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Octa Butler
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Posted - 2009.10.04 06:53:00 -
[1]
I'm currently trying to decide where to go next in my missioning. That's right the context of this question is completely PvE.
Right now I'm in a Drake, and I love its tank. Its passive, no shield boosts at all, just 2-3 hardeners and extenders. What I don't like is the DPS, since I have not gone t2, and I'm too cheap for heavy arby launchers. So I'm trying to decide whether to stay with the drake or train up the raven.
Almost every Raven fit I've come across is an active fit with a xl boost and an amp, plus all the cap modules that go with it. So my basic question for this thread comes down to passive shield tanking in the Raven. Why not do it? The added sig radius and the lower speed is the only reason I can come up with not to.
But is that really gonna end up squishing me? EFT show my Raven at about 20k more shield(~86k) than the Drake, resists are comparable.
I'm leaning right now with the Drake if I need to do active tanking in the Raven, with t2 launchers and t2 ammo, I get much better DPS.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 06:56:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 04/10/2009 06:56:39 The Raven is a far superior mission runner - but fly what you like. :)
-Liang
Ed: Passive shield tanking a Raven is pretty fail - it has good hp but lacks recharge. Look to the Rattlesnake for that. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 07:29:00 -
[3]
Passive tanking a Raven is not fail it works perfectly well and has no problem running missions just as fast as the active tank. Both active tanking and passive tanking work so just choose which ever is your preferred method. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 07:31:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Pottsey Passive tanking a Raven is not fail it works perfectly well and has no problem running missions just as fast as the active tank. Both active tanking and passive tanking work so just choose which ever is your preferred method.
I don't give a ****** what your fit is, it doesn't run missions as fast as an active tank.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 07:34:00 -
[5]
Unless you feel like fitting deadspace gear, your standard run-of-the-mill Raven just isn't going to cut it. It doesn't have superior DPS potential if you want a solid tank, and it has serious locking speed and velocity issues. For practical purposes, the only way to get superior performance is a Nighthawk or a CNR. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 07:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Allen Ramses Unless you feel like fitting deadspace gear, your standard run-of-the-mill Raven just isn't going to cut it. It doesn't have superior DPS potential if you want a solid tank, and it has serious locking speed and velocity issues. For practical purposes, the only way to get superior performance is a Nighthawk or a CNR.
Comments: - Locking speed generally isn't an issue if you manage the mission right. There's always something locked and ready to shoot. Saves what, 2-3 seconds at the very beginning of the mission? - Velocity isn't an issue in the overwhelming majority of missions. - Kinetic bonuses are weak. If your enemy isn't vulnerable to kin, a Raven is a better choice
I mean, yes, CNR > Golem > NH > Raven > Drake (in mission completion times - Golem is in a world of its own for solo isk making).
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 07:45:00 -
[7]
Liang Nuren said" I don't give a ****** what your fit is, it doesn't run missions as fast as an active tank." How can it not run just as fast when it can do the same DPS output and fit just as many none tanking modules? It might come out with a weaker tank DPS tank with a bigger buffer but still more than enough tank to do the mission. So it can run just as fast as most if not all active tank setups. Who cares which tank is better when both can tank the mission ok and both run the mission at the same speed.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 07:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pottsey It might come out with a weaker tank DPS tank with a bigger buffer but still more than enough tank to do the mission.
Say that again after doing Silence the Informant or Stop the Thief. Either of those can melt through even the biggest buffer before you could kill enough DPS to even it out... Unless you're using faction/deadspace gear, of course. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 08:00:00 -
[9]
Allen Ramses said " Say that again after doing Silence the Informant or Stop the Thief. Either of those can melt through even the biggest buffer before you could kill enough DPS to even it out... Unless you're using faction/deadspace gear, of course." Never had a problem myself with both a buffer and DPS tank on those missions on other ships, so why would the Raven be any different? I find 60k to 100k+ EHP buffer with about 150dps to 300dps+ (tank dps) is normally enough as long as your output DPS is 700+. Well as long as you're sensible and don't go and get aggro from every single group at the same time in every mission.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.04 08:32:00 -
[10]
How would you go about passive tanking a Raven? need most of the lows for BCUs, need the rigs for Rigors so you can actually apply dps, that doesn't exactly leave much room for shield recharging....
