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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.10.24 12:53:00 -
[1]
Ok, let's assume the current Shiva dual-MWD removal goes through (either as-is or in some other form that makes fitting multiple MWDs on a ship impractical).
While I think the change is a justified one, it seems that it's hitting cruisers hardest. Frigates can get adaquate speed with just one MWD or an oversized AB (as long as they are allowed), and battleships, well, should not need to go fast in order to survive....but cruisers have always been the problematic category. Too slow to evade damage, too weak to take it. Some specialized cruisers, Blackbird especially, have seen heavy PvP use but usually a cruiser in PvP is a deathtrap unless it can move at near-frigate speeds. And now it can't.
Any ideas on how to make them more useful in general? Or should we just dismiss them from any PvP role and keep on using frigates (cheap, fast) and bs's (big guns and armor)?
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.10.24 12:53:00 -
[2]
Ok, let's assume the current Shiva dual-MWD removal goes through (either as-is or in some other form that makes fitting multiple MWDs on a ship impractical).
While I think the change is a justified one, it seems that it's hitting cruisers hardest. Frigates can get adaquate speed with just one MWD or an oversized AB (as long as they are allowed), and battleships, well, should not need to go fast in order to survive....but cruisers have always been the problematic category. Too slow to evade damage, too weak to take it. Some specialized cruisers, Blackbird especially, have seen heavy PvP use but usually a cruiser in PvP is a deathtrap unless it can move at near-frigate speeds. And now it can't.
Any ideas on how to make them more useful in general? Or should we just dismiss them from any PvP role and keep on using frigates (cheap, fast) and bs's (big guns and armor)?
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.10.24 14:37:00 -
[3]
only option i see it to make cruisers better is to increase their hp and increase their capacitor so they can tank.
a cruiser with 1600mm plate already show some capabilities to live a lot longer then a cruiser without.
"We brake for nobody"
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.10.24 14:37:00 -
[4]
only option i see it to make cruisers better is to increase their hp and increase their capacitor so they can tank.
a cruiser with 1600mm plate already show some capabilities to live a lot longer then a cruiser without.
"We brake for nobody"
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Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.24 16:30:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Any ideas on how to make them more useful in general?
* small weight reduction
* small shield/armour increase
* increase of battleship production time so it takes ~2 weeks to make one
Cruisers aren't bad on their own. They just don't stand a chance to battleships which is normal... and wouldn't be a problem if the battleships were rare ships like they were in real world. But when everyone and a month old newbie owns a battleship, it leaves cruisers without their standard role -- being the backbone of regular fleet... because this role is taken over by the abundant battleships.
Adjusting production time so one can produce dozen or more cruisers in time it takes to make one battleship, and dozen or more frigates in time it takes to make one cruiser might help to establish more natural fleet setups where cruisers do have their place.
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.24 16:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Any ideas on how to make them more useful in general?
* small weight reduction
* small shield/armour increase
* increase of battleship production time so it takes ~2 weeks to make one
Cruisers aren't bad on their own. They just don't stand a chance to battleships which is normal... and wouldn't be a problem if the battleships were rare ships like they were in real world. But when everyone and a month old newbie owns a battleship, it leaves cruisers without their standard role -- being the backbone of regular fleet... because this role is taken over by the abundant battleships.
Adjusting production time so one can produce dozen or more cruisers in time it takes to make one battleship, and dozen or more frigates in time it takes to make one cruiser might help to establish more natural fleet setups where cruisers do have their place.
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
Caanan
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:19:00 -
[7]
production time would only make battleships more expensive, and they're already really expensive
this is really going to be a problem because the only purpose cruisers server now is
anti frig
anti cruiser
they cant do much more than kill frigs or kill other cruisers. Sure a bunch can kill a bs but if there is more than one bs they will die really fast.
