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Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:12:00 -
[1]
I haven't gotten any trash men in space to salvage my missions (I only do level 1s, heh) but I don't understand why stealing the loot gives kill rights but stealing the wreck doesn't.
CCP, is there a reason for this or is it just something that wasn't apparent last patch?
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Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:19:00 -
[2]
Not another one please.
Go look at any one of the over 9,000+ threads created regarding this exact topic please, and note the GM responses: The wrecks belong to anyone who can get to them first, hence the term "salvage."
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:27:00 -
[3]
Wrong forum, old topic, nothing new… Impressive.
As for the answer, per CCP Prism X: Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK?
It's not.
It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
In other words: they can't steal something that isn't yours. Salvage isn't yours — in fact, it doesn't even exist — before you create it by running a salvager on a wreck, at which point your salvage appears in your cargo hold. If someone steals your salvage, you can shoot them because you will either have theft aggression rights on them or killrights.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:41:00 -
[4]
The bigger question is when are ppl going to stop whining because their salvage is being stolen...
Perhaps you could do something like, i dont know
SALVAGE FASTER
SHUT THE HELL UP AND SALVAGE BEFORE PPL STEAL IT
Your stuff iz mine through actions |
PhoenixBomb
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:50:00 -
[5]
Better question: why not let people take loot from wrecks without consequence, as well?
/dons flame shield and mace of trolling
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:50:00 -
[6]
cry more noob
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:00:00 -
[7]
Get to crowded mission hub. Park your alt in "mission running ship" to recon 3/3. Watch directional scanner for covops wreck /or not/.
It doesnt help you against ninja salvagers, but it can be fun.
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Builder Robert
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:03:00 -
[8]
The wreck isn't yours anyway.
It belongs to the pirate who was flying it before you murdererered them.
You "carebear missioners" disgust me with your double standards.
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Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:06:00 -
[9]
I can almost taste the butthurt from you trash men.
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PhoenixBomb
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
I can almost taste the butthurt from you trash men.
Quit trolling. You've gotten more responses than this topic is worth. Answers are listed above, dead horse has been beaten.
Lock this ****.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:12:00 -
[11]
You have already been paid through loot and bounty. The wreck itself has no value thus no owner.
If anything the wreck belongs to Concord/DED or whomever pays out the bounties on rats.
Same as insurance company taking ownership of a totalled car after insurance is paid but anything inside the wrecked car belongs to you (like your favourite CD or similar).
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Pater Peccavi
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:12:00 -
[12]
I opened a mission the other day that had veldspar asteroids in them. I ran the mission, then came back in my mining ship. A ninja miner scanned me down and started stealing my roids, but I didn't get aggression against them!!! WTF CCP!!!!!1111 If I hadn't taken that mission, those asteroids wouldn't exist. If I hadn't shot the rats, that noobs ship would've been toast! Those asteroids belong to me, and ninja mining needs to cause aggression against the ninja miner!!!!!111111oneoneone
_________
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
I can almost taste the butthurt from you trash men.
Oh, sorry. I assumed you were a mission runner, not a salvager.
But yes, you're right. Nothing butthurts mission runners more than being told (by CCP even) that they have to earn their salvage on (somewhat) equal terms to everyone else (I say somewhat, of course, since the MRs have a huge advantage). For some reason, they have this weird sense of entitlement that makes them expect to just be handed stuff for no reason.
Silly, isn't it? 
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Novantco
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:37:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Novantco on 28/09/2009 18:37:25
Baww
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Ghengis Tia
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:46:00 -
[15]
Google: Eve-Ninja Salvager. You will get the full, bloated, redundant, and boring epic argument about this situation.
(In this reply, I have made an exception to my pledge to never read/post in any thread about other people salvaging other people's wrecks. The vehemence generated by, and the subsequent entrenched positions on both sides, make it a real waste of time and brainpower.)
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:55:00 -
[16]
Moved to General Discussion.
Zymurgist
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact us |
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Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.09.28 18:59:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 28/09/2009 18:59:40
Originally by: Tippia
Oh, sorry. I assumed you were a mission runner, not a salvager.
I do run missions, and I haven't salvaged anything in the last 3 months. I was simply asking why it's allowed, and I got an answer so thanks.
What I also got was a bunch of garbage collectors that apparently get angry at people who even mention that profession. So, new question: why do trash men get so angry over this trivial topic?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.28 19:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
So, new question: why do trash men get so angry over this trivial topic?
Because it's been brought up roughly a bazillion times and the answer is trivially easy to find.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Dario Wall
Caldari
Corvus Industries
Empire of Dirt
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Posted - 2009.09.28 19:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Pater Peccavi
I opened a mission the other day that had veldspar asteroids in them. I ran the mission, then came back in my mining ship. A ninja miner scanned me down and started stealing my roids, but I didn't get aggression against them!!! WTF CCP!!!!!1111 If I hadn't taken that mission, those asteroids wouldn't exist. If I hadn't shot the rats, that noobs ship would've been toast! Those asteroids belong to me, and ninja mining needs to cause aggression against the ninja miner!!!!!111111oneoneone
You leave my ninja mining alone! 
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Moved to General Discussion.
If this isn't adding fuel to the fire Zymmur, I don't know what is.
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OwlManAtt
Gallente
Yasashii Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:28:00 -
[21]
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
---
Owl |
Salliene
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:31:00 -
[22]
The bad thing about ninja salvaging is that it gets pretty boring when the MR just sits there and lets you take everything, even the loot.
So I took the probe launcher off of my covops and put it on my Dominix. Now I just help myself to all the bounties I can snag, it really is faster money wise and it helps my security status. If the MR leaves and there is a huge field of Angel wrecks there, I can just come and get that too. And usually the loot.
To be honest I'd rather be exploring for plexes, but since Apocrypha 9/10 sites you find just turn out to be wormholes, which means big time investment. Since I only have 2 hours at best per night to play, I have to do other peoples missions.
It's all the fault of CCP really.
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Rilwar
BlackStar Industrial
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:44:00 -
[23]
Another one of these?
Ohmai.
-------------------------------------------------
Mitnal was here. |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Salliene
To be honest I'd rather be exploring for plexes, but since Apocrypha 9/10 sites you find just turn out to be wormholes, which means big time investment. Since I only have 2 hours at best per night to play, I have to do other peoples missions.
It's all the fault of CCP really.
I'm not sure what's worse. Carebear mission running, or pretending you're a pirate and running a carebear's mission for them.
You're not stealing bounties, you're helping someone make LP faster. 
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Armoured C
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:56:00 -
[25]
concord like to see you whine
please continue
Armoured C
forum extraordinaire
#72 top poster
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Decarus
Amarr
The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp
Twilight Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:14:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Decarus on 28/09/2009 21:15:25
Edited by: Decarus on 28/09/2009 21:14:09
Originally by: Seriously Bored
I'm not sure what's worse. Carebear mission running, or pretending you're a pirate and running a carebear's mission for them.
You're not stealing bounties, you're helping someone make LP faster.
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but isn't TEARS one of the more public Ninja Salvager corp in EVE and as such: why should TEARS members care if they are helping a carebear make LPs, or not, as long as they get their green?
You'd actually go out of your way and loose ISK generation just to make them carebears cry.. wouldn't you? And then you'd go to the forums and complain how hard you hardcore PvPers have it as EVE PvP is an ISK sink?
