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Seyah Tebut
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:29:00 -
[1]
Now, I realize that there's probably going to be a bunch of "no"'s upon seeing this thread title, but I ask that you read it through first before you post.
Currently, suicide gankers rule the skies with no possible defense against them. I know of someone that last night got ganked by a fully T2-fitted Armageddon outside of Jita 4-4 station carrying around 400mil worth of goods for production in one shot. He had no way to defend himself, and lag allowed the ship to be blown up with no chance at a redock to station or able to warp off. As it stands, the suicider has all the advantage with no way to stop him. Sure, we have ECM and Remote Sensor damps, but those will incur the wrath of Concord, get the victims ship blown up and his stuff looted anyways by the suiciders' alt.
What I would like to propose is the following: allow ECM modules of all types (with exception to the Bursts as those are AOE and would incur Concord if used) to be used in high-sec without Concord coming to blow up the ship that is trying to defend itself. As I said in the first paragraph, suicide gankers rule the skies and you can't defend yourself from them, they have all the advantage. How are ships suppose to defend themselves when hauling goods if the only method for defense gets them blown up by the police? This would at least allow a chance for ships to be able to defend themselves from the gankers and would disallow griefing as is currently practiced in this form. Not to mention being able to bring balance to a section of the game that is way overbalanced towards those that gank/suicide ships to get at their cargo (or even just for the lulz).
I understand that this is a radical change to propose, but it isn't without its merits as it would allow ship defense to occur. Perhaps it could (needs to) be done so that only the ship locking you is ECM-able without penalty; just doing it to random ships would still get you blown up by Concord. Having the mechanic done in this manner would allow defense of your ship but without you being able to go around and grief other people by randomly ECM'ing them.
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mchief117
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:33:00 -
[2]
you will be corect as every pirate from this point says no as they might actualy have to fight a decent battle to get money
other wise i like
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Dammus
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:49:00 -
[3]
So now along with all of my neutral logistics alts I'll have to create some neutral ECM alts so I can just jam my enemies to death?
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:49:00 -
[4]
What happens when I scan down your mission, warp to it and perma jam you in a rook?
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Zahorite
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:51:00 -
[5]
Hmmm, from my view I would see ECM as a non offensive weapon. It doesn't directly do damage, but it should cause anyone that uses it against another player to be tagged and open to being attacked by the player that used it without being concorded. Kind of the same as stealing from a can does to my understanding (unless that has changed).
Now that would give ships a way to defend against suicider's. Of course at the same time doing that would mean they wouldn't lose their ship.
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shantaa
Caldari
Chronos Evolution
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:51:00 -
[6]
OMG! Hi sec piracy was given a huge nerf erm I mean balance recently. All you need to do is carry expensive goods in a suitable ship. How about using something like a T2 hauler with a large shield extender fitted. And if your still worried about pirates then fly with a remote repairing wing man. Honestly, what do you expect if you carry your expensive toys in a cheap paper thin ship!
p.s. no I'm not a pirate, but i do like a bit of spice while hauling.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:52:00 -
[7]
So you want to have random people jamming random other people? Like griefers jamming miners and mission runners? LOL! 
--------
Ideas for: Mining
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Seyah Tebut
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:03:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Abrazzar
So you want to have random people jamming random other people? Like griefers jamming miners and mission runners? LOL!
No.
The idea is that the only person that the "victim" ship could jam without penalty or consequence from Concord would be the ship locking them. NOT jamming random noobs in system, since that would cause a huge mess of sorts. You can lock as many ships as you like without Concord blowing you up, but the second you take any kind of action against them you get blown up. The idea is to allow only ECM to be used against a ship locking you to prevent them from ganking you without Concord's response to give the "victim" ship a chance at defense.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:06:00 -
[9]
*facepalm* don't carry 400m worth of goods in a ship worth like 1m. bring a transport ship with tank fitted, or a freighter, make an instawarp bookmark so you dont linger around on the undock point for too long. dont fly on autopilot.
i regularly fly billions around and have never been ganked so far.
