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Ditra Vorthran State War Academy Caldari State 48	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:32:00 - [1] - Quote IGÇÖve been hesitant to bring this up, but I really feel I need to get something off my chest. IGÇÖve been around for about 3 years, in various incarnations. As an industrialist, IGÇÖve seen a lot, done a lot, and lost a lot. IGÇÖve lost a variety of ships. My first loss was when I wandered into a 0.4 system in an Osprey and warped to an belt and saw Asteroid (Jaspet) on my overview and went. GÇ£Huh. I wonder what that is, and proceeded to slowboat over to the asteroid (bookmarks were a foreign concept at the time). Some guy warped in, blew me away and warped out, leaving me sitting there going, GÇ£What the **?! What did I do to deserve that?!GÇ¥ Being a noob was reason enough. My second major loss was when some friends and I were set up in a high sec pocket separated from the rest of the galaxy by two low sec systems. I got lazy and lost a weeks worth of work when I didnGÇÖt bother to fit my badger with warp core stabilizers. Silly me. IGÇÖve lost Hulks and Freighters, frigates and cruisers. IGÇÖve even lost a Basilisk for lols when our fleet decided to jump into a larger enemy force for no other reason to let them know we werenGÇÖt afraid of them. To make a long story short, IGÇÖve been around the block. Like many, IGÇÖm risk averse, but not loss averse. I do my best to mitigate my potential losses, but take losses with aplomb when they do happen. That being saidGÇª There have been a lot of GÇ£Miners donGÇÖt belong in EvEGÇ¥ posts , with varying levels of vitriol and for the most part itGÇÖs rolled off me like water off a ducksGÇÖ back. For whatever reason, a couple of days ago, I read yet another one of those posts. Maybe it was my mood, maybe it was because I didnGÇÖt get a lot of sleep the night before, who knows. It really got me thinking, questioning my place in this game. And hereGÇÖs what I think. I assume you care since youGÇÖre reading this post. If not, then off and waste your time elsewhere. I can take getting shot at. I can take getting ganked. I can take being hunted. What can I not take? Disrespect. I have spent the last few years becoming the best miner I can be, braving all regions of space, going where the ore is. High Sec, Low Sec, Null Sec, I came, I scouted, I mined. I go out in ships worth hundreds of millions of ISK with a sub-standard tank (at the best of times) for the sole purpose of making the bullets that you use to blow my brains out. And what do I get for it? GÇ£GTFO, Eve is hardcore PvP. MinerGÇÖs donGÇÖt belong in EvE.GÇ¥ Well ** you! Mining was the first thing you could do in EvE. You GTFO out of my game, I was here first! Without miners and builders, what are you flying? Hopes and dreams? Maybe itGÇÖs the PvPers want to turn EvE into a Theme-Park MMO, because if all the miners disappear, the only way youGÇÖre getting the gear you means is questsGÇªerGÇªPvE. Is that what you want? A nice purple ship with orange guns that have augment slots? T2 gear is made from T1 items as a base component. That T1 component is built with minerals. Minerals come from ore and ore comes fromGÇªwait for itGÇªasteroids (and don't give me that reprocessed loot crap). Without minerals, you can have all the Technium in the universe and itGÇÖs worthless because you canGÇÖt turn it into anything useful. GÇ£U mad bro?GÇ¥ Goddamnit, you bet IGÇÖm mad! Even when miners learn their lesson, tank fit hulks, mine in covetors/battleships instead of exhumers, accept their losses instead of whining, and do all the right things to mitigate their losses and GÇÿdo it right,GÇÖ apparently, just by being miners, weGÇÖre GÇÿdoing it wrong.GÇÖ We just canGÇÖt win. GÇ£Hulks arenGÇÖt suppose to be in High Sec.GÇ¥ Well thatGÇÖs a nice little opinion you have there, but until CCP bans Hulks from High Sec like they did Caps, then yes, they are suppose to be there. That you can hunt and kill them, and they still need to take steps to protect themselves, but they have as much right to be there as you. I have a PvPer friend. HeGÇÖs mined with me from time to time. He hates it. He thinks itGÇÖs the most boring thing to do in the game. I canGÇÖt remember the last time he hopped into his Retriever. He doesnGÇÖt understand why I like it. IGÇÖve explained it to him and he is content to nod his head and go , GÇ£If you say so.GÇ¥ And thatGÇÖs fine. HeGÇÖs not a fan of mining and IGÇÖm not a fan of PvP. He finds mining boring, and I find PvP stressful. That being said, he understands my place in EvE. He respects my role as a producer that makes his role as a PvPer possible. He admires, and is a little envious of, my skill with spreadsheets, my ability to product efficiency charts for different products, and so on. That doesnGÇÖt make me better than him, it just means that I have a place in the scheme of Eve. I do it very well. I add value to EvE, and he respects me for it. Likewise, he is very good as PvPer. I canGÇÖt think the way he does. The strategic and tactical projections that go on in his head before, during and after a battle, I find baffling. At an equal skill/experience level, he would kick my ass for no other reason than he thinks differently than I do. That doesnGÇÖt make him better than I. He is just different. Superior at a different, yet no less important, aspect of EvE than I. In conclusion, only ask for one thing. Not a GÇÿsafeGÇÖ Eve, nor an invulnerable mining ship. Not even faster CONCORD response times or that GÇÿDeath RayGÇÖ that was bandied about at Fanfest. All I want is respect. Respect for my role, respect for the value I bring to EvE. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. whew Okay, IGÇÖm done now. I've vented and feel better. Back to mining! :D
Price Check Aisle3 79	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:35:00 - [2] - Quote tl;dr Ditra Vorthran wrote: GÇ£Hulks arenGÇÖt suppose to be in High Sec.GÇ¥ They don't.