It doesn't matter which side of the fence you're on if you're an elitist jerk.. you're still a jerk.
Might as well just admit it like me.
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Akiba Penrose
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
So, new question: why do trash men get so angry over this trivial topic?
I dont think they get so upset because they are trash men.
I think they are regular forum trolls that have discovered that they can almost freely insult and bash anyone that brings up a game mechanic/balance topic, without getting banned.
Guess its a intended feature from CCP.
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Neon Delight
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:35:00 -
[28]
Dear Noob:
Please read the Knowledgebase and Dev Blogs for enlightenment on various topics so that you might actually have a hope of making an intelligent and informed post someday.
 |
Domoso
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:35:00 -
[29]
Here's another instance where CCP got it wrong. And yet so many seem to think CCP can do no wrong. The loot and the salvage should have belonged to the missioner. And then the missioner should have had the ability to "sell" the salvage and/or rights to someone interested in such a profession. Ninjaing is not a mini-profession. It's the next most profitable avenue for a player that doesn't have the skills or money to get into industry. No, actually, it's more profitable than missioning considering there is little risk of losing one's ship.
It would have provided more of what CCP supposedly much desires, player interaction.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:36:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 28/09/2009 21:45:58
Originally by: Decarus
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but isn't TEARS one of the more public Ninja Salvager corp in EVE and as such: why should TEARS members care if they are helping a carebear make LPs, or not, as long as they get their green?
Maybe I took the alliance acronym too literally.
But you're right, if TEARS are making their isk, there's no complaint. It's just that you're helping the mission runner, not making them cry, if your actions cause them to complete the mission faster...
But if the mission runner doesn't realize that, I guess you accomplished your goal anyway.
Quote:
It doesn't matter which side of the fence you're on if you're an elitist jerk.. you're still a jerk.
Might as well just admit it like me.
Awesome. You got me there I guess.
EDIT:
I should clarify all this by saying I run plenty of missions myself (though I'm starting to hate it), and my PVP record is hilariously awful (though I love it), but I still fall on the side that says wrecks should stay exactly as they are.
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Neon Delight
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Domoso
Here's another instance where CCP got it wrong. And yet so many seem to think CCP can do no wrong. The loot and the salvage should have belonged to the missioner. And then the missioner should have had the ability to "sell" the salvage and/or rights to someone interested in such a profession. Ninjaing is not a mini-profession. It's the next most profitable avenue for a player that doesn't have the skills or money to get into industry. No, actually, it's more profitable than missioning considering there is little risk of losing one's ship.
It would have provided more of what CCP supposedly much desires, player interaction.
IIRC, I believe theres some sort of menu choice coming up in Dominion that let's mission/wreck owners put their wrecks up for "free for all" looting. I doubt it will change the status and mechanics of salvage (no need) but it should encourage more player interaction.
Or maybe I dreamed it, and its wishful thinking until the patch notes appear.
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Decarus
Amarr
The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp
Twilight Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Domoso
drivel
Mission in High-Sec -> Play by high-sec rules.
Mission in Low-Sec -> Play by low-sec rules.
Choose your battleground, prepare yourself for the fight (like fitting a salvager you poor little helpless unspoiled lotus pedal) and live with the consequences.
I don't expect you to even understand what I just said.. but I like the sound of flawless typing. 
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Decarus
...lotus pedal....flawless typing
Pedal
Petal
Flawless??? Pfffft. 
--------------------------------------------
Quote:
EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
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Decarus
Amarr
The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp
Twilight Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
Originally by: Decarus
...sound...
Pedal
Petal
Flawless??? Pfffft.
Seriously.. you still read out loud to yourself?
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:02:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Decarus
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
Originally by: Decarus
...sound...
Pedal
Petal
Flawless??? Pfffft.
Seriously.. you still read out loud to yourself?
I am not sure what your point is with that statement to be honest... All I did was point out that you were far from flawless in your previous post. Or in your world do flowers have "a lever that is operated with the foot" attached to them?
--------------------------------------------
Quote:
EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:14:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Domoso
Here's another instance where CCP got it wrong.
In what way?
Quote:
The loot and the salvage should have belonged to the missioner.
Why?
Quote:
Ninjaing is not a mini-profession. It's the next most profitable avenue for a player that doesn't have the skills or money to get into industry.
So it's a full-on profession then?
Quote:
No, actually, it's more profitable than missioning considering there is little risk of losing one's ship.
Kind of like running missions, then, so again: a full-on profession.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Decarus
Amarr
The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp
Twilight Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:26:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
I am not sure what your point is with that statement to be honest... All I did was point out that you were far from flawless in your previous post. Or in your world do flowers have "a lever that is operated with the foot" attached to them?
*sigh*
I like the sound of typing. Not what I type.
Ain't that the meaning of typing anyways? I ask as an utterly ignorant non-native...
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Doomed Predator
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:34:00 -
[38]
Why don't the police arrest hobos taking stuff from my garbage bins?! It's my garbage after all CCP please fix!! oh wait....
The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
kyoukoku
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:40:00 -
[39]
<looks around>
nope no-one has said it yet.......
BECAUSE OF FALCON!!!!!
Now kindly GTFO!  The door is  way, don't let it hit you too hard on the way out.
The first rule of local is you don't talk in local |
Stupid McStupidson
Gallente
Hoek Lyne and Sinker
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Posted - 2009.09.29 01:29:00 -
[40]
Worst troll ever. |
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gnarff
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Posted - 2009.09.29 09:01:00 -
[41]
So.. with seconds of his life to spare, the pilot of the about to be blown to pieces ship decides to put a few items in a can and marks them for the attention of the guy who is about to blow up his ship, and flags concord to let them know this, but anything else that is left is just space junk for anyone to collect... riight.. that makes sense...
if the salvage is free for all, so should the loot, where's the logical distinction.?
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.29 09:30:00 -
[42]
Holy crap, HI DECARUS.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.29 09:34:00 -
[43]
Originally by: gnarff
if the salvage is free for all, so should the loot, where's the logical distinction.?
Loot is found, salvage is made.
If you find the rules about this too confusing, illogical or distasteful, then you'll be pleased to know that in the large majority of the map they dont apply.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.09.29 09:38:00 -
[44]
Originally by: gnarff
So.. with seconds of his life to spare, the pilot of the about to be blown to pieces ship decides to put a few items in a can and marks them for the attention of the guy who is about to blow up his ship, and flags concord to let them know this, but anything else that is left is just space junk for anyone to collect... riight.. that makes sense...
if the salvage is free for all, so should the loot, where's the logical distinction.?
Yes, both should be free of flagging or get you flagged to the actual owner, not the mass murdering killer.
The distinction in this case is, and let's keep in mind it is a gameplay logic, that salvage is in a way like ore or gas. It isn't just floating in space ready for pickup. Unlike loot, wrecks require refining by the player before you get anything useful out of it and the first person to do it deserves the rewards. When salvage first comes to existance it is already in someones cargohold and clearly their property. That is the mechanic for claiming them for yourself, but some people think, that murdering someone should be the mechanic for claiming ownership instead of actual control/making of the salvage.
They sometimes argue that their guns made the wrecks and so the salvage, but that is just nonsense, since that is just an arbitrary point in the history of the material/ship. It might as well be the guy who build the ship from minerals, since without him there wouldn't be a ship to shoot at. And if you go by the one who had the most recent effet on the ship, you might as well reward the salvage to the actual salvager, since his contribution is the last thing required before salvage comes to existance.
