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Re-introduce mines û Yes I said mines

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mchief117	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:32:00 - [1] Ok first of all I know that mines used to be in the game and where removed for multiple reasons most being the melting of computer hardware just by trying to render them all. So I have taken the idea and modified it so it will hopefully work. The first problem is the aforementioned liquefaction of hardware due to an effective mine field having hundreds of thousands of mines. Which got me thinking in a lot of shows mine fields appear as clouds if they are far away so why not here. hence a mine field will look no more than a grey easy to render cloud of the same consistency (unlike most clouds that have moving parts) this can be explained that the area is being rendered by the computer to show the aprox area of said mines or that they keep themselves spaced so they donÆt detonate each other, take your pic. So what would be the point? 2 fold, a mine field will act as a warp barrier like a bubble but wonÆt trap you in it. As an example you warp from gate A towards gate B you unfortunately drop out of warp half way and your nav computer tells you that it called an emergency warp exit due to detected mine field. At this point you can try to fly around it around it or fly through it as sunlight speed. the second one is not recommended for wall sized mine fields as they can be quite large 500K wide or more and you will be taking hits all the way through ( and cant warp inside it ) Secondly it can be used as a friendly way of saying donÆt come here or you will die Deployment Mines can be deployed in 2 ways, through use of an ejector or through a mine station And ejector is a module that you fit onto your ship that simple drops mines into a stable location so they donÆt move but nothing else. Effective only short term as they are not maintained or replaced which will cause a cluster to disappear after a day or so or until used up (through hitting ships) A mine stations is similar to a pos with a few exceptions first its only function is to deploy mine fields, it can however be parked by a pos. once parked the player can access its management function. Which brings up a map of the solar system (like clicking on the map function). He then selects create new field which brings up an icon like the scanner probes with the sphere and not. He move it and resizes the sphere and moves it to cover the pos it is parked next to and clicks applied a new mine field is formed. But wait thereÆs nothing there. It takes time for the mine station to deploy the mines (through use of drones) and it requires mines themselves to be placed in storage. ôBut Mchief you poster of ideasö you would say ôthis would make walls of shear invincibility that would bring the pos hunts to a halt and cause general mayhemö to which I would reply keep reading and donÆt jump to conclusions To counter a threatening mine field would require a mine sweeper. This is a scriptable device that does 2 functions depending on what script it has They are Disruption û casting electromagnetic interference into a mine field will cause the sensors of said mines to become effectively blind, it may take a while but once a field is rendered blind you may fly through it as if it were not there. This is very effective as only mine keep by a mine Station will recover Destruction û fires specialty laser blasts at mine in the field reducing their number , once a field has no more mines and is not keep by a mine station it collapses and is no longer a threat
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2009.10.27 18:47:00 - [2] Would you just stop already your ideas are... Old Been covered Rejected like 10212 times already Nothing new Game breaking Never going to happen Not trying to just plain rant here. Pointing out that you have not had a single "new idea" that hasn't been covered in astonishing detail by the community and devs.
mchief117	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:00:00 - [3] Originally by: Vespoi Filar Would you just stop already your ideas are... Old Been covered Rejected like 10212 times already Nothing new Game breaking Never going to happen Not trying to just plain rant here. Pointing out that you have not had a single "new idea" that hasn't been covered in astonishing detail by the community and devs. 90% of the ideas on this forum are tossed aside and generally abandoned due to the way they are conveyed not being correct or "hip as some would say. This is the ideas and suggestions category of the forums and as such i place my ideas. until CCP tells me directly that a particular items Will never happen ( mines in this case) i will continue to rebuild and expand any idea i find that i would like to implement, and that includes mines. Know if you have ur titys in a bunch because i do post more than the average person and my ideas do not coincide with yours , you have the full of just skipping my ideas altogether. i wont mind really.
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:09:00 - [4] mines got removed for causing too much lag when deployed in large volume. i doubt CCP would revert that to increase the pressure on clients and servers again.
Sciencegeek deathdealer	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:18:00 - [5] Originally by: darius mclever mines got removed for causing too much lag when deployed in large volume. i doubt CCP would revert that to increase the pressure on clients and servers again. just gonna point out that there has been massive server upgrades.
