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rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.06 23:38:00 - [1] Edited by: rubico1337 on 06/10/2009 23:39:37 i an a producer in the t3 market, usually i get shafted because of the fast pace price changes in the market, and the fact that usually my corp can only make build orders a couple days or even a week before they hit the market due to wormhole logistics. and by then the price has usually plummeted in the subsystems we produce. no harm no foul. it comes with the territory however the legion gang link subsystem market baffles me, it seems the combination of t3 production chain fail on ccp's part plus the mindless market lemmings combine to make the most well intentioned economist cringe. this subsystem is currently selling at around 26 million, thats 30 million below production costs what makes this even more crazy is that the production costs are identical across all offensive subsystems and all races, so people are building these even as we speak. why ccp chose such a simplistic one-size-fits all is beyond me, and why they left the reverse engineering of these subsystems to be blind, unable to adjust to demand is just icing on the cake naturally one would say, TO THE REPROCESSORS! but ccp in its infinite wisdom make t3 subsystems unable to be reprocessed. so natural floors could not form. and all those precious bottlenecked melted nanoribbons(i wont even start about the ccp fail here) could be locked in these useless subsystems forever several noble attempts at market manipulation(not on my part) have clearly occurred trying boost the price to at least production costs. but these have all failed. mainly because they most likely all rely on the assumption that producers have at least a clue about what they are doing, and that they would sell the components for 70 mill rather than producing a subsystem and selling at 26 not to mention all those useless legion gang lenk blueprints my corp, and likely many others have that we might as well trash. good job ccp /rant
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.10.06 23:43:00 - [2] Oh look, yet another worthless thread with someone whining about something but offering no alternative.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.07 00:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Solisk Oh look, yet another worthless thread with someone whining about something but offering no alternative. oh, im sorry i didnt spell it out for you. usually i assume people have a rudimentary amount of reading comprehension and ability to infer Originally by: rubico1337 what makes this even more crazy is that the production costs are identical across all offensive subsystems and all races, so people are building these even as we speak. why ccp chose such a simplistic one-size-fits all is beyond me, Originally by: rubico1337 and why they left the reverse engineering of these subsystems to be blind, unable to adjust to demand is just icing on the cake Originally by: rubico1337 naturally one would say, TO THE REPROCESSORS! but ccp in its infinite wisdom make t3 subsystems unable to be reprocessed.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.07 00:08:00 - [4] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Solisk Oh look, yet another worthless thread with someone whining about something but offering no alternative. oh, im sorry i didnt spell it out for you. usually i assume people have a rudimentary amount of reading comprehension and ability to infer Originally by: rubico1337 what makes this even more crazy is that the production costs are identical across all offensive subsystems and all races, so people are building these even as we speak. why ccp chose such a simplistic one-size-fits all is beyond me, Originally by: rubico1337 and why they left the reverse engineering of these subsystems to be blind, unable to adjust to demand is just icing on the cake Originally by: rubico1337 naturally one would say, TO THE REPROCESSORS! but ccp in its infinite wisdom make t3 subsystems unable to be reprocessed. So you're whining about somehting, calling people idiots without looking at why CCP might have done something, not asking help to understand why the prices are the way they are AND not offering an alternative. That better? -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Andron Blaxcor	Posted - 2009.10.07 00:11:00 - [5] As a note, most manufacturers aren't stupid enough to lose 30m on each subsystem they produce. Just because the current price is below your manufacturing costs doesn't mean it's below theirs. Maybe you should look into other sources of materials. If your corp searches WH for its own materials, surely your material cost is zero? Part of te problem may be that a lot of WH exploration corps produce their own T3 ships and subsystems, meaning their cost of materials may be hidden from you. If there is currently a loss being made by all manufacturers I guarantee they will not do this forever. Supply will decrease and prices will rise until it's profitable again. However, I suspect you're paying more than your competitors for materials and they're making a profit where you perceive a loss.
Drexciyian The Water Margin Tech	Posted - 2009.10.07 00:26:00 - [6] Think your missing the point that no one uses those thus people who didnt research the market before making it found it doesnt sale and drops the price in the hope that someone buys it.