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Dammus
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:09:00 -
[10]
So you're basically proposing that locking someone triggers aggression. Another terrible idea in a terrible thread.
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: darius mclever
i regularly fly billions around and have never been ganked so far.
Where?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Imiarr Timshae
Originally by: darius mclever
i regularly fly billions around and have never been ganked so far.
Where?
This suicide ganker pipe and also that other suicide ganker pipe. Also through those other 0.5 systems up there. hope this helps. 
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:16:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Fille Balle on 20/10/2009 21:16:20
Originally by: Dammus
So you're basically proposing that locking someone triggers aggression. Another terrible idea in a terrible thread.
WHAT?!? But that's probably the best idea I've ever heard on these forums!!one!11!!!eleven!1!!
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:20:00 -
[14]
Except you have plenty of ways to avoid suicide ganking.
Fit a tank to your industrial ship. Or, better yet, fly something that's not slow or something that can actually tank (tanky DST or a blockade runner). Suddenly it's not so easy to suicide gank you.
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shantaa
Caldari
Chronos Evolution
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Seyah Tebut
The idea is that the only person that the "victim" ship could jam without penalty or consequence from Concord would be the ship locking them.
This is already the case, any ship attacked already has the right to defend it's self without retribution from Concord. Also, any pilot that has a ship destroyed by a pirate has the right to seek revenge. Lastly, lastly if Concord did not come to the aid of the ship being jammed, then the ship being jammed (aka the pirate dude) should have the right to open fire without fear from concord, life needs to balanced after all.
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Seyah Tebut
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: shantaa
Originally by: Seyah Tebut
The idea is that the only person that the "victim" ship could jam without penalty or consequence from Concord would be the ship locking them.
This is already the case, any ship attacked already has the right to defend it's self without retribution from Concord. Also, any pilot that has a ship destroyed by a pirate has the right to seek revenge. Lastly, lastly if Concord did not come to the aid of the ship being jammed, then the ship being jammed (aka the pirate dude) should have the right to open fire without fear from concord, life needs to balanced after all.
Not if the alpha damage of the attacking ship blows you up in one shot. Therein lies the problem, if you're waiting on them to shoot you so they have the flag to allow you to defend yourself then there's a good chance you're already dead. But that's not even the real problem; by waiting on them to attack for YOU to be able to defend, you are essentially having them dictate the terms of the engagement; chances are that they are going to one-shot you anyways and there's nothing you can do to stop that without ECM and by the time you get the flag to attack, you're dead.
As for allowing the jammed ship to be able to attack without Concord interference....not a bad idea to help balance out the idea in general.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:37:00 -
[17]
if you get knocked down by the alpha damage you were flying totally untanked. you deserved to die.
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Seyah Tebut
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:40:00 -
[18]
From what he told me about it, he had a tank and STILL got blown up in one shot.
Also saw the fitting for the ship, and yes, it was indeed tanked. So if not allowing the ECM idea, how about massively upping the tank on the T1 hauler ships? There needs to be some kind of change somewhere to balance out what the gankers are bringing to the fight.
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Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:45:00 -
[19]
Id only support this if by ECM jamming you are flagged aggression. CONCORD should thus ignore the both of you, thereby allowing a clean fight, which of course you will probably still lose, but hey at least the suicide bomber doesn't lose _his_ ship. win/win!
Good Job on this idea.
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Dammus
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:49:00 -
[20]
Its simple.
They "gankers" are optimizing their ships for alpha to try and one-volley you. Therefore they are going to be very good at it.
Haulers optimize their ships for primarily cargo space and secondarily buffer tank. Therefore you are going to be very good at hauling, but a little worse at tanking.
Also T1 industrials are about equivalent to T1 cruisers in terms of rigs and EHP. Would you carry >400mill in a T1 cruiser and expect not to get ganked?