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.10.27 20:32:00 - [6] Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer Originally by: darius mclever mines got removed for causing too much lag when deployed in large volume. i doubt CCP would revert that to increase the pressure on clients and servers again. just gonna point out that there has been massive server upgrades. and the number of concurrent players has increased massively since mines got removed. also new features got added. no need to waste new resources to bring back more load. last but not least you forget about the client side of the game. clients are lagging badly already with just rendering ships(maybe drones) in large fights. adding a few hundred mines to the picture might not help. especially since you want them on your overview/as bracket so you dont run into them.
mchief117	Posted - 2009.10.27 22:14:00 - [7] Originally by: mchief117 The first problem is the aforementioned liquefaction of hardware due to an effective mine field having hundreds of thousands of mines. Which got me thinking in a lot of shows mine fields appear as clouds if they are far away so why not here. hence a mine field will look no more than a grey easy to render cloud of the same consistency (unlike most clouds that have moving parts) this can be explained that the area is being rendered by the computer to show the aprox area of said mines or that they keep themselves spaced so they donÆt detonate each other, take your pic. ok either peolpe cant read correctly or i didnt explain it well enough , i will go with i didnt explain it well enough on the hope you see my side IN no way did this mean lets have 50 Billion sprites on the screen at any one time all it was was a grey opaque cloud. to make it easyer you could even make it a Grey wireframe of the area it is located in. if your in the field you randomly take hits with denser fields hitting more often. if a basic grey or wireframe cloud is enough to reduce your frame rate to crud then your system really shouldnet be playing eve to begin with as these are the easyist things to render( as a 3D modeler i know)
WuChiJIanRen	Posted - 2009.10.27 23:21:00 - [8] Quote: and the number of concurrent players has increased massively since mines got removed. also new features got added. no need to waste new resources to bring back more load. last but not least you forget about the client side of the game. clients are lagging badly already with just rendering ships(maybe drones) in large fights. adding a few hundred mines to the picture might not help. especially since you want them on your overview/as bracket so you dont run into them. Somewhat agree with you.I still think allowing 5 drones is a terrible idea.
Caltharian Gallente 0beron Construct	Posted - 2009.10.28 00:02:00 - [9] You think that 5 drones is alot? when i first started playing eve, with the right skills and ship you could control 15 drones at one time but the advanced version of the drones skill got changed from controlling extra drones to extra damage instead and the ship is one of the rarest in the game ( guardian-vexor )
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.10.28 01:52:00 - [10] Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 28/10/2009 01:54:46 Originally by: Caltharian You think that 5 drones is alot? the ship is one of the rarest in the game ( guardian-vexor ) All ships that currently have a 10% bonus to drone dmg and hitpoints used to be +1 drone per level, this included the regular vexor and the dominix. It was by no means limited to the guardian-vexor. @OP, Lag, FPS drop, agro issues (e.g. will concord whoop your butt if you're in hi-sec when some of your mines kill someone in low sec or vice versa). They're gone, live with it. Best chance/angle to get them back, make minefields an option in the infrastructure upgrades in 0.0. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.10.30 15:41:00 - [11] Edited by: CCP Incognito on 30/10/2009 15:42:21 You missed the main reason that they where removed. They are a griefing tool, Players would plant many of them at a gate in high sec, then jump to a different system with a alt watching. Then some poor sucker warps to 0 on the gate and BOOM no more newbie. Alt would scoop the stuff and there would be no concord because the person who owned the mines was in another system, usually dropping more mines at another gate. And they could drop enough mines to cause server lag, so the poor newbie screen wouldn't even have updated that there was a mine field before the poor pod poped and they woke up in the station. All told not good game play, and the proximity detection code not the rendering was the real problem. Modern graphics hardware has ways of render many copies of the same thing in different places very efficiently. But all the checks to see if a players ship was near enough to a mine kills the server and therefor causes lag for everyone on the node. Hope that clears up why mines won't be coming back, even though your idea is cool and could be fun.

Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.10.30 16:12:00 - [12] My idea for mines would have been mine field objects working quite the same way as warp disruption bubbles do. Same anchoring restrictions, as the empires understandably don't want random people setting up mine fields in their front yard. So with 0.0 restriction, the noobie grieving part becomes a none issue. As entering and leaving a bubble are already trigger events, a (signature radius modified) damage can be applied within certain time intervals. The effect would be placed on the ship and counts individually if it's time for another round of damage. The damage that can be dealt by a minefield in total could be limited, so one could just plow through it in a heavily tanked ship like this one. Center of the mine field would be a control structure. This would work like the warp bubble generator. More options could be determined here, if code allows, like not damaging blue pilots, refilling with new mines, determining the damage type by the mines and of course offlining the thing. Offlining could be done from outside the mine field radius if you own the control structure. Blowing the structure up will disable all mines, turning them into space junk. So enemies will have the option to either run through the field or blow up the control structure, depending on their capacities and circumstances. I think (and I am by no means an expert there) that mine fields implemented like this would cause little more lag than warp bubble spamming would. Of course one should restrict mine field deployment to prevent overlapping minefields, so people don't create Titan traps with a gazillion of the stacked on top of each other. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.30 20:44:00 - [13] Originally by: CCP Incognito all the checks to see if a players ship was near enough to a mine kills the server and therefor causes lag for everyone on the node. To be honest, I expect that this is the single biggest reason why mines aren't likely to return. Four years ago I posted a minefield proposal myself that dealt with the grief and spam aspects of it.
