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The Isk flow of EVE.

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Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Foraven on 31/10/2009 19:12:22 After watching a few EVE conference and read a few blogs, i learned something neat about EVE : where all the ISKs come from. I'm sure few of you knows how EVE economy is geared, so let me explain what i found. The only ways to get new ISKs in game is from missions and bounties (and maybe sell things to NPCs if they are buying). Otherwise, the ISKs come from other player wallets. If no one was doing missions or killing rats (quite unlikely), players would eventually run out of ISKs. Why? Because things like Insurance premium, buying from lp stores, trading/manufacturing/researching fees or buying new skills take the isks out of players pockets, reducing the mass of ISKs players can use to trade with each others. As long as you trade with another players, the ISKs just change hands and the wheel keep turning (and possibly, some players keep getting richer from it). Selling ore or manufactured items don't bring new isks in the game, it is greatly dependent on other players to spend their ISKs (if they have any). Interesting?
JSC	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:13:00 - [2] nerf pve! eve should be only pvp like the devs intended. if we get rid of pve then eve will be the best thing ever PVP PVP PVP
Amerilia	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:14:00 - [3] Originally by: JSC nerf pve! eve should be only pvp like the devs intended. if we get rid of pve then eve will be the best thing ever PVP PVP PVP But it would be dead withing a week ( the game )
JSC	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Amerilia Originally by: JSC nerf pve! eve should be only pvp like the devs intended. if we get rid of pve then eve will be the best thing ever PVP PVP PVP But it would be dead withing a week ( the game ) whatever dude, eve is pvp like it or not, and carebears must be destroyed! eve should only be pvp! also remove concord so we can blow up carebears! mission/mining is only hurting the game! pvp pvp pvp
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:25:00 - [5] Originally by: JSC Originally by: Amerilia Originally by: JSC nerf pve! eve should be only pvp like the devs intended. if we get rid of pve then eve will be the best thing ever PVP PVP PVP But it would be dead withing a week ( the game ) whatever dude, eve is pvp like it or not, and carebears must be destroyed! eve should only be pvp! also remove concord so we can blow up carebears! mission/mining is only hurting the game! pvp pvp pvp Confirming JSC is a pvp king and absolutely not a complete noob, or member of a carebear corp like "Industrial Tech" with zero kills to his name. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:32:00 - [6] Edited by: nafiy gnaw on 31/10/2009 19:35:03 Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 31/10/2009 19:27:57 Originally by: JSC Originally by: Amerilia Originally by: JSC nerf pve! eve should be only pvp like the devs intended. if we get rid of pve then eve will be the best thing ever PVP PVP PVP But it would be dead withing a week ( the game ) whatever dude, eve is pvp like it or not, and carebears must be destroyed! eve should only be pvp! also remove concord so we can blow up carebears! mission/mining is only hurting the game! pvp pvp pvp Confirming JSC is a pvp king and absolutely not a complete noob, or member of a carebear corp like "Industrial Tech" with zero kills to his name after starting the game 6 months ago. You know, he could be a alt for a really really pvp player, though I'll rather bet that I'll win the euro lotto. @ OP Actually, mission is a self-sufficient isk source + sink.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Foraven Edited by: Foraven on 31/10/2009 19:12:22 After watching a few EVE conference and read a few blogs, i learned something neat about EVE : where all the ISKs come from. I'm sure few of you knows how EVE economy is geared, so let me explain what i found. The only ways to get new ISKs in game is from missions and bounties (and maybe sell things to NPCs if they are buying). Otherwise, the ISKs come from other player wallets. If no one was doing missions or killing rats (quite unlikely), players would eventually run out of ISKs. Why? Because things like Insurance premium, buying from lp stores, trading/manufacturing/researching fees or buying new skills take the isks out of players pockets, reducing the mass of ISKs players can use to trade with each others. As long as you trade with another players, the ISKs just change hands and the wheel keep turning (and possibly, some players keep getting richer from it). Selling ore or manufactured items don't bring new isks in the game, it is greatly dependent on other players to spend their ISKs (if they have any). Interesting? Hmm, I'm not sure this is quite right, you also forget about things like Mining and Moons, the backbone of Industry and Manufacturing, if there were no more missions, players would be restricted to mining and pvp to make isk (pvp = selling the loots). Named items would however completely dissapear, as iirc, named items only come from missions and loot drops and the like. Players would be restricted to either T1 Stuff, or T2 Stuff, nothing else. So unless you count mining as an 'npc' source, the economy would still run, just be extremely boring. tdwtfever version: W/out missions and ratting, the Economy would continue to funtion, just be less diverse, and stuff would probably be alot more expensive. Oh Yeah, and . . . . . . Originally by: JSC nerf pve! eve should be only pvp like the devs intended. if we get rid of pve then eve will be the best thing ever PVP PVP PVP Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:41:00 - [8] Originally by: nafiy gnaw You know, he could be a alt for a really really pvp player, though I'll rather bet that I'll win the euro lotto. If he is, then he should post with his pvp main and avoid embarrassing situations that indicate he's talking out of his ass. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
JSC	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:44:00 - [9] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: nafiy gnaw You know, he could be a alt for a really really pvp player, though I'll rather bet that I'll win the euro lotto. If he is, then he should post with his pvp main and avoid embarrassing situations that indicate he's talking out of his ass. i got kicked from corp because of you, thanks a lot.
