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Discrodia Gallente Unknown-Entity Maru Ka'ge	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:32:00 - [31] Originally by: Zeba Wow, this topic is so old someone is using several alts to argue back and forth with as noone else can be arsed. Boring news day eh? This basically. Manchildren fighting over money-making tactics for interweb spaceships. It's almost as much of a sport as wrestling MK > You accidentally the whole fleet PL > We know your CEO's T3 fit MK > Lolwut? I will provide a rebuttal as soon as Scotty, the posting manager allows.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.11.02 01:44:00 - [32] Originally by: Jojo Jackson It's just so damn wrong that a criminal pirate gets his insurance payment after being killed by CONCORD. Yes it still is.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.11.02 03:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Well, if you like to write in any language which isn't your first one (if I check this forum, it can even be your first one) ... feel free to edit as long as it isn't 100% correct. Just for notice, right spelling != high intelligens as you can write where dump stuff with very correct spelling/grammer ;). Yet even people who has english as their 3rd language manage (hey mom, I'm on the forums!) to at least avoid spelling mistakes through the use of magic faeries. (And by magic faeries I mean built-in automatic spell checkers) So while some grammatical mistakes are forgivable, spelling mistakes are not. The internet is a fora where one has only text to judge another person and as such spelling and grammar becomes of the utmost importance. Remember kids: correlation does not imply causation, but it's damn accurate anyway.
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.11.02 03:35:00 - [34] Originally by: Jojo Jackson You throw the stick towards the miners again and tell em same think so often mentioned "we learn you to be more carefull". But it isn't the miner we talk about as he took the risk of using a helpless ship he can't realy insure to do some productiv. It's like telling the victim of a killer "your own fault, why do you sleep in your bed without attention". Not the dead one is the bad guy, the killer is! Holy hole in a douhnut batman - me fail English, thats unpossible ; Ralph..... yep, my head exploded reading that dribble you posted but if you are the miner being whacked and you state you're the defenceless person, how right can you be? Did CCP program into the game that no one can Remote Shield or Remote rep you while your mine ? I have seen a miner, in high sec, mining with an Alt with constant remote shield transfer running from a Scimitar. Isn't that a defense plan for incase some oen tries to insta pop the miner ? Or is that not a logical solution to your problem and CCP needs to bend over and take it up the a$$ from you sob ? M
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab The internet is a fora where one has only text to judge another person and as such spelling and grammar becomes of the utmost importance. Fora is plural, the internet is a forum. And, since t'was you that brought it up I'm sure you'd welcome my pointing out that forum is now considered to be anglicized sufficiently that forums is the appropriate plural in this context, which renders the use of fora rather pretentious. Your main point, however, remains quite valid.
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:27:00 - [36] Originally by: Jenni Falorgen Some time ago when i used to run mining ops from my Orca; i had one rule for my miners: Fit a tank. Yes, it IS as simple as that. Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? You need to ship me some of what your smoking cause I want to get high to. I've been suicide ganked once myself and I've seen first hand like 5 others. ONCE I did see someone survive. I even mesged her and asked how. Simple it was only one Brutix, Concord was prespawned from a previous gank and she had a T2 dmg control in a low slot. She was at 35% hull when it was over. So 0 vs 60% hull resits saved her by literally a few hundred points of dmg. Remember that using that low slot for a dmg control gimps her mining... Best part is the same guy showed up two days later with a friend and used two Brutix's to blow her up out of spite. I'm just talking about the hulk to. Macks doing ice mining might as well not even bother. If you put 2 laser upgrades in lows you have enough cpu left for a few civ shield boosters as a "tank", if you can call it that. So ice fields are like an all you can eat buffet to these gankers. I don't have a problem with the ganks being possible. I don't have a problem with the ganks being profitable. I don't have a problem with them having low risk. I have a HUGE problem with them being all three. Add into the mix that it is pure strait up grief play designed to ruin other players game. Its just a bad idea. If it wasn't a real problem you wouldn't see so many people complaining. Quote: Yes, it IS as simple as that.
