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Active vs Pasive Shield Tanking in a Raven

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Octa Butler	Posted - 2009.10.04 06:53:00 - [1] I'm currently trying to decide where to go next in my missioning. That's right the context of this question is completely PvE. Right now I'm in a Drake, and I love its tank. Its passive, no shield boosts at all, just 2-3 hardeners and extenders. What I don't like is the DPS, since I have not gone t2, and I'm too cheap for heavy arby launchers. So I'm trying to decide whether to stay with the drake or train up the raven. Almost every Raven fit I've come across is an active fit with a xl boost and an amp, plus all the cap modules that go with it. So my basic question for this thread comes down to passive shield tanking in the Raven. Why not do it? The added sig radius and the lower speed is the only reason I can come up with not to. But is that really gonna end up squishing me? EFT show my Raven at about 20k more shield(~86k) than the Drake, resists are comparable. I'm leaning right now with the Drake if I need to do active tanking in the Raven, with t2 launchers and t2 ammo, I get much better DPS.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.04 06:56:00 - [2] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 04/10/2009 06:56:39 The Raven is a far superior mission runner - but fly what you like. :) -Liang Ed: Passive shield tanking a Raven is pretty fail - it has good hp but lacks recharge. Look to the Rattlesnake for that. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 07:29:00 - [3] Passive tanking a Raven is not fail it works perfectly well and has no problem running missions just as fast as the active tank. Both active tanking and passive tanking work so just choose which ever is your preferred method. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.04 07:31:00 - [4] Originally by: Pottsey Passive tanking a Raven is not fail it works perfectly well and has no problem running missions just as fast as the active tank. Both active tanking and passive tanking work so just choose which ever is your preferred method. I don't give a **** what your fit is, it doesn't run missions as fast as an active tank. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.04 07:34:00 - [5] Unless you feel like fitting deadspace gear, your standard run-of-the-mill Raven just isn't going to cut it. It doesn't have superior DPS potential if you want a solid tank, and it has serious locking speed and velocity issues. For practical purposes, the only way to get superior performance is a Nighthawk or a CNR. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.04 07:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Allen Ramses Unless you feel like fitting deadspace gear, your standard run-of-the-mill Raven just isn't going to cut it. It doesn't have superior DPS potential if you want a solid tank, and it has serious locking speed and velocity issues. For practical purposes, the only way to get superior performance is a Nighthawk or a CNR. Comments: - Locking speed generally isn't an issue if you manage the mission right. There's always something locked and ready to shoot. Saves what, 2-3 seconds at the very beginning of the mission? - Velocity isn't an issue in the overwhelming majority of missions. - Kinetic bonuses are weak. If your enemy isn't vulnerable to kin, a Raven is a better choice I mean, yes, CNR > Golem > NH > Raven > Drake (in mission completion times - Golem is in a world of its own for solo isk making). -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 07:45:00 - [7] Liang Nuren said" I don't give a ****** what your fit is, it doesn't run missions as fast as an active tank." How can it not run just as fast when it can do the same DPS output and fit just as many none tanking modules? It might come out with a weaker tank DPS tank with a bigger buffer but still more than enough tank to do the mission. So it can run just as fast as most if not all active tank setups. Who cares which tank is better when both can tank the mission ok and both run the mission at the same speed. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.04 07:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Pottsey It might come out with a weaker tank DPS tank with a bigger buffer but still more than enough tank to do the mission. Say that again after doing Silence the Informant or Stop the Thief. Either of those can melt through even the biggest buffer before you could kill enough DPS to even it out... Unless you're using faction/deadspace gear, of course. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 08:00:00 - [9] Allen Ramses said " Say that again after doing Silence the Informant or Stop the Thief. Either of those can melt through even the biggest buffer before you could kill enough DPS to even it out... Unless you're using faction/deadspace gear, of course." Never had a problem myself with both a buffer and DPS tank on those missions on other ships, so why would the Raven be any different? I find 60k to 100k+ EHP buffer with about 150dps to 300dps+ (tank dps) is normally enough as long as your output DPS is 700+. Well as long as you're sensible and don't go and get aggro from every single group at the same time in every mission. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.04 08:32:00 - [10] How would you go about passive tanking a Raven? need most of the lows for BCUs, need the rigs for Rigors so you can actually apply dps, that doesn't exactly leave much room for shield recharging....
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.04 08:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Pottsey Allen Ramses said " Say that again after doing Silence the Informant or Stop the Thief. Either of those can melt through even the biggest buffer before you could kill enough DPS to even it out... Unless you're using faction/deadspace gear, of course." Never had a problem myself with both a buffer and DPS tank on those missions on other ships, so why would the Raven be any different? I find 60k to 100k+ EHP buffer with about 150dps to 300dps+ (tank dps) is normally enough as long as your output DPS is 700+. Well as long as you're sensible and don't go and get aggro from every single group at the same time in every mission. if you wouldn't mind filling in the empty slots on this cnr for the working passive tank I would love you for that, I even gave you a cnr for extra shielding. and if that isn't the base fit you probably aren't doing the missions as fast [Raven Navy Issue, CNR] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System [empty low slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.04 08:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Von Kapiche How would you go about passive tanking a Raven? need most of the lows for BCUs, need the rigs for Rigors so you can actually apply dps, that doesn't exactly leave much room for shield recharging.... Buffer tanked with 2-3 LSE, 3 BCS, DC and PDS. We've been already over this. Root cause : Pottsey being unable to distinguish between a Kronos and a Raven, as per OP.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 09:04:00 - [13] Sturmwolke said " Root cause : Pottsey being unable to distinguish between a Kronos and a Raven, as per OP." I can distinguish I can also see how they are similar. Yes I fly a Kronos but the people I fly with have Ravens. The theory works on any battleship and the only real difference between a Raven or Kronos for my theory is 700+dps with missiles or 700+dps with railguns. Well I perfer to use tanking rigs on both ships as well. Manu Hermanus said " and if that isn't the base fit you probably aren't doing the missions as fast" That's pretty close base fit to my build. There are many variations you could use based on preference. I would try something like [Raven Navy Issue,] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Shield Power Relay II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Large Shield Extender II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Whatever your preference is. Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I With shield implants that over 200dps tank with 140 EHP buffer more if you're in a gang and 646 DPS output without missile implants. That should be more than enough for most if not all missions. Some people might prefer to swap the SPR for a PDS for less DPS tank and more buffer but I prefer to have a little faster shield recharge. The idea being with that EHP and high DPS output you kill enough rats until the 200dps is enough to keep you alive then the SPR puts your shields back up ready for the next area. Most missions don't even need the 200dps tank the buffer is more then enough. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.04 09:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Pottsey I can distinguish I can also see how they are similar. Yes I fly a Kronos but the people I fly with have Ravens. The theory works on any battleship and the only real difference between a Raven or Kronos for my theory is 700+dps with missiles or 700+dps with railguns. Well I perfer to use tanking rigs on both ships as well. No Pottsey, you can't. Flying with folks that run Ravens isn't quite the same as using a Raven yourself. Massaging your figures with the ganglinks and implants, while it makes the numbers looks nice, ultimate fails when applied to many L4 missions with med-high dps - you still need to warp out at least once. It's been tested and proven - see link. The tank setup is greater that what you'd posted above, the lack of rigor rigs are irrelevant to BSes. The dps gap difference between the (rail) Kronos vs Raven is 160dps at maxed skill with standard T1 ammo. In the practical sense, the gap is much greater due the the numerous low skill newbies in Ravens vs the pros in Kronoses. That being said, a blaster Kronos outdps the Raven by over 100% if fitted for close combat missions. Originally by: Pottsey The idea being with that EHP and high DPS output you kill enough rats until the 200dps is enough to keep you alive then the SPR puts your shields back up ready for the next area. Most missions don't even need the 200dps tank the buffer is more then enough. Not applicable to the Raven, unless you want to make your life difficult.