IMO they really need a speed bonus. They get a max speed of around 200ms, which isn't much more than a BS, and when battlecruisers come in they will only be slighly slower. |
Caanan
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:19:00 -
[8]
production time would only make battleships more expensive, and they're already really expensive
this is really going to be a problem because the only purpose cruisers server now is
anti frig
anti cruiser
they cant do much more than kill frigs or kill other cruisers. Sure a bunch can kill a bs but if there is more than one bs they will die really fast.
IMO they really need a speed bonus. They get a max speed of around 200ms, which isn't much more than a BS, and when battlecruisers come in they will only be slighly slower. |
Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Caanan
production time would only make battleships more expensive, and they're already really expensive
They aren't. Or rather, their price isn't factor that's stopping them from being so common.
Since the prices are player controlled to large degree, they cannot be used to control amount of battleships effectively.. which leaves the production time as possible factor to adjust.
Quote:
this is really going to be a problem because the only purpose cruisers server now is
anti frig
anti cruiser
they cant do much more than kill frigs or kill other cruisers. Sure a bunch can kill a bs but if there is more than one bs they will die really fast.
My point exactly. The cruisers are considered mostly useless because they "only" can kill frigates, cruisers and occasional rare battleship. Which doesn't match current fleet setups with battleships being at least every second ship in the fleet.
If the fleets were instead composed mostly of frigates, cruisers and occasional battleships for the extra punch, it'd make the cruisers fit right in as they could fight effectively most of the threats.
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Caanan
production time would only make battleships more expensive, and they're already really expensive
They aren't. Or rather, their price isn't factor that's stopping them from being so common.
Since the prices are player controlled to large degree, they cannot be used to control amount of battleships effectively.. which leaves the production time as possible factor to adjust.
Quote:
this is really going to be a problem because the only purpose cruisers server now is
anti frig
anti cruiser
they cant do much more than kill frigs or kill other cruisers. Sure a bunch can kill a bs but if there is more than one bs they will die really fast.
My point exactly. The cruisers are considered mostly useless because they "only" can kill frigates, cruisers and occasional rare battleship. Which doesn't match current fleet setups with battleships being at least every second ship in the fleet.
If the fleets were instead composed mostly of frigates, cruisers and occasional battleships for the extra punch, it'd make the cruisers fit right in as they could fight effectively most of the threats.
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:39:00 -
[11]
Ideas? Yep, don't fly them.
This is CCP's IDEA of enhancing combat diversity.
And Arvalen? Nice change, IF we were still in beta. We're not.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:39:00 -
[12]
Ideas? Yep, don't fly them.
This is CCP's IDEA of enhancing combat diversity.
And Arvalen? Nice change, IF we were still in beta. We're not.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:41:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Arvalen Eno on 24/10/2004 17:48:38
Originally by: Maya Rkell
And Arvalen? Nice change, IF we were still in beta. We're not.
Since everything else gets adjusted/boosted/nerfed in the game on regular basis, "we're not in beta anymore" is moot point. You could say the same to any other change that's being introduced and it would mean just as little.
(no one complained when the production times for missiles were effectively shortened 10 times at certain point long since the release, for example...)
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.24 17:41:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Arvalen Eno on 24/10/2004 17:48:38
Originally by: Maya Rkell
And Arvalen? Nice change, IF we were still in beta. We're not.
Since everything else gets adjusted/boosted/nerfed in the game on regular basis, "we're not in beta anymore" is moot point. You could say the same to any other change that's being introduced and it would mean just as little.
(no one complained when the production times for missiles were effectively shortened 10 times at certain point long since the release, for example...)
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.10.24 19:02:00 -
[15]
I never knew people used Dual MWDs on cruisers... 
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.10.24 19:02:00 -
[16]
I never knew people used Dual MWDs on cruisers...
