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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.25 02:36:00 -
[91]
yes it needs looking at no more patch ccp fuzzy wuzzy to enable funny things to happen make it clear before dominions
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Kazara Isatoh
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Posted - 2009.10.25 03:07:00 -
[92]
wow i wish i had found this thread soon, answers some questions i have had about corp roles and why they are structured the way they are in relation to the code. Im sure the programmer had his reasons at the time but with all the stuff you guys are adding to the the game it seems like only 64 roles possible is going to limit your design choices.
In this thread Cadde kind of beat me to it, but i had a similar idea for fixing corp roles
Idea Omnibus #2 - Idea #1
hopefully CCP sees the role system as its designed now as a roadblock to further development and chooses to fix it relatively soon.
it kind of makes me wish i was on the CSM and had signed a NDA so i could see what exactly you guys are doing with that 64 bit role flag |
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.10.25 09:03:00 -
[93]
Edited by: CCP Incognito on 25/10/2009 09:03:34
 Originally by: Kazara Isatoh
it kind of makes me wish i was on the CSM and had signed a NDA so i could see what exactly you guys are doing with that 64 bit role flag, in both the server code and the database code.
You should run then, then you could come visit Iceland :)
There is some roles that the average player never see. For instance there are roles for the bug hunters that let them do things like teleport anywhere int eh universe...
Yes we see it starting to become a limitation.
But we have not had a sufficient compelling reason to rework it. It is one of those tasks that would take a programmer a fairly short time to do, but QA would spend the next several mounts testing everything that it touches. The only way to make sure that things that are important didn't break.
Some of the things that roles touch (not a complete list)
space assets,
wallets
hanger access
bills
recruitment
bug hunters
outposts
star bases
voting
S&I
From that I bet you can expand that into a list of features as long as your arm for things that would have to be retested.
and that my friends is not "one line of code" :)
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.25 10:05:00 -
[94]
so its one of htose things that requires deep deep changes, well i guess ccp can add it ot the to do list for post incarna
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Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.25 10:11:00 -
[95]
Originally by: HeliosGal
so its one of htose things that requires deep deep changes, well i guess ccp can add it ot the to do list for post incarna
Not really, this is exactly one of those things that are "well I know how the old works I will just use it, and let someone else change it later"...
So unless it is really a pain, they won't touch it.
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.10.25 12:54:00 -
[96]
Ok back on topic...
I have gotten the designers to agree with the compremise sugestion presented here.
You need star base equipment config role to Anchor and online FLAGs and Hubs.
You need additionally need the Station Management role to offline, and un-anchor the FLAGs and Hubs.
Not a perfect solution, but acceptable?
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Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.10.25 14:10:00 -
[97]
That sounds a lot more reasonable, at least for now. It doesn't solve the role nightmare we currently have, but at least it doesn't worsen it. 
----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X
In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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MJ Maverick
IronPig
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.10.25 23:55:00 -
[98]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Edited by: CCP Incognito on 25/10/2009 14:54:33
Ok back on topic...
I have gotten the designers to agree with the compremise sugestion presented here.
You need star base equipment config role to Anchor and online FLAGs and Hubs.
You additionally need the Station Management role to offline, and un-anchor the FLAGs and Hubs.
Not a perfect solution, but acceptable?
Result! Thank you, hopefully that will last until you get round to a role overhaul. :)
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CCP arse kissing drones are not welcome in my threads. CCP are not perfect. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.10.26 02:02:00 -
[99]
The issue I see. Currently a big force can simply online and let a pos go offline once sov has been claimed. The offline pos then holds sov. So the actual cost to holding sov in worthless systems is 0 pretty much. Nobody wants to siege a pos if the system is worthless.
In the new system. The more systems you have. The more is costs. AND there's a cost on valuless systems.
Take this system for example.
It's in paragon soul. So practically the furthest u can get from empire or anything. It has -0.03 truesec. 2 belts and 4 moons. It's a totally worthless system.
Why would anyone want to pay isk to hold sov in this system? The possibility of there being a moneymoon there is pretty small but even if there is. Moons dont matter for sov anymore.
So lets say that alliance who holds it now simply wont claim it. Instead they will simply have informal ownership of the space. The thing is... what happens when there are big areas simply not claimed but some big force has informal sov of the entire constellation?
Also why do these systems even exist? 2 belts at that truesec that far from empire? Makes no sense.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.26 06:22:00 -
[100]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 26/10/2009 06:23:12
Originally by: Jason Edwards
The issue I see. Currently a big force can simply online and let a pos go offline once sov has been claimed. The offline pos then holds sov. So the actual cost to holding sov in worthless systems is 0 pretty much. Nobody wants to siege a pos if the system is worthless.