Lucia Wilber King's Pride Manufacturing Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.04 09:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Pottsey Passive tanking a Raven is not fail it works perfectly well and has no problem running missions just as fast as the active tank. Both active tanking and passive tanking work so just choose which ever is your preferred method. I don't give a ****** what your fit is, it doesn't run missions as fast as an active tank. -Liang Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but as long as you survive the mission in once piece, does your tank really have a damn thing to do with how fast you actually complete the missions? That being said, doesn't a passive tank setup require a lot more low slots (for shield relays), and thus leave less room for BCUs? I mean, I would imagine that a passive Raven would have less DPS than an active one if for no other reason than having to dedicate more low slots to non-DPS modules, but obviously since I don't fly Caldari ships, I'm no expert on the matter. Funnily enough, my friends and I once built an armor-tanking Raven that could run level 4s. That was a pretty entertaining fail-fit...though it DID work.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.04 10:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Pottsey Manu Hermanus said " and if that isn't the base fit you probably aren't doing the missions as fast" That's pretty close base fit to my build. There are many variations you could use based on preference. I would try something like With shield implants that over 200dps tank with 140 EHP buffer more if you're in a gang and 646 DPS output without missile implants. That should be more than enough for most if not all missions. Some people might prefer to swap the SPR for a PDS for less DPS tank and more buffer but I prefer to have a little faster shield recharge. The idea being with that EHP and high DPS output you kill enough rats until the 200dps is enough to keep you alive then the SPR puts your shields back up ready for the next area. Most missions don't even need the 200dps tank the buffer is more then enough. I'm tempted to say that would work, well on most gurista missions at least. in missions I would expect the shields to stay between 30% and 60% most of the time. dunno how well it would work on missions with sustained dps, especially em/therm heavy missions. would much rather have that 300+ active tank, especially for the same slot use. You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 10:22:00 - [17] Sturmwolke said " No Pottsey, you can't. Flying with folks that run Ravens isn't quite the same as using a Raven yourself." Seeing someone run a mission with a Raven proves the Raven can do it even if I am not the pilot. I don't need to fly the ship myself to see it working. Sturmwolke said " Massaging your figures with the ganglinks and implants, while it makes the numbers looks nice, ultimate fails when applied to many L4 missions with med-high dps" I didn't add in ganglinks but I did add in implants. What level 4 mission runner doesn't use some sort of tank and damage implants? Sturmwolke said " It's been tested and proven - see link. The tank setup is greater that what you'd posted above," Did you sit still or move to reduce damage? Did you fit the passive tank implants? Did you aggro groups one at a time? What are you passive shield tank skills like? Perhaps the mission types play a role as I mostly do Serp missions. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.04 10:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Pottsey bla bla bla The point(s) is already apparent, you're just running the strawman. I cba to reply to your inane rebuttals ..... again. cheerio!
SpaceOddis	Posted - 2009.10.04 11:32:00 - [19] Edited by: SpaceOddis on 04/10/2009 11:32:37 Shields: 1x shield power relay II 1x large shield extender 3x large core defence field purger I 3x specific hardeners At peak against guristas: 290 tankable dps. NO CAP USAGE. Offence: 4x ballistic control system ii 2x PWNAGE 588 DPS (with drones and arbalest cruises), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.) 946 DPS (with drones and arbalest sieges), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.) Hits BSes well. BCs too. Cruisers +/-. Drones are hammers and hobgoblins for cruisers & frigs. Is that THAT bad? warpin, quickly melt BSes and thats it. Works for me every time. If i have problems tanking, just add SPR or LSE instead of PANAGE.
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.04 13:24:00 - [20] Originally by: SpaceOddis Edited by: SpaceOddis on 04/10/2009 11:32:37 Shields: 1x shield power relay II 1x large shield extender 3x large core defence field purger I 3x specific hardeners At peak against guristas: 290 tankable dps. NO CAP USAGE. Offence: 4x ballistic control system ii 2x PWNAGE 588 DPS (with drones and arbalest cruises), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.) 946 DPS (with drones and arbalest sieges), t1 ammo (with maxed skills.) Hits BSes well. BCs too. Cruisers +/-. Drones are hammers and hobgoblins for cruisers & frigs. Is that THAT bad? warpin, quickly melt BSes and thats it. Works for me every time. If i have problems tanking, just add SPR or LSE instead of PANAGE. your damage output is for a standard raven. the tankable dps you quote is for a navy raven. a regular raven using your fit tanks 210 dps. (using 2 kin, 1 thermal hardeners, and a 70/30 kin/thermal dmg profile.) that's marginal -at best- for level 4's. not that it's an issue, but since you capitalized "NO CAP USAGE", exactly what does power your active harderners ?
Builder Robert	Posted - 2009.10.04 13:35:00 - [21] The real question is why would you try passive tanking on a ship that clearly wasn't designed for it when it performs better with an active tank? A 30 day old character can fit a (albeit weak) stable LSB/amp raven while being cap stable and for most L4s you don't even need to be cap stable to kill things without warping out.
Jerera Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.04 13:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Builder Robert The real question is why would you try passive tanking on a ship that clearly wasn't designed for it when it performs better with an active tank? A 30 day old character can fit a (albeit weak) stable LSB/amp raven while being cap stable and for most L4s you don't even need to be cap stable to kill things without warping out. For fun ? But yeah, you are obviously interested in my post because you're now reading my signature.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 13:50:00 - [23] Sturmwolke said "The point(s) is already apparent, you're just running the strawman. I cba to reply to your inane rebuttals ..... again. cheerio!" I am not running a strawman. It's very clear I am not as others have tried my method and said it works. Whenever you are proven wrong or asked to backup what you said you just come out with rubbish like cba to replay then you add something silly like "running the strawman". That's hardly a valid argument to prove me wrong and its not the first time you have done this. The only inane rebuttls are yours. Why don't you try proving your point with facts for a change over inane rebuttls. Builder Robert said " The real question is why would you try passive tanking on a ship that clearly wasn't designed for it when it performs better with an active tank?" If your other ships are passive tanked, skill focus is passive tank and implants along with passive tank modules in your hanger. Then why not passive tank? ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.04 13:57:00 - [24] The only way passive regen/buffer tanks work is by fitting oversized extenders, frigs use MSE and cruiser/BC use LSE. As there are no XL-SE you can not crank up your hp enough to make it a viable regen tank. The raven just isn't meant to be passive tanked (in PVE) but people seem unable to understand that as they all have been using the crutch called Drake. Whether it's possible to buffer/regen tank a Raven to do certain lvl 4's is not important nor is "for fun" a decent argument; you're doing missions... in a passive tanked ship. Pound for pound the Raven performs better with an active tank with a minimal use of slots, what more is there to discuss?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.10.04 13:59:00 - [25] [Raven, passive] Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Large Shield Extender II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I Assume Guristas damage profile - 25% thermal, 75% kinetic. Tanks 222 DPS at peak recharge. Compare with: [Raven, active] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Tanks more, 234 DPS, throughout all shield HP, has three rig slots free for CCCs or Rigours. More efficient. Better.
