmers? Click Here
Takahashi Yamamoto	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:03:00 - [6] Originally by: voogru Did you pay 2B at once? Or did you make two individual transactions of 1B following each other immediately? Did you pay the full amount to one character? Or more than one character? I paid 1b with a note saying "Payment for mining rights for previous month" (with a time and date stamp in my wallet) and a second payment of 1 billion with a note attached to it for my internal record keeping right after the first payment. I was on vacation in RL for most of August and wasn't able to get caught up to date on my mining rights until the last 2 weeks. What does the persons name have to do with anything? It's not like their name was Miner12512512 All that sniffing makes me think you should really back away from the glass mirror my friend because clearly you are disillusion when you cannot tell that the BS you smell comes from the gaping orifice with which you utter words. Have a super day mkay!
F15T0	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Gunsnroses Bannings like this seem to happen in every game that gets big, and eventually has mass bannings. Diablo 2 was a good example, 1000s of accounts were wrongly banned, took blizzards months to fix the mess. Sadly the trend continues here. You are not the first person this has happened to in eve, and i fear not the last. I feel for you, and i hope it gets worked out. While I wont comment on the OPs case because I have no clue what was going there when I read about situations about MMO developers handing out permanent bans it really makes me think that its time for some kind of leglislation and enforcible trading standards. Many MMOs now have real currency based economys through things like item stores and special in game currency and even the ones that do not represent a significant investment in subscription fees and purchased expansions as well as the time invested into playing the game and currently there are no comebacks if a company willfully bans or by some misguided or even malicous action can rip customers off. This really needs to change.
Janice Jankowski	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:12:00 - [8] Assuming OP isn't lying, your issue seems to be that someone you sent isk to was selling it for RL money. How do CCP reasonably expect you to know who is and is not? Try escalating, and remember to be polite.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:18:00 - [9] Edited by: voogru on 22/09/2009 03:22:28 Originally by: Takahashi Yamamoto I paid 1b with a note saying "Payment for mining rights for previous month" (with a time and date stamp in my wallet) and a second payment of 1 billion with a note attached to it for my internal record keeping right after the first payment. I was on vacation in RL for most of August and wasn't able to get caught up to date on my mining rights until the last 2 weeks. What does the persons name have to do with anything? It's not like their name was Miner12512512 'Mining rights' sounds like BS, I'm sorry. You won't tell us who you sent money too either, so this leaves me to believe something is not quite right. Originally by: F15T0 While I wont comment on the OPs case because I have no clue what was going there when I read about situations about MMO developers handing out permanent bans it really makes me think that its time for some kind of leglislation and enforcible trading standards. Many MMOs now have real currency based economys through things like item stores and special in game currency and even the ones that do not represent a significant investment in subscription fees and purchased expansions as well as the time invested into playing the game and currently there are no comebacks if a company willfully bans or by some misguided or even malicous action can rip customers off. This really needs to change. Hahahahahaha. Are you for real? CCP's servers is their private property. Playing a video game is not a life essential. It is entertainment. IÆm sorry ôOverKillö, CCP isnÆt in the business of banning players for no reason. So I have to believe that you did something wrong in order to attract their attention. On another note, I looked up your contract history, looks like your last contract was June 22nd, which just so happens to be the date CCP did super mega ultra ISK seller ban if I'm not mistaken. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:19:00 - [10] IBTL, although I will admit this thread warms my heart. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:20:00 - [11] Originally by: F15T0 While I wont comment on the OPs case because I have no clue what was going there when I read about situations about MMO developers handing out permanent bans it really makes me think that its time for some kind of leglislation and enforcible trading standards. What an absolutely absurd idea. Since games like EVE forbid RMT in the EULA, our accounts have no monetary value, and the terms of use contract we agree to whenever we start the client after patching gives CCP the right to decline to do business with us whenever they want for whatever reason, a practice known more commonly as banning. Originally by: F15T0 Many MMOs now have real currency based economys through things like item stores and special in game currency and even the ones that do not represent a significant investment in subscription fees and purchased expansions as well as the time invested into playing the game and currently there are no comebacks if a company willfully bans or by some misguided or even malicous action can rip customers off. And I suspect that if you read the EULA's of those games and their terms of use contract I suspect you'd eventually find a line which states something like: "By clicking "I agree" I attest and agree that all services and products purchased within this media has no real monetary value and may not be refunded." Originally by: F15T0 This really needs to change. No it doesn't. I can't think of a single country that FORCES companies to do business with people. While I personally think the OP really isn't guilty of participating in RMT, there's no legal way to FORCE CCP to do further business with him, and any attempt to amend the law to allow for this would turn the legislator proposing it into a laughingstock.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Uronksur Suth any attempt to amend the law to allow for this would turn the legislator proposing it into a laughingstock. And thankfully our dumbass US laws would have no effect on CCP since they are in Iceland anyway. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:26:00 - [13] Originally by: voogru Originally by: Uronksur Suth any attempt to amend the law to allow for this would turn the legislator proposing it into a laughingstock. And thankfully our dumbass US laws would have no effect on CCP since they are in Iceland anyway. That too, I'm just assuming that any attempt to destroy free market principles in such an absurd fashion would make them a laughingstock anywhere.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Uronksur Suth "By clicking "I agree" I attest and agree that all services and products purchased within this media has no real monetary value and may not be refunded." I'm sure this is the box that opens when you first open the client after install, the one you have to scroll down to activate the 'accept' button.