................. |
slothe
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Posted - 2004.10.24 20:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cruz
I never knew people used Dual MWDs on cruisers...
yeah its really common now, a particular favourite tactic of DIE and others.
it still surprises me to see a cruiser coming at you about 4000 m/s
even better is dual mwd scorps and ravens
Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com
or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public"
http://www.khainestar.com/eve |
slothe
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Posted - 2004.10.24 20:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cruz
I never knew people used Dual MWDs on cruisers...
yeah its really common now, a particular favourite tactic of DIE and others.
it still surprises me to see a cruiser coming at you about 4000 m/s
even better is dual mwd scorps and ravens
Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com
or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public"
http://www.khainestar.com/eve |
Morikai Acler
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Posted - 2004.10.24 20:38:00 -
[19]
Dual Mwd ships die fast when you hit them with 2 heavy nos's. Same for hitting frigs with 2 medium Nos's. Energy neutralizers would be better for this task if they didnt cost the same amount as they neutralized to use. Dual mic ravens are devastating though, and interestingly enough I can see that as being one of the proper roles for a raven.
I've come to the conclusion with the shiva ships coming in, and the mwd changes that they are going to need to implement mid class AB's and MWD's. BC's have too much PG to not do so, since they can easily fit a 100mn ab and 10mn mwd or 2 100mn ABs and still have heavy offensive power. Destroyers have nowhere near enough PG to run 10mn MWDs and get no use out of 1mn MWDs, since their mass is the same as a cruiser.
Then again it also comes down to the fact that they activated speed boost module system needs to be redone, right along with redoing how missiles work.
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Morikai Acler
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Posted - 2004.10.24 20:38:00 -
[20]
Dual Mwd ships die fast when you hit them with 2 heavy nos's. Same for hitting frigs with 2 medium Nos's. Energy neutralizers would be better for this task if they didnt cost the same amount as they neutralized to use. Dual mic ravens are devastating though, and interestingly enough I can see that as being one of the proper roles for a raven.
I've come to the conclusion with the shiva ships coming in, and the mwd changes that they are going to need to implement mid class AB's and MWD's. BC's have too much PG to not do so, since they can easily fit a 100mn ab and 10mn mwd or 2 100mn ABs and still have heavy offensive power. Destroyers have nowhere near enough PG to run 10mn MWDs and get no use out of 1mn MWDs, since their mass is the same as a cruiser.
Then again it also comes down to the fact that they activated speed boost module system needs to be redone, right along with redoing how missiles work.
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Daerkannon Shimmerscale
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:24:00 -
[21]
Changing production time won't really help much at this point as factory slots are cheap and plentiful. Producers will simply rent more of them and make production alts to take up the slack.
Cruisers do need some tweaking though. A bit more speed and cap couldn't hurt them.
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Daerkannon Shimmerscale
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:24:00 -
[22]
Changing production time won't really help much at this point as factory slots are cheap and plentiful. Producers will simply rent more of them and make production alts to take up the slack.
Cruisers do need some tweaking though. A bit more speed and cap couldn't hurt them.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:28:00 -
[23]
You're spinning your wheels, no-one's listening.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:28:00 -
[24]
You're spinning your wheels, no-one's listening.
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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:35:00 -
[25]
heh, the only cruisers that live atm, are either using 1600mm plates or two 100mn abs.
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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:35:00 -
[26]
heh, the only cruisers that live atm, are either using 1600mm plates or two 100mn abs.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:50:00 -
[27]
..and I'd question the lifetime of the ones using 1600mm.
Oh, don't forget EW BB's. Still fairly viable..
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.10.24 23:50:00 -
[28]
..and I'd question the lifetime of the ones using 1600mm.
Oh, don't forget EW BB's. Still fairly viable..
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.10.25 00:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Arvalen Eno
Since everything else gets adjusted/boosted/nerfed in the game on regular basis, "we're not in beta anymore" is moot point.
Increasing production time by EIGHTY-FOUR times is not an adjustment. That's like calling Ground Zero at Hiroshima a "warm day".
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.10.25 00:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Arvalen Eno
Since everything else gets adjusted/boosted/nerfed in the game on regular basis, "we're not in beta anymore" is moot point.
Increasing production time by EIGHTY-FOUR times is not an adjustment. That's like calling Ground Zero at Hiroshima a "warm day".
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