Hooded Hauler	Posted - 2009.10.04 14:40:00 - [26] zomg L2quote
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 15:57:00 - [27] Gypsio III you just compared a basic T2 passive tank against a faction active tank. That and I prefer a 222dps tank with a bigger buffer over a 234 dps tank and smaller buffer. Faction active tank Ravens do tank better then passive tank Ravens. But I still say it doesnt matter which has the more efficient tank, both tank ok and both run missions well. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
SpaceOddis	Posted - 2009.10.04 16:05:00 - [28] wow, a person has not done any missions in raven if he/she says that active resistance hardeners use considerable amount of cap . Active shield hardeners == almost passive. my fit is stable at 69% with perfect skills, ant 47 minutes without skills! TAlking about neuts: well you are a mission running noob if that is a problem for you ive done missions in passive raven. Works perfectly well, damage output is also very good.
Builder Robert	Posted - 2009.10.04 16:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Pottsey Gypsio III you just compared a basic T2 passive tank against a faction active tank. That and I prefer a 222dps tank with a bigger buffer over a 234 dps tank and smaller buffer. Faction active tank Ravens do tank better then passive tank Ravens. But I still say it doesnt matter which has the more efficient tank, both tank ok and both run missions well. It is using a 50 mil SMALL shield booster, you could easily substitute that for a T2 large or X-large booster and while it may not permarun it will give a better tank. Aren't you the same guy who has both charisma learning skills at level 5?
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.04 16:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Pottsey .. chatter chatter ... Pottsey, did you say something? My apologies, I missed it. Just in case you've missed it, let me re-iterate for the upteenth time (because you're a very special person), the point has already been made. A passive buffer Raven will never equal an active Raven in terms of mission completion time when you consider 100% L4 missions across various Angel, Serpentis, Mercs, EOM, Drones, Blood, Sansha and Empire factions. This is not a debate whether it will work, thus I quote myself "Not applicable to the Raven, unless you want to make your life difficult." If you decide to pursue and argue about the above paragraph, the burden of proof lies with yourself. I don't like putting figures to the percentage amount of active Ravens running L4 missions out there (since you'll get yourself worked up over that too), let's just say a "vast" majority? Now, why do I have to prove the theory on what the "vast" majority is doing? Have you taken your medications yet Pottsey?
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.04 16:55:00 - [31] Edited by: Von Kapiche on 04/10/2009 17:00:49 What the hell is the point, on a Raven? what else are you going to do with your cap than shield boost with it? you're still not even neut-proof, your hardeners die & you have no cap booster to switch them on again either. I wouldn't call pottsey's fit a passive tank anyway, it's a buffer tank with something to speed up regen post-fight; it's not relying on passive regen to overcome dps, it's relying on lasting long enough. My standard raven's 3 hardeners-xlsb-cap injector tank passive tanks most of the time anyway until there's a more difficult spot, and then... I have more tank, and it's not taken up any more slots!
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.04 17:24:00 - [32] I used passive Torp Ravens for ratting, but that's a diff story. I am not much of a L4 runner: I doubt I've run more than a 100 of them across 3 years and 2 chars. Raven can do wonders with active tank - it's tried and normalized for a reason. You can play around with passive, sure, but u waste more slots for the same result more or less IMHO. You could always stay with the Drake and spec for BCs and HMLs until you reach the skills for a NH, so that u keep on your passive tank while increasing your DPS... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Octa Butler	Posted - 2009.10.04 18:47:00 - [33] Originally by: Lucia Wilber Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but as long as you survive the mission in once piece, does your tank really have a damn thing to do with how fast you actually complete the missions? That being said, doesn't a passive tank setup require a lot more low slots (for shield relays), and thus leave less room for BCUs? I mean, I would imagine that a passive Raven would have less DPS than an active one if for no other reason than having to dedicate more low slots to non-DPS modules, but obviously since I don't fly Caldari ships, I'm no expert on the matter. Funnily enough, my friends and I once built an armor-tanking Raven that could run level 4s. That was a pretty entertaining fail-fit...though it DID work. I believe the same thing. If it survives the mission w/o going into armor, I'm happy. I don't need style points from the judges on this. The problem with the active tank is it also needs low slots. At least with a passive tank, I have a free rig slot to use for DPS. And I'm not going for cap stable, but I'd like a cap to last longer than 1 minute. Looking at it again and thinking about it, I'm going to go for t2 heavies on the drake, and after that work on t2 cruise missiles, and then once I can use em, then fit an active raven.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.04 18:58:00 - [34] Originally by: Octa Butler Looking at it again and thinking about it, I'm going to go for t2 heavies on the drake, and after that work on t2 cruise missiles, and then once I can use em, then fit an active raven. That is a very sound training plan. As a bonus, it gives you better skills for kicking ass in PVP. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 20:47:00 - [35] Edited by: Pottsey on 04/10/2009 20:51:25 Sturmwolke said "Now, why do I have to prove the theory on what the "vast" majority is doing? " Funny you say "Have you taken your medications yet Pottsey?" and then come out with rubbish like that. Did you even think about what you wrote? No one asked you to prove a theory on what the vast majority are doing. The vast majority active tanking has nothing to do with passive tanking working or not. Active tanking more so with faction gear does tank stronger on the Raven then passive tanking. That and before some passice tanking changes people traditionally active tanked and even when passive tanking started to work most people just kept doing what they traditionally did. After all if you have implants, modules and skill focus on active tanking there is no reason to swap to passive tanking on a Raven. But if all your implants, modules and skills are focused on passive tanking and you have poor or no active tanking skills it makes sense to passive tank the Raven. Sturmwolke said "If you decide to pursue and argue about the above paragraph, the burden of proof lies with yourself." So how am I meant to proof it when you just say cba everything you see proof you don't like? If you think me and the others are wrong the burden of proof is on you. In actual fact is doesn't matter what you think, as me and many others will keep passive tanking. So you can tell us we are wrong as much as you want while we can keep running missions fast without problems. I am not arguing which tanking method is better I am arguing that both work well. Which is something you seem to struggle to understand. Sturmwolke said "A passive buffer Raven will never equal an active Raven in terms of mission completion time" You have been proven wrong on that lots of time. Stop ignoring all the people who say they run missions without a problem as a passive tank just as fast as the active tank. Stop ignoring all the setups posted that have the same DPS output and mission completion time as the active tank. Sure the active tank might tank more but it doesn't complete the mission faster. When the passive tank is not warping out and has the same DPS output as the active tank its mission completing time is not slower. You have not shown one example of the active tank running missions faster. You have shown stronger active tanks but stronger tanks don't make you run the mission faster. Well you did show one test which the active tank ran missions faster as the passive tank had to warp out. But you refused to answer basic questions on the testing. We have no way to know if your test was fair and the way you avoided basic questions on the test suggests you rigged it so passive tanks had to warp out and run missions slower. Why else would you avoid fair questions? Your test also goes against what everyone else says about their own experience flying passive tanks. Sturmwolke said "I don't like putting figures to the percentage amount of active Ravens running L4 missions out there (since you'll get yourself worked up over that too" Why would I get all worked up about 85% or 95% or whatever it is of Ravens are running active tanks for missions? Just because most people use one method it doesn't mean other methods don't work well. Traditionally people active tank Ravens as it used to be the only method that worked. That and with faction gear it is a stronger tank. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 20:57:00 - [36] Sturmwolke said " This is not a debate whether it will work, thus I quote myself "Not applicable to the Raven, unless you want to make your life difficult." So you say it makes life difficult without explaining how it makes life difficult and all other arguments are suddenly invalid. Yet you say it's me making inane comments. If you are tanking without problems and running missions as fast as the active tank how is it making life difficult? It's about time you faced the facts, a number of us passive tank battleships without tanking problems and do missions fast. It doesn't matter if you passive or active tank both work well it all down to personally preference. Sturmwolke said "If you decide to pursue and argue about the above paragraph, the burden of proof lies with yourself." So how am I meant to proof it when you just say cba with a silly comment everything you see proof you don't like? If you think me and the others are wrong the burden of proof is on you. In actual fact is doesn't matter what you think, as me and many others will keep passive tanking. So you can tell us we are wrong as much as you want while we can keep running missions fast without problems. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Ilatius	Posted - 2009.10.04 21:05:00 - [37] Pottsey while I love the theory behind your setups, and while you did help me a lot as a newbie I have to say you're wrong on this. Your numbers, while seeming good on paper don't apply in real situations very well. Yes a passive tank can do a good number of missions, but then you get to something like the angel extravaganza bonus room, and that setup will get wrecked. An active tank can have amazing tank, and a 200dps buffer tank simply wont cut it on some missions. You also forget that people don't have max, or even very good skills at times. Some may need that spare low for fitting mods, they may not have maxed recharge skills, or money for very good implants. That's the nice thing about active tanks, they adapt to your skill set, and although you get better performance out of them with better skills, you don't need them to use the fit. You also seem to assume that everyone does missions the same way you do. But in reality people pull agro badly, and they get multiple spawns at time. And while you seem to think that both setups have to warp out it's not true. If an spawn does 800 dps, a 700 dps active tank will live through it without warping out much easier than a 200 dps passive will, unless you have 3-4x the EHP of the active tank (which you don't). Cheers.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.04 21:26:00 - [38] I never had a problem with angel extravaganza bonus room as long as I moved away from the star base to start with. Then killed the smallest fastest ships first moving up to the slowest biggest ships last. I do agree with low skills active tanking works better and if you pull aggro badly you want a decent 650dps tank. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Ilatius	Posted - 2009.10.04 21:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Pottsey I never had a problem with angel extravaganza bonus room as long as I moved away from the star base to start with. Then killed the smallest fastest ships first moving up to the slowest biggest ships last. I do agree with low skills active tanking works better and if you pull aggro badly you want a decent 650dps tank. And there is where you've missed out by not playing with a Raven. Missiles do not kill small ships fast. Something like a torp raven will more or less have to rely on only drones to take down some frigs. Especially elite frigs. And even drones can take a long time sometimes. I do just as well as your Kronos in my Paladin. I can instant pop most smaller ships before they get close, but that's not an option for some missile boats.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.04 22:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Pottsey I never had a problem with angel extravaganza bonus room as long as I moved away from the star base to start with. Then killed the smallest fastest ships first moving up to the slowest biggest ships last. I do agree with low skills active tanking works better and if you pull aggro badly you want a decent 650dps tank. The problem is that an active tank doesn't have to run away or warp out. Your passive tank Raven will not mission as fast as an active tanked Raven. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.04 23:42:00 - [41] Originally by: Octa Butler I believe the same thing. If it survives the mission w/o going into armor, I'm happy. I don't need style points from the judges on this. The problem with the active tank is it also needs low slots. At least with a passive tank, I have a free rig slot to use for DPS. And I'm not going for cap stable, but I'd like a cap to last longer than 1 minute. Looking at it again and thinking about it, I'm going to go for t2 heavies on the drake, and after that work on t2 cruise missiles, and then once I can use em, then fit an active raven. excuse me but what does an active tank need its low slots for? (ps any answers but 4x bcus + 1 whatever are wrong) and yes if it can survive in one piece all is fine (well unless it sacrifices damage output to do so), the doubt here is if it can do that or not. and tech 2 heavy missiles are nice to have. You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Allen Ramses Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.05 00:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Manu Hermanus excuse me but what does an active tank need its low slots for? (ps any answers but 4x bcus + 1 whatever are wrong) 3x BCUs, PDU, and suitcase. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.05 00:36:00 - [43] Originally by: Allen Ramses 3x BCUs, PDU, and suitcase. 4x BCU, Damage Control. PDUs are for wimps. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.05 00:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Manu Hermanus excuse me but what does an active tank need its low slots for? (ps any answers but 4x bcus + 1 whatever are wrong) 3x BCUs, PDU, and suitcase. hmm whats the pdu for You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.05 03:26:00 - [45] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 05/10/2009 03:33:17 Originally by: Pottsey and then come out with rubbish like that. Did you even think about what you wrote? No one asked you to prove a theory on what the vast majority are doing. You did Miss Pottsey. Post #23. With that it view, in regards to your post #3 and #7, please provide your proof that the Raven buffer setup survives 100% i.e ALL L4 missions without a warp out or multiple warp outs (which slows the missioning down) when compared to an active tanked (cap boosted) setup. The key here is to prove that a buffer setup warps out less than an active setup, and not take 100% L4 to its literal end (for the semantics nitpicker). Originally by: Pottsey But if all your implants, modules and skills are focused on passive tanking and you have poor or no active tanking skills it makes sense to passive tank the Raven. Energy System Operations 1, Shield Operation 2 takes a few minutes training. Adequate levels can be achieved in a few hours. The only implant that affects an active shield tank directly is the +3 Crystals set. Not worth it if you're running on a set of +5. Other implants which affects the shield tank indirectly are not really necessary for active tanks. TL;DR - Training for adequate active shield tank takes less than a few hours. No implants needed. Your arguments on skill are nonsensical ... and thus inane. Originally by: Pottsey So how am I meant to proof it when you just say cba everything you see proof you don't like? If you think me and the others are wrong the burden of proof is on you. In actual fact is doesn't matter what you think, as me and many others will keep passive tanking. So you can tell us we are wrong as much as you want while we can keep running missions fast without problems. There is a difference between relaying accurate information and inane ramblings of a person who don't have an idea on the cycle time of a large shield booster and dps differences between a Raven vs Kronos, coming into the discussion professing expertise on a shield tanked Raven. Well, you go on ahead dear. Run a long now Originally by: Pottsey I am not arguing which tanking method is better I am arguing that both work well. Which is something you seem to struggle to understand. You're omitting one very important information from that. Take a guess. Originally by: Pottsey (1.) You have been proven wrong on that lots of time. Stop ignoring all the people who say they run missions without a problem as a passive tank just as fast as the active tank. Stop ignoring all the setups posted that have the same DPS output and mission completion time as the active tank. (2.) Sure the active tank might tank more but it doesn't complete the mission faster. (3.) When the passive tank is not warping out and has the same DPS output as the active tank its mission completing time is not slower. See the underlines above? (I learnt this from Liang) 1. No Pottsey. You've not been reading well and examined the mistakes you've made. 2. Lolwut? Say that again in details please. 3. Oh, you admit you need to warp out. Please elaborate on which L4 missions are these. /edit : syntax