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Kaila Fate
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Posted - 2009.09.29 10:14:00 -
[45]
As a mission runner, all I have to say is:
All your salvage are belong to us.
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Tarantoga
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Posted - 2009.09.29 10:49:00 -
[46]
I¦m a mission runner for years and I think it¦s ok how it is.
If the ninja salvager jumps into a deadspace you are fighting in, there are good chances that you can simply trigger the next wave. It¦s hilarious to watch him getting blown up by some rats. If he cleans up after you I think its a fair race between you and him.
But to get rid of the endless discussions: How about putting a mechanism into the game that allows the mission runner to decide if he wants to claim all wrecks for him or keep them open to everyone. But if you want to have everything for you, you have to clean the site completely. All the small wrecks, all of the cargo containers dropped by turrets that contain only crappy ammo, all of this stuff that isn¦t really worth salvaging/collecting because it slows down your cashflow.
If you decide to claim everything and leave some wrecks behind, cosmos charges you with a fee of 1-10 million for cleaning up your mess.
Backstory: To ensure safety in highsec, Concord tracks every orbital body floating around in space, so you don¦t accidentally crash into a wreck while warping around. Usually, they clean up after mission runners and refund this work with all the loot/salvage they find. If you decide to claim all of the wrecks during a mission and they have to clean up after you, they charge you for the work. When doing so, they keep the stuff anyway (Isn¦t bureaucracy great?)
This way, if you really need every 0.01 ISK that drops during a mission, you could safely collect all the stuff without being buggered by ninja salvagers. If you just pick the best parts, you have to live with ninja salvagers or you pay so much fee that it becomes unprofitable.
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Ekeim
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Posted - 2009.09.29 11:23:00 -
[47]
It's not logical and it's not consistent, but it works and CCP reps have said it's as they intended.
What I don't understand why in threads like this people argue that it is consistent and logical.
Wrecks can only be tractored by the people who made them. Why? It's supposed to be ownerless space junk.
If a person not tagged to a wreck goes up and shoots it, concord swoops in and pops them. Again - why?
The loot inside the wreck is tagged as belonging to the person responsible for its creation.
So, we've got a container object that exists solely because you made it with stuff that does belong to you inside that is defended against people harming or moving it.... but it doesn't belong to you.
To respond to the car analogy, sure an insurance company might not mind me taking cds out of the car they totaled but they might have something to say if i tried taking the engine.
Also mentioned is the fact that missions don't need additional income streams. That may be true, but wrecks are hardly only generated in missions. Most of the value of fighting in sleeper combat sites come from the salvage. If it were only up to the tag type items they drop, it would barely if at all be worth it monetarily.
To conclude and ward off flames, I am not against things how they are now. I do not complain about 'ninja' salvagers, nor am I arguing with the devs on their intentions. What I do disagree with though are statements that the mechanics are consistent and make sense. They do not. They're just the way they are because that's how the devs want them - not because of 'logic'.
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Marguerite Antiki
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Posted - 2009.09.29 11:34:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ekeim
Wrecks can only be tractored by the people who made them. Why? It's supposed to be ownerless space junk.
Why do people seem to only think about themselves. OK lets think for a bit, you know, like further than outside the box of your little room, if I could tractor SOME ONE ELSES wrecks, what could I do, well here are some of the following that I could think of;
- Find a mission runner and once he pops the mission reward, tractor the wreck, along with the other wrecks that are paying well and drag them away. 8 tractors on a Destroyer will make for a fun time watching a battleship try and catch it for its rewards.
- Or better yet, there is a some mission specific item (I know its normally in cargo cans) but if you could tractor it, you can hold the mission runner and extort them as you drag their mission item all round the system while they cry over how the timer is going to go off / expire and they cant do anything thus failing part of hte mission.
Hence I think they cant be moved may, just may be a design impliment by CCP so that if you need something important for the mission or important to yourself, No one else can drag it off away from unless they take it out the wreck / can and then you can pop their sorry ass.
Hows that for some thought why its set like that ? ?
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Ekeim
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Posted - 2009.09.29 11:42:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Marguerite Antiki
Originally by: Ekeim
Wrecks can only be tractored by the people who made them. Why? It's supposed to be ownerless space junk.
Why do people seem to only think about themselves. OK lets think for a bit, you know, like further than outside the box of your little room, if I could tractor SOME ONE ELSES wrecks, what could I do, well here are some of the following that I could think of;
- Find a mission runner and once he pops the mission reward, tractor the wreck, along with the other wrecks that are paying well and drag them away. 8 tractors on a Destroyer will make for a fun time watching a battleship try and catch it for its rewards.
- Or better yet, there is a some mission specific item (I know its normally in cargo cans) but if you could tractor it, you can hold the mission runner and extort them as you drag their mission item all round the system while they cry over how the timer is going to go off / expire and they cant do anything thus failing part of hte mission.
Hence I think they cant be moved may, just may be a design impliment by CCP so that if you need something important for the mission or important to yourself, No one else can drag it off away from unless they take it out the wreck / can and then you can pop their sorry ass.
Hows that for some thought why its set like that ? ?
That actually fits very well with everything I said in my post. It's a container the missioner made, with something belonging to them inside, that is protected from being dragged around or destroyed by anyone but the missioner - but it doesn't belong to them. That doesn't make any sense. Like I said in my post - it's not consistent nor is it logical, but it is how the devs want it to be.
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gnarff
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Posted - 2009.09.29 13:23:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: gnarff
if the salvage is free for all, so should the loot, where's the logical distinction.?
Loot is found, salvage is made.
If you find the rules about this too confusing, illogical or distasteful, then you'll be pleased to know that in the large majority of the map they dont apply.
Um, while I find it neither confusing or distasteful.. you are telling me I can find loot without blowing up stuffs.. aww, bless...
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.29 17:09:00 -
[51]
I have to agree with Ekeim on this.
To argue that wrecks don't belong to the person who made them is neither logical nor consistent.
Those wrecks exist by virtue of the actons of the mission runner They are not randomly generated in space they exist becaus ethe misison runner blew up a ship. IF they hadn't blown up said ship then instead of being wrecks they'd be ships with guns that could fight back.
If the justification was really that salvaging should be a viable profession then wrecks should come into existence through some mechanism other than from players blowing ships up.
It would be more reasonable and consistent if say NPC Pirate factions and NPC navies were duking it out and then the resulting wrecks were available for salvagers to salvage.
The only single justification to the current mechanims seems to be that the EVE devs like to encourage greifing playstyles for what ungodly reason I cannot fathom.
A more reasonable mechanism would be to make salvaging an agressive act on par with flipping a can or stealing loot from siad wreck. Then the salvagers would be taking some real risk for their gain. If they wanted to Ninja-salvage they'd have to come in with a ship that could beat the mission runner.
Understand I don't mind the idea of EVE being a cold hard universe I just think that the mission runners should have the tools to defend their income flow.
Flagging ninja-salvaging as an agreesive act would create yet one more avenue for PVP which everyone claims is a good thing.
Now couple that sort of mechanism with the proposed mechanism to flag wrecks as free for all (or even better make salvage rights transferable) and you'd have a reasonable rational mechanism that would create more oportunities for pew pew action as well as facilitate the existance of Salvaging as an actual profession rather than officially sanctioned griefing.