The suicide gankers are also heavily investing in their ships and fittings to try and take you down. Battleships fitted and insured can cost upwards of 70 million. Your lightly tanked T1 haulers will cost you around 5 million with standard fittings. Balance? Even with a light tank, it will take more than one battleship to gank you safely, and even then, the gankers only receive 50% of the loot that you were carrying.
I had more to write but I have stuff to do...
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.20 22:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Seyah Tebut
From what he told me about it, he had a tank and STILL got blown up in one shot.
Also saw the fitting for the ship, and yes, it was indeed tanked. So if not allowing the ECM idea, how about massively upping the tank on the T1 hauler ships? There needs to be some kind of change somewhere to balance out what the gankers are bringing to the fight.
mind to share the fitting?
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WuChiJIanRen
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Posted - 2009.10.20 23:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: WuChiJIanRen on 20/10/2009 23:16:15
I use an alt to hit myself.Then I ECM you to death,it sounds good
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Savatar Mei
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Posted - 2009.10.20 23:26:00 -
[23]
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Foraven
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.20 23:58:00 -
[24]
Is there a reason why members of the corp of the victim don't get to shoot the ganker? I mean, if the ganker had to deal with every friendlies (including npc corp mates) the target has around, ganking would be far less effective...
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zshotites
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:44:00 -
[25]
You know it wouldn't be a bad idea to change the insurance a bit. For example you don't get insurance if you are destroyed while doing something illegal (Concord blows you up) or if you self destruct your own ship.
Afterall can you really see an actual insurance company paying in either of those circumstances?
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BRAINSSS
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:49:00 -
[26]
I have a better idea. How about nothing triggers Concord aggression ever?
Get a cloaky T2 hauler. Don't expect to be able to do everything the big kids can do before you train the skills to do it. With transport ships trained to 1 you completely take away all the ganker's advantage.
Even though I don't care for this idea, I'm confused why it is needed in the first place. You can already jam someone who shoots you in Empire, right? Suicide gankers will almost always spool their guns, so you will get hit before you can jam someone if you have to wait for them to target you first. Once you get locked you are hit. Once you get hit you are free to jam. Am I missing something?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: BRAINSSS
I have a better idea. How about nothing triggers Concord aggression ever?
Get a cloaky T2 hauler. Don't expect to be able to do everything the big kids can do before you train the skills to do it. With transport ships trained to 1 you completely take away all the ganker's advantage.
Even though I don't care for this idea, I'm confused why it is needed in the first place. You can already jam someone who shoots you in Empire, right? Suicide gankers will almost always spool their guns, so you will get hit before you can jam someone if you have to wait for them to target you first. Once you get locked you are hit. Once you get hit you are free to jam. Am I missing something?
no you dont miss anything. thinking about it ... with the lock time of the average industrial, you would be dead before you can even jam him.
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Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2009.10.21 01:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
What happens when I scan down your mission, warp to it and perma jam you in a rook?
hilarity.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat
WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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BRAINSSS
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Posted - 2009.10.21 01:12:00 -
[29]
Oh good, I don't like it when I miss stuff.
On the other hand, I like the rules of the game to make sense rather than strictly seek balance. Being able to break the lock of someone who locks you in Empire doesn't seem aggressive at all and perhaps should be allowed, even if it isn't going to help in this situation (other than the first reason I gave why it wouldn't work, it also wont work because of ECCM.)
Regarding the insurance idea, I know it has been knocked around a bit and I think CCP even planned on doing it once. I'm nuetral on this. Insurance companies would be unlikely to continue to buy ships for people they knew would just go blow them up, so it does make sense. I'm all for making Empire more evil, however, so there is that too.
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Dirty Wizard
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Posted - 2009.10.21 02:14:00 -
[30]
I like to carry around BPOs in a drake. I will NEVER be suicide bombed ever because you don't fight a drake. You whittle away at it's shields little by little as the daylight hours pass on by.
Not even a fleet of stealth bombers deploying bombs are enough to do any serious damage to a well tanked drake (believe me I've tried).
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