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.10.04 08:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pottsey Allen Ramses said " Say that again after doing Silence the Informant or Stop the Thief. Either of those can melt through even the biggest buffer before you could kill enough DPS to even it out... Unless you're using faction/deadspace gear, of course." Never had a problem myself with both a buffer and DPS tank on those missions on other ships, so why would the Raven be any different? I find 60k to 100k+ EHP buffer with about 150dps to 300dps+ (tank dps) is normally enough as long as your output DPS is 700+. Well as long as you're sensible and don't go and get aggro from every single group at the same time in every mission.
if you wouldn't mind filling in the empty slots on this cnr for the working passive tank I would love you for that, I even gave you a cnr for extra shielding.
and if that isn't the base fit you probably aren't doing the missions as fast
[Raven Navy Issue, CNR] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System [empty low slot]
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot]
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2009.10.04 08:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Von Kapiche How would you go about passive tanking a Raven? need most of the lows for BCUs, need the rigs for Rigors so you can actually apply dps, that doesn't exactly leave much room for shield recharging....
Buffer tanked with 2-3 LSE, 3 BCS, DC and PDS. We've been already over this. Root cause : Pottsey being unable to distinguish between a Kronos and a Raven, as per OP. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 09:04:00 -
[13]
Sturmwolke said " Root cause : Pottsey being unable to distinguish between a Kronos and a Raven, as per OP." I can distinguish I can also see how they are similar. Yes I fly a Kronos but the people I fly with have Ravens. The theory works on any battleship and the only real difference between a Raven or Kronos for my theory is 700+dps with missiles or 700+dps with railguns. Well I perfer to use tanking rigs on both ships as well.
Manu Hermanus said " and if that isn't the base fit you probably aren't doing the missions as fast" That's pretty close base fit to my build. There are many variations you could use based on preference. I would try something like
[Raven Navy Issue,] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Shield Power Relay II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Large Shield Extender II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Whatever your preference is.
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
With shield implants that over 200dps tank with 140 EHP buffer more if you're in a gang and 646 DPS output without missile implants. That should be more than enough for most if not all missions. Some people might prefer to swap the SPR for a PDS for less DPS tank and more buffer but I prefer to have a little faster shield recharge.
The idea being with that EHP and high DPS output you kill enough rats until the 200dps is enough to keep you alive then the SPR puts your shields back up ready for the next area. Most missions don't even need the 200dps tank the buffer is more then enough.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2009.10.04 09:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Pottsey I can distinguish I can also see how they are similar. Yes I fly a Kronos but the people I fly with have Ravens. The theory works on any battleship and the only real difference between a Raven or Kronos for my theory is 700+dps with missiles or 700+dps with railguns. Well I perfer to use tanking rigs on both ships as well.
No Pottsey, you can't. Flying with folks that run Ravens isn't quite the same as using a Raven yourself.
Massaging your figures with the ganglinks and implants, while it makes the numbers looks nice, ultimate fails when applied to many L4 missions with med-high dps - you still need to warp out at least once. It's been tested and proven - see link. The tank setup is greater that what you'd posted above, the lack of rigor rigs are irrelevant to BSes.
The dps gap difference between the (rail) Kronos vs Raven is 160dps at maxed skill with standard T1 ammo. In the practical sense, the gap is much greater due the the numerous low skill newbies in Ravens vs the pros in Kronoses. That being said, a blaster Kronos outdps the Raven by over 100% if fitted for close combat missions.
Originally by: Pottsey
The idea being with that EHP and high DPS output you kill enough rats until the 200dps is enough to keep you alive then the SPR puts your shields back up ready for the next area. Most missions don't even need the 200dps tank the buffer is more then enough.
Not applicable to the Raven, unless you want to make your life difficult.
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Lucia Wilber
King's Pride Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.04 09:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Pottsey Passive tanking a Raven is not fail it works perfectly well and has no problem running missions just as fast as the active tank. Both active tanking and passive tanking work so just choose which ever is your preferred method.
I don't give a ****** what your fit is, it doesn't run missions as fast as an active tank.
-Liang
Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but as long as you survive the mission in once piece, does your tank really have a damn thing to do with how fast you actually complete the missions?
That being said, doesn't a passive tank setup require a lot more low slots (for shield relays), and thus leave less room for BCUs? I mean, I would imagine that a passive Raven would have less DPS than an active one if for no other reason than having to dedicate more low slots to non-DPS modules, but obviously since I don't fly Caldari ships, I'm no expert on the matter.
