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Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:00:00 - [1] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK?
Varilinda	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:01:00 - [2] This topic is both new and exciting.
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Varilinda This topic is both new and exciting. Agreed, lets discuss this in as much detail as we possibly can. Heck, i can start it off with... "No police force in real life will ever be on scene within 30 - 40 seconds and have the ability to instagib robbers." My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:04:00 - [4] Originally by: Varilinda This topic is both new and exciting. I was wondering why he was beating a pile of dust. Poor poor skeletal horse. Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
loony zoon	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Varilinda This topic is both new and exciting. I was wondering why he was beating a pile of dust. Poor poor skeletal horse. equinecroflagellation?
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:09:00 - [6] Ah sorry but I don't hang around every day to read the ingame news. Quote: News Pirate Corporations Band Together for 'Hulkageddon' reported by: ISD Deacon York \| 2009.10.29 19:43:27 And you must be a real hero to attack and destroy helpless miner/hauler, destroying there day and several hundret millions ISK .. as the victim just get a marginal small part paid by insurence for his T2 ship which he can not defend effective except not to undock. And then this idiots smaktalk stuff like "with no losses incurred by return fire from their victims." and "Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse."" WTF DO YOU EXPECT? Do you want them to convert in assheads like you are?
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:15:00 - [7] It's high security space, if anything the rewards of suicide ganking should be boosted and the risks lessened to keep it on par with other high security activities. Suicide gankers die 100% of the time and do not kill their victims 100% of the time. Do miners die 100% of the time while mining and sometimes they blow up and don't mine anything at all? I think you don't know what "risk" means. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:24:00 - [8] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:24:48 Originally by: Vaal Erit It's high security space, if anything the rewards of suicide ganking should be boosted and the risks lessened to keep it on par with other high security activities. Suicide gankers die 100% of the time and do not kill their victims 100% of the time. Do miners die 100% of the time while mining and sometimes they blow up and don't mine anything at all? I think you don't know what "risk" means. If the ganger know what he does he never fail to kill his victim. Even if his victim has no cargo, he get 95% of his investment back (sometimes MUCH more just from insurence). If the victim had cargo the gangers profit can be from OK to imense. So if the ganger is no 5 day noob ... where was the risk you mentioned? Ah sorry, there is NO RISK! Pirat X : "the must be risk v reward" => CCP, bring this risk and remove insurence as soon as CONCORD is involved !! Just then ganging with T1 ships would have some risk!
Oriens Pars	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Vaal Erit Suicide gankers die 100% of the time and do not kill their victims 100% of the time. uh........good For the record, I could give 2 ***** whether people suicide gank or not. They want to lose their ships, so be it. Just quit braggin like your some friggin wanna be street thug "protecting the game." psh
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? You missed the most important part... AND LOOT! So many of these hulks had dedspace shield boosters on that finding just a few of these makes the task profitable!
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 21:50:00 - [11] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:54:30 Originally by: Vespoi Filar You missed the most important part... AND LOOT! So many of these hulks had dedspace shield boosters on that finding just a few of these makes the task profitable! Nop, you missed the point. no loot == break even, no reward but no lose too loot == reward risk? where?
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:01:00 - [12] Wow, this topic is so old someone is using several alts to argue back and forth with as noone else can be arsed. Boring news day eh?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? Did you intentionally spell "damn" as "dam" in order to hold back your tears? アニメ漫画です
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Avon Did you intentionally spell "damn" as "dam" in order to hold back your tears? as I don't care about spelling ... write it as you like to.
Arte The Darkness Within	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:23:00 - [15] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. I too noticed how this aspect of the game made it less and less life like. I only play nowadays to remind me how my taranis interceptor looks from a third person perspective, I don't get a very good view from inside my pod, the roving camera broke 4 months ago and the engineer hasn't been round to fix it despite many promises. Can we also have insurance companies that refuse to pay out on an obviously valid claim, till they are harangued by Watchdog and exposed for the sham companies they are? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Whisper "So you're going to have to do some actual thinking..."