Takahashi Yamamoto	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:30:00 - [15] Originally by: voogru On another note, I looked up your contract history, looks like your last contract was June 22nd, which just so happens to be the date CCP did super mega ultra ISK seller ban if I'm not mistaken. That may be my last PUBLIC contract maybe, not my last private contract, under the OVERKILL name. I am not sure that you can even see my private contract history. Assuming you could you would see contracts in early September (The ones mentioned in the original post). Why would they ban me within the last several days if they did a big super ultra mega duper ban fest back in June? Your logic is flawed and I get the feeling you are simply looking for something to troll about. Occam's razor and all that!
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:30:00 - [16] Edited by: voogru on 22/09/2009 03:36:17 Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: voogru Originally by: Uronksur Suth any attempt to amend the law to allow for this would turn the legislator proposing it into a laughingstock. And thankfully our dumbass US laws would have no effect on CCP since they are in Iceland anyway. That too, I'm just assuming that any attempt to destroy free market principles in such an absurd fashion would make them a laughingstock anywhere. The US already have tons of laws like this that basically force private businesses to do business with people or face huge lawsuits. Originally by: Takahashi Yamamoto That may be my last PUBLIC contract maybe, not my last private contract, under the OVERKILL name. It's just an observation, mate. 1. You would never get banned for trasfering ISK to your alt. They would blatantly see that it's your alt. I've transfered hundreds of billions of ISK back and forth between my alts. 2. The only other wildcard is the mysterious 2 billion ISK going to some player which you refuse to tell us who it is. For so called 'mining rights'. Now you'll probably just fabricate some random name of who you sent the money too, but the fact that you've refused to tell us who this player is pretty much sets in stone that, something smells fishy. Hate Farmers? Click Here
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:36:00 - [17] Edited by: voogru on 22/09/2009 03:36:03 Double post, go me. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:44:00 - [18] Originally by: voogru The US already have tons of laws like this that basically force private businesses to do business with people or face huge lawsuits. Yeah, basically private businesses can deny service to anyone AS LONG as doing so isn't discriminatory. And of course America is ridiculously law suit happy. Where I live, there's a 16 year old Muslim girl trying to sue Abercrombie and Fitch for not hiring her. She claims it was because she wears a head scarf and she wasn't hired because A&F hates Muslims.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:47:00 - [19] I know that very news story, the UK is becoming more letigious by the week.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Yeah, basically private businesses can deny service to anyone AS LONG as doing so isn't discriminatory. And of course America is ridiculously law suit happy. Where I live, there's a 16 year old Muslim girl trying to sue Abercrombie and Fitch for not hiring her. She claims it was because she wears a head scarf and she wasn't hired because A&F hates Muslims. Which basically means the following: If a business doesnÆt do something you want them to do, and youÆre a minority. Call your local BOB LOBLAW. ItÆs payday! Hate Farmers? Click Here
Takahashi Yamamoto	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:49:00 - [21] Voog, I could have given you the name of a friend, I could have given you a made up name, I could have even given you the name of my third account main character but the fact remains I didn't. If I had access to the overkill account still you betcha I would have posted it but the fact remains that I was told by an alliance officer to give the money to a specific character name (their holding account) and did so. That was over a week ago and I have no recollection of the exact username so rather than provide poorly remembered recollection I would prefer to stick to fact. Who it was given to makes no difference since that person has been accused of laundering and selling isk by CCP. That is fine with me, that is between CCP and that user and should in no way involve me. I am not responsible for the actions of another. My issue is that I want to see testimony and factual evidence to back up the claims of RMT. After 7 years of not once stepping across the line with my account why now? After 85 MILLION skillpoints, billions of isk and thousands of man hours invested why on earth would I trade isk with MY MAIN ACCOUNT?!?? I may be a lot of things (opinions vary) but I am not stupid. I mean it just doesn't make sense!! I think I was rubber stamped because whatever personnel were put in charge of the "investigation" that I requested simply pulled out the ban stick and rather than do their jobs gave me a form letter and told me to **** off.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: voogru The US already have tons of laws like this that basically force private businesses to do business with people or face huge lawsuits. Yeah, basically private businesses can deny service to anyone AS LONG as doing so isn't discriminatory. And of course America is ridiculously law suit happy. Where I live, there's a 16 year old Muslim girl trying to sue Abercrombie and Fitch for not hiring her. She claims it was because she wears a head scarf and she wasn't hired because A&F hates Muslims. Depending on the size of the business, discrimination is perfectly legal. You just have to very small to get away with it. And really, those law suits wouldn't even be worth talking about if people didn't insist on freaking out about them before the case is even heard by a court. Nearly all of them fail because businesses can turn new employees away all they want if the person's fashion doesn't match the corporate image. Been challenged and upheld many times (usually by fat people sueing Hooters).
