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Shayden
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:10:00 -
[1]
I was just wondering if anyone can explain the reason why that the covert ops ships are that slow, and are that poor to keep a mwd going. Perhaps its not meant for flying high speeds just sit and scout cloaked. But im liking my buzzard so much that i cant help wondering why ccp made them a bit slow.
Any non covert ops users can comment this, but i'd like to hear experiences from other covert ops pilots.
Should they get an increase in speed?
Or should the Cap management be balance a bit more?
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Shayden
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:10:00 -
[2]
I was just wondering if anyone can explain the reason why that the covert ops ships are that slow, and are that poor to keep a mwd going. Perhaps its not meant for flying high speeds just sit and scout cloaked. But im liking my buzzard so much that i cant help wondering why ccp made them a bit slow.
Any non covert ops users can comment this, but i'd like to hear experiences from other covert ops pilots.
Should they get an increase in speed?
Or should the Cap management be balance a bit more?
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:59:00 -
[3]
well, it's not the cap that bashes the mwd use, it's the cloak that doesn't allow it.
Well, I just fill it with overdrives or stabs and I'm off...
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.10.26 11:59:00 -
[4]
well, it's not the cap that bashes the mwd use, it's the cloak that doesn't allow it.
Well, I just fill it with overdrives or stabs and I'm off...
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Yseult Atreus
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Posted - 2004.10.26 14:30:00 -
[5]
340m/s not really that slow. As for the mwd, stick a cap booster on.
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Yseult Atreus
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Posted - 2004.10.26 14:30:00 -
[6]
340m/s not really that slow. As for the mwd, stick a cap booster on.
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Minyon
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Posted - 2004.10.26 15:59:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Yseult Atreus
340m/s not really that slow. As for the mwd, stick a cap booster on.
Covert ops ships have very high masses just like Assault Frigates do about 2m kgs so thay will be slow whit a mwd on 
i was thinking of geting a buzzard and useing it as an ecm jamming ship for killing battle ships (yes i know you all think its a bad idea) but if it can go over 2km/s it will just get killed very fast  So could you please tell me how fast you can get it to go whit a mwd?
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Minyon
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Posted - 2004.10.26 15:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Yseult Atreus
340m/s not really that slow. As for the mwd, stick a cap booster on.
Covert ops ships have very high masses just like Assault Frigates do about 2m kgs so thay will be slow whit a mwd on
i was thinking of geting a buzzard and useing it as an ecm jamming ship for killing battle ships (yes i know you all think its a bad idea) but if it can go over 2km/s it will just get killed very fast So could you please tell me how fast you can get it to go whit a mwd?
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Mimo
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Posted - 2004.10.26 17:06:00 -
[9]
My Cheetah has 505m/s base speed in my current setup. 2km/s with MWD.. no problem.
I terrible lag CPU though in that ship, with skill at lvl 4, so a Cheetah would need it at 5 to kit any senseable medslot outfit.
Combat in a CovertOps is just a bit expensive on the long run imo, so i didn¦t bother thinking about it so far. At least not before finishing Cov Ops Frig skill level 5.
I think Buzzard has more CPU spare and more med slots, so you could actually fit something useful in it. Still the shields, armor, structure and resistances of a CovOps don¦t make me really wanting to bring that $$ ship anything near that has teeth.
For cloak combat purpose i would suggest using a Crow. Cloak, 3 Launchers, 10MN AB, Web, Scrambler, etc do the trick better on the offense side.
For the cap issue. I think it¦s in need of a slight increasement. I have all cap skills at 5, and i have problems jumping from one gate to another in every 3rd sector.
That¦s why i have 1 MWD and only caprechargers in medslots atm 
Not to speak of using MWD and EW at the same time 
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Mimo
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Posted - 2004.10.26 17:06:00 -
[10]
My Cheetah has 505m/s base speed in my current setup. 2km/s with MWD.. no problem.
I terrible lag CPU though in that ship, with skill at lvl 4, so a Cheetah would need it at 5 to kit any senseable medslot outfit.
Combat in a CovertOps is just a bit expensive on the long run imo, so i didn¦t bother thinking about it so far. At least not before finishing Cov Ops Frig skill level 5.