You're also wrong. If all towers go offline sov will go neutral.
But you really have no idea what you're talking about. The basic idea is you have sov in systems you actually use. Not you just have sov to have sov.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.10.26 07:40:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Why would anyone want to pay isk to hold sov in this system? The possibility of there being a moneymoon there is pretty small but even if there is. Moons dont matter for sov anymore.
So lets say that alliance who holds it now simply wont claim it. Instead they will simply have informal ownership of the space. The thing is... what happens when there are big areas simply not claimed but some big force has informal sov of the entire constellation?
Also why do these systems even exist? 2 belts at that truesec that far from empire? Makes no sense.
Yep, they will have informal ownership of that space. And, like now, ninja-ratters, macros, and miners will come and attempt to make use of the space. So, the "owning" alliance will need to make periodic sweeps if they wish. Or in other words, it's a no-mans land up for grabs--if you can keep it.
On a practical note, I point out that the mentioned "worthless" system has as much chance to spawn exploration sites or wormholes as any others, and that Dominion will provide (according to current info) upgrades that may increase the probability of site spawns. So... not exactly useless. Oh yeah, and it's easier to scan down a tiny system.
In general, we can expect that the "better" systems will still be better, but that we can actually make terminally mediocre space livable. Sounds fine to me!
--Krum
--Krum |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.26 21:16:00 -
[102]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: HeliosGal
ah so basically it comes down to lazy and fast programming by ccp and not wanting to expand the role range ingame. Thats fair enough and understandable they want to leave open the otpion for subterfuge
Actually if you want to know the technical reason about the roles. They are a bit flag, and a bit flag is limited to the number of bits in data type stored, for instance a 32 bit integer can store a number between 0 and 4bilion and some, while if the number is signed it is +- 2 billion and some. But that same 32 bit integer can store 32 flags (or roles in this case), moving to 64 bit number gives us a few more bit flags, but we are still limited so have to chose really good reasons to add a new role.
It's not so much about adding new roles, but revisiting system in a whole.
Take a look at usual patterns, as you said you did while you've been adding NPC corp tax.
I doubt (highly) that many corps use more than 3-4 wallets actively. Same with other things. The number "8" is a bit overkill.
Also, when we can get the same tools for corp channel as ones we have for custom channels? Corp MOTD, anyone?
--
Thanks CCP for cu |
Mynas Atoch
UK Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.10.27 00:24:00 -
[103]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
I have gotten the designers to agree with the compremise sugestion presented here.
You need star base equipment config role to Anchor and online FLAGs and Hubs.
You additionally need the Station Management role to offline, and un-anchor the FLAGs and Hubs.
Not a perfect solution, but acceptable?
agreed, not perfect but it will do. Thanks for taking us seriously.
Myn
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.27 01:46:00 -
[104]
Yes its omething that does need visiting but i think its low down on ccps wishlist
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.10.27 08:25:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
agreed, not perfect but it will do. Thanks for taking us seriously.
Myn
I always take you guys seriously.
When I read form posts that seems intresting, I run a few operations on it first :)
I take a form posts and run it through a de-whine filter. Then it is spun to remove the BS. Next it goes in a cold bath to let the angst, rage, and emo cool off. Finally I poke it with a sharp pin to let the egos deflate. What is left is usually an empty message, but sometimes there is a nugget of gold left. 
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2009.10.27 11:02:00 -
[106]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
When I read form posts that seems intresting, I run a few operations on it first :)
I take a form posts and run it through a de-whine filter. Then it is spun to remove the BS. Next it goes in a cold bath to let the angst, rage, and emo cool off. Finally I poke it with a sharp pin to let the egos deflate. What is left is usually an empty message, but sometimes there is a nugget of gold left.
Could you perhaps integrate this with the auto-censor? Then it would be useful after all.
--------------------------------------------------
I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner. |
HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.27 11:11:00 -
[107]
so where is ccp at we have a sudden lull in new information regarding the whole sov system. Supercapital testing seems to be done. We have early sov upgrades but next to no info or devblogs. Is ccp working on graphics or dust 514 this week :P
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.10.27 12:23:00 -
[108]
Quote:
You're also wrong. If all towers go offline sov will go neutral.
Unless this was changed very recently... you are wrong. My alliance held like 2 **** constellations with pretty much all offline pos. With the exception of 1 thulium moon.
Quote:
But you really have no idea what you're talking about. The basic idea is you have sov in systems you actually use. Not you just have sov to have sov.
Ok so you're a goon. So lets take a look at querious.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/K-Z0V4
1 person has even gone to that system in the last 24 hours. Killing no rats at all.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/K-B8DK
25 jumps in the last 24 hours. killing 9 rats in the last 24 hours.