Funnily enough, my friends and I once built an armor-tanking Raven that could run level 4s. That was a pretty entertaining fail-fit...though it DID work.
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.10.04 10:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Pottsey Manu Hermanus said " and if that isn't the base fit you probably aren't doing the missions as fast" That's pretty close base fit to my build. There are many variations you could use based on preference. I would try something like
With shield implants that over 200dps tank with 140 EHP buffer more if you're in a gang and 646 DPS output without missile implants. That should be more than enough for most if not all missions. Some people might prefer to swap the SPR for a PDS for less DPS tank and more buffer but I prefer to have a little faster shield recharge.
The idea being with that EHP and high DPS output you kill enough rats until the 200dps is enough to keep you alive then the SPR puts your shields back up ready for the next area. Most missions don't even need the 200dps tank the buffer is more then enough.
I'm tempted to say that would work, well on most gurista missions at least.
in missions I would expect the shields to stay between 30% and 60% most of the time.
dunno how well it would work on missions with sustained dps, especially em/therm heavy missions.
would much rather have that 300+ active tank, especially for the same slot use. You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 10:22:00 -
[17]
Sturmwolke said " No Pottsey, you can't. Flying with folks that run Ravens isn't quite the same as using a Raven yourself." Seeing someone run a mission with a Raven proves the Raven can do it even if I am not the pilot. I don't need to fly the ship myself to see it working.
Sturmwolke said " Massaging your figures with the ganglinks and implants, while it makes the numbers looks nice, ultimate fails when applied to many L4 missions with med-high dps" I didn't add in ganglinks but I did add in implants. What level 4 mission runner doesn't use some sort of tank and damage implants?
Sturmwolke said " It's been tested and proven - see link. The tank setup is greater that what you'd posted above," Did you sit still or move to reduce damage? Did you fit the passive tank implants? Did you aggro groups one at a time? What are you passive shield tank skills like? Perhaps the mission types play a role as I mostly do Serp missions.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2009.10.04 10:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Pottsey bla bla bla
The point(s) is already apparent, you're just running the strawman. I cba to reply to your inane rebuttals ..... again.
cheerio! |
SpaceOddis
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Posted - 2009.10.04 11:32:00 -
[19]
Edited by: SpaceOddis on 04/10/2009 11:32:37 Shields: 1x shield power relay II 1x large shield extender 3x large core defence field purger I 3x specific hardeners
At peak against guristas: 290 tankable dps. NO CAP USAGE.
Offence: 4x ballistic control system ii 2x PWNAGE
588 DPS (with drones and arbalest cruises), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.) 946 DPS (with drones and arbalest sieges), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.)
Hits BSes well. BCs too. Cruisers +/-. Drones are hammers and hobgoblins for cruisers & frigs.
Is that THAT bad? warpin, quickly melt BSes and thats it. Works for me every time. If i have problems tanking, just add SPR or LSE instead of PANAGE.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.04 13:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SpaceOddis Edited by: SpaceOddis on 04/10/2009 11:32:37 Shields: 1x shield power relay II 1x large shield extender 3x large core defence field purger I 3x specific hardeners
At peak against guristas: 290 tankable dps. NO CAP USAGE.
Offence: 4x ballistic control system ii 2x PWNAGE
588 DPS (with drones and arbalest cruises), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.) 946 DPS (with drones and arbalest sieges), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.)
Hits BSes well. BCs too. Cruisers +/-. Drones are hammers and hobgoblins for cruisers & frigs.
Is that THAT bad? warpin, quickly melt BSes and thats it. Works for me every time. If i have problems tanking, just add SPR or LSE instead of PANAGE.
your damage output is for a standard raven. the tankable dps you quote is for a navy raven.
a regular raven using your fit tanks 210 dps. (using 2 kin, 1 thermal hardeners, and a 70/30 kin/thermal dmg profile.) that's marginal -at best- for level 4's.
not that it's an issue, but since you capitalized "NO CAP USAGE", exactly what does power your active harderners ?
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Builder Robert
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Posted - 2009.10.04 13:35:00 -
[21]
The real question is why would you try passive tanking on a ship that clearly wasn't designed for it when it performs better with an active tank? A 30 day old character can fit a (albeit weak) stable LSB/amp raven while being cap stable and for most L4s you don't even need to be cap stable to kill things without warping out.
