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Sin or Widow (or indeed Redeemer or Panther) - which is more popular?

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Oni Waban Redshift Industries	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Oni Waban on 09/10/2009 08:42:14 If you're going to fly one of these stealthy beasts, is it mostly a matter of logical progression as to which you choose ie. you already have high Caldari battleship skills. But say you have no battleship skills or indeed are skilled for say Gallente and Caldari battleship, then which class is generally felt to be the most popular? TIA
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:50:00 - [2] I donÆt think any of them are popular. Perhaps even the most useless and unpopular ship out of all of ships. DidnÆt one of the old reports say less then 100 people fly them or some other very low number? Stealthy beasts they are not. A Domi with a cloak is just as stealthy and more beast like. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2009.10.09 10:04:00 - [3] I'd say the Widow is probably the worst of the them, as ECM without range sucks as well as its impossible to tank and be effective with ECM. Besides, in cloaky hotdrops you could always bring a Falcon and do the ECM thing much better. Of the other 3, I'd the Redeemer has the slight edge because it actually gets 3 weapon bonuses, rather than a bonus to agility/speed. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.09 10:29:00 - [4] They are mostly just exepncive covert bridgers, so any of them will do :) I'd get a Widow since it can ECM itself away from a tackler. Panther can be kind of nanoed tho (last I check, about 0.5 years ago granted...) But meh, never flown one ;) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
SDragoon	Posted - 2009.10.09 10:30:00 - [5] TBH from what I've seen these ships tend to be a ever so slightly better version of their tech 1 counterpart with a somewhat useless cloak bonus and the ability to jump to covert cynos. Personally their use as a combat vessel is questionable at best. I'd recommend just using them to make covert jump bridges so you can hot drop some recons and bomber on a dicey situation.
Maud Sub-Genius inc	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:34:00 - [6] These are covert ships and so you have to use them as such or there an expensive loss. I have flown all bar the redeemer I have all black ops skills to L5 so lesser skilled pilots may have more difficultys using them effectively All as stated by others are best used for bridging and jumping to covert cyno's (covert cyno dosn't automaticaly spell self destruct when used in a hostile enviroment). My Uses in combat have shown Sin - is useful as a neut boat as if fitted correctly you can have 1 cycle of neuts on the target before the cloak drops completely - however the handling and tank are awful so be very cautios using this Widow - is probably the most useful as it can be a suprise swing to any fight. The ecm is as good as it gets the cost is exorborant tho compated to the recon equivelants tho Panther - This was an awesome ship until the nano nerf capable of speeds over 15 km/sec with smoking hot overloads. However it has now lost its focus and it practicaly pointless apart from as a pop up sniper which is better acomplished by a standard BS Redeemer - i have only fought against these and never had the inclination to own one having seen them perform so poorly - Once again the ship is reduced to the suprise second rate sniper roll but at leastr it can tank a little harder than the mimitar black ops Taking the time and cost of using any one of these ships anyone chosing to do so must be dedicated to using these specialist shipsdespite their limited functionality.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:24:00 - [7] Black ops just AREN'T popular in general because their intended role is just to shuttle around small recon gangs... who don't need shuttling in the first place. The other bonuses they get are jokes and are only there because other ships have bonuses. As for nano panther.... nano sin would be better NOWadays because agility will get you farther than speed (I mean... fast battleships? really? cmon... [This is excluding the changes to the machariel]) I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Caldari Citizen4714	Posted - 2009.10.09 18:21:00 - [8] You can make a pretty mean widow. Decent gank, good with a cloak. Witness: [Widow, Wromhole Gank Probin'] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I ECCM - Gravimetric II 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Improved Cloaking Device II Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Warrior II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Admittedly against multiple targets you'll be in trouble since it has basically only an "ECM tank". But for sologanking other WH soloers? It's a mean setup. - Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request
MarieFrance Tessier	Posted - 2009.10.09 18:28:00 - [9] 4 racials > 4 multispecs.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:00:00 - [10] The only one I would ever consider uncloaking and using in actual combat is the redeemer. And even that would be from 150+ km away. Rawr tachs. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit

Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:13:00 - [11] IMO, the Redeemer and Panther are the two most interesting. The Redeemer because it doesn't actually suck, and the Panther because it can half-way be nano'ed. Somewhat. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Tarnia Xavian Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:59:00 - [12] haha. It would appear that no one in this thread has actually flown them before in combat. Black Ops are among the most powerful ships in the game at the moment even if you never touch the bridging capability. - BS hitpoints and dps - jump drive, including covert cyno + stargate use (the only ship in the game that can do both 'cept for the jump freighter which is difficult to fit the blasters) - cloaking bonus (not the velocity one, the other one) (smile) They have pure win written all over them, but it takes high level of skillpoints to use them effectively. The Redeemer is generally considered the best, but only because lazors are over powered at the moment (imo).