Fair enough holding sov in those 2 systems is due to money moons. However that's the point. Nobody is going to willingly pay for the sov in these systems otherwise. As goons clearly have no interest in these systems.
Sorry An Anarchyyt you really have no idea what you're talking about.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.10.27 12:38:00 -
[109]
Quote:
Yep, they will have informal ownership of that space. And, like now, ninja-ratters, macros, and miners will come and attempt to make use of the space. So, the "owning" alliance will need to make periodic sweeps if they wish. Or in other words, it's a no-mans land up for grabs--if you can keep it.
Nothing seems to be changing though from this sense. It doesnt take a sweep to see if someone has claimed sov in your space. So you cant claim sov as a ninjaratter. So you also cant upgrade the space thusly. So really to a ninjaratter the sov changes dont change anything. The sov changes only are applicable to those who want to setup shop. However those informally owning the space can come kill you. For literally no reason. As I proved above. Even goons wont use their space. The uber broken truesec of querious-delve and they dont use them.
Quote:
On a practical note, I point out that the mentioned "worthless" system has as much chance to spawn exploration sites or wormholes as any others, and that Dominion will provide (according to current info) upgrades that may increase the probability of site spawns.
Oh without a doubt. However if you think about it. People are holding sov in space with the only value of the system is in the possibility of exploration sites. That's worthless to me considering you could go for a week without a single site.
Quote:
So... not exactly useless. Oh yeah, and it's easier to scan down a tiny system. In general, we can expect that the "better" systems will still be better, but that we can actually make terminally mediocre space livable. Sounds fine to me!
I'm just thinking that these systems really should get either fixed truesec for better ore in the belts or a crazy number of belts.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Darth Felin
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Posted - 2009.10.27 13:07:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:
You're also wrong. If all towers go offline sov will go neutral.
Unless this was changed very recently... you are wrong. My alliance held like 2 **** constellations with pretty much all offline pos. With the exception of 1 thulium moon.
Quote:
But you really have no idea what you're talking about. The basic idea is you have sov in systems you actually use. Not you just have sov to have sov.
Ok so you're a goon. So lets take a look at querious.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/K-Z0V4
1 person has even gone to that system in the last 24 hours. Killing no rats at all.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/K-B8DK
25 jumps in the last 24 hours. killing 9 rats in the last 24 hours.
Fair enough holding sov in those 2 systems is due to money moons. However that's the point. Nobody is going to willingly pay for the sov in these systems otherwise. As goons clearly have no interest in these systems.
Sorry An Anarchyyt you really have no idea what you're talking about.
Both systems that you linked have 2 belts according to dotlan. Of course noone hunt there with the current system.
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xttz
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.27 13:36:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
25 jumps in the last 24 hours. killing 9 rats in the last 24 hours.
Fair enough holding sov in those 2 systems is due to money moons. However that's the point. Nobody is going to willingly pay for the sov in these systems otherwise. As goons clearly have no interest in these systems.
Sorry An Anarchyyt you really have no idea what you're talking about.
It's too early to say that.
Right now that system has sov because its a free boost to moon mining - towers claim sov, sov reduces fuel use, then provides defense bonuses to help run the towers. The fact that the system is being mined means it is "used" - I'm not sure why the number of rats killed per day should be the sole factor in determining if it's "in use".
We still don't know how expensive it will be to hold sov and upgrade space. It could well be that dropping a basic sov claim in that system will cost less than the money saved on fuel. Perhaps the specific minerals mined there (I didn't check what they are) will increase in value with Dominions market changes, making a cynojammer upgrade worthwhile.
Uncoupling sov from starbases doesn't change how systems are used, it just changes how cost effective it will be to have a label saying "this is mine".
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.27 16:19:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Unless this was changed very recently... you are wrong. My alliance held like 2 **** constellations with pretty much all offline pos. With the exception of 1 thulium moon.
Since xttz already summed up the rest, "pretty much all offline pos" and "all offline pos" are not the same. If there were all offline pos but one, then that's fine, there is still an online pos holding sov. However, if all pos go offline, sov will go neutral. This is not even a question, this is what will happen and what does happen. Feel free to find an empty system and try it out.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.10.27 16:25:00 -
[113]
Quote:
It's too early to say that. Right now that system has sov because its a free boost to moon mining - towers claim sov, sov reduces fuel use, then provides defense bonuses to help run the towers
indeed. which is why i said
Fair enough holding sov in those 2 systems is due to money moons.
Quote:
The fact that the system is being mined means it is "used"
a system existing just so u can moonmine. Sure isnt ideal to me. Boosting them such that people can actual do something in them. OTher then the once a month activity of clearing out the silos.
Quote:
I'm not sure why the number of rats killed per day should be the sole factor in determining if it's "in use".