I think Buzzard has more CPU spare and more med slots, so you could actually fit something useful in it. Still the shields, armor, structure and resistances of a CovOps don¦t make me really wanting to bring that $$ ship anything near that has teeth.
For cloak combat purpose i would suggest using a Crow. Cloak, 3 Launchers, 10MN AB, Web, Scrambler, etc do the trick better on the offense side.
For the cap issue. I think it¦s in need of a slight increasement. I have all cap skills at 5, and i have problems jumping from one gate to another in every 3rd sector.
That¦s why i have 1 MWD and only caprechargers in medslots atm
Not to speak of using MWD and EW at the same time
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2004.10.26 17:34:00 -
[11]
I have a cheetah and it is ok on speed. But its impossible to come up with a setup that is both fast and has decent weapons on it. I think ccp intended to have them as scout ships only and didn't want them to be able to compete with other frigs in PvP.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2004.10.26 17:34:00 -
[12]
I have a cheetah and it is ok on speed. But its impossible to come up with a setup that is both fast and has decent weapons on it. I think ccp intended to have them as scout ships only and didn't want them to be able to compete with other frigs in PvP.
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Shayden
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Posted - 2004.10.27 07:30:00 -
[13]
The Cheetah of course is based on the vigil hull. One of the fastest frigates. With one mwd i get my buzzard up to 1300m/s....
Its not bad if you fit launchers with defenders but i still think the speed should be around 1500m/s. And thats only a small increase in base speed. Oh well *crosses fingers*
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Shayden
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Posted - 2004.10.27 07:30:00 -
[14]
The Cheetah of course is based on the vigil hull. One of the fastest frigates. With one mwd i get my buzzard up to 1300m/s....
Its not bad if you fit launchers with defenders but i still think the speed should be around 1500m/s. And thats only a small increase in base speed. Oh well *crosses fingers*
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.27 08:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
I have a cheetah and it is ok on speed. But its impossible to come up with a setup that is both fast and has decent weapons on it. I think ccp intended to have them as scout ships only and didn't want them to be able to compete with other frigs in PvP.
you would think for 120mill frig they would throw us a bone and at least let us stay cloaked while we jump! 
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.27 08:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
I have a cheetah and it is ok on speed. But its impossible to come up with a setup that is both fast and has decent weapons on it. I think ccp intended to have them as scout ships only and didn't want them to be able to compete with other frigs in PvP.
you would think for 120mill frig they would throw us a bone and at least let us stay cloaked while we jump!
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Steevodeevo
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:18:00 -
[17]
It would help if we could go into jump without decloaking first. Trying to autopilot thru a jump with cloak on is usually the last mistake you make when an enemy is around...
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Steevodeevo
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:18:00 -
[18]
It would help if we could go into jump without decloaking first. Trying to autopilot thru a jump with cloak on is usually the last mistake you make when an enemy is around...
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Mr Gimlet
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:56:00 -
[19]
Well i agree with most of what is said above. I must say though that i cant see these ships ever being combat ships or active support ships in a larger battle. They are just too weak IMO.
I think the entire class is in need of a bit of a sweetner though as they are tricky to use effectively.
The speed is poor when you consider that you cant use speed boosters while cloaked and the cap is too small, and even a 13.5au/sec warp does not realy make up for this. I have found myself running out of cap on long warps which as a character with over 16 mill SP i thought was something i would not see again.
As for the cloaked jumping - thats got to be an oversight. It is imposible to fly the ship cloaked on autopilot without you keep hitting stop at both sides of the gate, so i end up flying the ship everwhere manually, which works better, but why should this ship suffer this particular problem ?
I must finally add though that these ships do have real advantages especialy in long term fleet combat that make them an absolutely necessairy addition to any fleet 
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Mr Gimlet
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:56:00 -
[20]
Well i agree with most of what is said above. I must say though that i cant see these ships ever being combat ships or active support ships in a larger battle. They are just too weak IMO.
I think the entire class is in need of a bit of a sweetner though as they are tricky to use effectively.
The speed is poor when you consider that you cant use speed boosters while cloaked and the cap is too small, and even a 13.5au/sec warp does not realy make up for this. I have found myself running out of cap on long warps which as a character with over 16 mill SP i thought was something i would not see again.