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Artemis Rose I'd say the Widow is probably the worst of the them, as ECM without range sucks as well as its impossible to tank and be effective with ECM. Besides, in cloaky hotdrops you could always bring a Falcon and do the ECM thing much better. Of the other 3, I'd the Redeemer has the slight edge because it actually gets 3 weapon bonuses, rather than a bonus to agility/speed. Widow is the most used of them...
Nikuno	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:20:00 - [14] I've only flown the Sin, and it's hopeless for almost anything you'd want to do except for the cyno trick (which they all do identically). Please, avoid these ships at all costs, but most especially the Sin if you absolutely have to get one.
kessah Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:26:00 - [15] Redeemer is what i use on merc contracts. Sin is 2nd favorite if ive access to 800's frequently.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:35:00 - [16] Hint: ignore the Widow's ECM bonus (or at most, fit a DG multispec or two), it's a jump drive torp Raven. With a properly-executed black ops hotdrop, you don't need jamming, you need 1k dps per ship, and the Widow brings that. As for the specific ships: Widow: pretty good overall, torp gank fit = 1k dps, 80k buffer to stay alive reasonably long, and some spare mids to play with for ewar or painters or whatever. Redeemer: also a very good ship. Matches the Widow's 1k dps (though guns and missiles each have their advantages), tanks a bit better, but lacks anything beyond gank/tank. Sin: awesome 0.0 carebear ship, jump drive to avoid gatecamps, cloak to hide from probes, and all of the carebear goodness of a standard Dominix. Unfortunately it's weak for PvP, as the dps is just not high enough to do the job of a black ops. Panther: obsolete post-nano-nerf. The Widow and Redeemer are simply better options, only fly a Panther if you're stuck with Minmatar skills. -----------
Confessor BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:02:00 - [17] We love all your ideas about black ops. I think I will retire my black ops right now, it's useless, total crap. Really, it's not worth training.
Von Kretschmer No Trademark	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Confessor We love all your ideas about black ops. I think I will retire my black ops right now, it's useless, total crap. Really, it's not worth training.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2009.10.09 23:19:00 - [19] I've seen people greifing ratters with RR redeemer gangs. About 3 of them cloaked in different belts, and when one finds someone he decloaks as his buddies come out of warp. Then they seem to jump out when you try to blob them.
Lord Zulu	Posted - 2009.10.10 01:39:00 - [20] Edited by: Lord Zulu on 10/10/2009 01:40:52 Well IMO if you actually get into a fight with any of thease ships your flying BLACK OPS wrong they covert bridge in recon/SB gang and should never be in the target system let alone on the grid the only use for them is the bridge. If your thinking of useing them for anything else try the T1 counterpart

Cadius Vect CARDASSIANS	Posted - 2009.10.10 02:21:00 - [21] Burn eden used to have an all redeemer fleet that they used to terrorize the residents of stain, then the whole fleet got DD'd not sure if they have replaced them or not, but they seemed to be highly effective, I think when implemented correctly they probably can be quite decent. ----------------------------------------------------------- Killboard: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Cadius+Vect-kills.html
Ancy Denaries Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound	Posted - 2009.10.10 17:50:00 - [22] Originally by: Cadius Vect Edited by: Cadius Vect on 10/10/2009 02:37:20 Burn eden have an all redeemer fleet that they use to terrorize the residents of stain, then the fleet got DD'd not sure if they have replaced them or not, haven't been in stain for a while. Black OPs seemed to be highly effective, I think when implemented correctly they probably can be quite decent. This. Like every ship, the Black Ops have their niche. It's just very slim, but they make for excellent hit and run ships with a bit of stayability. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die.
Footoo Rama Gallente Caldari Illuminati	Posted - 2009.10.12 08:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Tarnia Xavian haha. It would appear that no one in this thread has actually flown them before in combat. Black Ops are among the most powerful ships in the game at the moment even if you never touch the bridging capability. - BS hitpoints and dps - jump drive, including covert cyno + stargate use (the only ship in the game that can do both 'cept for the jump freighter which is difficult to fit the blasters) - cloaking bonus (not the velocity one, the other one) (smile) They have pure win written all over them, but it takes high level of skillpoints to use them effectively. The Redeemer is generally considered the best, but only because lazors are over powered at the moment (imo). except they do about 1/2 dps compared to the T1 version. They are usefull for making the cov ops cyno and doing some out of the fight logistics... No reason to fight a black ops. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!"