I mentioned the number of jumps to the system also. IF people literally dont jump into the system. Then... it isnt being used. Furthermore 500 people could jump into the system. Could be a 450 man gang jumping into a 50man gang. The system is still not being used. So thusly rats.
Quote:
We still don't know how expensive it will be to hold sov and upgrade space. It could well be that dropping a basic sov claim in that system will cost less than the money saved on fuel.
I so hope not. Unless there are ALOT of towers. These idle money cows that just print out isk with no effort at all is insane.
Quote:
Perhaps the specific minerals mined there (I didn't check what they are) will increase in value with Dominions market changes, making a cynojammer upgrade worthwhile.
I hope they make it so u can only have, jammer-bridge-beacon. Only 1 of the 3 can be online.
Quote:
Uncoupling sov from starbases doesn't change how systems are used, it just changes how cost effective it will be to have a label saying "this is mine".
That was my point. Your alliancemate disagreed with me. Also remember. The dev blog said that the number of systems controlled vs cost is exponential. So the cost of holding that system will be much higher then a smaller alliance holding 1-2 only.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.10.27 16:52:00 -
[114]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Unless this was changed very recently... you are wrong. My alliance held like 2 **** constellations with pretty much all offline pos. With the exception of 1 thulium moon.
Since xttz already summed up the rest, "pretty much all offline pos" and "all offline pos" are not the same. If there were all offline pos but one, then that's fine, there is still an online pos holding sov. However, if all pos go offline, sov will go neutral. This is not even a question, this is what will happen and what does happen. Feel free to find an empty system and try it out.
Nope. several systems had no pos actually online; still held sov. Recently had friends kill an offline pos in a system and then it lost sov. The crazy thing is that it was a thulium moon. Anyway. Regardless of the mechanics now. POS no longer matter.
My point is that there are several systems which most likely nobody will have any interest paying the bill for.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Supreme Feather
Indigo Rising
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Posted - 2009.10.29 06:50:00 -
[115]
Others that have noticed the price of having sov have gone up massively? 
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CCP Incognito
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Posted - 2009.10.29 06:53:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Supreme Feather
Others that have noticed the price of having sov have gone up massively?
Yes we are getting more balanced numbers in, they might still change. The rate of patches to Sisi might increase between now and release as we get more balanced numbers and want to gather feedback.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.10.29 06:58:00 -
[117]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Supreme Feather
Others that have noticed the price of having sov have gone up massively?
Yes we are getting more balanced numbers in, they might still change. The rate of patches to Sisi might increase between now and release as we get more balanced numbers and want to gather feedback.
Better than nothing 
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Acharan
Knights of the Silver Dawn
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Posted - 2009.10.29 07:33:00 -
[118]
Roles need an overhaul. There needs to be 2 levels that should be established on stuff regardless of if it's POS or Sov: Administration and Usage. Administration would be stuff like offlining and unanchoring said markers. Anchoring and Onlining for the corp should require a lesser degree when it comes to roles as these cannot hurt anyone except your competitors. The same goes for POS's as we have people who use storage, hangers, and other modules. Being able to add to fuel or ammo bays should go under a mid level, being able to take away from those same bays should be high level access. Low level access should be for running jobs at those POS's like research or manufacturing.
This is one of several major issues plaguing allainces in 0.0 space. Others include but are far from being limited to:
Being able to make research or manufacturing slots truly public (for profit) is another issue that should be adressed as part of the idea is to bring more players out to 0.0 space with Dominion. Without profit incentive why would people want to come out and set these things up except for thier own personal use? This would also allow more pets or holders or even nuetrals to use the space that the Sovereign Alliance is administering/renting.
Having a limit of 300 standings for an organization doesn't work, it needs to be greatly expanded. Especially an issue when you need to double up on standings between Alliance and Corporation to keep things secure. While this may be more of an issue for NRDS Alliances, it will also concern ALL OTHER 0.0 space organizations when more groups of blues start showing up that you want to use your space so u can tax the hell out of them. |
Supreme Feather
Indigo Rising
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Posted - 2009.10.29 08:11:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Supreme Feather on 29/10/2009 08:11:21
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Supreme Feather
Others that have noticed the price of having sov have gone up massively?
Yes we are getting more balanced numbers in, they might still change. The rate of patches to Sisi might increase between now and release as we get more balanced numbers and want to gather feedback.
From 16k ISK to 280m ISK for a rather random system seems harsh tho'
Great with the flag timer change btw.
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Zerakix
Minmatar
LEAP Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.04 11:33:00 -
[120]
I'd almost rather have a full rework of permissions and roles and new tools for corp and alliance management then what is most likely going to be a pointless feature namely Incarna well outside of the eye candy factor anways.
I fail. |
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