As for the cloaked jumping - thats got to be an oversight. It is imposible to fly the ship cloaked on autopilot without you keep hitting stop at both sides of the gate, so i end up flying the ship everwhere manually, which works better, but why should this ship suffer this particular problem ?
I must finally add though that these ships do have real advantages especialy in long term fleet combat that make them an absolutely necessairy addition to any fleet
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.10.27 11:53:00 -
[21]
Anyone fitting a MWD to a Covert Ops frig and expecting to be able to fight with it is missing the point. You can't use the MWD while cloaked, so you might as well go buy a Stiletto if you want the speed and save about 90% of the cost.
Originally by: Hakera
you would think for 120mill frig they would throw us a bone and at least let us stay cloaked while we jump!
Agreed.
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.10.27 11:53:00 -
[22]
Anyone fitting a MWD to a Covert Ops frig and expecting to be able to fight with it is missing the point. You can't use the MWD while cloaked, so you might as well go buy a Stiletto if you want the speed and save about 90% of the cost.
Originally by: Hakera
you would think for 120mill frig they would throw us a bone and at least let us stay cloaked while we jump!
Agreed.
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Shayden
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sphalerite
Anyone fitting a MWD to a Covert Ops frig and expecting to be able to fight with it is missing the point. You can't use the MWD while cloaked, so you might as well go buy a Stiletto if you want the speed and save about 90% of the cost.
Erm dude... what youre saying is that you fight cloaked? you dont make much sense.
But i agree with the other posts about the ability to stay cloaked when jumping. The thing about the ships is that they work great in the role of spying and to gain information. But i think that the ships should not be limited to that only. Heck a frigate with the cheapest cloaking device can do the same AND work as an active part in the fleet battle.
I think ccp should look at the cap problem of the ships, because they really dont have any. Why should you not be able to fit a mwd and have it holding on these ships? Why?
Its called ELITE FRIGATE isnt it? 
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Shayden
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sphalerite
Anyone fitting a MWD to a Covert Ops frig and expecting to be able to fight with it is missing the point. You can't use the MWD while cloaked, so you might as well go buy a Stiletto if you want the speed and save about 90% of the cost.
Erm dude... what youre saying is that you fight cloaked? you dont make much sense.
But i agree with the other posts about the ability to stay cloaked when jumping. The thing about the ships is that they work great in the role of spying and to gain information. But i think that the ships should not be limited to that only. Heck a frigate with the cheapest cloaking device can do the same AND work as an active part in the fleet battle.
I think ccp should look at the cap problem of the ships, because they really dont have any. Why should you not be able to fit a mwd and have it holding on these ships? Why?
Its called ELITE FRIGATE isnt it?
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Akallabeth Avaria
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:02:00 -
[25]
Yeah, i use a dual mwd setup while im travelling, and only use the cloak when i need! Anyone seen the covert ops ship description?
"Designed for commando and espionage operation, its main strength is the ability to travel unseen through enemy territory and to avoid unfavorable encounters."
Why cant these ships use a passive targetter and a ship scanner while cloaked?`Then they truely would be espionage ships!
"Stay out of the road if you wanna grow old"
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Akallabeth Avaria
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:02:00 -
[26]
Yeah, i use a dual mwd setup while im travelling, and only use the cloak when i need! Anyone seen the covert ops ship description?
"Designed for commando and espionage operation, its main strength is the ability to travel unseen through enemy territory and to avoid unfavorable encounters."
Why cant these ships use a passive targetter and a ship scanner while cloaked?`Then they truely would be espionage ships!
"Stay out of the road if you wanna grow old"
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Mr Gimlet
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Posted - 2004.10.29 08:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shayden
Heck a frigate with the cheapest cloaking device can do the same AND work as an active part in the fleet battle.
[/quote
Gosh - Yeah - i think this statement realy highlights the current problem with covert ops perfectly. Why spend 60-70 mill when you can do the same for 5 mill. I had never thought of it like that b4
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Mr Gimlet
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Posted - 2004.10.29 08:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shayden
Heck a frigate with the cheapest cloaking device can do the same AND work as an active part in the fleet battle.
[/quote
Gosh - Yeah - i think this statement realy highlights the current problem with covert ops perfectly. Why spend 60-70 mill when you can do the same for 5 mill. I had never thought of it like that b4
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EveJunkie
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Posted - 2004.10.30 00:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Akallabeth Avaria
Why cant these ships use a passive targetter and a ship scanner while cloaked?`Then they truely would be espionage ships!