small chimp	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:55:00 - [37] security status loss from suicideganks should be removed
Jenni Falorgen Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.11.02 05:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Darkdood Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? You need to ship me some of what your smoking cause I want to get high to. I've been suicide ganked once myself and I've seen first hand like 5 others. ONCE I did see someone survive. I even mesged her and asked how. Simple it was only one Brutix, Concord was prespawned from a previous gank and she had a T2 dmg control in a low slot. She was at 35% hull when it was over. So 0 vs 60% hull resits saved her by literally a few hundred points of dmg. Remember that using that low slot for a dmg control gimps her mining... Best part is the same guy showed up two days later with a friend and used two Brutix's to blow her up out of spite. I'm just talking about the hulk to. Macks doing ice mining might as well not even bother. If you put 2 laser upgrades in lows you have enough cpu left for a few civ shield boosters as a "tank", if you can call it that. So ice fields are like an all you can eat buffet to these gankers. I don't have a problem with the ganks being possible. I don't have a problem with the ganks being profitable. I don't have a problem with them having low risk. I have a HUGE problem with them being all three. you are doing it wrong. Adapt or die. Refuse to adapt and give me your stuff before you go. Originally by: Darkdood Add into the mix that it is pure strait up grief play designed to ruin other players game. Its just a bad idea. If it wasn't a real problem you wouldn't see so many people complaining. Tell that to all the baby Hulks i have in the oven. Quote: Yes, it IS as simple as that.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:19:00 - [39] A harsh truth is most of the time it is greed and complacency that gets the miner killed. Greed determining how you fit your Hulk and where you mine for maximum profitability instead of choosing both with an eye towards safety. Complacency in not setting standings to known suicide ganking organizations, mining in systems with too much traffic to effectively keep an eye on who is coming into local, and not taking basic precautions in case of attack. That was the harsh truth, now the underlying truth. This small element of risk and challenge needs to stay. Without it you would be playing a mining simulator, and that is not what EVE is all about. Do you know what the crucial ingredient is in creating a hero? It's a villain, to provide him with motivation. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Darkdood Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? Let me guess: this deadspace gear you're talking about consists of a shield booster? The one piece of shield tanking equipment that won't be of any use whatsoever in a gank… If so, then yes, there are tons of better tanks out there. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:35:00 - [41] Make thread, get the lol's. Make another thread with alt, get the lols. Make another thread with alt, get the lols. ... Topic now looks important because "so many" people are complaining. Seriously. /thread @Jojo Jackson: This is it. Beat it.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Darkdood Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? You need to ship me some of what your smoking cause I want to get high to. I've been suicide ganked once myself and I've seen first hand like 5 others. ONCE I did see someone survive. I even mesged her and asked how. Simple it was only one Brutix, Concord was prespawned from a previous gank and she had a T2 dmg control in a low slot. She was at 35% hull when it was over. So 0 vs 60% hull resits saved her by literally a few hundred points of dmg. Remember that using that low slot for a dmg control gimps her mining... Best part is the same guy showed up two days later with a friend and used two Brutix's to blow her up out of spite. I'm just talking about the hulk to. Macks doing ice mining might as well not even bother. If you put 2 laser upgrades in lows you have enough cpu left for a few civ shield boosters as a "tank", if you can call it that. So ice fields are like an all you can eat buffet to these gankers. I don't have a problem with the ganks being possible. I don't have a problem with the ganks being profitable. I don't have a problem with them having low risk. I have a HUGE problem with them being all three. Add into the mix that it is pure strait up grief play designed to ruin other players game. Its just a bad idea. If it wasn't a real problem you wouldn't see so many people complaining. One of the most clueless posts I've seen in awhile. You whine that suicide ganking is low risk yet you show an example in which 1/5 of the ganks you saw failed, do 1/5 mission runners die per mission or 1/5 miners die per rock? Deadspace hulks/macks will die no matter what the super deadspace tank, because they are stupid and are fitting expensive modules to their ship. Lastly, no one really suicides hulks/macks for profit, running level 2 missions would be better, only when the owner of the ship is incredibly rich and dumb to fit expensive modules on his ship does suicide ganking become profitable and that is their own fault. Oh and I know several miners that use alts to suicide gank the competition, now that I think about it if I were a miner I'd suicide gank all day in my area with an alt to decrease competition and perhaps raise local prices. HTFU whiner noob. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