While we're at it lets get kill rights tranferable so bounty hunting would be a viable profession.
As it is
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.29 18:16:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Tippia on 29/09/2009 18:17:58
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Those wrecks exist by virtue of the actons of the mission runner They are not randomly generated in space they exist becaus ethe misison runner blew up a ship.
Likewise, the salvage only exists by virtue of someone activating a salvager on a wreck. Shoot a (NPC) ship → loot is yours because you made it exist; salvage a wreck → salvage is yours because you made it exist.
Quote:
If the justification was really that salvaging should be a viable profession then wrecks should come into existence through some mechanism other than from players blowing ships up.
Ehm. What? Why? That's like saying that manufacturing isn't a viable profession because it relies on players blowing asteroids up… 
Quote:
The only single justification to the current mechanims seems to be that the EVE devs like to encourage greifing playstyles for what ungodly reason I cannot fathom.
The reason you cannot fathom it is because you dislike competition. CCP, on the other hand, love it. What you (incorrectly) see as "griefing" is simply that: competition — the driving factor that makes EVE work. The devs encourage competition because it's essential to making the game universe function. It's a PvP game, through and through.
Quote:
Then the salvagers would be taking some real risk for their gain.
Why should they have to? Also, define "real risk."
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Understand I don't mind the idea of EVE being a cold hard universe I just think that the mission runners should have the tools to defend their income flow.
They do. Tons of them. They just adamantly refuse to use them.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.29 19:05:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 29/09/2009 18:17:58
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Those wrecks exist by virtue of the actons of the mission runner They are not randomly generated in space they exist becaus ethe misison runner blew up a ship.
Likewise, the salvage only exists by virtue of someone activating a salvager on a wreck. Shoot a (NPC) ship → loot is yours because you made it exist; salvage a wreck → salvage is yours because you made it exist.
Your analogy falls apart because unless the wreck exists you can not activate your salvager.
As I said if salvageble wrecks came into existence through some mechanism other than players shooting ships then your argument might actually have some validity but as things stand now your argument is crap.
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If the justification was really that salvaging should be a viable profession then wrecks should come into existence through some mechanism other than from players blowing ships up.
Ehm. What? Why? That's like saying that manufacturing isn't a viable profession because it relies on players blowing asteroids upà
Asteroids are generated via other mechanism than players that's why it's a valid profession. Because a game mechanism exists to create the base material.
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The only single justification to the current mechanims seems to be that the EVE devs like to encourage greifing playstyles for what ungodly reason I cannot fathom.
The reason you cannot fathom it is because you dislike competition. CCP, on the other hand, love it. What you (incorrectly) see as "griefing" is simply that: competition ù the driving factor that makes EVE work. The devs encourage competition because it's essential to making the game universe function. It's a PvP game, through and through.
Ninja-salvaging isn't competition, and it's not PVP, If ninja-salvaging caused an aggression flag then it would be PVP as it stand now it's just a way of profiting off of other peoples efforts. Make the salvager valid targets that would be competition. What exists now is just legitimized 0 risk theft.
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Then the salvagers would be taking some real risk for their gain.
Why should they have to? Also, define "real risk."
Quote:
Understand I don't mind the idea of EVE being a cold hard universe I just think that the mission runners should have the tools to defend their income flow.
They do. Tons of them. They just adamantly refuse to use them.
Why do you object to putting risk into what is essentially a risk free occupation? I thought you loved competition? Let it become a competition. If the salvagers want to take the spoils of the mission runners efforts then come and fight for it.
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Jack Coutu
Gallente
The Happy Spacemen
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Posted - 2009.09.29 19:14:00 -
[54]
stop whining, stop posting in this thread. It's pointless and no one cares about your mission salvage. NO ONE.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.09.29 19:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: gnarff
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: gnarff
if the salvage is free for all, so should the loot, where's the logical distinction.?
Loot is found, salvage is made.
If you find the rules about this too confusing, illogical or distasteful, then you'll be pleased to know that in the large majority of the map they dont apply.
Um, while I find it neither confusing or distasteful.. you are telling me I can find loot without blowing up stuffs.. aww, bless...
Sure you can, you find stuff people leave behind, or stuff that has been blown up by someone else. That is still classed as a discovery, and thus, found.
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Avoida
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Posted - 2009.09.29 19:28:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jack Coutu
stop whining, stop posting in this thread. It's pointless and no one cares about your mission salvage. NO ONE.
Except the person running the mission.
What I find distressing about this whole situation is how quickly these salvage seekers can locate missions due to broken mechanics which clearly favors one type of mission runner over another. The record so far is 2 minutes after arriving on grid to a mission before the first salvage seeker shows up. I hadn't even killed the first NPC yet..but what I did do was to send out 1 drone. We all know that upon entering a deadspace, the signature of your ship is reduced significantly so that probing becomes more difficult. Drones, however, are not subject to that effect and thus stand out like a beacon for a probe.
Utilizing alts, I've attempted to scan down myself in deadspaces when first using drones and when not using drones. The difference in difficulty is quite pronounced. Even when I know the exact location ahead of time, exact distances from nearby celestials etc..using drones will increase the probability of a salvage seekers showing up. Drone users are thus far more likely to have salvage seekers show up in their missions than non-drone users. It's far more rare to see someone show up if you never use drones.
But hey..they show up and start going for the wrecks? Shoot the wrecks and watch them get ****ed because you are blowing up their salvage. 
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.29 19:32:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Your analogy falls apart because unless the wreck exists you can not activate your salvager.
It holds up because it's a question of "who does the work". If you can't be bothered with working for your salvage, why should you get it?
Quote:
Asteroids are generated via other mechanism than players that's why it's a valid profession. Because a game mechanism exists to create the base material.
And you missed the point: there is no mechanism to create the minerals needed to manufacture other than players going out and creating ore, and then squeezing the construction-juice out of it. Thus, by your logic, manufacturing isn't a profession since it relies on a separate player activity.
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Ninja-salvaging isn't competition, and it's not PVP
How is it not competition? If you salvages the wreck first, you win. If he salvages the wreck first, he wins. It's the classic competition that is "the race." Also, how is it not PvP? Are ninja salvagers bots? Or perhaps you're one… You (a player) are competing for resources with (versus) another player. PvP by very definition.
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Make the salvager valid targets that would be competition.
Again — the competition is already there: you need to beat him to the punch.
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Why do you object to putting risk into what is essentially a risk free occupation?
I don't. You're just refusing to define "risk." Why do you object to having to do any work to earn the salvage?
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I thought you loved competition? Let it become a competition.
It already is. If you want the salvage, you need to beat him.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Krem daBrut
Marquie-X Corp
Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.29 20:07:00 -
[58]
CCP STOLEN MY SALVAGE !!!
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.29 20:28:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tippia
It holds up because it's a question of "who does the work". If you can't be bothered with working for your salvage, why should you get it?
What the hell are you talking about? The mission runner is doing the work by creating the wrecks. Your showing up before they get a chance to get a salvager on it isn't work it's theft of their efforts. You have done anything to create that oportunity for profit other than show up. You aren't working you're stealing. Now stealing is a valid profession in EVE and that's fine but a salvage theif should face the same risks as an ore theif.