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.05 03:32:00 - [46] Originally by: Pottsey You have not shown one example of the active tank running missions faster. You have shown stronger active tanks but stronger tanks don't make you run the mission faster. Well you did show one test which the active tank ran missions faster as the passive tank had to warp out. But you refused to answer basic questions on the testing. We have no way to know if your test was fair and the way you avoided basic questions on the test suggests you rigged it so passive tanks had to warp out and run missions slower. Why else would you avoid fair questions? Your test also goes against what everyone else says about their own experience flying passive tanks. Why don't you move your collective butts to Amarr and try running missions here. It's was not a fair question, it was a stupid question asked by person who did not pay attention ... aka inane. Originally by: Pottsey Why would I get all worked up about 85% or 95% or whatever it is of Ravens are running active tanks for missions? Just because most people use one method it doesn't mean other methods don't work well. Traditionally people active tank Ravens as it used to be the only method that worked. That and with faction gear it is a stronger tank. Because you're a very special person. Originally by: Pottsey So you say it makes life difficult without explaining how it makes life difficult and all other arguments are suddenly invalid. Yet you say it's me making inane comments. If you are tanking without problems and running missions as fast as the active tank how is it making life difficult? It's about time you faced the facts, a number of us passive tank battleships without tanking problems and do missions fast. It doesn't matter if you passive or active tank both work well it all down to personally preference. I take what I said above about the special person back. Sorry. I was wrong. You are a very very special person.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.05 07:00:00 - [47] Edited by: Pottsey on 05/10/2009 07:02:13 Sturmwolke said "Your arguments on skill are nonsensical ... and thus inane." There you go on about inane again. It's not possible to have a real argument with you. If someone has level 5 passive skills, 100mill+ on implants and modules it's no inane to passive tank a raven instead of buying a new set of implants, spending week+ on active skills and isk on modules. This thread is about the OP who comes from a passive tanking background. Sturmwolke said "There is a difference between relaying accurate information and inane ramblings of a person who don't have an idea on the cycle time of a large shield booster and dps differences between a Raven vs Kronos, coming into the discussion professing expertise on a shield tanked Raven. Well, you go on ahead dear. Run a long now " See there you go again. Instead of arguing about facts you pick on one mistake I made weeks ago when I was pretty ill. That's just trolling. So I made a mistake when I was ill and you know I was ill and I admitted it was a mistake. Yet you still have to go about it weeks later. Perhaps you think you are superhuman but I am human and I make mistakes more so when I ill. My good reputation proves I know what I am talking about when it comes to ships and setups and I don't do inane ramblings like you. There is little difference between a 650dps output Raven and 650dps output Kronos both with drones killing frigs and both with the same style of tank. They will both complete the mission at around about the same speed. Ok the weapon system works a little differently but when they tank in the same way and kill at the same speed when the DPS out is the same with both with T2 drones then you can compare them and use one for base in saying it saying the tanking theory works for both. Further backed up by seeing other pilots fly the other ship. Just because I spend most of my time in Gallente ships on my main it does not mean I know nothing about Caldari ships. My alt is trained in Caldari ships and missiles plus most of my friends fly Ravens. Sturmwolke said " 2. Lolwut? Say that again in details please." You like calling me a special person and you say that. If you tank well enough to not warp out then fitting a stronger tank is not going to make your mission completion time faster. Sturmwolke said " 3. Oh, you admit you need to warp out. Please elaborate on which L4 missions are these." I don't normally warp out on WC but I was trying to find out how low a tank I can go while upping effective DPS output. After running a number of missions without a single low slot on tanking and web in the mid slot I came across WC and the tank broke in the serp side. Which meant I completed the mission in what 45mins instead of 43mins? Big deal. (total guess at that time I didnt measure mission time). So I ran one mission out of 20 odd slower then an active tank. Which is what 0.01% slower over 20missions as a passive tank? Perhaps you care about 0.01% slower or 0.1% slower or but I dont. Sturmwolke said " Move your collective butts to Amarr and run missions here." I do, I have two home bases one with Gallente space and one in Amarr space. My current alts corp missions are all based in Amaar space the same alt that flys Caldari ships. Well mostly when I run in Amaar space I normally fight in gangs and I solo in Gallente space. But still never had tanking problems Amaar space. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.05 07:16:00 - [48] Sturmwolke said " It's was not a fair question, it was a stupid question asked by person who did not pay attention ... aka inane." Ok that proves it, your just trolling, why am I wasting time with you. Asking if your passive shield tanking test was done with low or high level passive skills is not inane. Asking if you sat still with a massive sig or moved to reduce damage is not inane. Asking if you used cheap passive tank implants that help is not inane. Asking if you did smart aggro or aggroing eveything is not inane. Think about it, if you had to warp out twice with low skills, no implants and not moving. It could well mean with better skills, implants and moving you wouldn't have to warp out. So it's not an inane question. That and with Tactical Shield Manipulation you don't need to warp out as soon as you did. Why waste all those hitpoints by warping out. You warped out with almost 1/4 of your hitpoints still intact. You're just trolling. I don't know why I am wasting any more time on you. Sturmwolke said " Because you're a very special person." Again more trolling. I have no problem with the fact most people active tank Ravens over passive. There is no need to call me a special person and say I might get upset at that fact. That's just trolling. Sturmwolke said " You did Miss Pottsey. Post #23" No I did not. post 23 was asking you to post facts for a change over inane rebuttls. I never asked you to prove a theory on what the vast majority are doing. You didn't need to ask why should I prove what the vast majority are doing. No one asked you so there is no reason for you to complain about being asked. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.05 07:47:00 - [49] Originally by: Pottsey There you go on about inane again. It's not possible to have a real argument with you. If someone has level 5 passive skills, 100mill+ on implants and modules it's no inane to passive tank a raven instead of buying a new set of implants, spending week+ on active skills and isk on modules. This thread is about the OP who comes from a passive tanking background Strawman, out of context. Did this sink into your conciousness when the strawman was mentioned before? Read the OP - "since I have not gone t2", "I'm too cheap for heavy arby launchers", "So my basic question for this thread comes down to passive shield tanking in the Raven. Why not do it?" Do bear in mind also, the OP's context is based on the Drake. That typically means a number of SPRs and Purger rigs. Without going into semantics, suffice to say, you failed at reading and ramble about a buffer tank without providing adequate supporting information as to its strength and weaknesses as per OP's question "WHY?" Originally by: Pottsey See there you go again. Instead of arguing about facts you pick on one mistake I made weeks ago when I was pretty ill. That's just trolling. So I made a mistake when I was ill and you know I was ill and I admitted it was a mistake. Yet you still have to go about it weeks later. Perhaps you think you are superhuman but I am human and I make mistakes more so when I ill. I'm sorry. I just recovered from an illness today. Please forgive me for quoting that mistake. Originally by: Pottsey My good reputation proves I know what I am talking about when it comes to ships and setups and I don't do inane ramblings like you. There is little difference between a 650dps output Raven and 650dps output Kronos both with drones