David Grogan Gallente Final Conflict UK Warped Aggression	Posted - 2009.11.02 12:17:00 - [43] Edited by: David Grogan on 02/11/2009 12:19:35 Originally by: Oriens Pars Originally by: Vaal Erit Suicide gankers die 100% of the time and do not kill their victims 100% of the time. FACT concord DONT POD KILL gankers - thus no clone death n no loss of implants Gankers DO POD KILL miners - often resulting in death of clones with implants so your statement above is rubbish Not all miners can use t2 barges -- t1 barges cannot fit a tank and are easily destroyed in a single volley of a smartbomb aligned barges are still slow to warp out and are often bumped by smartbombing ships as they warp in suicide ganking is nothing more than bullying... picking on defenceless barges cos its easier than fighting other pvp'ers EDIT: to increase risk to ganker concord should pod kill any player that pod kill's another player. SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.02 12:36:00 - [44] Originally by: David Grogan FACT concord DONT POD KILL gankers - thus no clone death n no loss of implants Gankers DO POD KILL miners - often resulting in death of clones with implants …assuming the gankers are using smartbombs and/or the miner is AFK. But that line of argument only lends more credence to the economic warfare aspect of suicide ganking — the aim isn't to steal anything, but to hit where it actually hurts: in the wallet. Sounds like it's a very valuable and well-working mechanism. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.02 13:10:00 - [45] Originally by: David Grogan FACT concord DONT POD KILL gankers - thus no clone death n no loss of implants Gankers DO POD KILL miners - often resulting in death of clones with implants so your statement above is rubbish Valid point, if the gankers can be arsed to fit smartbombs. Otherwise, warping out in the POD is quite easily done in time. Smartbombs isn't the best alpha strike weapon out there. Gankers want large alpha strikes. Originally by: David Grogan Not all miners can use t2 barges -- t1 barges cannot fit a tank and are easily destroyed in a single volley of a smartbomb T1 barges are not as juicy targets for the gankers, also T1 barges CAN tank if you are doing it right. Obviously most people are doing it wrong! Originally by: David Grogan aligned barges are still slow to warp out and are often bumped by smartbombing ships as they warp in Last time i checked anything PRE aligned warped as soon as you hit the warp button, if that isn't the case for you then you are doing it wrong! Originally by: David Grogan suicide ganking is nothing more than bullying... picking on defenceless barges cos its easier than fighting other pvp'ers There are many valid points to ganking miners, here's some: Competition, less competitive miners means higher profits for your miners. Grudge, they just don't like you because you smacktalk on the forums, in local or did something they didn't like. Maybe they hate miners? Profit, you fitted an A-type medium shield booster to your hulk worth > 1 bil. That is worth something to them, thus you are a target! Originally by: David Grogan EDIT: to increase risk to ganker concord should pod kill any player that pod kill's another player. How does this increase risk to gankers? They simply won't pod you after a gank. Podding isn't profitable unless they wanna destroy your financial situation. In which case, podding the target is a valid mechanic. Remember, you can do it too! Also, you have a clone with expensive implants, they might have a clone with a single damage implant for increased alpha strike potential. Thus, your loss > their loss. How is that still fair? Will you then come back here and complain about them losing less isk than you are in said podding slug-fest? Would the solution then be, concord strips ISK from their wallets because your clone was worth more than theirs? An eye for an eye??? The bottom line is, suicide ganking is a valid mechanic to strike down on targets that would otherwise be 100% safe in high sec space. Eve is meant to be a harsh universe, the high sec dwellers have been given a lot of security in the years passed but they want even more. If CCP where to make killing others in high-sec impossible every single person in high-sec would suffer from the over-saturation of shiny ships with the best mods ever made. It would quickly become like this: Pilot A flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot B flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot C flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot D flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot E flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot F flies a Hulk with fittings worth 1 billion isk. Pilots A through E laughs at the "noob" pilot F because he is special. Pirates and gankers would just say: "Whats the point?" "Wasn't eve about PvP?" "Screw this, games XYZ allows me to actively hunt down my opponents. I will go there!" "What happened to the 50,000 pilots logged in at the same time?" New pilots would be like: "Plz link me guide to get 4 bil hulk in 1 month lololol!!!111one!!" My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Mr Epeen	Posted - 2009.11.02 18:35:00 - [46] Originally by: nafiy gnaw Want to remove insurance? Fine. Remove insurance alltogether so it hits gankers, pirates and carebears equally hard. Best post. Saying EVE is a harsh, unforgiving place does not make it true. Removing all insurance is a first step, though, in making the reality equal the hype. Mr Epeen
Captain Tardbar	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:05:00 - [47] Originally by: nafiy gnaw Suicide ganking has already been much, much more difficult than it used to be, from no KONKORD to 30-second KONKORD to 13 second KONKORD. Want to remove insurance? Fine. Remove insurance alltogether so it hits gankers, pirates and carebears equally hard. As soon as you remove insurance by being condordokened, then you will have a large subset of players trying to trick carebears into being ganked by concord. Either by remote repping or fleet tricks.