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2009.10.30 20:57:00 - [14] Deployable gas clouds like Recon 3 of 3
BrysonBennington	Posted - 2009.10.30 22:09:00 - [15] Edited by: BrysonBennington on 30/10/2009 22:10:50 Quote: mines got removed for causing too much lag when deployed in large volume. i doubt CCP would revert that to increase the pressure on clients and servers again. In that case lets set a limit to the amout of mines that each person can lay per skill level as well as an internal timer that will cause the mine to detonate. Level One - one mine thirty minute duration. Level Two - Two mines twenty five minute duration. Level Three - Three mines twenty minute duration. Level Four - Four mines fifthteen minute duration. Level Five - Five mines ten minute duration. When each mine has been deployed the mine can then be moved around the solar system in the same manner as that of a probe and when anchored to the desired location is when the timer will start. The timer will be displayed in the probe/scanner opertion's window where the probe operations readout would normally be viewed. The only drawback to this type of deployment would be that a pilot would need the correct type of Mine Laying Launcher associated with the level of mine deployment. If the pilot wanted to deploy three mines then the pilot would need the Meta Level 3 Mine Deployer, if they wanted to deploy one mine then they would use the Meta Level 1 Mine Deployer. For each level of deployer the mines would only activate once the last mine had been set per the level of Mine Deployer used. This will eleviate the over seeding of mines that causes lag. Another action would be that the mines would all be proximity type mines with the same yield for each type of mine regardless of the level of deployer used that where if the mines are placed with each other proximity range upon activation they will explode. Only one full set of mines within a thirty minute time frame can be deployed. For exmaple a pilot launches five mines and forgets to check their proximity to each other and three of the mines explode upon activation, the pilot would still have to wait for ten minutes for the mines to self detonate due to elapsed time or detonate due to an actual encounter before being able to deploy another full set of mines. Only one Mine Deployer would be able to be fitted per ship. Proximity Range: Level One: 2500 meters Level Two: 3000 meters Level Three: 3500 meters Level Four: 4000 meters level Five: 5000 meters Only you can prevent an Amarrian Insurrection. Take a bite out of the Amarr Join the Federal Defence Union. Wanna know more? Federal Defence Union http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Federal_Defence_Union_(NPC_corporation)#Luminaire_General
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.10.30 23:35:00 - [16] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 30/10/2009 23:35:47 Originally by: CCP Incognito Edited by: CCP Incognito on 30/10/2009 15:42:21 You missed the main reason that they where removed. They are a griefing tool, Players would plant many of them at a gate in high sec, then jump to a different system with a alt watching. Then some poor sucker warps to 0 on the gate and BOOM no more newbie. Alt would scoop the stuff and there would be no concord because the person who owned the mines was in another system, usually dropping more mines at another gate. And they could drop enough mines to cause server lag, so the poor newbie screen wouldn't even have updated that there was a mine field before the poor pod poped and they woke up in the station. All told not good game play, and the proximity detection code not the rendering was the real problem. Modern graphics hardware has ways of render many copies of the same thing in different places very efficiently. But all the checks to see if a players ship was near enough to a mine kills the server and therefor causes lag for everyone on the node. Hope that clears up why mines won't be coming back, even though your idea is cool and could be fun. calculation to see if a mine is in range of a ship is (shipx - minex)^2 + (shipy - miney)^2 +(shipz - minez)^2 compare against mine radius ^2 (a constant). So the total cost is. 5 sums, 3 multiplications. In a modern core 2 duo.. 2 cycles of CPU. Plus another cycle for the branch. Run 1 compare per SECODNS ( justify as the mine sensors need to be compact and therefore slow to react. Add some inneficiency due to cache access of data etc.. and you go to alarming 150 cycles... (being very lazy on that..and considering a very bad code) WOW what a massive cost!!!! A 500 people fleet near a field with 10 mines would cost a whooping 150k cycle per second on a cpu able to handle 3 BILLION cycles! 0.005% of CPU capability OMG WE ARE DOOMED! before anyone flame anything In 15 minutes I implemented an SSE asm code to perform that simple computation and it handled 21 MILLION of this tests per second. on my pretty old computer... You can limit nunbmer of probes in space you can limit number of mines.. you can limit DD to 0.0. You can also then limit mines to 0.0. Really easy. CCP is free to not want mines. But anyoen givign those excuses... well is just inventing excuses.
