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Cruiser role & dual-MWD change

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Arvalen Eno	Posted - 2004.10.25 00:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Daerkannon Shimmerscale Changing production time won't really help much at this point as factory slots are cheap and plentiful. Producers will simply rent more of them and make production alts to take up the slack. I think it wouldn't really matter that much though, when in the end it still takes couple weeks to build single ship. While yes, you can get additional slots, the extra problems with logistics of moving all the minerals around, with locking significant amounts of resources for a long time before you see the finished ship, and finally with having to plan your actions weeks in advance just to stay ahead of regular losses... it'd make it more difficult for many corporations to keep their members in battleships during prolonged conflicts. In the end making the cruisers more appealing. Some changes to game mechanics that'd limit number of ways people can currently use to avoid losing their (battle)ship, combined with the above... could help to make the lesser ships more popular, too. But that's another story. "Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs."
Arvalen Eno	Posted - 2004.10.25 00:44:00 - [32] Originally by: Daerkannon Shimmerscale Changing production time won't really help much at this point as factory slots are cheap and plentiful. Producers will simply rent more of them and make production alts to take up the slack. I think it wouldn't really matter that much though, when in the end it still takes couple weeks to build single ship. While yes, you can get additional slots, the extra problems with logistics of moving all the minerals around, with locking significant amounts of resources for a long time before you see the finished ship, and finally with having to plan your actions weeks in advance just to stay ahead of regular losses... it'd make it more difficult for many corporations to keep their members in battleships during prolonged conflicts. In the end making the cruisers more appealing. Some changes to game mechanics that'd limit number of ways people can currently use to avoid losing their (battle)ship, combined with the above... could help to make the lesser ships more popular, too. But that's another story. "Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs."
Arvalen Eno	Posted - 2004.10.25 00:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Darkwolf Increasing production time by EIGHTY-FOUR times is not an adjustment. That's like calling Ground Zero at Hiroshima a "warm day". Yup, perhaps. But can we agree on the reasoning behind the change, if not the change itself? I mean, there can be other ways to achieve the desired effect, i just didn't think of them. Plus, is there any good argument against such change, other than "it's not beta anymore"? That is, would such modification have some possible bad side-effect that i failed to see and which would outweight potential benefits? "Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs."
Arvalen Eno	Posted - 2004.10.25 00:52:00 - [34] Originally by: Darkwolf Increasing production time by EIGHTY-FOUR times is not an adjustment. That's like calling Ground Zero at Hiroshima a "warm day". Yup, perhaps. But can we agree on the reasoning behind the change, if not the change itself? I mean, there can be other ways to achieve the desired effect, i just didn't think of them. Plus, is there any good argument against such change, other than "it's not beta anymore"? That is, would such modification have some possible bad side-effect that i failed to see and which would outweight potential benefits? "Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs."
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:12:00 - [35] it's more if you can find any Eve vet who'd agree (outside the lunatic fringe) with it "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:12:00 - [36] it's more if you can find any Eve vet who'd agree (outside the lunatic fringe) with it "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Ethan Tomlinson	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:19:00 - [37] you guys who r whining a bout the cruisers being useless without dual mwd's are retarted. let ccp do what they want with the dual mwd setup and dont play the game if you dont like it. cruisers have there roles as do intercepters, assault ships, heavy assault ships, frigates, haulers, battleships, logistics cruisers, covert ops frigs, and ***** shuttles. ccp is only trying to make it more of a role playing game not a one ship pwns all game. quit being little whiny ***s and addapt to win in this game!
Ethan Tomlinson	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:19:00 - [38] you guys who r whining a bout the cruisers being useless without dual mwd's are retarted. let ccp do what they want with the dual mwd setup and dont play the game if you dont like it. cruisers have there roles as do intercepters, assault ships, heavy assault ships, frigates, haulers, battleships, logistics cruisers, covert ops frigs, and ***** shuttles. ccp is only trying to make it more of a role playing game not a one ship pwns all game. quit being little whiny ***s and addapt to win in this game!