Cordrel	Posted - 2009.10.07 00:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Andron Blaxcor If your corp searches WH for its own materials, surely your material cost is zero? Part of te problem may be that a lot of WH exploration corps produce their own T3 ships and subsystems, meaning their cost of materials may be hidden from you. If a T3 producer uses materials they acquired through wormhole exploration to manufacture subsystems that sell for less than the materials can be sold for then they are effectively making a loss due to opportunity cost.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.07 00:38:00 - [8] Originally by: Andron Blaxcor As a note, most manufacturers aren't stupid enough to lose 30m on each subsystem they produce. Just because the current price is below your manufacturing costs doesn't mean it's below theirs. Maybe you should look into other sources of materials. If your corp searches WH for its own materials, surely your material cost is zero? Part of te problem may be that a lot of WH exploration corps produce their own T3 ships and subsystems, meaning their cost of materials may be hidden from you. If there is currently a loss being made by all manufacturers I guarantee they will not do this forever. Supply will decrease and prices will rise until it's profitable again. However, I suspect you're paying more than your competitors for materials and they're making a profit where you perceive a loss. troll? no, we do acquire our own stuff but we value them at current market prices.
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2009.10.07 00:50:00 - [9] I'm not one to be wrathful, but your post borders on trolling: ---edit...I won't be wrathful, I'll just quickly tell you what you're doing wrong (And I do know what I'm talking about.) The problem isn't phantom producers. The problem is you. T3 producers with their heads stuck in WHs with regards to the market are the ONLY reason there are subsystems selling below costs. I repeat: YOU SIR, are the problem. STOP doing the following: 1. Producing from every blueprint you reverse engineer. (I have over 2000 runs of Supplementary Coolant Injector that will never get produced. That is not an exaggeration. I just checked. The actual number is 2220) 2. Producing without checking Jita on an hourly basis, unless you ONLY produce the best subsystems (Fuel Catalysts, Adaptive Augs, etc.) DO do the following: 1. Have half your operation one or two jumps from jita. (It takes one small Caldari Control Tower, one Experimental Lab, and one-two subsystem assembly arrays to do EVERYTHING.) 2. Have an alt/corpmate who just minds the market. I feel like I've given away too much already. But I repeat with vehemence as a T3 producer who never steps into WHs: YOU ARE CREATING THIS PROBLEM.
Susung Alt Anti-defamation League	Posted - 2009.10.07 01:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Drexciyian Think your missing the point that no one uses those thus people who didnt research the market before making it found it doesnt sale and drops the price in the hope that someone buys it. \This
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.10.07 01:45:00 - [11] Whoa, wait, hold the phone here... People produce things that aren't profitable? To the marketobile!
MasterJong	Posted - 2009.10.07 02:15:00 - [12] Originally by: rubico1337 Edited by: rubico1337 on 06/10/2009 23:39:37 i an a producer in the t3 market, usually i get shafted because of the fast pace price changes in the market, and the fact that usually my corp can only make build orders a couple days or even a week before they hit the market due to wormhole logistics. and by then the price has usually plummeted in the subsystems we produce. no harm no foul. it comes with the territory however the legion gang link subsystem market baffles me, it seems the combination of t3 production chain fail on ccp's part plus the mindless market lemmings combine to make the most well intentioned economist cringe. this subsystem is currently selling at around 26 million, thats 30 million below production costs what makes this even more crazy is that the production costs are identical across all offensive subsystems and all races, so people are building these even as we speak. why ccp chose such a simplistic one-size-fits all is beyond me, and why they left the reverse engineering of these subsystems to be blind, unable to adjust to demand is just icing on the cake naturally one would say, TO THE REPROCESSORS! but ccp in its infinite wisdom make t3 subsystems unable to be reprocessed. so natural floors could not form. and all those precious bottlenecked melted nanoribbons(i wont even start about the ccp fail here) could be locked in these useless subsystems forever several noble attempts at market manipulation(not on my part) have clearly occurred trying boost the price to at least production costs. but these have all failed. mainly because they most likely all rely on the assumption that producers have at least a clue about what they are doing, and that they would sell the components for 70 mill rather than producing a subsystem and selling at 26 not to mention all those useless legion gang lenk blueprints my corp, and likely many others have that we might as well trash. good job ccp /rant
