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Harcole
Amarr Sanguine Unity Raikiri Assasins
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Posted - 2009.09.24 12:26:00 -
[1]
With the upcoming boost to Pirate factions the Nightmare, already a better choice than the Paladin due to tracking/fitting requirements, has just become even more powerful than its counter part Tech 2.
Is there any plans to address this in the future?
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Stealthbug
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:09:00 -
[2]
Actually, it sounds to me like the Nightmare is doing exactly what it was intended to do. What is there to address?
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Harcole
Amarr Sanguine Unity Raikiri Assasins
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:19:00 -
[3]
The issue to address is that of balance, Nightmares are already one of the better choices for missions, adding better tanking to them and still allowing them to fit 4 tachyon II's with that tank will make it flavour of the month.
A Paladin struggles to fit any tank with 4 tachyon's add to this the bounus to tracking on the Nightmare and the Paladin becomes an expensive destroyer used for salvaging and little else.
Either remove some power grid from the Nightmare or add some to the Paladin so that the Marauder class ships are somewhat similar, whilst I don't want them to be able to do the exact same things the differences that SISI shows is somewhat silly.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:47:00 -
[4]
Uh? You know that ships are not balanced for missions, do you?
As for setups: all you need is 1 LAR+3x hard on paladin to run all missions w/o bigger problems. So i dont see any issue here.
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Harcole
Amarr Sanguine Unity Raikiri Assasins
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:02:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Uh? You know that ships are not balanced for missions, do you?
As for setups: all you need is 1 LAR+3x hard on paladin to run all missions w/o bigger problems. So i dont see any issue here.
My argument is not to balance the mission running abilities but at least bring the ships in to line, my argument is invalid if I am wrong about believing that the ships are marauder class.
The difference for PvP Nightmare Vs. PvE Paladin is how it should be, however looking at a Paladin PvP fit, the Nightware has approx:
150dps better tank with 11k extra EFH (through higher resists on shields) 350dps better damage (mainly due to sheild vs armor tank slots so taking the heat sinks off, the Nightmare is +18dps over the Paladin without sacraficing a tank)
taking skills in to account, Amarr 5 Maruder 5 Cladari 4.
If the Faction ships were re classed as something other than Marauder then the this would be irrelevant, as I said above.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Harcole
If the Faction ships were re classed as something other than Marauder then the this would be irrelevant, as I said above.
Because faction ships ARE classed as something different than marauders. You cant compare machariel to vargur. Nor rattlesnake to golem. Same reason you cant compare paladin to nightmare.
And if you REALLY want to compare pvp paladin to pvp mare. If you include "infinite isk" setups (x-types, crystal sets etc) paladin will win over nightmare. Why? Larger cargohold for cap charges. There you go - already has one huge advantage. Next one? 4 mids. Try to mount mwd/web/scram/injector on nightmare and tell me how good your remaining tank is. You gain some in one place, you lose in other like with all ships.
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Harcole
Amarr Sanguine Unity Raikiri Assasins
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Because faction ships ARE classed as something different than marauders.
My bad then! I seem to recall a blog when the "marauder" class battleships were released stating that these were the empire versions of the existing faction battleships. I shall go crawl back under a rock and continue to just play eve instead!
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Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:15:00 -
[8]
Nightmare is also harder to acquire and is/was more expensive, next question?
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.24 15:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jamyl TashMurkon Nightmare is also harder to acquire and is/was more expensive, next question?
Actually nightmare is harder to acquire (luck based or pirate LP shop as opposed to invention + production) but is cheaper. Due to dyspro/prom price rise paladin is about 300mil isk more expensive :X (nm around 1bil, pala around 1,3)
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.09.24 15:36:00 -
[10]
I don't see T2 resists, web and tractor bonuses on the Nightmare, do you?
The Paladin is infinitely more efficient when it comes to ISK/h. The Nightmare is hella lot sexier though. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
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Harcole
Amarr Sanguine Unity Raikiri Assasins
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Posted - 2009.09.25 07:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries I don't see T2 resists, web and tractor bonuses on the Nightmare, do you?
The Paladin is infinitely more efficient when it comes to ISK/h. The Nightmare is hella lot sexier though.
I don't see T2 resist on a Paladin either, mind telling me where you got yours from!
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Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.09.25 07:19:00 -
[12]
Your comparing an apple with an overpriced bling banana. The Nightmare is better, and will cost more than you Paladin. Thats all there is to it.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.09.25 07:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Harcole I don't see T2 resist on a Paladin either, mind telling me where you got yours from!
Originally by: Nightmare
Shield: EM = 0% Explosive = 50% Kinetic = 40% Thermal = 20%
Armor: EM = 50% Explosive = 20% Kinetic = 25% Thermal = 35%
Originally by: Paladin
Shield: EM = 0% Explosive = 62,5% Kinetic = 47,5% Thermal = 20%
Armor: EM = 50% Explosive = 40% Kinetic = 34,375% Thermal = 35%
Learn to compare? In addition, the Paladin gets 10 locked targets instead of 7 and other om noms.
----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
Harcole
Amarr Sanguine Unity Raikiri Assasins
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Posted - 2009.09.25 08:05:00 -
[14]
Shield bonus on an armor tanked ship, intresting conecpt and whilst they are slightly higher than normal hardly the norm for Amarr T2 resistances. Either way as was stated above, I've admitted that comparing these two ships is wrong.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.25 09:04:00 -
[15]
Marauders got half the "regular" T2 bonus as can be seen on HACs if I recall, so not quite T2 but together with repair bonus it adds up.
Marauder Devblog
The shield bonus on the Sacrilege makes it the ultimate shield buffer tanked Angel hunting machine, so don't scoff at that little fact
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.09.27 14:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Captain Vampire Your comparing an apple with an overpriced bling banana. The Nightmare is better, and will cost more than you Paladin. Thats all there is to it.
Funny thing about thsoe statements is that both is wrong. The Nightmare isn't better, and it's not more expensive. As it stands, you can get a NM for around 950-1000 mil, while the Paladin is 1000+. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.09.27 15:19:00 -
[17]
Paladin's only disadvantage compared to the Nightmare is the lack of tracking bonus. If you can't decently tank a Paladin with deadspace hardeners and 3 heatsinks to handle any level 4, then you're doing it wrong.
Back when webs were strong enough that you could fit a domination web and bring frigs down to 10m/s and nuke them with a single tachyon, this made the Paladin a lot better than the Nightmare.
I think the Paladin deserves the Apoc's range bonus. This might be totally overpowered but it would be totally awesome. -- Eventus stultorum magister. |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.27 15:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: Captain Vampire Your comparing an apple with an overpriced bling banana. The Nightmare is better, and will cost more than you Paladin. Thats all there is to it.
Funny thing about thsoe statements is that both is wrong. The Nightmare isn't better, and it's not more expensive. As it stands, you can get a NM for around 950-1000 mil, while the Paladin is 1000+.
Depends how you use it. For blitzing I would say that Nightmare is indeed better. Tank is irrelevant once you can do missions without having to warp out. That extra bit of tracking actually helps, especially after both ships mount 3 tracking mods and hit the stacking wall.
However, as stated before they are somewhat different ships still. For some missionrunners that 40 km tracktor is significant advantage and considerable contributor in their isk/h.
In my opinion situation is statisfactory for Nightmare vs Paladin. They both have their advantages that make then 'better' for particular playstyles. If I would complain I would complain about some other pirate battleships (with their current stats in SiSi) not being good enough or about minny and gallente marauders (altho yes - they are not THAT bad, but still).
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