THE L0CK Denying You Access 447	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:36:00 - [3] - Quote GD is the last place that you'll find what you are looking for. Just a heads up yo. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Lady Spank Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 2290	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:36:00 - [4] - Quote Ditra Vorthran Security Status 0.0 State War Academy [SWA] Member for 11 months, 21 days You deserve no respect. Post with your main or GTFO. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â)
Ditra Vorthran State War Academy Caldari State 49	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:37:00 - [5] - Quote THE L0CK wrote: GD is the last place that you'll find what you are looking for. Just a heads up yo. Oh I know. Like I said, I just wanted to vent. :)
Tor Gungnir Agenda Industries 192	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:38:00 - [6] - Quote Price Check Aisle3 wrote: tl;dr Ditra Vorthran wrote: GÇ£Hulks arenGÇÖt suppose to be in High Sec.GÇ¥ They don't. Says who? The only ships that don't belong in High-Sec are the ones that are incapable of getting there. "I must break you."
Lady Spank Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 2290	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:40:00 - [7] - Quote Where I come from you earn respect, not demand it. Ditra Vorthran wrote: I go out in ships worth hundreds of millions of ISK with a sub-standard tank (at the best of times) for the sole purpose of making the bullets that you use to blow my brains out. And what do I get for it? You get the obvious, a pretty and easy explosion. Some people aren't here for a challenge. They are called Miners, or Gankers. Even then, some people just want to have a bit of casual fun as a break from their normal activities. That you choose to take a casual activity and make it your end-game just confirms exactly how much respect you deserve. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â)
lanyaie 421	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:40:00 - [8] - Quote wall of text....didn't read I dont post often, but when I do i'm probably trolling you Currently offering 100% legit hulkageddon security sponsored by the mittani, send 50m to me and 50m to him
ModeratedToSilence Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 91	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:44:00 - [9] - Quote There is no reason to give the angry kiddies the time of day. Just be aware that many of the "gankers" are pluralists. They have gank alts, fleet alts, small gang alts, 0.0 mining alts, indusrtry alts etc etc.
Ditra Vorthran State War Academy Caldari State 53	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:49:00 - [10] - Quote Lady Spank wrote: Where I come from you earn respect, not demand it. Agreed, but respect can be earned in different ways. Respect isn't earned solely at the end of a barrel. Lady Spank wrote: You get the obvious, a pretty and easy explosion. Some people aren't here for a challenge. They are called Miners, or Gankers. Even then, some people just want to have a bit of casual fun as a break from their normal activities. That you choose to take a casual activity and make it your end-game just confirms exactly how much respect you deserve. I don't mind being the victim of a pretty explosion. As for 'not being here for a challenge' is again dependent of what you consider a challenge. Obviously what you consider a challenge is not what I consider a challenge, but I respect your right to your opinion. We just have different measureing sticks to our accomplishments. What I don't appreciate is that you use your measuring stick to measure my accomplishments. Don't say I fail at Eve because I didn't get a positive efficiency rating on my killboard last month. I'm not here to measure up to your expectations. I don't dengrate you because you didn't mine 60 million units of minerals last month. I repspect that a good PvPer is a good PvPer. I just choose not to PvP unless I have to.
Nyreanya Serenity Labs New Eden Research. 136	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:50:00 - [11] - Quote Came prepared to troll. Read through it, nodding as I went. Well said.
Marlona Sky Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies. 1063	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:51:00 - [12] - Quote lanyaie wrote: wall of text....didn't read Then stay off the forums. Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner!