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.10.12 10:08:00 - [24] Edited by: Grimpak on 12/10/2009 10:11:20 all BO's have the prime role of covert portals, and all do this as it says in the box. now, as a secondary role in covert fleets however, things are different. Panther has nice capabilities as either long range or short range fire support. Redeemer with that tracking bonus is also great as a small stuff screener for such fleets (T2 pulses + scorch + range rigs = pwns small ** very fast) Widow works as either a covert missile deployment battery, a covert ECM battery or a covert ECM/missile battery. it has the most straightforward bonuses tbh. Sin, while the agility bonus is, infact, totally useless tbh, it has that uncanny ability of actually be a somewhat beefier, heavier and slower ishtar with cloaking bonuses. While lacking the range bonus of the ishtar, the fact that it can both serve as a screener and mild Ewar platform. The Ewar bit can be easily replaced by any of the recons, but it's still somewhat of a swiss army knife. one thing to keep in mind tho is that ALL BO's will die if you sneeze at them, so this secondary role of serving as support to covert fleets is just that: support role. you come in only when the engagement is clearly on your side to provide either that last strech of DPS or that little bit of Ewar that provides the icing of the cake, and you are the first to make yourself scarce when stuff goes wrong. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Preem Palvor ExploRiggery Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.12 11:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 12/10/2009 10:11:20 all BO's have the prime role of covert portals, and all do this as it says in the box. now, as a secondary role in covert fleets however, things are different. Panther has nice capabilities as either long range or short range fire support. Redeemer with that tracking bonus is also great as a small stuff screener for such fleets (T2 pulses + scorch + range rigs = pwns small **** very fast) Widow works as either a covert missile deployment battery, a covert ECM battery or a covert ECM/missile battery. it has the most straightforward bonuses tbh. Sin, while the agility bonus is, infact, totally useless tbh, it has that uncanny ability of actually be a somewhat beefier, heavier and slower ishtar with cloaking bonuses. While lacking the range bonus of the ishtar, the fact that it can both serve as a screener and mild Ewar platform. The Ewar bit can be easily replaced by any of the recons, but it's still somewhat of a swiss army knife. one thing to keep in mind tho is that ALL BO's will die if you sneeze at them, so this secondary role of serving as support to covert fleets is just that: support role. you come in only when the engagement is clearly on your side to provide either that last strech of DPS or that little bit of Ewar that provides the icing of the cake, and you are the first to make yourself scarce when stuff goes wrong. You sure haven't been flying any black ops ships. none of your comments actually applies to the black ops.
Krall Junior	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Nikuno I've only flown the Sin, and it's hopeless for almost anything you'd want to do except for the cyno trick (which they all do identically). Please, avoid these ships at all costs, but most especially the Sin if you absolutely have to get one. can only agree. crap ships compared to tier 2 BS's even with the fuel bay their jump range is limited their dps is **** to say the least (except for the redeemer perhepas) the sin is probably the most useless of them all basically, over expensive ships with limited use and yet another fail introduction from CCP
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Preem Palvor Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 12/10/2009 10:11:20 all BO's have the prime role of covert portals, and all do this as it says in the box. now, as a secondary role in covert fleets however, things are different. Panther has nice capabilities as either long range or short range fire support. Redeemer with that tracking bonus is also great as a small stuff screener for such fleets (T2 pulses + scorch + range rigs = pwns small ** very fast) Widow works as either a covert missile deployment battery, a covert ECM battery or a covert ECM/missile battery. it has the most straightforward bonuses tbh. Sin, while the agility bonus is, infact, totally useless tbh, it has that uncanny ability of actually be a somewhat beefier, heavier and slower ishtar with cloaking bonuses. While lacking the range bonus of the ishtar, the fact that it can both serve as a screener and mild Ewar platform. The Ewar bit can be easily replaced by any of the recons, but it's still somewhat of a swiss army knife. one thing to keep in mind tho is that ALL BO's will die if you sneeze at them, so this secondary role of serving as support to covert fleets is just that: support role. you come in only when the engagement is clearly on your side to provide either that last strech of DPS or that little bit of Ewar that provides the icing of the cake, and you are the first to make yourself scarce when stuff goes wrong. You sure haven't been flying any black ops ships. none of your comments actually applies to the black ops. well... yeah that's true but I'm skilling for them! --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.10.12 16:52:00 - [28] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 12/10/2009 16:53:07 Originally by: Confessor We love all your ideas about black ops. I think I will retire my black ops right now, it's useless, total crap. Really, it's not worth training. I'm sure you will be educating the masses on this topic as soon as you can find time in your busy schedule. Since the area affect DD's will soon be gone, your BO fleet should have little to worry about soon. It is the mis-information in threads like these that makes it so easy for you guys. Good hunting. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2009.10.12 17:23:00 - [29] Redeemer is nice for jumping carebears and gtfo. I haven't flown any other BO, i can fly the sin but really didn't see the point if i can get a redeemer. The BO's arent useless their cost/efficiency-ratio is just a bit off. Gang's of 4 Redeemers + a cov ops Crane + a cov ops frig with a covert cyno are a hell of a lot fun though. Sure, not the cheapest way to pvp but it'll open up certain targets (like stupid officer-fitted ratters in camped 0.0 alliance space) Like some people said before me, BO's have their niche. They're not useless at all. Problem is most people try to do more with them than they were intended. A lovely pvp ship for people who have enough iskies and wanna try something else/fun


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