Quote:
And you missed the point: there is no mechanism to create the minerals needed to manufacture other than players going out and creating ore, and then squeezing the construction-juice out of it. Thus, by your logic, manufacturing isn't a profession since it relies on a separate player activity.
The ore isn't created out of thin air it's harvested out of asteroids then that ore is processed into the minerals that the industrialists use. Those industrialist have to either purchase those raw materials or go mine or and process it themselves. That's work. Just like the mission runner has to go out and kill ships to generate wrecks that can be salvaged, Once again that's work. What the Ninja Salvager does is the same things as a can flipper does which is to steal materials created through the efforts of another player. As such they should face the same consequences by being flagged as valid targets for agression by the agreived party. Then you can actually ****ing work for your salvage by beating the mission runner in a fight. The missioner would have the opion of either trying to kick your ass or deciding it's not worth the effort and letting you go about your business.
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How is it not competition? If you salvages the wreck first, you win. If he salvages the wreck first, he wins. It's the classic competition that is "the race." Also, how is it not PvP? Are ninja salvagers bots? Or perhaps you're oneà You (a player) are competing for resources with (versus) another player. PvP by very definition.
Oh yeah cause it's a real competition between a mission runner equiped with mostly weapons compared to the Ninja-salvager who doesn't have to equip for combat since they are 99% safe from any risk. Talk about a carebear ninja-salvaging is the ultimate carebear profession you don't even have to own a ship with a gun to be able to practice it.
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Again ù the competition is already there: you need to beat him to the punch.
I'd rather punch them in the face with a blaster it would be more in keeping with the rest of the game.
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I don't. You're just refusing to define "risk." Why do you object to having to do any work to earn the salvage?
Risk is the chance of actually loosing something of value. What do you risk as a ninja salvager? If there are rats you just bug out. The mission runner is risking their ship it may be a small amount of risk if they aren't idiots but you are risking nothing.
What exactly is the risk you face when Ninja Salvaging in highsec?
Jack all that's what.
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It already is. If you want the salvage, you need to beat him.
I want to beat them I'm just not allowed to because of poorly rationalized game mechanic.
Ninja-salvagers are the lowest of the low. The ultimate carebears. Can-flippers deserve much more respect than you do at least they put their ships and isk on the line.
Hell seems like most of them flip cans because they want to fight.
You just want a no risk isk source and let other people do the actual work.
And yeah I get it the situation isn't likely to change but don't pretend for a moment that ninja-salvagings are doing is anything other than engaging in no risk theft.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.29 20:35:00 -
[60]
It's been said before, but hi-sec mission runners dont get to complain about risk.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.29 20:46:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Malcanis
It's been said before, but hi-sec mission runners dont get to complain about risk.
If that's the case then highsec ninja-salvagers have even less right to talk about risk.
The high sec mission runner at a minimum has to invest serious time and boredom to get to the point where they are doing the high level m missions. What's it take to be a ninja-salvager? A day or two to train up salvage?
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.09.29 20:46:00 -
[62]
Threads like these make me want to take up ninja salvaging.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.29 20:47:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Tippia on 29/09/2009 20:48:42
Originally by: Skex Relbore
What the hell are you talking about? The mission runner is doing the work by creating the wrecks.
…and he's rewarded for it by collecting bounties and getting loot ownership. If it's done within the context of a mission, he most likely gets mission rewards, time bonuses, standing and LP for it as well. If he wants the salvage, he needs to work for it. It's very little work, mind you — just scoot over there (or within 20–40km), activate tractor and/or salvager. Very little effort compared to what the "ninja" has to put in.
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The ore isn't created out of thin air it's harvested out of asteroids then that ore is processed into the minerals that the industrialists use. Those industrialist have to either purchase those raw materials or go mine or and process it themselves. That's work.
Riiiiiigh. So… right-click→buy is more work than probing down a mission site, identifying the wrecks, figuring out whether it's a worth-while hit, travelling through n number of gates, and zipping back and forth between a bunch of spread-out wrecks. You see, just because you (incorrectly) believe that there is no work involved in salvaging — probably because you only see it from the far easier MR side — doesn't mean there is none.
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Oh yeah cause it's a real competition between a mission runner equiped with mostly weapons compared to the Ninja-salvager who doesn't have to equip for combat since they are 99% safe from any risk.
The mission runner is already on-site. He knows exactly where, when and what type of wrecks will appear. He can collect these wrecks at range. He has every advantage. If he fails to make use of this advantage, then that's his problem. Yes, it's a competition — one that is heavily skewed in the mission-runner's favour.
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Risk is the chance of actually loosing something of value.
That risk already exists. The mission-runner might beat him to the punch, making all the work the ninja has put in worthless.
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I want to beat them I'm just not allowed to because of poorly rationalized game mechanic.
So now you're saying that you can't salvage your own wrecks? Ehm. Yes you can beat them. Thoroughly and soundly. The problem is that you actually have to put the tiiiiiniest bit of effort into it (again, far less effort than they have to), and that's what all these salvage whines boil down to: mission runners who refuse to make any effort whatsoever.
Quote:
If that's the case then highsec ninja-salvagers have even less right to talk about risk.
Ninja salvagers have every right to talk about risk since they actually engage in a PvP activity that comes with the inherent risk of ending up with exactly nothing, unlike mission-running.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.29 21:09:00 -
[64]
Simply not gaining something is not a risk. It may be an opportunity cost but it's not a risk. A risk is the actual posibility of a loss and you can't lose what you don't have.
For what it's worth my mission ships equip a tractor and a salvager (my Brutix carries 2 salvagers to speed things along at the end of the fight.
And I've not yet had to deal with Ninja salvagers so it's not been an issue that directly affects me at this point.
But at least at my current level of play (level2 missions) Salvage is the main source of my mission running income. So if the same percentage of isk continues to come from salvage in higher level missions then it's a fecking big deal to the mission runner. I image most do it like me in order to finance other activities rather than for the pure joy of running the same missions over and over again until you can do them in your sleep.
What are you investing again? Time looking for the mission runners to rob? Those mission runners had to invest the time to grind up the faction to get the standings with those high level, high quality agents which I'd say equals a hell of a lot more god damned time than you spend scanning them down.
As I said I know it's not going to change but don't sit here and try to claim that you are risking anything when you aren't.
CCP has decided to bless your activity with legitimacy and that's fine it's their game and I'm willing to play it on their terms. The things I like about the game more than outweigh those things I find stupid (like ninja-salvaging not being considered theft).
But the reality is that the developers current position on ninja-salvaging is not consistent with the rest of the game.
I think it would be an improvement to the game if Ninja-salvaging where considered theft for aggression purposes. Hell at that point I'd be interested in trying it since it would then provide an oportunity for pew pew action.
For now I'm off to join RvB to get blowed up some.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.29 21:32:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Simply not gaining something is not a risk. It may be an opportunity cost but it's not a risk. A risk is the actual posibility of a loss and you can't lose what you don't have.
Mission runners seem to disagree, since they keep moaning about salvage "theft"…
As for risk vs. opportunity cost — it's the same with a large number of the professions in EVE. The problem, really, is that the tired "risk vs. reward" spiel is… well… tired. It's more a question of effort vs. reward in most cases, because even a "loss" in your sense is just that: effort gone to waste.
Quote:
For what it's worth my mission ships equip a tractor and a salvager (my Brutix carries 2 salvagers to speed things along at the end of the fight.