killing frigs and both with the same style of tank. They will both complete the mission at around about the same speed. Ok the weapon system works a little differently but when they tank in the same way and kill at the same speed when the DPS out is the same with both with T2 drones then you can compare them and use one for base in saying it saying the tanking theory works for both. Further backed up by seeing other pilots fly the other ship. Well, my apologies Miss Pottsey, I don't have a reputation nearly as good as you. I am content in being nobody. I can't do math nearly quite as well as you do too. Your dps figures are astounding. I'm impressed, how did you arrive at those figures? Please be my teacher. Originally by: Pottsey You like calling me a special person and you say that. If you tank well enough to not warp out then fitting a stronger tank is not going to make your mission completion time faster. You are a very special person indeed to have come up with that statement Originally by: Pottsey I don't normally warp out on WC but I was trying to find out how low a tank I can go while upping effective DPS output.After running a number of missions without a single low slot on tanking and web in the mid slot I came across WC and the tank broke in the serp side. Which meant I completed the mission in what 45mins instead of 43mins? Big deal. To a very special person : Raven Originally by: Pottsey I do, I have two home bases one with Gallente space and one in Amarr space. My current alts corp missions are all based in Amaar space the same alt that flys Caldari ships. Well mostly when I run in Amaar space I normally fight in gangs and I solo in Gallente space. But still never had tanking problems Amaar To a very special person : Read the OP (again) and stick a post-it note onto your monitor that says "Raven"
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.05 08:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Pottsey Ok that proves it, your just trolling, why am I wasting time with you. Asking if your passive shield tanking test was done with low or high level passive skills is not inane. Asking if you sat still with a massive sig or moved to reduce damage is not inane. Asking if you used cheap passive tank implants that help is not inane. Asking if you did smart aggro or aggroing eveything is not inane. Whatever you say Originally by: Pottsey Think about it, if you had to warp out twice with low skills, no implants and not moving. It could well mean with better skills, implants and moving you wouldn't have to warp out. So it's not an inane question. That and with Tactical Shield Manipulation you don't need to warp out as soon as you did. Why waste all those hitpoints by warping out. You warped out with almost 1/4 of your hitpoints still intact. I'm still waiting to see your result in running a vanilla buffer Raven in Amarr space. And oh, don't bring the whole gang. The Amarr NPCs are very shy. Originally by: Pottsey You're just trolling. I don't know why I am wasting any more time on you. No I'm not. I just recovered from a recent illness. Humans makes mistakes you know. Originally by: Pottsey Again more trolling. I have no problem with the fact most people active tank Ravens over passive. There is no need to call me a special person and say I might get upset at that fact. That's just trolling. I'm so glad you're not upset. Originally by: Pottsey No I did not. post 23 was asking you to post facts for a change over inane rebuttls. I never asked you to prove a theory on what the vast majority are doing. You didn't need to ask why should I prove what the vast majority are doing. No one asked you so there is no reason for you to complain about being asked. Wait, let me quote you "Whenever you are proven wrong or asked to backup what you said you just come out with rubbish like cba to replay then you add something silly like "running the strawman" ". So, if you didn't ask me to post facts for a change, that means I'm right .. right?
Miranele	Posted - 2009.10.05 08:39:00 - [51] Active = More DPS Passive = Less DPS ( since you fill up ur lows with Shield Relays ) You kinda need 1 - 2 BCU's on a raven.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.05 11:46:00 - [52] Sturmwolke said ôDo bear in mind also, the OP's context is based on the Drake. That typically means a number of SPRs and Purger rigs.ö Without going into semantics, suffice to say, you failed at reading and ramble about a buffer tank?" Adequate strength and weaknesses have been posted. I am not talking about a pure buffer tank. I am talking HP regen DPS tank with a buffer, all the modules I fitted are to boost HP regen. I am talking about SPRÆs, Purgers and shield extenders all the same modules and rigs he would use on the Drake and already have the skills to use. Considering his lack of ISK, current skill set and current modules my setup is a good starting point for him. He can pretty much reuse his Drake modules and scale his tank up and down with the damage mods and SPRÆs until he earns some isk. My setup lets him earn isk for an active tank setup and he could use he setup while waiting for active tank skills to be trained. Sturmwolke said ôTo a very special person : Read the OP (again) and stick a post-it note onto your monitor that says "Raven"ö Remember I said one of my alts is in Amarr space the same alt who flyÆs Caldari ships and useÆs missiles as I said before. I am not talking about the Kronos. Sturmwolke said ôWhatever you sayö Anyone who is reasonable can see those questions I asked about your test are perfectly reasonable. The fact that you responded like did proves you are just here to cause trouble and troll. I am not wasting any more time on you after this post. You clearly have no interest in arguing with facts or discussing pro and cons on different tanking methods or even using real evidence to prove people wrong. All you seem to want to do is troll and post silly comments. Sturmwolke said ôNo I'm not. I just recovered from a recent illness. Humans makes mistakes you know.ô There is a difference between making mistakes and trolling. Just look at that mistake I made before. I asked you a question saying I was ill and could not think clearly so I wasnÆt sure what I said was correct and instead of correcting the mistake you just trolled instead. Now weeks later you have bought it up again. Sturmwolke said "Wait, let me quote you "Whenever you are proven wrong or asked to backup what you said you just come out with rubbish like cba to replay then you add something silly like "running the strawman" " So, if you didn't ask me to post facts for a change, that means I'm right .. right? ö Look at it as a whole. I asked you to post facts and stop posting silly things. You then came back and posted silly things like ôPottsey, did you say something?ö then you went on about ôNow, why do I have to prove the theory on what the "vast" majority is doing? ô when no one asked you to prove any theory on what the vast majority are doing. Clearly you are just here to cause trouble and trolling. I am not wasting any more time on you, not with your bad reputation of trolling so often. I know I skipped over a lot of your last two posts as most of its just trolling and your posts are just getting more and more childish ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Lars Lodar The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.10.05 12:25:00 - [53] You can perma run a large shield booster setup which is suitable for most lvl 4 missions. Make sure you use rat specific hardeners. [Raven, Raven PVE L-SB] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Capacitor Power Relay II Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier I Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 ----------------------------------------------- If you want more boosting with an extra large this is what you want to use. With the NOS you can run for over 7 minutes which is plenty since usually you'll be pulsing your booster. [Raven, Raven PVE XL-SB] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Shield Boost Amplifier I Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile XT-9000 Cruise Launcher, Wrath Cruise Missile Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 ------------------------------------------------- I don't know why so many people put 4 freaking BCS when the stacking penalty on the 4th makes it close to useless when you can fit more effective modules in it's place such as a CPR or DC for extra cap and survivability. If you're a fan of the drake and are patient enough to train for it the nighthawk, it is excellent. It's sexier, fires missiles at machine gun pace, and you can further utilize the skills of your passive fit drake. [Nighthawk, PVE] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Recharger II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Small Tractor Beam I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Hobgoblin II x5 You have practically the same tank (and damage) as an X-Large boosting raven using Invulns if you're feeling lazy. With rat specific hardeners nothing will break you (except for boredom). It's potentially a long training plan but well worth it since you're probably going to want those skills anyway.