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Avon Did you intentionally spell "damn" as "dam" in order to hold back your tears? as I don't care about spelling ... write it as you like to. Always is a good attitude. Isn't like people use it to judge whether a person should be labeled as A.) Idiot, B.) Raving Lunatic, or C.) Has A Valid Point And Should Be Listened Too. Generally considered to be a mythical creature that never existed to begin with. Much like the Platypus. Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
Danks Caldari Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Avon Did you intentionally spell "damn" as "dam" in order to hold back your tears? as I don't care about spelling ... write it as you like to. Yes because intelligent, coherent discourse is overrated.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Danks Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Avon Did you intentionally spell "damn" as "dam" in order to hold back your tears? as I don't care about spelling ... write it as you like to. Yes because intelligent, coherent discourse is overrated. Well, if you like to write in any language which isn't your first one (if I check this forum, it can even be your first one) ... feel free to edit as long as it isn't 100% correct. Just for notice, right spelling != high intelligens as you can write where dump stuff with very correct spelling/grammer ;). But I love it, when people switch to spelling-teachers if they are out of arguments about the topic. Just makes clear, that they have no arguments anymore. Still, I asked where the risk is when suizid-ganging with T1 ships and absolut noone could show it to me. With the typical phrase of random Pirat: "risk v reward" this risk part is missing and we need a fix. Fastest fix is: no insurence payout as soon as CONCORD is involved. This would intruduce the "risk" into this "risk v reward" calculation.
Arte The Darkness Within	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Fastest fix is: no insurence payout as soon as CONCORD is involved. This would intruduce the "risk" into this "risk v reward" calculation. And then some noob punter gets his mission ship blown out from under him because of a mis-targetting mistake during a mission and doesn't even get the insurance back from that... fair punishment for being daft No? Well how about fair punishment for being daft when you dont warp out when -10 sec status pilots warp into the field you're in That's the penalty these players face, they lose sec status and therefore freedom of movement. They then have to organise alts to transport their ships while they float to them in pods, during which time they can be blown up. There's the risk. That it is easy enough to do is by the by, the risk is there. Seriously dude, stop complaining. I've been ganked, as have many and just smiled at the thought of it. If you want to seek vengance, you should claim the kill rights you have and use a location agent to track the pilot down and gank him back.... Mining in high sec is risk free until they insert suicide gankers... now you just have to pay a bit more attention. Is that arguement enough for you? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Whisper "So you're going to have to do some actual thinking..."
1600 RT	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? probably in space it works in another way
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:07:00 - [21] You are looking at it backwards. As far as 'Risk vs. Reward' is concerned suicide ganking isn't a risk for the ganker, it's a risk for the gankee (if that isn't a word I'm claiming credit for its creation). It's a reward for the ganker. Perfectly balanced, as you can see. Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
Ryhss Caldari Sarum A Fortiori Sanctimony of Bellum	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Cadde Edited by: Cadde on 01/11/2009 21:06:30 Originally by: Varilinda This topic is both new and exciting. Agreed, lets discuss this in as much detail as we possibly can. Heck, i can start it off with... "No police force in real life will ever be on scene within 30 - 40 seconds and have the ability to instagib robbers." EDIT: Because surely this hasn't been brought up before, this must be the first time this ever have been a "problem". This isn't real life........... This 5 minutes between posts crap needs to stop, NOW. I think not, therefore I am not.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Arte Originally by: Jojo Jackson Fastest fix is: no insurence payout as soon as CONCORD is involved. This would intruduce the "risk" into this "risk v reward" calculation. And then some noob punter gets his mission ship blown out from under him because of a mis-targetting mistake during a mission and doesn't even get the insurance back from that... fair punishment for being daft No? Well how about fair punishment for being daft when you dont warp out when -10 sec status pilots warp into the field you're in That's the penalty these players face, they lose sec status and therefore freedom of movement. They then have to organise alts to transport their ships while they float to them in pods, during which time they can be blown up. There's the risk. That it is easy