Aluin Chaput Caldari Mort's Navy	Posted - 2009.10.07 02:33:00 - [13] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Andron Blaxcor As a note, most manufacturers aren't stupid enough to lose 30m on each subsystem they produce. Just because the current price is below your manufacturing costs doesn't mean it's below theirs. Maybe you should look into other sources of materials. If your corp searches WH for its own materials, surely your material cost is zero? Part of te problem may be that a lot of WH exploration corps produce their own T3 ships and subsystems, meaning their cost of materials may be hidden from you. If there is currently a loss being made by all manufacturers I guarantee they will not do this forever. Supply will decrease and prices will rise until it's profitable again. However, I suspect you're paying more than your competitors for materials and they're making a profit where you perceive a loss. troll? no, we do acquire our own stuff but we value them at current market prices. If you don't buy them, you typically count them at market value. I would base it off how much ISK that person could have made in that hour vs what they did, and use that as a cost model. And sometimes, it really is just the lemmings. Tradings will do hysterical things (I know, I take a certain pleasure in watching them do it when I can.) to sell. Driving prices down half way simply because of market manipulation. Also, consider that other markets might be selling for more, or, possibly even less. This is a great way through which proper prices are acquired.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.07 03:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Alice Celadon The problem isn't phantom producers. The problem is you. T3 producers with their heads stuck in WHs with regards to the market are the ONLY reason there are subsystems selling below costs. I repeat: YOU SIR, are the problem. STOP doing the following: 1. Producing from every blueprint you reverse engineer. (I have over 2000 runs of Supplementary Coolant Injector that will never get produced. That is not an exaggeration. I just checked. The actual number is 2220) 2. Producing without checking Jita on an hourly basis, unless you ONLY produce the best subsystems (Fuel Catalysts, Adaptive Augs, etc.) i do not produce every BP that i reverse engineer. if you read the post you would have realized that. there are tons of trash BPs that are clogging up the subsystem assembly array. i check jita as often as possible and produce on current prices, whether that data is dated by the time it comes to the sell order i am prepared to deal with. id rather be producing in WH space than in highsec... because its highsec. (consider it a part of my utility function) Originally by: Alice Celadon we DONT produce DO do the following: 1. Have half your operation one or two jumps from jita. (It takes one small Caldari Control Tower, one Experimental Lab, and one-two subsystem assembly arrays to do EVERYTHING.) NO. and ill take the losses because of it. even though they arnt that much at all Originally by: Alice Celadon 2. Have an alt/corpmate who just minds the market. i have an alt. im not stupid
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.07 03:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Signore Kaeota So you're whining about somehting, calling people idiots without looking at why CCP might have done something, not asking help to understand why the prices are the way they are AND not offering an alternative. That better? becaue im to lazy to type it all and because others can come to similar conclusions
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.07 05:08:00 - [16] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Signore Kaeota So you're whining about somehting, calling people idiots without looking at why CCP might have done something, not asking help to understand why the prices are the way they are AND not offering an alternative. That better? becaue im to lazy to type it all and because others can come to similar conclusions All your posts are is whining. The second post you linked proposes a solution. You see the difference? Whining is pointless. We all know CCP ain't perfect - but complaining about the way things are done without offering anything other than a f***ed market as proof is pointless. Herschel actually isolated the problem, thought about it, and proposed a solution. You say you're too lazy to type it? Then don't make a post. You want people to seriously think about something? Don't just complain about it and then expect them to go research it, just to see if you have a point, then come up with a solution for you. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.10.07 13:52:00 - [17] Edited by: Saehta on 07/10/2009 13:53:03 We ~~mine~~ run our own ~~minerals~~ WH ops so our material cost is almost zero, thus its all profit.
Noskill McCheese Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.07 13:53:00 - [18] Heh, you're whining about a whiner
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.10.07 14:57:00 - [19] My question is, if an item is unprofitable then why do you make it?
Capt Fossil Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.07 15:18:00 - [20] Originally by: cosmoray My question is, if an item is unprofitable then why do you make it? this
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.08 02:09:00 - [21] Originally by: cosmoray My question is, if an item is unprofitable then why do you make it? i dont, i am just ranting(whining whatever) about the mechanics of t3 production, and to a lesser extent lemmings. have you been reading at all?