And I've not yet had to deal with Ninja salvagers so it's not been an issue that directly affects me at this point.
That's for two reasons: one, you make sure you're not a useful target. You're hard to probe down and your ship doesn't scream "mission runner!!" Two: you're actually prepared for the competition.
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So if the same percentage of isk continues to come from salvage in higher level missions then it's a fecking big deal to the mission runner.
It isn't. At higher levels, the $$$álies in bounties and LP (to the point where many MRs simply ignore loot and salvage because it takes too long to collect for what it pays, when you could instead be out there earning more bounties and LP).
Quote:
Those mission runners had to invest the time to grind up the faction to get the standings with those high level, high quality agents which I'd say equals a hell of a lot more god damned time than you spend scanning them down.
And again, all that effort is already being rewarded through LP, bounties, looting rights, mission rewards, time bonuses, and standings and all the benefits that comes with it (tax breaks, additional services etc). Salvage is not part of the reward package — it's a separate activity that you can engage in at the same time (or even without running missions at all). If you want that bonus income, you need to put in the extra effort to earn it because you're already being compensated for the effort you put into getting the mission.
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I think it would be an improvement to the game if Ninja-salvaging where considered theft for aggression purposes.
It wouldn't be an improvement because that would only serve to boost an already over-rewarded activity (mission-running).
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.09.29 21:43:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Avoida
We all know that upon entering a deadspace, the signature of your ship is reduced significantly so that probing becomes more difficult. Drones, however, are not subject to that effect and thus stand out like a beacon for a probe.
This is doubly false, although it was partly true at times in the past.
1) Deadspace has not offered any probing protection since Apocrypha. That protection was a kludge put in because of borked design from the previous probing system; it was removed with the advent of a better-designed probing system in Apocrypha.
2) When deadspace had a protective penalty, drones were (mostly) subject to it. However, drones are usually used in multiples of five, meaning that a hard-working salvager like myself had six chances to find the missioner rather than just one. And there were some drones (some types, not all, and only at first, this was fairly quickly fixed) that had anomalous signal strengths that made them very easy to scan.
------------------
Ironfleet.com |
Discrodia
Gallente
Unknown-Entity
Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.09.29 22:03:00 -
[67]
To the MR's, I will answer your questions in a very rational and simple manner:
#1. Regardless of who salvages, the MR makes money. He gets LP, Money, and standing. The salvager risks wasting his time if the MR is an able salvager.
#2. The MR frequently doesn't salvage all his wrecks, and it's more efficent, to make a wildlife example, for the vultures to eat everything than for the lions to eat some and chase away the vultures.
#3. There is all of no risk in the MR's job. He will make money and not lose anything regardless. The salvager risks his time because if he gets no salvage, he makes no money.
#4. Mission runners can move to losec and 0.0. Then you can deal with the problem on your own terms.
ALTERNATIVLY
Move away from a mission hub.
________________________________________________
If you are dead or still alive, I don't care... |
Jack Coutu
Gallente
The Happy Spacemen
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Posted - 2009.09.29 22:50:00 -
[68]
If they outlaw ninja salvaging, people will still find a way to make you idiots who pay a game to do something you all consider "BORING" and "hard to get too" unhappy. You are a miserable lot, I hope you have nothing but nerfs placed upon you.
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Pandemonium Heresy
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.30 00:42:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Why isn't salvaging considered 'stealing' by CONCORD yet?
Because CONCORD has better things to do then make sure your trash is safe. /thread
Quote:
A military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective. -Sun-tzu
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.30 02:03:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Malcanis
It's been said before, but hi-sec mission runners dont get to complain about risk.
The only 'profession' that has less risk than mission-running yet still requires undocking is ninja-salvaging.
Violating salvage rights should not be illegal (ie, should not be CONCORDable). But mission-runners should be allowed by CONCORD to enforce their own salvage rights, should they choose to do so, in exactly the same way a miner is allowed, should they choose, to enforce their rights to the contents of can-shaped space debris that often floats near them while they are on the job.
--
Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.30 07:18:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Tippia on 30/09/2009 07:19:16
Originally by: Becq Starforged
But mission-runners should be allowed by CONCORD to enforce their own salvage rights, should they choose to do so in exactly the same way a miner is allowed, should they choose, to enforce their rights to the contents of can-shaped space debris that often floats near them while they are on the job.
The difference is that, the miner has already extracted that ore from the environment, claimed as his, and then ejected it. Exactly the same as if a MR chooses to jettison the salvage he has extracted from the environment. So the rights you speak of are already in the game and they already work exactly the same for both miners and mission-runners.
And again: the risk in salvaging lies in wasting your time — a far higher risk than anything you encounter running missions (since they are purposefully designed not to do this).
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.30 09:24:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Becq Starforged
Originally by: Malcanis
It's been said before, but hi-sec mission runners dont get to complain about risk.
The only 'profession' that has less risk than mission-running yet still requires undocking is ninja-salvaging.
They have the same risk; none.
I have suggested already: Make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec and let things work themselves out.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.30 09:47:00 -
[73]
Quote:
But mission-runners should be allowed by CONCORD to enforce their own salvage rights, should they choose to do so
M-Runners do get the ability to claim Salvage rights, its called salvaging the wreck first.
Its your choice to leave them there until you can come back later to salvage rather than removing one high slot item to ffit a salvager.
Oh and please - LEARN WHAT SALVAGE MEANS!
Quote:
in maritime law, the rescue of a ship or its cargo on navigable waters from a peril that, except for the rescuerÆs assistance, would have led to the loss or destruction of the property. Under some jurisdictions, aircraft may also be salved. Except for salvage performed under contract, the rescuerùknown as the salvorùmust act voluntarily without being under any legal duty to do so, apart from the general duty to give assistance to those in peril at sea or to stand by after a collision. So long as the owner or his agent remains on the ship, unwanted offers of salvage may be refused. A derelictùa vessel found entirely deserted or abandoned without hope or intention of recoveryùis, however, fair game for anyone who comes across it. Typical acts of salvage include releasing ships that have run aground or on reefs, raising sunken ships (or their cargo), putting out fires, and so on.
SALVAGE is first come first served, and free for all.
I am a mission runner at times and only once have been bothered by a ninja. There are many ways to avoid having someone ninja the salvage while missioning.....
...Crying on the forums is not one of them!
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Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer
"I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!"
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John O'Mally
Raxor Development
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Posted - 2009.09.30 10:12:00 -
[74]
Edited by: John O''Mally on 30/09/2009 10:12:02
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Becq Starforged
Originally by: Malcanis
It's been said before, but hi-sec mission runners dont get to complain about risk.
The only 'profession' that has less risk than mission-running yet still requires undocking is ninja-salvaging.
They have the same risk; none.
Not strictly true. You ever jumped in to "Recon 3/3" in a Buzzard?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.30 11:13:00 -
[75]
Quote:
Better question: why not let people take loot from wrecks without consequence, as well?
Dunno if someone reacted on this allready, too lazy to read entire tpoic. But i believe in dominion they at least add option to allow everyone to take your loot (and i will definately have that option enabled, then when i got ninja looter in mission i lose some loot but at least dont have chance to accidently target him and fire on him, which would only cost me an expensive mission ship).
Which is immediatly the reason i dont understand why people want to fire on ninja salvagers, the only result is that you lose your mission ship.