Arvalen Eno	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:22:00 - [39] Originally by: Maya Rkell it's more if you can find any Eve vet who'd agree (outside the lunatic fringe) with it Way to put yourself in position of authority while providing literally nothing to support your lack of point. If you have rational arguments against suggested change, please show them. But save me the "I think i'm a vet and i think i speak for them all" spiel, it holds no weight. "Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs."
Arvalen Eno	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:22:00 - [40] Originally by: Maya Rkell it's more if you can find any Eve vet who'd agree (outside the lunatic fringe) with it Way to put yourself in position of authority while providing literally nothing to support your lack of point. If you have rational arguments against suggested change, please show them. But save me the "I think i'm a vet and i think i speak for them all" spiel, it holds no weight. "Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs."
EveJunkie	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:28:00 - [41] Two words...Assault Cruisers These babies are what we have wanted from cruisers all along. Firepower and strenght. OK they're not fixing the old cruisers wich really could have done with a little more sustainablity but its a good start. Once the price comes down a bit they'll rock. Any cruiser that can tank torp spammage from a raven and still take the ravens hardened shields down is a winner in my book. A 1 vs 1 Assault cruiser battle seems to result in stalemates most times. :D
EveJunkie	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:28:00 - [42] Two words...Assault Cruisers These babies are what we have wanted from cruisers all along. Firepower and strenght. OK they're not fixing the old cruisers wich really could have done with a little more sustainablity but its a good start. Once the price comes down a bit they'll rock. Any cruiser that can tank torp spammage from a raven and still take the ravens hardened shields down is a winner in my book. A 1 vs 1 Assault cruiser battle seems to result in stalemates most times. :D
BobGhengisKhan	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:36:00 - [43] I've seen Collective do extremely well in cruisers without the dual speed mod setups
BobGhengisKhan	Posted - 2004.10.25 01:36:00 - [44] I've seen Collective do extremely well in cruisers without the dual speed mod setups
Buggeh	Posted - 2004.10.25 03:02:00 - [45] Originally by: EveJunkie Two words...Assault Cruisers These babies are what we have wanted from cruisers all along. Firepower and strenght. OK they're not fixing the old cruisers wich really could have done with a little more sustainablity but its a good start. Once the price comes down a bit they'll rock. Any cruiser that can tank torp spammage from a raven and still take the ravens hardened shields down is a winner in my book. A 1 vs 1 Assault cruiser battle seems to result in stalemates most times. :D Two words... Skill Requirements --- Dutch semi-carebear all-round character with lvl5 bad luck.
Buggeh	Posted - 2004.10.25 03:02:00 - [46] Originally by: EveJunkie Two words...Assault Cruisers These babies are what we have wanted from cruisers all along. Firepower and strenght. OK they're not fixing the old cruisers wich really could have done with a little more sustainablity but its a good start. Once the price comes down a bit they'll rock. Any cruiser that can tank torp spammage from a raven and still take the ravens hardened shields down is a winner in my book. A 1 vs 1 Assault cruiser battle seems to result in stalemates most times. :D Two words... Skill Requirements --- Dutch semi-carebear all-round character with lvl5 bad luck.