Caldari Citizen4714	Posted - 2009.10.05 15:06:00 - [54] Don't passive tank a raven, jesus christ. - Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.05 15:16:00 - [55] Originally by: Pottsey Adequate strength and weaknesses have been posted. I am not talking about a pure buffer tank. I am talking HP regen DPS tank with a buffer, all the modules I fitted are to boost HP regen. I am talking about SPRÆs, Purgers and shield extenders all the same modules and rigs he would use on the Drake and already have the skills to use. Considering his lack of ISK, current skill set and current modules my setup is a good starting point for him. He can pretty much reuse his Drake modules and scale his tank up and down with the damage mods and SPRÆs until he earns some isk. My setup lets him earn isk for an active tank setup and he could use he setup while waiting for active tank skills to be trained. The problem here Pottsey, as I'd pointed out (a few posts earlier) and you seem to have a very short memory, running an active (cap boosted) Raven takes almost no time to train - to the point of being negligible. If he'd wanted to make money and get some experience in running L4, a Drake is already adequate albeit it'll take him longer to complete them. Infact the OP chose this path if you refer back a few posts. You did not adequately highlight any caveats nor any acceptable reasons for running a buffer tank, on a Raven. See the underline, it's a small but very important distinction. You seem to have this pathological knack of continually losing focus on what is substance and what is fluff to pad your statements despite the obvious facts, and thus you deserve all the accolades of a very special person. I demonstrated one of caveat, and you chose instead to pursue and question that little test I ran, asking ridiculous questions when the answer was already obviously staring in your face. Is there something stopping you from confirming this yourself on SISI or Tranquility? Originally by: Pottsey Remember I said one of my alts is in Amarr space the same alt who flyÆs Caldari ships and useÆs missiles as I said before. I am not talking about the Kronos. Right Pottsey, first you tell us you don't fly Ravens, then you tell us your friends fly Ravens and now you tell use you're running an alt flying Caldari ships. Does any of these Caldari ships perchance to be a Raven? Originally by: Pottsey You clearly have no interest in arguing with facts or discussing pro and cons on different tanking methods or even using real evidence to prove people wrong. All you seem to want to do is troll and post silly comments. You're absolutely right, I have no interest in arguing with special persons. Originally by: Pottsey I am not wasting any more time on you, not with your bad reputation of trolling so often. I know I skipped over a lot of your last two posts as most of its just trolling and your posts are just getting more and more childish By Jove! I thought you were already gone a few posts back.
zanopheer	Posted - 2009.10.05 15:39:00 - [56] The only reason I would passive fit a raven is for L5 missions, other than that, what is the point. There are no energy nets in L4s
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.05 16:14:00 - [57] Zanopheer there are energy drain in level 4's. It depends on which group of rats you fight. As for Sturmwolke last post I have to lol at it. There is just so much that is so wrong with that post a real replay isn't worthwhile. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
SpaceOddis	Posted - 2009.10.05 17:01:00 - [58] well, one interesting point: for newbs passive raven is far more viable than active :) for.. mission runners.. there are better ships than raven. Basically using ravens instead of cnr is already non optimal so. I have used 90% of my L4 missioning time 10-15min active LSB tank, which worked averagely. However for tougher missions less dps, strong passive tank and no warpouts is a win.
zanopheer	Posted - 2009.10.05 17:20:00 - [59] Originally by: Pottsey Zanopheer there are energy drain in level 4's. It depends on which group of rats you fight. As for Sturmwolke last post I have to lol at it. There is just so much that is so wrong with that post a real replay isn't worthwhile. yea from ships, which by the way amount to crap, take an active tank into an L5 and you'll see the difference.
Zhilia Mann	Posted - 2009.10.05 17:55:00 - [60] Originally by: Sturmwolke Have you taken your medications yet Pottsey? Dude, agro much? Who exactly hasn't taken meds? Passive Ravens work; Pottsey has proven this time and time again and raging against it means next to nothing. You're right that they work at higher skills than an active Raven. At lower skills, both player and toon, they don't work as well, but they do work. So wtf is the issue exactly?
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.05 18:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/10/2009 18:06:35 Originally by: Zhilia Mann Dude, agro much? Who exactly hasn't taken meds? .... me? Quote: Passive Ravens work; Pottsey has proven this time and time again and raging against it means next to nothing. ... So wtf is the issue exactly? "Working" does not make it a good idea. "Working" does not make it as efficient as an active tank. "Working" is really kinda meaningless. It's like telling noobs that they should fly assault frigs in L4s because it works. Sure, it works. No, it's not really a good idea. I mean, if someone wanted to say "This works for me, I know it's a piece of dog**** that is highly inefficient but I don't care because I only hit f1 and alt-tab from my pron screen every 20 minutes" I'd say "OK..." and maybe try to help them further down the road they want to go. But someone honestly suggesting that a passive Raven missions as well as an active Raven? Not a chance. -Liang Ed: And FYI, I happen to know what tank is required on a 3 rigor/6 cruise Raven - and it is more than 200 DPS. You can get away with that **** on a Golem or Nightmare or something, but the vanilla Raven doesn't have the DPS to make that really work. You will need that booster, and most likely you'll need the XL. And that's if you don't ** up aggro. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2009.10.05 18:59:00 - [62] Originally by: Zhilia Mann Dude, agro much? Who exactly hasn't taken meds? Only to very special persons Originally by: Zhilia Mann So wtf is the issue exactly? Liang beat me to it. See above.