Sara XIII Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 82	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:57:00 - [13] - Quote Nyreanya wrote: Came prepared to troll. Read through it, nodding as I went. Was very well said. I agree, well said OP. Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Wilma Lawson Hedion University Amarr Empire 72	Posted - 2012.06.06 20:57:00 - [14] - Quote Nicely written, and I totally agree with it! Way to go Capsuleer! Stand proud!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 7729	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:02:00 - [15] - Quote Ditra Vorthran wrote: There have been a lot of GÇ£Miners donGÇÖt belong in EvEGÇ¥ posts , with varying levels of vitriol and for the most part itGÇÖs rolled off me like water off a ducksGÇÖ back. Not really. There have been a lot of GÇ£people who whine about being subject to PvP don't belong in EVEGÇ¥ posts GÇö miners just tend to be overrepresented in that group. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 141	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:05:00 - [16] - Quote Lady Spank wrote: Where I come from you earn respect, not demand it. Wait, kb-humping earns respect? Confirming that ppl are impressed. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1176	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:17:00 - [17] - Quote Tippia wrote: Ditra Vorthran wrote: There have been a lot of GÇ£Miners donGÇÖt belong in EvEGÇ¥ posts , with varying levels of vitriol and for the most part itGÇÖs rolled off me like water off a ducksGÇÖ back. Not really. There have been a lot of GÇ£people who whine about being subject to PvP don't belong in EVEGÇ¥ posts GÇö miners just tend to be overrepresented in that group. I think everybody, including you, should recall James 315 apologetic rants. This is where all of this "new hate" has started and you know it. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Onyx Nyx Perkone Caldari State 21	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:23:00 - [18] - Quote Didn't your mother tell you that respect is earned?
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1874	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:24:00 - [19] - Quote Ditra Vorthran wrote: In conclusion, only ask for one thing. Not a GÇÿsafeGÇÖ Eve, nor an invulnerable mining ship. Not even faster CONCORD response times or that GÇÿDeath RayGÇÖ that was bandied about at Fanfest. All I want is respect. Respect for my role, respect for the value I bring to EvE. OK, I'll play along. Do you agree with all of the following? 1. Hulks should not be buffed in any way, shape or form. 2. Suicide ganking should not be nerfed again. 3. Wardecs, awoxing, can-flipping, and every other form of highsec PvP should not be nerfed again. 4. Highsec mining should not be buffed again. If you disagree with any of the above, you are a carebear, and your whole post is moot because you suffer from the "one more nerf" syndrome which effectively means you do, in fact, want an invulnerable mining ship, etc. If you agree with all of the above points, good for you. It's the carebears who give the other 0.0000001% of highsec miners a bad name.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 7730	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:24:00 - [20] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I think everybody, including you, should recall James 315 apologetic rants. This is where all of this "new hate" has started and you know it. No, I really don't, because there's nothing new about it. It's been there all along and the reasons have been the same pretty much since I started playing EVE. In that time, miners (primarily, but occasionally accompanied by mission runners) have always complained about not being safe to do what they do, and people have always been telling them that they don't belong in EVE. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Gonada The Oasis Group Combat Mining and Logistics 11	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:35:00 - [21] - Quote Lady Spank wrote: Ditra Vorthran Security Status 0.0 State War Academy [SWA] Member for 11 months, 21 days You deserve no respect. Post with your main or GTFO. Ill post with my main arswipe, 2003 char , OP is telling it like it is, you gtfo. Sandbox means you can do whatever you want. Period.
Tallon Sylph GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 40	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:37:00 - [22] - Quote TLDR, I assume you're mad about something though.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 7730	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:39:00 - [23] - Quote Gonada wrote: Sandbox means you can do whatever you want. No. It means everyone can do what they want, which will include things you do not want them to do (to you) and which will keep you from doing what you want. Or, to use my new favourite Malcanis quote: sandbox doesn't mean you can succeed at everything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. You should probably note that the OP never even mentioned the wordGÇª GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Jacob Holland Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found 49	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:42:00 - [24] - Quote Nicely put OP. Though I guess most of those who would benefit most from reading it stopped at about the second paragraph
Svarek University of Caille Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:44:00 - [25] - Quote This is humorously like real life, where the foundations of society always get looked down upon and trod upon. And yet those high and mighties above them seem to entirely forget where everything they use comes from - the despised classes. Yes, there's a lot of Carebear hulk miners. Yes, a lot of those miners are unreasonable. And yes, nobody really likes them. But they're the minority of miners, I think, and the ones we just love to hate. BUT- Players too often, I think, make the mistake of hating and looking down on ALL miners instead of realizing that the ones they hate are the people who never got into Eve past the first few industrial tutorials, and simply got bigger ships after that point. They still play the game in a very simplistic way, and their attitudes don't fit into the universe. They're still producers. More importantly, all miners are producers. They have a vital, vital role in the Eve universe, and it boggles my mind how some people can apparently forget it, and bite the hand that feeds them. Miners always have my respect until they lose it, I think, even if they're the ones at the wrong end of my guns. Grandpa Bill: "I remember my uncle Joe who used to go mining, back then it was easy to get black lung, but we called it coughing lung because we really didnt care what color it was, the coughing seemed like it should be in the title since he did so much of it."