Oriens Pars	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:47:00 - [10] Originally by: JSC Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: nafiy gnaw You know, he could be a alt for a really really pvp player, though I'll rather bet that I'll win the euro lotto. If he is, then he should post with his pvp main and avoid embarrassing situations that indicate he's talking out of his ass. i got kicked from corp because of you, thanks a lot. ROFL
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:50:00 - [11] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Hmm, I'm not sure this is quite right, you also forget about things like Mining and Moons, the backbone of Industry and Manufacturing, if there were no more missions, players would be restricted to mining and pvp to make isk (pvp = selling the loots). Wrong. You did not get what i wrote about. When players trade with each others, no new ISKs is generated (ie printed), only the ISKs players already have in bank. But every time ISKs is given to an NPC (any fees you pay, new skill books, lp store items etc), money is taken away from the pool and players are poorer (not noticably though). So, if no new ISKs is generated, the ISKs going around is reduced and at some point, less and less trade occur because players have no money to spend. The econmy crash because goods keep stockpiling and no one buys. Quote: So unless you count mining as an 'npc' source, the economy would still run, just be extremely boring. No, because ore require a player to buy it, wich comes from ISKs players have stockpiled (unless there are NPCs buying the ore, i'm not sure). New ISKs must come from NPCs at some point or another or else the ISKs is drained away and nobody can buy anything. On other hand, too much ISKs from NPCs and players have too much money to spare and lots of junk remain unsold because everyone wants the high end stuff and prices skyrocket (happen in some part of EVE already).
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:50:00 - [12] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 31/10/2009 19:51:46 Originally by: JSC Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: nafiy gnaw You know, he could be a alt for a really really pvp player, though I'll rather bet that I'll win the euro lotto. If he is, then he should post with his pvp main and avoid embarrassing situations that indicate he's talking out of his ass. i got kicked from corp because of you, thanks a lot. HAHA, FAIL -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.31 20:58:00 - [13] PvP also produces a lot of ISK from Insurance payouts. Also some players assume that insuring an expensive ship is 'not worth it' but the value of the ship is actually irrelevant to the insurance decision. Its the expected profit that's relevant which is the chance of the ship blowing up in the insurance period x payout - premium.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 21:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Foraven After watching a few EVE conference and read a few blogs, i learned something neat about EVE : where all the ISKs come from. I'm sure few of you knows how EVE economy is geared, so let me explain what i found. The only ways to get new ISKs in game is from missions and bounties (and maybe sell things to NPCs if they are buying). You have missed the other big isk generator: - insurance payout.
Pater Peccavi Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.31 21:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Foraven After watching a few EVE conference and read a few blogs, i learned something neat about EVE : where all the ISKs come from. I'm sure few of you knows how EVE economy is geared, so let me explain what i found. The only ways to get new ISKs in game is from missions and bounties (and maybe sell things to NPCs if they are buying). You have missed the other big isk generator: - insurance payout. Dammit, I was going to mention that. _________
Wiley Peterson	Posted - 2009.10.31 22:08:00 - [16] You're missing a major point. ISK is essentially a Fiat currency. You can only sell buy things on the market with ISK, the fees and insurance premiums can only be paid in ISK, and skill books can only be bought with ISK (or LP points through agents to a lesser degree). Imagine if the only market was contracts, there was no wallet, and people could offer to trade for whatever they wanted. Imagine if there were no broker fees or NPC insurance. More than likely, the initial barter economy would evolve into a commodity-based currency such as tritanium or some other common, small thing. This article is a very interesting story of how an economy evolved in a prison camp: Economic Organisation of P.O.W. Camp
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.31 22:39:00 - [17] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Hmm, I'm not sure this is quite right, you also forget about things like Mining and Moons, the backbone of Industry and Manufacturing, if there were no more missions, players would be restricted to mining and pvp to make isk (pvp = selling the loots). Named items would however completely dissapear, as iirc, named items only come from missions and loot drops and the like. Players would be restricted to either T1 Stuff, or T2 Stuff, nothing else. So unless you count mining as an 'npc' source, the economy would still run, just be extremely boring. tdwtfever version: W/out missions and ratting, the Economy would continue to funtion, just be less diverse, and stuff would probably be alot more expensive. Oh Yeah, and . . . . . . Originally by: JSC nerf pve! eve should be only pvp like the devs intended. if we get rid of pve then eve will be the best thing ever PVP PVP PVP This is wrong on so many levels. But keep wishing, bro. P.S. - Neither mining or moon mining create isk.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.10.31 22:41:00 - [18] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 This is wrong on so many levels. But keep wishing, bro. P.S. - Neither mining or moon mining create isk. If you are an alliance leader or the like, then you might reasonably think that. I mean, all the 100's of billions you make from having your pets run POSes for you surely comes out of nowhere, right?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.31 22:51:00 - [19] Mining and moon-mining transfers isk from one hand to another. It does NOT create isk.