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N Ano
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Posted - 2009.09.30 11:36:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tippia
Wrong forum, old topic, nothing newà Impressive.
As for the answer, per CCP Prism X: Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK?
It's not.
It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
In other words: they can't steal something that isn't yours. Salvage isn't yours ù in fact, it doesn't even exist ù before you create it by running a salvager on a wreck, at which point your salvage appears in your cargo hold. If someone steals your salvage, you can shoot them because you will either have theft aggression rights on them or killrights.
This pretty much sums it up. No need to post any more about this. Move along, move along.
Originally by: Blane Xero
SoonÖ. Shortly AfterÖ Iceland Conquers the WorldÖ
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Doddy
The Executives
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.30 12:52:00 -
[77]
Originally by: PhoenixBomb
Better question: why not let people take loot from wrecks without consequence, as well?
/dons flame shield and mace of trolling
This tbh, i think the crying would be too much to take though.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.02 18:43:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jint Hikaru
Quote:
But mission-runners should be allowed by CONCORD to enforce their own salvage rights, should they choose to do so
M-Runners do get the ability to claim Salvage rights, its called salvaging the wreck first.
Its your choice to leave them there until you can come back later to salvage rather than removing one high slot item to ffit a salvager.
Oh and please - LEARN WHAT SALVAGE MEANS!
Quote:
in maritime law, the rescue of a ship or its cargo on navigable waters from a peril that, except for the rescuerÆs assistance, would have led to the loss or destruction of the property. Under some jurisdictions, aircraft may also be salved. Except for salvage performed under contract, the rescuerùknown as the salvorùmust act voluntarily without being under any legal duty to do so, apart from the general duty to give assistance to those in peril at sea or to stand by after a collision. So long as the owner or his agent remains on the ship, unwanted offers of salvage may be refused. A derelictùa vessel found entirely deserted or abandoned without hope or intention of recoveryùis, however, fair game for anyone who comes across it. Typical acts of salvage include releasing ships that have run aground or on reefs, raising sunken ships (or their cargo), putting out fires, and so on.
SALVAGE is first come first served, and free for all.
I am a mission runner at times and only once have been bothered by a ninja. There are many ways to avoid having someone ninja the salvage while missioning.....
...Crying on the forums is not one of them!
Pointing out that a game mechanic is stupid is not crying it's called constructive critism.
I also find it strange that those who support the current system where the Ninja-salvager faces no possibility of combat accuse those of us who think it should be a valid justification for combat the carebears.
I'm sorry but in this debate the carebears are the "Ninjas".
If I made a smoldering pile of space junk out of an enemy spaceship I should get first claim on any salvage that is recoverable. If some little trashman comes along then I should be able to chose whether to make an issue of their activity.
Just like if I'm jetcan mining and some can flipper comes along looking for an easy mark I can chose to ignore the flip and what ever loss that entails or to retaliate.
Hell if I'm jetcanning it's mainly because I'm looking for a fight anyway.
Also your real world example is irrelevant here. These wrecks are not derelics they are in fact spoils of war and if the warship that turned them into wrecks wish's to assert their ownership then they are most certainly not abandoned with no hope or intention of recovery.
I promise you that in the real world if say the U.S Navy sunk a warship and was planning on salvaging it then no salvage company would dare try to race them to the salvage.
This is supposed to be a cold harsh universe where one's actions have consequences, So why should the Ninja-salvager get a pass from that rule?
The solution is simple treat salvage the same as any other peice of loot.
The Ninja doesn't get concordorked but they do become a valid target to the agreived party. Then let the parties ot the dispute resolve the disagreement on ownership through the normal game mechanic of combat.
Such a change would not remove salvaging as a valid profession it would simply bring it into line with the risk involved in other professions.
I didn't cry when my BC got pwned by a can flipper and I had to pay him a 20 mil isk ransom I just wrote it off as my stupid tax for trying to use heavy drones against a frigate and fighting a more experienced player with no back up.
So why do you cry about the posibility of the Ninja-salvagers 0 risk isk source being brought into line with other PVP activities?
Ninja-salvagers as things stand today are just carebears.
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Gideon Kross
Caldari
Kross Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2009.10.02 19:28:00 -
[79]
I don't see Salvage Theft as being under the jurisdiction of CONCORD, honestly.
More like an issue for the Empire Regional Police Forces to deal with... Kind of like the Navies of the various Empires reaction to pilots of negative security status entering a system, and being chased/fired upon by them.
It would give the offender the abillity to RUN, but not the abillity to dock... alternatively the offender could try to duke it out, but the outcome would'nt be favorable as more police show up, etc.
... Another idea someone posted somewhere was Salvage Licenses. This is'nt actually a half bad idea... The only trick is that instead of having them solely as the providence of NPC Empire Corps as issuers (for a fee, of course), Player Corps could also have them as a form of Contractual Agreement with individual pilots throughout Empire Space.
... just my own 0.02 isk on the subject.
Support The DEAD HORSE POS =http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=778222&page=1 |
Echoesx
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Posted - 2009.10.03 17:03:00 -
[80]
Hi, first time poster long time reader....
I first off just want to say I agree that salvage and loot is not considered yours till you have it in your cargo. But as someone had mentioned earlier, you should be able to tractor any wrecks then since it's not anyone's property.
I enjoy the fact that I can roam 0.0 looking for wrecks from engagements past, or plant traps for other salvagers ect..
My only real beef with letting rogue players into my mission is that they can often trick you into shooting them, which can be frustrating when you have a 5bil faction ship and all that.. And I cannot make any isk simply off the mission rewards/bonus as alot of missions cost me 500,000-1mil isk in ammo per mission.
If at all possible, CCP could make it that mission specific items drop in say.. "red containers" only lootable by the MR.
And my idea that I would like to have discussed, would be to either not allow players who either don't have the mission in log, or arent in the MR's fleet, access through the mission gate. OR place some sort of scan scrambler at the gate to prevent rogue players access into your mission.
I know a mechanic like this may have some flaws when it comes to 0.0 space, such as hiding within the safety of a mission, from local hostiles and such.
Discuss..
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.03 18:34:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Tippia on 03/10/2009 18:35:48
Originally by: Echoesx
as someone had mentioned earlier, you should be able to tractor any wrecks then since it's not anyone's property.
No, but it contains a cargo can (empty or not) that belongs to someone else.
Quote:
My only real beef with letting rogue players into my mission is that they can often trick you into shooting them, which can be frustrating when you have a 5bil faction ship and all that..
If you've come so far as to being able to get a 5bil-fitted faction ship, and still is so abysmally stupid as to falling for such a trick, then the rogue has done the only right thing: taught you a lesson and taken stuff you didn't deserve to have.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
hauntingappiriton
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Posted - 2009.10.06 01:40:00 -
[82]
Edited by: hauntingappiriton on 06/10/2009 01:43:29
Well I don't own the salvage but for some really odd reason I own the loot inside the wreck....that's odd now why don't I own the salve but I can have the loot that belongs to me that I got of the wreck that don't belong to me......omg my heads spining..... so if I go touch loot in a wreck that don't belong to any once cept the dead npc pirate then I go red and flashy sand you can shoot me 1+1=3 george good job! But. Here's what's fun. Did you know if you take battle ship into somes mission or any ship after you scan some one down and start killing his/her rats, that you get the bounty for killing the rat but oh crap the owner of the mission still gets the loot ut oh we got ownership issues. And that proves there is owner ship to kills like it or not you bubble heads.