Yeh I suggested this a while back also, would make the ship scanner module useful at last.
Its a real shame that the cov ops ship is so slow, its ment to be a scout but whenever I get asked to go scout ahead of the fleet I get there long after the intis and only just before the BS. They should definatly have a much higher base speed. The high warp speed really isnt that useful as most jumps arnt long enough to make it up to full warp speed.
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EveJunkie
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Posted - 2004.10.30 00:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akallabeth Avaria
Why cant these ships use a passive targetter and a ship scanner while cloaked?`Then they truely would be espionage ships!
Yeh I suggested this a while back also, would make the ship scanner module useful at last.
Its a real shame that the cov ops ship is so slow, its ment to be a scout but whenever I get asked to go scout ahead of the fleet I get there long after the intis and only just before the BS. They should definatly have a much higher base speed. The high warp speed really isnt that useful as most jumps arnt long enough to make it up to full warp speed.
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Yseult Atreus
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Posted - 2004.10.30 20:55:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mr Gimlet
Originally by: Shayden
Heck a frigate with the cheapest cloaking device can do the same AND work as an active part in the fleet battle.
[/quote
Gosh - Yeah - i think this statement realy highlights the current problem with covert ops perfectly. Why spend 60-70 mill when you can do the same for 5 mill. I had never thought of it like that b4
Because you can't. Really. You can't warp cloaked as a Cov-ops can so your target sees you arrive and you have a verysmall window of opportunity to cloak in before he/they start to target you and prevent you from cloaking (The lock doesn't need to complete to stop you).
Assuming you manage to cloak, your speed has now been reduced to that of an Indy and you have verylittle chance of getting 2k clear of the point where they last saw you before an Inty arrives at that point, which will uncloak you again.
If you manage to cloak and clear the datum successfully you are now faced with crawling slowly tens of kilometers into a position where your gang mates can warp to you, which will place you squarely between your side and their side in a very slow ship about to be uncloaked by the first passing missile.
Except, of course, that, they saw you arrive and cloak, they know whats coming and they'll move and you'll never get into that position cos you're so slow.
With a Cov-ops, they won't know you're there until the hammer drops.
3 Things Not To Do With A Cov-ops
- Warp Directly From Gate to Gate. (Anything you pass will uncloak you)
- While Cloaked, Zoom Out Too Far ( If you uncloak for any reason you won't realise that it's happened)
- Forget That This is a Scout. (NOT a tackler)
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Yseult Atreus
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Posted - 2004.10.30 20:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mr Gimlet
Originally by: Shayden
Heck a frigate with the cheapest cloaking device can do the same AND work as an active part in the fleet battle.
[/quote
Gosh - Yeah - i think this statement realy highlights the current problem with covert ops perfectly. Why spend 60-70 mill when you can do the same for 5 mill. I had never thought of it like that b4
Because you can't. Really. You can't warp cloaked as a Cov-ops can so your target sees you arrive and you have a verysmall window of opportunity to cloak in before he/they start to target you and prevent you from cloaking (The lock doesn't need to complete to stop you).
Assuming you manage to cloak, your speed has now been reduced to that of an Indy and you have verylittle chance of getting 2k clear of the point where they last saw you before an Inty arrives at that point, which will uncloak you again.
If you manage to cloak and clear the datum successfully you are now faced with crawling slowly tens of kilometers into a position where your gang mates can warp to you, which will place you squarely between your side and their side in a very slow ship about to be uncloaked by the first passing missile.
Except, of course, that, they saw you arrive and cloak, they know whats coming and they'll move and you'll never get into that position cos you're so slow.
With a Cov-ops, they won't know you're there until the hammer drops.
3 Things Not To Do With A Cov-ops
- Warp Directly From Gate to Gate. (Anything you pass will uncloak you)
- While Cloaked, Zoom Out Too Far ( If you uncloak for any reason you won't realise that it's happened)
- Forget That This is a Scout. (NOT a tackler)
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Yseult Atreus
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Posted - 2004.10.30 21:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: EveJunkie
Originally by: Akallabeth Avaria
Why cant these ships use a passive targetter and a ship scanner while cloaked?`Then they truely would be espionage ships!