enough to do is by the by, the risk is there. Seriously dude, stop complaining. I've been ganked, as have many and just smiled at the thought of it. If you want to seek vengance, you should claim the kill rights you have and use a location agent to track the pilot down and gank him back.... Mining in high sec is risk free until they insert suicide gankers... now you just have to pay a bit more attention. Is that arguement enough for you? You throw the stick towards the miners again and tell em same think so often mentioned "we learn you to be more carefull". But it isn't the miner we talk about as he took the risk of using a helpless ship he can't realy insure to do some productiv. It's like telling the victim of a killer "your own fault, why do you sleep in your bed without attention". Not the dead one is the bad guy, the killer is! And atm the risk for the killer in EvE is ... nothink. Sec status can far to easy be grinded back up even if you don't fly any ship (use alt, join fleet, follow mission flying alt as NPC don't attack eggs). So no, sec status is absolut no risk. Headhunter? rofl, as soon as you but a bounty on his head, he uses his alt to selfedestruct collecting this bounty too. No risk again. Just stupid to even think about puting a bounty on his head! Killrights? Yea, becouse this mining/industrial toon he just ganged will for sure have close to equal combat skills as this ganger. No risk again. The pirate might just lough as he got another free kill. And even more with his remote-rep-NPC-corp alts as backup. <- WTF is this allowed at all?!? Again just stupid to think about this again! I got told from some Pirates, that it is imposible to catch a non-afk hauler in highsec (which is absolut wrong, I know) ... how the hell should you catch a non-afk egg? Ilogical advice. (Same as you (Pirate) tell other this "risk v reward" crap about highsec missioning but refuse to have a real risk for highsec piracy). For the Rookie ... there are popup windows with warnings where you have to click "yes I realy want to" whenever you try to attack somethink that shouldn't be shot. When he click "yes" ... well, then it realy is his own fault. If there is somethink, where no massage apperas feel free to petition it :).
Azirapheal Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Sec status can far to easy be grinded back up even if you don't fly any ship (use alt, join fleet, follow mission flying alt as NPC don't attack eggs). So no, sec status is absolut no risk. fk off. ive been trying for three years now :( Originally by: Azirapheal i never ever thought id live to see the day.... that titans were nerfed for being FOTM HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA Originally by: CCP Zymurgist SoonÖ
Jenni Falorgen Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:55:00 - [25] Some time ago when i used to run mining ops from my Orca; i had one rule for my miners: Fit a tank. Yes, it IS as simple as that.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:20:00 - [26] Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 02/11/2009 00:22:22 Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Danks Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Avon Did you intentionally spell "damn" as "dam" in order to hold back your tears? as I don't care about spelling ... write it as you like to. Yes because intelligent, coherent discourse is overrated. Well, if you like to write in any language which isn't your first... I didn't think any language had internal inconsistencies with spelling... And the reason everyone is talking about spelling instead of the issue is, quite frankly, because your spelling (or lack thereof) is vastly more interesting than the insurance issue. Have a search for topics already existing on this and you'll see why. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:23:00 - [27] Originally by: loony zoon Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Varilinda This topic is both new and exciting. I was wondering why he was beating a pile of dust. Poor poor skeletal horse. equinecroflagellation? That's a good neologism
Syberbolt8 Gallente Knights of Kador Freedom of Elbas	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Jenni Falorgen Some time ago when i used to run mining ops from my Orca; i had one rule for my miners: Fit a tank. Yes, it IS as simple as that. [Hulk, New Setup 1] Photonic CPU Enhancer I Damage Control II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I 27k EHP. Nothing is going to one shot this, short of a BC or BS gank, and it wont pay for itself. If your worried about your t1 mining barge or indy ship, then you can insure those :) Support the DEAD HORSE POS's