Zahorite	Posted - 2009.10.31 00:01:00 - [17] The only way you are actually going to get it to work is if you don't allow actual players to control minefields. Instead let's just add it as an advancement to the new things Dominion is coming out with anyway. Instead of players launching mine fields, alliances have minefields put in as one of the upgrades they can have to each system. These would go off whenever a player that the alliance has put at a negative standing (they determine the setting) get's to near. This would also allow different types of mine's and minefields to be put in place while also not allowing griefing and thousands and thousands of mines being put everywhere. For instance you could place mines that act like heavy interdictors inbetween different gates, this would allow defending players to ambush or get ahead of players that had invaded their territory and were then running away. They can warp straight to the next gate, while the person they are chasing would have to warp to a different point and then to the gate in order to avoid the mine field. Or they could even assume the enemy player will get caught in the minefield and just warp to the field. You could also have the standard damage type mines, with various types of damage. Although I would suggest that most of these fields wouldn't be effective at actually blowing up ships. Perhpas give them a lower chance of detecting smaller ships with a lower signature. And bigger ships would be highly likely to get hit when they went through but would have a strong enough tank to survive. The Alliance should have the option of placing minefields between various planets and the minefields would have a large enough size that they would still hit anything that went to anything orbiting that planet to anything orbitting another planet. Such as a gate near one planet to an astroid belt around another planet. This would reduce the number of mine fields. Also assume that all mines are basically cloaked until activated, so you don't actually render the minefields until they are set off, and then only the mines actually set off. To determine if a ship hit a mine it would be a calculation between ship signature and the type and stats of the minefield. Then if one or more mines hit they are rendered and the damage is done based on randomness rather than just these are where the mines were put. Basically this means only the calculations as ships go through a mine field and any mines actually hit cause any load on the server rather than thousands of mines. And in addition since it is an alliance thing you don't see mines in high sec. Problem solved and it should work exactly how everyone believes a minefield should work.
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.31 00:31:00 - [18] Mines would be cool for fast ships. You could drop them if you try to get away. The faster your opponent crahses into them the more damage they will do. They would only last about 10 seconds. An instrument to get rid of people trying to tackle your Ceptor Frigate etc.
Jekyl Eraser	Posted - 2009.10.31 11:32:00 - [19] What would be the purpose of mines? Passive gatecamp or a station camp. Trap for anyone warping to zero. Is there some more? Don't know if i like these.
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2009.10.31 11:45:00 - [20] Edited by: Marchocias on 31/10/2009 11:49:49 Perhaps mines could work a bit like bombs, though possibly less powerful. Then, they could be deployed similarly to sentry drones, with a proximity range based on an appropriate skill. As soon as something is in range, the bomb-like proximity mines fire themselves at it, and go boom. Obviously a 0.0 only tool. Can easily use a lot of stuff that is already in the game... numbers are limitted, just like drones, as the mines will be using the same bandwidth and restrictions that drones are, and will in fact be replacing drones so provide no more additional overhead at all. Mines are also then an immediate tactical tool, rather than a long lasting overpowering strategic advantage. Any takers? Edit: Also, the mines would definately require the owner to be on grid to be active. Otherwise it'd be game breaking. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Dr Karsun Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.31 12:34:00 - [21] Well, it's a good idea for a start, but I think the better solution would be making them work like bombs. A single object, maybe even a few element model, or like with drones - you can swithc off the model at all. Every ship can have one mine launching bay (only SB can use it for example) and can have a max of X mines placed at a time in space, the ammount of mines one can place can be in direct corelation with the Astrometrics skill (or whatever other skill created for the purpose). They could have more damage than normal bombs and they would have an anchoring delay (lets say 2 minutes and 1 minute for faction versions?). So - very, very little load on the server (because how many ships can there be in one fleet able to launch mines?) and it wouldn't be overpowered because... Because it's pretty obvious? There can also be restricting it to 0.0 and that it can't be placed withing explosion radious +5km from a stargate (so you avoid it when warping to 0). Still, I think they would be very, very powerful. And lets make it last up to 1h, not more and not be able to set FOF - it blows up no matter who (Even the creator) gets close. And make it pretty easy to blow up, like 1.000 hp without any resists. Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.31 13:01:00 - [22] even with a CCP rep spelling it out fot you you miss it. it is a tool for griefing. it does not work in a game with gates, and portals to other space, get it/ i used mines, you have no idea how bad the griefing was, and how many way ppl could grief each other with them.. just let this horse stay dead OK? cause i will guarentee you dolts will be the ones crying if mines ever, ever make an apperance back in eve.