D3F4ULT Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 22:55:00 - [20] Regardless that mining isn't isk making, It's item making, to make isk. It's a circle. So theoretically, it's what makes isk. You do have your NPC sellers for certain items, but the higher end items need to be created by a user themselves. Each part of the game depends on one another. Take some part of the system out and the game becomes even more dull than you think it is.
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:02:00 - [21] PVE lovers talking about how important they are to generate more ISK to make other PVE lovers rich. Interesting thread.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr PVE lovers talking about how important they are to generate more ISK to make other PVE lovers rich. Interesting thread. Well, at least it's a break from the "i R PVP and u and pV3 suks!1!"
Zifrian	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:19:00 - [23] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Mining and moon-mining transfers isk from one hand to another. It does NOT create isk. It's amazing more of you don't see Matrix's point more clearly. Are some of you just being dense for fun or something? Two ways to create/print ISK - Missions, and Rats (ignoring NPC trade). Everything else in the game is a transfer of money from those 2 sources. If you can't understand that, then ask yourself where your isk comes from when you sell ore, moon mats, ships, or collect a player bounty. This to me is the beauty of EVE.
D3F4ULT Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Zifrian ...This to me is the beauty of EVE. Spreadsheets... they be sexy.
Zifrian	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:26:00 - [25] Originally by: D3F4ULT Originally by: Zifrian ...This to me is the beauty of EVE. Spreadsheets... they be sexy. I cannot disagree with you there.
Wiley Peterson	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:29:00 - [26] Here is another way to view the Eve monetary system: "Rather than imagining a barter economy that discovers a lubricating medium of exchange, this neo-Chartalist approach emphasizes the role played by the state in designating the unit of account, and in naming exactly what thing answers to that description. Taxes (or any other monetary obligations imposed by authorities) then generate a demand for that money thing." Linkage and some more links to understand the concept from a heterodox economic view: What is Money The neo-chartalist approach to money. You'll have to excuse me. I'm in grad school for Economics, and I'm really interested in monetary theory.
Amanda Mor	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Foraven After watching a few EVE conference and read a few blogs, i learned something neat about EVE : where all the ISKs come from. I'm sure few of you knows how EVE economy is geared, so let me explain what i found. The only ways to get new ISKs in game is from missions and bounties (and maybe sell things to NPCs if they are buying). You have missed the other big isk generator: - insurance payout. Insurance Premiums can never be a net gain in ISK like the OP is talking about (for the economy as a whole that is, I guess it's theoretically possible to get a net gain on an insurance payout for an individual player). It's not a fundamental source of isk b/c it's not self-sufficient like missions and ratting is. If you were to base the entire economy on insurance payouts, there would quickly be no ISK left. The only two things that you can base the entire economy around is ratting and mission running, as the OP said. Oh, and am I the only one who got that JSC was playing the "stupid pvp'er" role to illustrate how silly some of their anti-carebear whines were? I'm a full-time pvp'er, and even I found it funny...
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:37:00 - [28] Mission-running IS the isk-printing machine of Eve. And as much as some of you may hate that, it does serve a purpose.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.10.31 23:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Zifrian Two ways to create/print ISK - Missions, and Rats (ignoring NPC trade). Three ways, actually: as others have already mentioned, blowing other players up also creates a fair amount of ISK. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.11.01 00:44:00 - [30] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 01/11/2009 00:44:48 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Mining and moon-mining transfers isk from one hand to another. It does NOT create isk. Take it easy. I was just poking fun at all the big alliance leaders who makes billions on moon mining I'm well aware that it's NOT an ISK faucet.

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