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Takahashi Yamamoto Voog, I could have given you the name of a friend, I could have given you a made up name, I could have even given you the name of my third account main character but the fact remains I didn't. If I had access to the overkill account still you betcha I would have posted it but the fact remains that I was told by an alliance officer to give the money to a specific character name (their holding account) and did so. That was over a week ago and I have no recollection of the exact username so rather than provide poorly remembered recollection I would prefer to stick to fact. Quote: Your account was banned due to it having supplied ISK sellers with multiple billions of ISK on several occasions. The characters which you sent the ISK to were literally never used for anything other than receiving ISK from various sources and then laundering it on to players who had bought ISK for real life currency. The alliance apparently was involved with ISK selling and you supplied their ISK selling account with ISK. So it appears CCP is absolutely correct that, you supplied a holding character with billions of ISK which then got RMTÆed. Granted, you should not be held liable if someone sells ISK that you sent to them, but when there are multiple transactions with obscure reasons or no reasons at all you have to believe there is something fishy going on. What alliance was this? Surely you would remember the alliance? Do you remember ANYTHING about a character you sent over two billion ISK too, for æmining rightsÆ? Hate Farmers? Click Here
F15T0	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:01:00 - [24] Originally by: voogru Originally by: F15T0 While I wont comment on the OPs case because I have no clue what was going there when I read about situations about MMO developers handing out permanent bans it really makes me think that its time for some kind of leglislation and enforcible trading standards. Many MMOs now have real currency based economys through things like item stores and special in game currency and even the ones that do not represent a significant investment in subscription fees and purchased expansions as well as the time invested into playing the game and currently there are no comebacks if a company willfully bans or by some misguided or even malicous action can rip customers off. This really needs to change. Hahahahahaha. Are you for real? CCP's servers is their private property. Playing a video game is not a life essential. It is entertainment. IÆm sorry ôOverKillö, CCP isnÆt in the business of banning players for no reason. So I have to believe that you did something wrong in order to attract their attention. On another note, I looked up your contract history, looks like your last contract was June 22nd, which just so happens to be the date CCP did super mega ultra ISK seller ban if I'm not mistaken. Firstly I was not reffering to CCP in particular I was replying to the guy who claimed some other MMO developer banned thousands of players for flimsy reasons. Secondly my point stands many MMOs have real currency based economys where there is no legal comeback in cases of dodgy practices, and no a MMO is not an essential service but neither are things like Cable TV, or Mobile phone contracts and there are legal protections to help protect consumers, "private property" has nothing to do with it and EULAs have almost no legal basis if a court decides otherwise. So yes I am serious the MMO industry is in dire need of legislation and legally enforcable oversight if a consumers rights are abused. Yes companys can and should be able choose to refuse to offer someone a service but they should not be able to agree to provide a service and then refuse to continue the service and in the process deprive somebody of something with intrinsic real world value. Thats theft.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:03:00 - [25] Originally by: voogru Originally by: Uronksur Suth Yeah, basically private businesses can deny service to anyone AS LONG as doing so isn't discriminatory. And of course America is ridiculously law suit happy. Where I live, there's a 16 year old Muslim girl trying to sue Abercrombie and Fitch for not hiring her. She claims it was because she wears a head scarf and she wasn't hired because A&F hates Muslims. Which basically means the following: If a business doesnÆt do something you want them to do, and youÆre a minority. Call your local BOB LOBLAW. ItÆs payday! Exactly. It is so damn annoying. Anyways, back on topic, my advice is the OP is to try and escalate, and for the love of God keep it polite. I think that when you do things like make deposits to other characters wallets, especially in large amounts you should be prepared for the slight chance that you may end up caught in this. After all, CCP only has your word that you were giving him ISK in good faith and not just trying to cover your ass. You just had the misfortune of being caught up in a RMT sting as one of several people feeding large quantities of ISK to a seller. If you continue to escalate and dialogue with CCP you have a chance that they'll give you the benefit of a doubt.