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Ella C'Tronix
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Posted - 2009.10.06 09:24:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
I haven't gotten any trash men in space to salvage my missions (I only do level 1s, heh) but I don't understand why stealing the loot gives kill rights but stealing the wreck doesn't.
CCP, is there a reason for this or is it just something that wasn't apparent last patch?
Short answer: it's called "SALVAGING"
Traditionally, that's what the act involves. Finding wreckage that others left behind.
(IRL)
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AerieSE
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Posted - 2009.10.06 09:35:00 -
[84]
perhaps this will all soon come to an end. with the drastic drop in salvage value, it is now way less profitable to salvage.
hopefully, the ninjas will realize this and go somewhere else, and finally, we can have an end to these threads.
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Domoso
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Posted - 2009.10.06 13:16:00 -
[85]
Quote:
The mission runner is already on-site. He knows exactly where, when and what type of wrecks will appear. He can collect these wrecks at range. He has every advantage. If he fails to make use of this advantage, then that's his problem. Yes, it's a competition ù one that is heavily skewed in the mission-runner's favour.
Not really.
The missioner doesn't have the cargo space to loot, only salvage. And unless the missioner is heavily skilled then missions can take more than 2 hours to complete resulting in lost loot/salvage as one watches their wrecks disappear if they are unable to salvage/loot as they go.
And then there is the technique I like to use to completely demoralize the mission runner by riding shotgun on them, up close as they tractor in the wrecks. When the wrecks are in range all I need do is activate my salvagers.
Again, unless one is heavily skilled, can afford a marauder to salvage as they go then the advantage is not in the mission runner's favor. It is in the ninja's.
After losing the salvage to ninja's, it's insult to injury to watch wrecks disappear while one is still attempting to clear the mission area.
It would be nice if CCP would make wrecks in general scannable. In this way the salvager could find abandoned/completed mission sites to salvage giving them another outlet for their activities instead of being solely reliant on mission runners. Hell, if I can scan down a scout drone I ought to be able to scan down a large wreck. |
Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.10.06 13:22:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Pater Peccavi
I opened a mission the other day that had veldspar asteroids in them. I ran the mission, then came back in my mining ship. A ninja miner scanned me down and started stealing my roids, but I didn't get aggression against them!!! WTF CCP!!!!!1111 If I hadn't taken that mission, those asteroids wouldn't exist. If I hadn't shot the rats, that noobs ship would've been toast! Those asteroids belong to me, and ninja mining needs to cause aggression against the ninja miner!!!!!111111oneoneone
Interesting argument I hadn't seen before.
Though to be objective about it, wrecks do have the mission runner's corp tag and portrait linked on them (even if someone else blew up the rat!).
Roids most definitely do not have names on them.
But just so you don't think I'm arguing for them, all I do when I play EVE is scan down mission runners and steal their stuff (loot and salvage both). |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.06 14:56:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Domoso
The missioner doesn't have the cargo space to loot, only salvage.
O_o Have you seen the cargo holds on the dedicated mission ships? Heck, even the non-dedicated ones hold more than enough unless you have a serious case of OCD and absolutely have to bring every last scrap floating around.
Quote:
And unless the missioner is heavily skilled then missions can take more than 2 hours to complete
Define "heavily skilled"… And even if not, no — if they're that slow, they should just grab what they can while they're there. It's not particularly hard. I managed just fine in my 10mil-SP Myrm.
Quote:
Again, unless one is heavily skilled, can afford a marauder to salvage as they go then the advantage is not in the mission runner's favor. It is in the ninja's.
Do you have guns on your salvage boat? If not, then the advantage is still with the MR. Again: he decides where, what, and when stuff appears (and disappears). He decides what happens before and after the competition get there — the competition can only choose to go along with the situation the MR has chosen.
Quote:
After losing the salvage to ninja's, it's insult to injury to watch wrecks disappear while one is still attempting to clear the mission area.
That has more to do with incompetence than ninja salvaging.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.06 15:11:00 -
[88]
Having done level 4 missions for several weeks now I've come to realise this ninja thing is totally overblown. People should be more careful about where they mission if they want to avoid them and its not as if they get the loot, just the salvaged which most of the time I can't be bothered with anyway.
I've not had one ninja turn up in my mission (yet) and yesterday I could not even give away 60 NPC wrecks from an epic mission I had finished.
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Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:40:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Zartanic
Edited by: Zartanic on 06/10/2009 15:17:34
Having done level 4 missions for several weeks now I've come to realise this ninja thing is totally overblown. People should be more careful about where they mission if they want to avoid them and its not as if they get the loot, just the salvage which most of the time I can't be bothered with anyway.
I grab loot too.
Originally by: Zartanic
I've not had one ninja turn up in my mission (yet) and yesterday I could not even give away 60 NPC wrecks from an epic mission I had finished.
Where do you run missions?
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Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
Billy Sastard
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:47:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Where do you run missions?
I myself would welcome some more ninjas in my missions. I mission in Yarebap, a smaller amarr hub, and have had only 1 case of a salvager finding me :(
<------------------------------------------------->
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein |
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Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:50:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Originally by: Zartanic
Edited by: Zartanic on 06/10/2009 15:17:34
Having done level 4 missions for several weeks now I've come to realise this ninja thing is totally overblown. People should be more careful about where they mission if they want to avoid them and its not as if they get the loot, just the salvage which most of the time I can't be bothered with anyway.
I grab loot too.
Originally by: Zartanic
I've not had one ninja turn up in my mission (yet) and yesterday I could not even give away 60 NPC wrecks from an epic mission I had finished.
Where do you run missions?
I'm not that stupid, I don't now as I'm doing the Arc while doing PVP
I hate looting and I hate salvaging even more, so if you see me in local I'll even save you the time to scan me down.
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Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.10.06 19:13:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Billy Sastard
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Where do you run missions?
I myself would welcome some more ninjas in my missions.
How come?
Originally by: Billy Sastard
I mission in Yarebap, a smaller amarr hub, and have had only 1 case of a salvager finding me :(
Too far away to be worth it on the off chance you're online when I am, and the low odds of finding you, in particular.
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Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
AerieSE
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Posted - 2009.10.07 07:04:00 -
[93]
in 6 months i ran missions around the clock. i had 3 ninjas in those 6 months. then i got a paladin. now i get them every 3rd mission. But location is everything. if your near a mission hub your gonna get ninjad. But if you move like 3 jumps away, your all alone.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.07 07:43:00 -
[94]
Originally by: AerieSE
in 6 months i ran missions around the clock. i had 3 ninjas in those 6 months. then i got a paladin. now i get them every 3rd mission. But location is everything.
Well, not everything. Paladins (like all marauders) are ridiculously easy to scan down and simply screams "mission runner", so of course they're going to come after you.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
AerieSE
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Posted - 2009.10.07 08:10:00 -
[95]
yes, that is my conclusion as well. but with marauders you have the 3 extra highslots, so 2 salvagers and 1 tractor beam, problem solved. i actually like ninjas, provides lots of hillarious fun when they warp into worlds collide and get warp-scrambled and die (and then i loot their wreck later). i disagree with CCP on the salvage issue, but dont really care, adapt and move on.
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