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.10.25 03:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Arvalen Eno Originally by: Maya Rkell it's more if you can find any Eve vet who'd agree (outside the lunatic fringe) with it Way to put yourself in position of authority while providing literally nothing to support your lack of point. If you have rational arguments against suggested change, please show them. But save me the "I think i'm a vet and i think i speak for them all" spiel, it holds no weight. Okay. Anyone else here support this? (*many BS production speed) Anyone? I don't "think" I'm a vet. I DO know, from previous discussions, that this particular suggested change is VERY unpopular. I'm against ANY change which cannot be justified. I cannot see ANY justification at this stage for altering BS production times. The first likely effect would be to squeeze all non-major production corps out of factory slots.. (you WANT them to be like labslots?) "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.10.25 03:46:00 - [48] Originally by: Arvalen Eno Originally by: Maya Rkell it's more if you can find any Eve vet who'd agree (outside the lunatic fringe) with it Way to put yourself in position of authority while providing literally nothing to support your lack of point. If you have rational arguments against suggested change, please show them. But save me the "I think i'm a vet and i think i speak for them all" spiel, it holds no weight. Okay. Anyone else here support this? (*many BS production speed) Anyone? I don't "think" I'm a vet. I DO know, from previous discussions, that this particular suggested change is VERY unpopular. I'm against ANY change which cannot be justified. I cannot see ANY justification at this stage for altering BS production times. The first likely effect would be to squeeze all non-major production corps out of factory slots.. (you WANT them to be like labslots?) "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Directive	Posted - 2004.10.25 05:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Buggeh Originally by: EveJunkie Two words...Assault Cruisers These babies are what we have wanted from cruisers all along. Firepower and strenght. OK they're not fixing the old cruisers wich really could have done with a little more sustainablity but its a good start. Once the price comes down a bit they'll rock. Any cruiser that can tank torp spammage from a raven and still take the ravens hardened shields down is a winner in my book. A 1 vs 1 Assault cruiser battle seems to result in stalemates most times. :D Two words... Skill Requirements Two words... Tech Two Now think about T2 battleships. Or T3 frigs (in the far far future).
Directive	Posted - 2004.10.25 05:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Buggeh Originally by: EveJunkie Two words...Assault Cruisers These babies are what we have wanted from cruisers all along. Firepower and strenght. OK they're not fixing the old cruisers wich really could have done with a little more sustainablity but its a good start. Once the price comes down a bit they'll rock. Any cruiser that can tank torp spammage from a raven and still take the ravens hardened shields down is a winner in my book. A 1 vs 1 Assault cruiser battle seems to result in stalemates most times. :D Two words... Skill Requirements Two words... Tech Two Now think about T2 battleships. Or T3 frigs (in the far far future).
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2004.10.25 09:26:00 - [51] Originally by: EveJunkie Two words...Assault Cruisers Oh yes, I'm seriously looking forward to being able to fly a Deimos and an Ishtar. Still, the skill requirements are hefty and the price the same. Even if I had the skills, I'm not sure I'd want to take a 120m badly-insurable ship into PvP :). But yeah, assault cruisers are nice. Maybe a small across-the-board boost to some tech1 cruiser stats (speed, grid, etc) would give them some more meaning? Dunno.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2004.10.25 09:26:00 - [52] Originally by: EveJunkie Two words...Assault Cruisers Oh yes, I'm seriously looking forward to being able to fly a Deimos and an Ishtar. Still, the skill requirements are hefty and the price the same. Even if I had the skills, I'm not sure I'd want to take a 120m badly-insurable ship into PvP :). But yeah, assault cruisers are nice. Maybe a small across-the-board boost to some tech1 cruiser stats (speed, grid, etc) would give them some more meaning? Dunno.