Takahashi Yamamoto	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Uronksur Suth If you continue to escalate and dialogue with CCP you have a chance that they'll give you the benefit of a doubt. Good advice. I would like to think this would escalate things but we'll see how it goes. Cheers, OverKill
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:06:00 - [27] Originally by: F15T0 Yes companys can and should be able choose to refuse to offer someone a service but they should not be able to agree to provide a service and then refuse to continue the service and in the process deprive somebody of something with intrinsic real world value. Thats theft. All your items in EVE are belong to CCP. CCP gives you permission to play with their toys. If you don't play by the rules, they take their toys back. Hate Farmers? Click Here
F15T0	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:11:00 - [28] Originally by: voogru Originally by: F15T0 Yes companys can and should be able choose to refuse to offer someone a service but they should not be able to agree to provide a service and then refuse to continue the service and in the process deprive somebody of something with intrinsic real world value. Thats theft. All your items in EVE are belong to CCP. CCP gives you permission to play with their toys. If you don't play by the rules, they take their toys back. Not just CCP the MMO industry, and its not just in game items what if somebody has brought lots of PLEX (an item that CCP sells for real currency and as such has a defined real world value) and has them sitting in thier hanger waiting to be applied to thier account or they have paid up for a 12 month subscription and have 11 months left? Again it isnt really about CCP but the industry in general as this could be abused.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:15:00 - [29] Originally by: F15T0 have paid up for a 12 month subscription and have 11 months left? Call your credit card company. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:17:00 - [30] Originally by: F15T0 "private property" has nothing to do with it and EULAs have almost no legal basis if a court decides otherwise. I'm not sure if your a gibbering idiot, so I'll explain this simply. EVE Online is a private intellectual property of CCP. All the servers are the private property of CCP. What we buy is the right to log onto those servers, and play on their property. Things obtained in EVE have no value outside of the game. Our characters have no inherent value. The ONLY instance of game assets that are done with real money are GTCs, and buying those I can guarantee contains fine-print releasing CCP from liability, all purchases are final, no refunds, "you agree that all EVE ONLINE characters have no real monetary value". If CCP decides to discontinue taking your money, and decides to no longer allow someone to use their PRIVATE PROPERTY when the contract has lapsed, that is perfectly legitimate. And if you think that a court is going to overturn a EULA, which is a private contract between you and a private company regarding your use of their property, your quite simply insane. Originally by: F15T0 So yes I am serious the MMO industry is in dire need of legislation and legally enforcable oversight if a consumers rights are abused. We have no rights to use a private companies private property, you moron. Originally by: F15T0 Yes companys can and should be able choose to refuse to offer someone a service but they should not be able to agree to provide a service and then refuse to continue the service and in the process deprive somebody of something with intrinsic real world value. They don't. A ban is something done when YOU have violated the contract, which absolves them of any further obligation to provide service. If CCP suddenly emailed me and told me they were dropping my account because they felt like it. I would indeed actually be entitled for a refund as THEY were breaking contract. And for the love of God, PLEASE realize that video game characters have no real monetary worth whatsoever. Thats one of those things you agreed in the contract. Originally by: F15T0 Thats theft.

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