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Ryhss This isn't real life........... No sht? Re-read the OP and tell him it isn't real life either since he is clearly comparing insurance companies in reality to insurance in game. -------------------------------------------------------- Also, as has been stated a gazillion times before. Miners face three risks: NPC rats* It's laughable in high sec, those NPC rats are useless at killing any miner larger than a destroyer. Getting can flipped Easily avoided with an ORCA or a hauler or taking it back to station immediately. Being suicide ganked Quite possible, can be avoided by keeping an eye on local and using the directional scanner. Also, staying aligned to a station is a good way of staying alive if ganks are expected. Conclusion Miners have extremely small risks involved when mining in high sec compared to low sec (lol) and 0.0 mining. NPC's in highsec are utter crap. No need to mine into jet cans anymore using an alt with a ORCA or hauler or ganging up with someone. Suicide ganks can be avoided. Mining, even if it's a sub-par profession can net you a steady 10 - 15 million ISK/Hour with a hulk and an ORCA with the only risk of failure being that of a pure suicide gank. In short, there is no risk in mining without suicide gankers. Thus, RISK vs REWARD works as intended. Note that the ganker faces these risks: Failing the gank They didn't bring enough damage to down the target before concord instapops all of them. Or they failed to put said damage on the target at the same time allowing the target to tank it. The target warps off in time They miss their opportunity to gank the target because the target was aligned and thus warps off before they even have a chance to lock him. Now said target warns local and the word spreads through the constellation and region that they are on the hunt for a gank. Thus they have wasted their time which leads to less isk/hour ratio for them. Retaliation They are committing a crime, the target gets kill rights on them. Next time they fly anything worth taking down the victim of the gank is allowed to engage them free of any kill rights and concord intervention. Thus they run the risk (and inconvenience of being a valid target) of actually losing more ISK than they made on said gank. The valuable modules are destroyed in the explosion The gankers are ganking the hulk because they want that very expensive module fitted to it. There is a high risk that the module in question is destroyed. Now, one could say that isn't going to be an issue because of the insurance payout... BUT! The gankers lose security status and still get punished with the kill rights on them. They also lose their opportunity to gank another target in the same system and possibly the entire region as the word spreads. They also lose out on their time spent preparing for the gank and executing it, time is ISK... In conclusion If the gankers are after ISK, they would be far better off doing something else with their time. If they are after griefing a target for the sake of having fun, they are in fact breaking a game rule and can be warned and even banned for it. If they are ganking someone they don't like, they are playing the game as intended and for that mechanic to work they have to be able to afford it. War deccing a corporation costs 2 million ISK a week if no other wars are active. It's a small price to pay for being allowed to legally kill miners but corporations at war RARELY mine AFK. Only way to actually punish someone you don't like is to gank them when they are out in their high value ships. Thus, once again the mechanic works as intended. The ganked is the one at an advantage here because he gets a FREE wardec on the target for 30 days while the ganker himself can do jack about it. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:25:00 - [30] Suicide ganking has already been much, much more difficult than it used to be, from no KONKORD to 30-second KONKORD to 13 second KONKORD. Want to remove insurance? Fine. Remove insurance alltogether so it hits gankers, pirates and carebears equally hard.
Discrodia Gallente Unknown-Entity Maru Ka'ge	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:32:00 - [31] Originally by: Zeba Wow, this topic is so old someone is using several alts to argue back and forth with as noone else can be arsed. Boring news day eh? This basically. Manchildren fighting over money-making tactics for interweb spaceships. It's almost as much of a sport as wrestling MK > You accidentally the whole fleet PL > We know your CEO's T3 fit MK > Lolwut? I will provide a rebuttal as soon as Scotty, the posting manager allows.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.11.02 01:44:00 - [32] Originally by: Jojo Jackson It's just so damn wrong that a criminal pirate gets his insurance payment after being killed by CONCORD. Yes it still is.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.11.02 03:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Well, if you like to write in any language which isn't your first one (if I check this forum, it can even be your first one) ... feel free to edit as long as it isn't 100% correct. Just for notice, right spelling != high intelligens as you can write where dump stuff with very correct spelling/grammer ;). Yet even people who has english as their 3rd language manage (hey mom, I'm on the forums!) to at least avoid spelling mistakes through the use of magic faeries. (And by magic faeries I mean built-in automatic spell checkers) So while some grammatical mistakes are forgivable, spelling mistakes are not. The internet is a fora where one has only text to judge another person and as such spelling and grammar becomes of the utmost importance. Remember kids: correlation does not imply causation, but it's damn accurate anyway.