Lathlrilanq	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:09:00 - [48] I personally know loads of people who suicide Hulks then watch as the miner goes and buys the hulk that they just put up in the same system for a decent price, they get the fun of suicide ganking and ensure a steady amount of interest in their hulks :D
Arte The Darkness Within	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Jojo Jackson It's like telling the victim of a killer "your own fault, why do you sleep in your bed without attention". Not the dead one is the bad guy, the killer is! We really need to talk about your analogies. Stop comparing this game to real life murder - the scale simply does not compare. Originally by: Jojo Jackson Killrights? Yea, becouse this mining/industrial toon he just ganged will for sure have close to equal combat skills as this ganger. No risk again. The pirate might just lough as he got another free kill. And even more with his remote-rep-NPC-corp alts as backup. <- WTF is this allowed at all?!? Again just stupid to think about this again! So you won't even try just because you're convinced you're doomed to failure. I'm not a pirate, nor a very good PvP'er but I'll sure as eggs are eggs have a ruddy good pop at anyone who ganks me in high sec, just for the free pewpew. In all probability I may lose, but it's a game, I don't care. Originally by: Jojo Jackson For the Rookie ... there are popup windows with warnings where you have to click "yes I realy want to" whenever you try to attack somethink that shouldn't be shot. When he click "yes" ... well, then it realy is his own fault. If there is somethink, where no massage apperas feel free to petition it :). You mean to say that as you're so elite at this game, you've never cancelled a warning and been bitten by it later on in the game. Been playing for many years now and I can promise you I have made that mistake a few times at least. It happens, why should I lose the insurance because of a moment of absent mindedness.. Stupididty? Yes, maybe. Just as stupid as someone not watching local for -10 sec characters entering the system or arriving athe their belt. Why don't you just bait these guys and fight back? PS: If they use an alt to rep them, they are liable to get killed by you too... try it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Whisper "So you're going to have to do some actual thinking..."
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:44:00 - [50] Should replace CONCORD with faction navy and bounty hunters tbh.
ropnes	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:48:00 - [51] The argument that suicide gankers don't lose any money is a fair one (the sec status hit really isn't that bad). It's a bit broken that I can gank 100+ mil hulks several times a week and it will only cost me like 1-2 mil each time. I'm okay with removing the insurance payout for suicide ganks but then you'll need to nerf CONCORD. The point shouldn't be to make suicide ganking unviable
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:55:00 - [52] Originally by: Ranger 1 A harsh truth is most of the time it is greed and complacency that gets the miner killed. Greed determining how you fit your Hulk and where you mine for maximum profitability instead of choosing both with an eye towards safety. Complacency in not setting standings to known suicide ganking organizations, mining in systems with too much traffic to effectively keep an eye on who is coming into local, and not taking basic precautions in case of attack. That was the harsh truth, now the underlying truth. This small element of risk and challenge needs to stay. Without it you would be playing a mining simulator, and that is not what EVE is all about. Do you know what the crucial ingredient is in creating a hero? It's a villain, to provide him with motivation. As a sometime miner, I fully support the above message. Slade
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.11.03 02:55:00 - [53] Concord is met to get there late enough to enforce the law. Not to prevent a crime from happening. This is made intentional. CCP will NEVER make it so concord can protect you.
ScarletSun	Posted - 2009.11.03 05:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? qft
Doc Grey	Posted - 2009.11.03 07:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Ranger 1 A harsh truth is most of the time it is greed and complacency that gets the miner killed. ..... This small element of risk and challenge needs to stay. Without it you would be playing a mining simulator, and that is not what EVE is all about. Do you know what the crucial ingredient is in creating a hero? It's a villain, to provide him with motivation. QFT - And I'm a card carrying, died in the wool carebear.
Mo0seluffer	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:07:00 - [56] Edited by: Mo0seluffer on 03/11/2009 20:07:51 You guys always mess with the high sec cats just trying to make a living.You gank becasue you fail at real pvp.Just admit it. OMG i feel so good i shot someone who couldnt defend themselves and scored there dread guristas sheild booster. Yeah that makes you bad a$$ It all boils down to grief. To the op,Dont post on the forums.You will only get griefed even more by the s c u m of eve.This topic is full of them.Eve is built to cater to the bad guy.End of Story.
Yes ThisIsMyAlt	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:16:00 - [57] Yes, This Is My Alt
Ben Harrigan	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:25:00 - [58] Suggesting that people should tank their Hulks, is most likely a ploy from the suicide gankers to get more loot. It wont help against ganking, it increases the risk because the Hulk becomes more expensive, and it reduces the income because it will mine like crap. A better approach is to go with a cheap mining barge - untanked so it can actually mine. No risk, decent income, and discourages suicide ganking.
Nyxster Gallente Gatecrashers SCUM.	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:08:00 - [59] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? whats criminal is the bloody premiums. If my suicide raven lasts more than 20 minutes i want no claims discount! these insurance men are a bunch of damn robbers! ofc you do know how insurance works? All you carebears wut ride around in insured ships avoiding trouble, are paying premiums that are paid out to piwates what blow up all our ships every few minutes, so if you think about it, we are responsible for both the cause of your high premiums, and the reason you need to insure them in the first place. CCP it seems, has a sense of humor
Bay Bidness	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:40:00 - [60] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:54:30 Originally by: Vespoi Filar You missed the most important part... AND LOOT! So many of these hulks had dedspace shield boosters on that finding just a few of these makes the task profitable! Nop, you missed the point. no loot == break even, no reward but no lose too loot == reward risk? where? There is a risk the faction shield booster dies with the hulk.

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