Bloody Rabbit	Posted - 2009.10.08 04:10:00 - [22] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: cosmoray My question is, if an item is unprofitable then why do you make it? i dont, i am just ranting(whining whatever) about the mechanics of t3 production, and to a lesser extent lemmings. have you been reading at all? Mate, Get in line behind the T1 builders, T2 builders and the capital builders who have been dealing with people building items that are under the base mineral price, granted that we can refine the items back into minerals and sell them their minerals back but still, this is a common problem and just find away around it.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.10.08 04:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Get in line behind the T1 builders, T2 builders and the capital builders who have been dealing with people building items that are under the base mineral price, granted that we can refine the items back into minerals and sell them their minerals back but still, this is a common problem and just find away around it. Why refine into minerals the items that you, yourself build :) Just reduce your production run by the number of units purchased under mineral value from the market and add that inventory to your next sales order? Sure the profit might be a little lower in some cases but it's profit for zero work other then recognizing that it's cheaper then build materials. Amarr for Life
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.08 07:17:00 - [24] Actually, the solution here has already been mentioned - and surprise surprise, it's the exact same way you deal with everything else that sells beneath build costs; specifically, don't build it. There are hundreds of examples of items, ships, components etc that sell for less than they build for - and a fair portion of them in that small gap where it's not profitable to refine them either. Get over it, or suggest an actual solution. And yes, I'm whining about whiners, why? Cause this thread is useless anyway, so why not use it to get rid of some stress? -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Rudgier Thorrin Caldari Blyskawica	Posted - 2009.10.08 10:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Saehta Edited by: Saehta on 07/10/2009 13:53:03 We ~~mine~~ run our own ~~minerals~~ WH ops so our material cost is almost zero, thus its all profit. That is only true if you consider your time worthless.
Taram Caldar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.10.08 12:14:00 - [26] If it's not profitable, don't build it. Eventually enough people will do this that the item will become less available, demand will force the price up, and it will become profitable again. If you have stockpiles just sit on them till the item becomes profitable. It's not rocket science. Does it suck that you can't reprocess the T3 stuff? Sure... but work around the problem or suggest a solution to CCP in the development forums. Whining about game mechanics here isn't gonna get you a whole lot of sympathy (As you have found). Want a sig made? Contact me in game. Click my sig to see samples
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.10.08 18:23:00 - [27] Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 08/10/2009 18:23:00 The nannoribons i salvage are free !!!!!!! Seriously : i hate it since i cant reprocess subsystems.
Andron Blaxcor	Posted - 2009.10.08 23:17:00 - [28] I'm sorry my post seems to have drawn more than a little fire. It was not a troll, but perhaps a little simplistic. The thrust of it was that I do not believe the other manufacturers will continue to make a loss. If they are, indeed, making a loss, they will soon stop it. If they are not making a loss then they are obviously obtaining materials in a way cheaper than the OP is managing. The idea that production costs for minerals is zero is also rather simplistic and I apologise for that. As Rudgier pointed out, people value their time and I, rather foolishly didn't acknowledge this. What I was getting at, however, is that people value their time differently. They may view their time as less valuable than yours and so can make a perceived profit at a lower final product cost. The opportunity cost is a fine counter-argument to this, however. For my thoughts on this I refer to the first paragraph of this post. If it is unprofitable, people will stop doing it when they realise it is. If you think it is unprofitable to make T3 ships, amybe shoud sell components to those who make a loss?
Arch Law State War Academy	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Andron Blaxcor If they are not making a loss then they are obviously obtaining materials in a way cheaper than the OP is managing. If they have a way to procure WH materials for that subsystem cheaper than market cost, they'd make much more profit just selling the materials on market rather than deliberately losing money converting them to subsystems. - What value, trust? In a world without betrayal? What value, charity? In a world without greed? What value, kindness? In a world without cruelty? What distinction, good? In a world without evil?
Turiel Demon Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.10.09 02:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Andron Blaxcor I'm sorry my post seems to have drawn more than a little fire. It was not a troll, but perhaps a little simplistic. The thrust of it was that I do not believe the other manufacturers will continue to make a loss. If they are, indeed, making a loss, they will soon stop it. That's where you went wrong. Eve doesn't point out to you that you're making a loss, you have to actively think about what you're doing, and many people either can't or won't think it through properly. Those people bringing in enough materials out of wormholes to build these subs do so, then sell them, and are happy with the isk they get without ever thinking of the difference between the simple market sell cost of their components - isk that they are effectively throwing away. There's no actual punishment for their failure, because in a very real sense it isn't a failure... they aren't actually losing anything - their wallet goes up every step of the way. They're just not succeeding optimally. If there was a price for losing out to more efficient competition sure, they'd stop, but there isn't, so they keep providing profit opportunities (or in this case cheap subs) for the rest of us

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