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.11.02 03:35:00 - [34] Originally by: Jojo Jackson You throw the stick towards the miners again and tell em same think so often mentioned "we learn you to be more carefull". But it isn't the miner we talk about as he took the risk of using a helpless ship he can't realy insure to do some productiv. It's like telling the victim of a killer "your own fault, why do you sleep in your bed without attention". Not the dead one is the bad guy, the killer is! Holy hole in a douhnut batman - me fail English, thats unpossible ; Ralph..... yep, my head exploded reading that dribble you posted but if you are the miner being whacked and you state you're the defenceless person, how right can you be? Did CCP program into the game that no one can Remote Shield or Remote rep you while your mine ? I have seen a miner, in high sec, mining with an Alt with constant remote shield transfer running from a Scimitar. Isn't that a defense plan for incase some oen tries to insta pop the miner ? Or is that not a logical solution to your problem and CCP needs to bend over and take it up the a$$ from you sob ? M
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab The internet is a fora where one has only text to judge another person and as such spelling and grammar becomes of the utmost importance. Fora is plural, the internet is a forum. And, since t'was you that brought it up I'm sure you'd welcome my pointing out that forum is now considered to be anglicized sufficiently that forums is the appropriate plural in this context, which renders the use of fora rather pretentious. Your main point, however, remains quite valid.
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:27:00 - [36] Originally by: Jenni Falorgen Some time ago when i used to run mining ops from my Orca; i had one rule for my miners: Fit a tank. Yes, it IS as simple as that. Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? You need to ship me some of what your smoking cause I want to get high to. I've been suicide ganked once myself and I've seen first hand like 5 others. ONCE I did see someone survive. I even mesged her and asked how. Simple it was only one Brutix, Concord was prespawned from a previous gank and she had a T2 dmg control in a low slot. She was at 35% hull when it was over. So 0 vs 60% hull resits saved her by literally a few hundred points of dmg. Remember that using that low slot for a dmg control gimps her mining... Best part is the same guy showed up two days later with a friend and used two Brutix's to blow her up out of spite. I'm just talking about the hulk to. Macks doing ice mining might as well not even bother. If you put 2 laser upgrades in lows you have enough cpu left for a few civ shield boosters as a "tank", if you can call it that. So ice fields are like an all you can eat buffet to these gankers. I don't have a problem with the ganks being possible. I don't have a problem with the ganks being profitable. I don't have a problem with them having low risk. I have a HUGE problem with them being all three. Add into the mix that it is pure strait up grief play designed to ruin other players game. Its just a bad idea. If it wasn't a real problem you wouldn't see so many people complaining. Quote: Yes, it IS as simple as that.