Larinioides cornutus	Posted - 2009.10.31 13:14:00 - [23] Originally by: CCP Incognito Edited by: CCP Incognito on 30/10/2009 15:42:21 They are a griefing tool, Players would plant many of them at a gate in high sec, then jump to a different system with a alt watching. Then some poor sucker warps to 0 on the gate and BOOM no more newbie. Alt would scoop the stuff and there would be no concord because the person who owned the mines was in another system, usually dropping more mines at another gate. You can make more creative use of mine that does not directly cause damage, and limit their number / timer / damage. 1) Limiting the numbers of mine This is very easy. Since the mines have to actively project some sort of signals to detect objects near it you can hard limit the mines existing on the grid by saying "Too many mine and signal of other mines would confuse and set it off." 2) Limiting the places where they can be placed The strong signature radius of a star gate and/or a station is so great that mines can only be places at least 20km from them or any distance that you want. They also cant be placed too close to each other, at least not in their effective blast radius. 3) Limiting their grieving effects. Certain mines cannot be deployed in high/low sec. You cannot bubble for deploy damaging mines for instance. 4) Limit their offensive uses They also take sometimes to deploy to hamper the probability of them being laid in front of charging ships. Mines should activate regardless of what cause it, be it friendly ships or drones, effectively FoF. For this, they need sometimes to arm themselves after deployed so the mine laying ship can get away. 5) Give them more then just "do damage" Mines dont need to just do damage. They can do interesting tricks such as acting as delayed bubble. At 2.5km activation radius and 15km bubble, the target would have a hell of a time to get out. They can deal a shockwave to the ship, knocking off the pilot inside for couple seconds thus shutting down all active modules, stop ship, warp scram, ecm etc... They can also do what Bombs can already do: cap drain and dealing damage.
Dr Karsun Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.31 13:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Gonada even with a CCP rep spelling it out fot you you miss it. it is a tool for griefing. it does not work in a game with gates, and portals to other space, get it/ i used mines, you have no idea how bad the griefing was, and how many way ppl could grief each other with them.. just let this horse stay dead OK? cause i will guarentee you dolts will be the ones crying if mines ever, ever make an apperance back in eve. Maybe require having sov space to be able to launch them? That way they would not be grief tools, they would be purely defence tools. If it's not your sov space, you can't place it. And all the other properties - check my post 2 posts above this one. Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
Tyrantin	Posted - 2009.10.31 13:20:00 - [25] Originally by: darius mclever mines got removed for causing too much lag when deployed in large volume. i doubt CCP would revert that to increase the pressure on clients and servers again. Ok, so make it so that another one cannot be placed till the first one has detonated! Problem solved!
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.10.31 14:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Tyrantin Originally by: darius mclever mines got removed for causing too much lag when deployed in large volume. i doubt CCP would revert that to increase the pressure on clients and servers again. Ok, so make it so that another one cannot be placed till the first one has detonated! Problem solved! oh really? so instead of me placing 10. i bring 9 friends and they place 9 more. mines only make sense in groups. a single mine would mostlikely be avoided easily. and you are back in the griefing/lag department. and for the genius with the cpu cycles math. you know that each node handles multiple systems do you? imho ... if you want to kill a ship ... shoot it ... we really dont need those passive traps.
Tyrantin	Posted - 2009.11.01 03:26:00 - [27] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Tyrantin Originally by: darius mclever mines got removed for causing too much lag when deployed in large volume. i doubt CCP would revert that to increase the pressure on clients and servers again. Ok, so make it so that another one cannot be placed till the first one has detonated! Problem solved! oh really? so instead of me placing 10. i bring 9 friends and they place 9 more. mines only make sense in groups. a single mine would mostlikely be avoided easily. and you are back in the griefing/lag department. and for the genius with the cpu cycles math. you know that each node handles multiple systems do you? imho ... if you want to kill a ship ... shoot it ... we really dont need those passive traps. Gee sorry! It was only an IDEA!

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