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Jerera
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.04 13:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Builder Robert The real question is why would you try passive tanking on a ship that clearly wasn't designed for it when it performs better with an active tank? A 30 day old character can fit a (albeit weak) stable LSB/amp raven while being cap stable and for most L4s you don't even need to be cap stable to kill things without warping out.
For fun ? But yeah, you are obviously interested in my post because you're now reading my signature. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 13:50:00 -
[23]
Sturmwolke said "The point(s) is already apparent, you're just running the strawman. I cba to reply to your inane rebuttals ..... again. cheerio!" I am not running a strawman. It's very clear I am not as others have tried my method and said it works. Whenever you are proven wrong or asked to backup what you said you just come out with rubbish like cba to replay then you add something silly like "running the strawman". That's hardly a valid argument to prove me wrong and its not the first time you have done this.
The only inane rebuttls are yours. Why don't you try proving your point with facts for a change over inane rebuttls.
Builder Robert said " The real question is why would you try passive tanking on a ship that clearly wasn't designed for it when it performs better with an active tank?" If your other ships are passive tanked, skill focus is passive tank and implants along with passive tank modules in your hanger. Then why not passive tank?
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.04 13:57:00 -
[24]
The only way passive regen/buffer tanks work is by fitting oversized extenders, frigs use MSE and cruiser/BC use LSE. As there are no XL-SE you can not crank up your hp enough to make it a viable regen tank. The raven just isn't meant to be passive tanked (in PVE) but people seem unable to understand that as they all have been using the crutch called Drake.
Whether it's possible to buffer/regen tank a Raven to do certain lvl 4's is not important nor is "for fun" a decent argument; you're doing missions... in a passive tanked ship. Pound for pound the Raven performs better with an active tank with a minimal use of slots, what more is there to discuss?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.10.04 13:59:00 -
[25]
[Raven, passive] Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Large Shield Extender II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Assume Guristas damage profile - 25% thermal, 75% kinetic. Tanks 222 DPS at peak recharge. Compare with:
[Raven, active] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Tanks more, 234 DPS, throughout all shield HP, has three rig slots free for CCCs or Rigours. More efficient. Better.
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Hooded Hauler
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Posted - 2009.10.04 14:40:00 -
[26]
zomg L2quote
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.04 15:57:00 -
[27]
Gypsio III you just compared a basic T2 passive tank against a faction active tank. That and I prefer a 222dps tank with a bigger buffer over a 234 dps tank and smaller buffer.
Faction active tank Ravens do tank better then passive tank Ravens. But I still say it doesnt matter which has the more efficient tank, both tank ok and both run missions well.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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SpaceOddis
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Posted - 2009.10.04 16:05:00 -
[28]
wow, a person has not done any missions in raven if he/she says that active resistance hardeners use considerable amount of cap . Active shield hardeners == almost passive.
my fit is stable at 69% with perfect skills, ant 47 minutes without skills! TAlking about neuts: well you are a mission running noob if that is a problem for you
ive done missions in passive raven. Works perfectly well, damage output is also very good.
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Builder Robert
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Posted - 2009.10.04 16:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pottsey Gypsio III you just compared a basic T2 passive tank against a faction active tank. That and I prefer a 222dps tank with a bigger buffer over a 234 dps tank and smaller buffer.
Faction active tank Ravens do tank better then passive tank Ravens. But I still say it doesnt matter which has the more efficient tank, both tank ok and both run missions well.
It is using a 50 mil SMALL shield booster, you could easily substitute that for a T2 large or X-large booster and while it may not permarun it will give a better tank.
Aren't you the same guy who has both charisma learning skills at level 5?
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2009.10.04 16:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pottsey .. chatter chatter ...
Pottsey, did you say something? My apologies, I missed it. Just in case you've missed it, let me re-iterate for the upteenth time (because you're a very special person), the point has already been made.
A passive buffer Raven will never equal an active Raven in terms of mission completion time when you consider 100% L4 missions across various Angel, Serpentis, Mercs, EOM, Drones, Blood, Sansha and Empire factions. This is not a debate whether it will work, thus I quote myself "Not applicable to the Raven, unless you want to make your life difficult."
If you decide to pursue and argue about the above paragraph, the burden of proof lies with yourself. I don't like putting figures to the percentage amount of active Ravens running L4 missions out there (since you'll get yourself worked up over that too), let's just say a "vast" majority? Now, why do I have to prove the theory on what the "vast" majority is doing?
Have you taken your medications yet Pottsey?
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