Yeh I suggested this a while back also, would make the ship scanner module useful at last.
Its a real shame that the cov ops ship is so slow, its ment to be a scout but whenever I get asked to go scout ahead of the fleet I get there long after the intis and only just before the BS. They should definatly have a much higher base speed. The high warp speed really isnt that useful as most jumps arnt long enough to make it up to full warp speed.
I'm thinking that there are two different kinds of scout. Intys belong to the 'Recon by fire/Advance to contact' type. Whereas Cov-ops are part of the 'Sneak up on em' family. While they're both fleet assets they should be used differently. and never mixed
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Yseult Atreus
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Posted - 2004.10.30 21:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: EveJunkie
Originally by: Akallabeth Avaria
Why cant these ships use a passive targetter and a ship scanner while cloaked?`Then they truely would be espionage ships!
Yeh I suggested this a while back also, would make the ship scanner module useful at last.
Its a real shame that the cov ops ship is so slow, its ment to be a scout but whenever I get asked to go scout ahead of the fleet I get there long after the intis and only just before the BS. They should definatly have a much higher base speed. The high warp speed really isnt that useful as most jumps arnt long enough to make it up to full warp speed.
I'm thinking that there are two different kinds of scout. Intys belong to the 'Recon by fire/Advance to contact' type. Whereas Cov-ops are part of the 'Sneak up on em' family. While they're both fleet assets they should be used differently. and never mixed
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Sangxianc
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Posted - 2004.10.30 21:21:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Sangxianc on 30/10/2004 22:01:13
I think the Helios should have quite a large drone bay, 250m^3 at least, since it belongs to the drone race.
In fact, after looking at Eve-i, it gets a drone bonus (+50% scout drone thermal damage), so why did you only give it 100m^3 to work with?
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Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. |
Sangxianc
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Posted - 2004.10.30 21:21:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Sangxianc on 30/10/2004 22:01:13
I think the Helios should have quite a large drone bay, 250m^3 at least, since it belongs to the drone race.
In fact, after looking at Eve-i, it gets a drone bonus (+50% scout drone thermal damage), so why did you only give it 100m^3 to work with?
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Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. |
Arte
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Posted - 2004.10.31 09:19:00 -
[37]
I think that the cov-ops ships can be used as offensive assets, it's just that you need a large set of '******* to do it, the helios is good for it, though I haven't tried any of the others, using it as a rather expensive EW frig which has the option of operating from longer range.
The speed with a MWD fitted reminds me of the kestrel which is also a heavy frigate, it's just that weight that makes the MWD/AB speed so little, I think the base speed is more than adequate.
Either fit dual mwd and suffer the penalties, to get any kind of respectable speed out of it, or just blow them off and fit an AB or go without. Only real problem is if you get caught short whilst uncloaked and I don't think one MWD is gonna save you in that instance if you can't escape.
Not experienced the cap problem whilst warping, so won't comment on that one, though on helios can fit cap rechargers more readily so perhaps that's why It's not such a problem.
I'd be interested to see what these black ops ships bring to the party and how they will differ from 'normal' cov-ops ships.
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Arte
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Posted - 2004.10.31 09:19:00 -
[38]
I think that the cov-ops ships can be used as offensive assets, it's just that you need a large set of '******* to do it, the helios is good for it, though I haven't tried any of the others, using it as a rather expensive EW frig which has the option of operating from longer range.
The speed with a MWD fitted reminds me of the kestrel which is also a heavy frigate, it's just that weight that makes the MWD/AB speed so little, I think the base speed is more than adequate.
Either fit dual mwd and suffer the penalties, to get any kind of respectable speed out of it, or just blow them off and fit an AB or go without. Only real problem is if you get caught short whilst uncloaked and I don't think one MWD is gonna save you in that instance if you can't escape.
Not experienced the cap problem whilst warping, so won't comment on that one, though on helios can fit cap rechargers more readily so perhaps that's why It's not such a problem.
I'd be interested to see what these black ops ships bring to the party and how they will differ from 'normal' cov-ops ships.
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Rijinni
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Posted - 2004.11.01 02:39:00 -
[39]
Black ops are coming in shiva?
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Rijinni
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Posted - 2004.11.01 02:39:00 -
[40]
Black ops are coming in shiva?
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