Clasina	Posted - 2009.10.05 19:25:00 - [63] if youre so :effort: that managing a shield booster is too much effort for you then you mind as ****ing well use a passive rokh since its pretty obvious you can't be assed enough to do anything efficiently
hauntingappiriton	Posted - 2009.10.05 20:16:00 - [64] I don't care how much you all cry or think you know. Truth is you don't pay each others bills. I don't care if some one puts hams on a raven passive tanks it active tanks it or puts civilian modules on it. You all will never agree on a fit no matter what some one will say it sucks . Btw I pvp in a raven and I really good with it even solo so ....yeah emo rage about how I do it
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.05 20:32:00 - [65] Originally by: hauntingappiriton I don't care how much you all cry or think you know. Truth is you don't pay each others bills. I don't care if some one puts hams on a raven passive tanks it active tanks it or puts civilian modules on it. You all will never agree on a fit no matter what some one will say it sucks . Btw I pvp in a raven and I really good with it even solo so ....yeah emo rage about how I do it It's not so rare as you might think to have a standard fit become the de-facto standard. A year ago, the standard Raven was: 6 Cruise XL SB, SBA, 3 Hardeners, PWNAGE/CR 3 BCU, 2 PDU 3 CCC Right now, the standard Hurricane fit is: 6 220, 2 (HAM/Neut) MWD, Disruptor, 2 LSE 3 Gyro, DC, 2 Nano Ambit/Extender/Resist Rigs While the individual modules may change slightly, they're really just variations on the same tried and proven theme. I'm sure if you look back, you can see other ships that had standard fits that didn't change for substantial periods of time (Rupture, Vexor, Thorax, Muninn, Cerberus, Megathron, Hyperion, Geddon, Harbinger, etc). -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.05 23:16:00 - [66] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 05/10/2009 23:16:23 Originally by: zanopheer Originally by: Pottsey Zanopheer there are energy drain in level 4's. It depends on which group of rats you fight. yea from ships, which by the way amount to crap, take an active tank into an L5 and you'll see the difference. Umm, I did a level 4 mission recently that had 4 energy neut towers. PITA, and that's with active hardened but passive recharge Drake. Would have been easier with any Raven as the towers were outside my noobish HML range at >62 km, so I had to slow-boat into range and rely on only my un-hardened buffer.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.06 04:57:00 - [67] Originally by: Liang Nuren It's not so rare as you might think to have a standard fit become the de-facto standard. A year ago, the standard Raven was: 6 Cruise XL SB, SBA, 3 Hardeners, PWNAGE/CR 3 BCU, 2 PDU 3 CCC Right now, the standard Hurricane fit is: 6 220, 2 (HAM/Neut) MWD, Disruptor, 2 LSE 3 Gyro, DC, 2 Nano Ambit/Extender/Resist Rigs -Liang I liked my 4 bcu perma run large booster raven better (4 boostamp/hardener, cap recharger, cap flux, 6x cruise, 3x ccc) don't remember the pwnage being all that useful back then. also I really don't get why you went from a standard raven fit from a year ago to current hurricane setup You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.06 07:43:00 - [68] To illustrate that there always have been, and currently are, "standard" setups that virtually everyone agrees on. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
L'Artest	Posted - 2009.10.06 12:18:00 - [69] A 4th BCU add about 27dps, how are you (everyone?) justifying that this is a good use of a low slot on a ship with only 5 low slots?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.06 12:34:00 - [70] Originally by: L'Artest A 4th BCU add about 27dps, how are you (everyone?) justifying that this is a good use of a low slot on a ship with only 5 low slots? The only reasonable alternative is a PDU, which gives even less of a boost to your tank… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
L'Artest	Posted - 2009.10.06 12:40:00 - [71] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: L'Artest A 4th BCU add about 27dps, how are you (everyone?) justifying that this is a good use of a low slot on a ship with only 5 low slots? The only reasonable alternative is a PDU, which gives even less of a boost to your tankà Regular Ravens (That are not nessicarily T2, as seen in OP) could use that boost to cap/shield tbh
Zhilia Mann	Posted - 2009.10.06 14:59:00 - [72] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/10/2009 18:06:35 Originally by: Zhilia Mann Dude, agro much? Who exactly hasn't taken meds? .... me? No.... You're actually not very good at the full agro post; cf. Merin. Not that that's a bad thing. Originally by: Liang Nuren "Working" does not make it a good idea. "Working" does not make it as efficient as an active tank. "Working" is really kinda meaningless. It's like telling noobs that they should fly assault frigs in L4s because it works. Sure, it works. No, it's not really a good idea. Fair enough. I can't even fly one and never want to. Triple omni Domi seems to get the job done just fine. As does the NH. Though I don't use a passive shield tank. Originally by: Liang Nuren I mean, if someone wanted to say "This works for me, I know it's a piece of dog** that is highly inefficient but I don't care because I only hit f1 and alt-tab from my pron screen every 20 minutes" I'd say "OK..." and maybe try to help them further down the road they want to go. But someone honestly suggesting that a passive Raven missions as well as an active Raven? Not a chance. Meh. I like the idea of passive tanking. In some ways it's a better introduction to PvP; there's a shorter step from passive to buffer than active to buffer wrt shield tanking. But you're right; it probably isn't an optimal solution on a Raven. Originally by:** Liang Nuren Ed: And FYI, I happen to know what tank is required on a 3 rigor/6 cruise Raven - and it is more than 200 DPS. You can get away with that **** on a Golem or Nightmare or something, but the vanilla Raven doesn't have the DPS to make that really work. You will need that booster, and most likely you'll need the XL. And that's if you don't **** up aggro. Dual pith-Bs still work alright, don't they? The NH doesn't sig tank that much.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.06 15:04:00 - [73] Originally by: Zhilia Mann Dual pith-Bs still work alright, don't they? The NH doesn't sig tank that much. The NH certainly doesn't sig-tank in a passive setup, no, because with all those shield mods, it ends up the size of a small moon. In a dual-active+AB setup, however, it sigtanks very well (as long as you stay away from certain T2 ammo) on top of the already insane tank you can get out of those boosters (but which you generally don't need). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
AnKahn Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.	Posted - 2009.10.06 15:13:00 - [74] Passive tanked Drakes(and Myrms)shield tank better than some Battleships using LSEers. You can passive shield tank a HAC and get a pretty nice tank. In both of the above examples you get a lot of passive regen that acts like you are perma running an active repper. This adds a significant amount of "extra" tank WHILE YOU ARE BEING SHOT. The passive regen on a BS tank trying to do the same trick is meh. In order to get the relatively same "magic" out of a BS size ship you would need the next larger shield extender the "XLSE", EvE's version of the snipe. If you had XLSE to put on Ravens they would tank like the next ship class up so you would get a 1200 DPS boat that never misses, has range, and can hit smaller ships with a Cap ship sized buffer that retains the agility of a shield tanker. Overpowered much?? What Pottsy does is fly a buffered shield tank that can regen between DPS spikes and he gets away with it because he can kill the incoming DPS fast. Pottsy has been on about this since back when all I cared about was Ravens. Keep the dream alive brother! And that's all I have to say about that.
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.06 15:22:00 - [75] Originally by: L'Artest Originally by: Tippia Originally by: L'Artest A 4th BCU add about 27dps, how are you (everyone?) justifying that this is a good use of a low slot on a ship with only 5 low slots? The only reasonable alternative is a PDU, which gives even less of a boost to your tankà Regular Ravens (That are not nessicarily T2, as seen in OP) could use that boost to cap/shield tbh welcome to the mission ***** forum where all skills are assumed to be at level 5, as well as correct 5% implants plugged in unless explicitly stated otherwise. why is it that way? a) easier to compare fits b) some of us actually have all level 5 skills c) just because, so deal m'kay? You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Forum Chav	Posted - 2009.10.06 18:48:00 - [76] Edited by: Forum Chav on 06/10/2009 18:52:59 lol, raven's still providing forum contretemps i see. main flies a raven in missions. has flown both active and passive. active to me [with twin small pith b's] is quicker than a passive. i also cannot see how a passive tank can also have damage mods. those lows are for regen mods surely? having said that, i don't time myself missioning. if i take 10mins or 15. who gives a f***?

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