Von Schnopp	Posted - 2004.10.25 10:06:00 - [53] This isn't very complicated. Battleships are supposed to be those hard-to-obtain super ships that corps can afford but they're not. The reason anyone can aquire a BS within weeks is simply because they are too cheap or the requirements are to low. This battleship-o-mania could be sorted easily would only CCP restrict the insane distribution of BPC among players. A blueprint is in essence a license that allows the BPO buyer to manufacture and sell his ships designed by the shipyard design bureau that sold that BPO. This concept gets tipped ass over head if every single BPO can be copied and sold by the thousands. Consequences would be increased pricing but I'm sure we would get a development going the right way where frigates and cruisers would become more common in battles whereas the hugely expensive battleships would be reserved for the larger corporations as heavy support ships. I know you'll all hate me for this but I'm confident this will promote PvP even more as fighting won't as expensive as more and more pilots will convert to cruisers and heavy frigates etc. It will also promote those who commit themselves to manufacturin as there'll actually be a profit in it and we'll see less market griefing. takes cover :) "Dying for your corp is just stupid, make those other bastards die for theirs instead"
Von Schnopp	Posted - 2004.10.25 10:06:00 - [54] This isn't very complicated. Battleships are supposed to be those hard-to-obtain super ships that corps can afford but they're not. The reason anyone can aquire a BS within weeks is simply because they are too cheap or the requirements are to low. This battleship-o-mania could be sorted easily would only CCP restrict the insane distribution of BPC among players. A blueprint is in essence a license that allows the BPO buyer to manufacture and sell his ships designed by the shipyard design bureau that sold that BPO. This concept gets tipped ass over head if every single BPO can be copied and sold by the thousands. Consequences would be increased pricing but I'm sure we would get a development going the right way where frigates and cruisers would become more common in battles whereas the hugely expensive battleships would be reserved for the larger corporations as heavy support ships. I know you'll all hate me for this but I'm confident this will promote PvP even more as fighting won't as expensive as more and more pilots will convert to cruisers and heavy frigates etc. It will also promote those who commit themselves to manufacturin as there'll actually be a profit in it and we'll see less market griefing. takes cover :) "Dying for your corp is just stupid, make those other bastards die for theirs instead"
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.10.25 11:24:00 - [55] tech2 ships should not be the solution to the cruiser problem. infact, tech2 is overpowered!! ex. an interceptor which is designed to intercept does more dot then a frigate, cruiser and battleship. is that right for a ship whos job is to tackle? if tech2 cruisers can tank a ravens firepower there is something wrong, no cruiser class should be able to take on a baltteship 1on1. but no battleship should be able to kill a cruiser class in secounds either. "We brake for nobody"
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.10.25 11:24:00 - [56] tech2 ships should not be the solution to the cruiser problem. infact, tech2 is overpowered!! ex. an interceptor which is designed to intercept does more dot then a frigate, cruiser and battleship. is that right for a ship whos job is to tackle? if tech2 cruisers can tank a ravens firepower there is something wrong, no cruiser class should be able to take on a baltteship 1on1. but no battleship should be able to kill a cruiser class in secounds either. "We brake for nobody"
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.10.25 12:05:00 - [57] Originally by: Altai Saker heh, the only cruisers that live atm, are either using 1600mm plates or two 100mn abs. False. And jumping in to scout a fleet of 40+ that's all hostiles and sitting at gate with a lot of inties and blackbirds doesn't count... Yes, I was arrogant and a little stupid ;) Thoraxes that try to use a 1600mm plate setup against me I expect to live no more than 30 seconds, compared to 15 seconds of most other cruisers. Last I combated, the other Thorax forgot to use the armour repairer, but did not forget to shoot at me. Cruiser sized blasters simply outrange frigate sized, and I took only shield damage. Personally, I think that the way to go to fix cruisers is not to make them tanks, it's to make them do more damage. Or possibly, the problem lies within that not all weapons were made worse against smaller targets when most of the others were... That means "rebalance missiles for better speed but worse targeting" or something like it. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.10.25 12:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Altai Saker heh, the only cruisers that live atm, are either using 1600mm plates or two 100mn abs. False. And jumping in to scout a fleet of 40+ that's all hostiles and sitting at gate with a lot of inties and blackbirds doesn't count... Yes, I was arrogant and a little stupid ;) Thoraxes that try to use a 1600mm plate setup against me I expect to live no more than 30 seconds, compared to 15 seconds of most other cruisers. Last I combated, the other Thorax forgot to use the armour repairer, but did not forget to shoot at me. Cruiser sized blasters simply outrange frigate sized, and I took only shield damage. Personally, I think that the way to go to fix cruisers is not to make them tanks, it's to make them do more damage. Or possibly, the problem lies within that not all weapons were made worse against smaller targets when most of the others were... That means "rebalance missiles for better speed but worse targeting" or something like it. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.10.25 12:23:00 - [59] Fix BS guns so they actually have trouble hitting cruisers which move away from their optimal. Like, er, well before they started fiddling. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.10.25 12:23:00 - [60] Fix BS guns so they actually have trouble hitting cruisers which move away from their optimal. Like, er, well before they started fiddling. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"

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