Cavel Avada Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 12	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:51:00 - [26] - Quote Svarek wrote: This is humorously like real life, where the foundations of society always get looked down upon and trod upon. And yet those high and mighties above them seem to entirely forget where everything they use comes from - the despised classes. Yes, there's a lot of Carebear hulk miners. Yes, a lot of those miners are unreasonable. And yes, nobody really likes them. But they're the minority of miners, I think, and the ones we just love to hate. BUT- Players too often, I think, make the mistake of hating and looking down on ALL miners instead of realizing that the ones they hate are the people who never got into Eve past the first few industrial tutorials, and simply got bigger ships after that point. They still play the game in a very simplistic way, and their attitudes don't fit into the universe. They're still producers. More importantly, all miners are producers. They have a vital, vital role in the Eve universe, and it boggles my mind how some people can apparently forget it, and bite the hand that feeds them. Miners always have my respect until they lose it, I think, even if they're the ones at the wrong end of my guns. Well said. The other big mistake people seem to make is trying to lump all miners together because of the comments/actions of a few on the forums. There are quite a few players who never go near the forums.
Wingmate Raven's Flight Vanguard. 15	Posted - 2012.06.06 21:54:00 - [27] - Quote well said, OP. i think it's worth reinforcing one of his points. i think it's ridiculous that people consider PvP to be the endgame, and that if you're not interested in PvP, you're a noob/moron/worthless/ruining the game. i'm one of those people that just doesn't enjoy PvP as much as other things in this game, and so i don't seek it out. now, i live in null, so i still shoot stuff from time to time - usually in defense of others in my alliance - but i don't go roaming 20j away looking for something to kill. do i get looked down upon by members of my corp? sure. do those same members know who to talk to when they need to make isk to finance their pretty explosions? sure. everyone's got a different focus, and you can excel at those different parts of the game without being some super-duper PvP pilot. it really does boil down to respect. people say it needs to be earned, and that's true - EvE is the last place to look for a handout (although if you think differently, i've got loads of mex i am liquidating at rock-bottom prices!). there's a difference between saying that people need to earning respect, however, and just automatically assuming you're better than everyone else because they don't follow your profession. there's a difference between treating someone neutrally and treating them like metal scraps. i feel that most pilots in eve approach someone with the opinion that they're worthless, and wait for them to rise up to their 'level'. i've found that it's better to approach them as neutral, and let them derp their way down to obscurity or rise above the muck.
Metal Icarus xHELLonEARTHx LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 195	Posted - 2012.06.06 22:01:00 - [28] - Quote Lady Spank wrote: Ditra Vorthran Security Status 0.0 State War Academy [SWA] Member for 11 months, 21 days You deserve no respect. Post with your main or GTFO. So, you think earning respect from your enemies means you can demand respect from everyone else? This coming from someone whose alliance sold the tournament last year? Holy crap your ego is MASSIVE, it might be leaking a little bull-****. You should fix that. I agree with OP. Miners mine so I dont have to!
Gonada The Oasis Group Combat Mining and Logistics 11	Posted - 2012.06.06 22:17:00 - [29] - Quote Tippia wrote: Gonada wrote: Sandbox means you can do whatever you want. No. It means everyone can do what they want, which will include things you do not want them to do (to you) and which will keep you from doing what you want. Or, to use my new favourite Malcanis quote: sandbox doesn't mean you can succeed at everything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. You should probably note that the OP never even mentioned the wordGÇª Your just reiterating what I said, I agree, totally
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1874	Posted - 2012.06.06 22:20:00 - [30] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I think everybody, including you, should recall James 315 apologetic rants. This is where all of this "new hate" has started and you know it. So the carebears spend years doing nothing but aimlessly piling up rocks and bleating out whiny, hypocritical nerf demands. Then, when people go to the effort of playing EVE with them by engaging in a little PvP, the carebears flood the forums with more tears and nerf demands (and occasional death threats). And you lot wonder why we don't "respect" you?

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