small chimp	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:55:00 - [37] security status loss from suicideganks should be removed
Jenni Falorgen Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.11.02 05:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Darkdood Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? You need to ship me some of what your smoking cause I want to get high to. I've been suicide ganked once myself and I've seen first hand like 5 others. ONCE I did see someone survive. I even mesged her and asked how. Simple it was only one Brutix, Concord was prespawned from a previous gank and she had a T2 dmg control in a low slot. She was at 35% hull when it was over. So 0 vs 60% hull resits saved her by literally a few hundred points of dmg. Remember that using that low slot for a dmg control gimps her mining... Best part is the same guy showed up two days later with a friend and used two Brutix's to blow her up out of spite. I'm just talking about the hulk to. Macks doing ice mining might as well not even bother. If you put 2 laser upgrades in lows you have enough cpu left for a few civ shield boosters as a "tank", if you can call it that. So ice fields are like an all you can eat buffet to these gankers. I don't have a problem with the ganks being possible. I don't have a problem with the ganks being profitable. I don't have a problem with them having low risk. I have a HUGE problem with them being all three. you are doing it wrong. Adapt or die. Refuse to adapt and give me your stuff before you go. Originally by: Darkdood Add into the mix that it is pure strait up grief play designed to ruin other players game. Its just a bad idea. If it wasn't a real problem you wouldn't see so many people complaining. Tell that to all the baby Hulks i have in the oven. Quote: Yes, it IS as simple as that.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:19:00 - [39] A harsh truth is most of the time it is greed and complacency that gets the miner killed. Greed determining how you fit your Hulk and where you mine for maximum profitability instead of choosing both with an eye towards safety. Complacency in not setting standings to known suicide ganking organizations, mining in systems with too much traffic to effectively keep an eye on who is coming into local, and not taking basic precautions in case of attack. That was the harsh truth, now the underlying truth. This small element of risk and challenge needs to stay. Without it you would be playing a mining simulator, and that is not what EVE is all about. Do you know what the crucial ingredient is in creating a hero? It's a villain, to provide him with motivation. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Darkdood Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? Let me guess: this deadspace gear you're talking about consists of a shield booster? The one piece of shield tanking equipment that won't be of any use whatsoever in a gank… If so, then yes, there are tons of better tanks out there. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:35:00 - [41] Make thread, get the lol's. Make another thread with alt, get the lols. Make another thread with alt, get the lols. ... Topic now looks important because "so many" people are complaining. Seriously. /thread @Jojo Jackson: This is it. Beat it.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Darkdood Umm ok let me get this strait people are losing deadspace gear from the tanks on there hulks and you think there is a better tank out there? You need to ship me some of what your smoking cause I want to get high to. I've been suicide ganked once myself and I've seen first hand like 5 others. ONCE I did see someone survive. I even mesged her and asked how. Simple it was only one Brutix, Concord was prespawned from a previous gank and she had a T2 dmg control in a low slot. She was at 35% hull when it was over. So 0 vs 60% hull resits saved her by literally a few hundred points of dmg. Remember that using that low slot for a dmg control gimps her mining... Best part is the same guy showed up two days later with a friend and used two Brutix's to blow her up out of spite. I'm just talking about the hulk to. Macks doing ice mining might as well not even bother. If you put 2 laser upgrades in lows you have enough cpu left for a few civ shield boosters as a "tank", if you can call it that. So ice fields are like an all you can eat buffet to these gankers. I don't have a problem with the ganks being possible. I don't have a problem with the ganks being profitable. I don't have a problem with them having low risk. I have a HUGE problem with them being all three. Add into the mix that it is pure strait up grief play designed to ruin other players game. Its just a bad idea. If it wasn't a real problem you wouldn't see so many people complaining. One of the most clueless posts I've seen in awhile. You whine that suicide ganking is low risk yet you show an example in which 1/5 of the ganks you saw failed, do 1/5 mission runners die per mission or 1/5 miners die per rock? Deadspace hulks/macks will die no matter what the super deadspace tank, because they are stupid and are fitting expensive modules to their ship. Lastly, no one really suicides hulks/macks for profit, running level 2 missions would be better, only when the owner of the ship is incredibly rich and dumb to fit expensive modules on his ship does suicide ganking become profitable and that is their own fault. Oh and I know several miners that use alts to suicide gank the competition, now that I think about it if I were a miner I'd suicide gank all day in my area with an alt to decrease competition and perhaps raise local prices. HTFU whiner noob. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
David Grogan Gallente Final Conflict UK Warped Aggression	Posted - 2009.11.02 12:17:00 - [43] Edited by: David Grogan on 02/11/2009 12:19:35 Originally by: Oriens Pars Originally by: Vaal Erit Suicide gankers die 100% of the time and do not kill their victims 100% of the time. FACT concord DONT POD KILL gankers - thus no clone death n no loss of implants Gankers DO POD KILL miners - often resulting in death of clones with implants so your statement above is rubbish Not all miners can use t2 barges -- t1 barges cannot fit a tank and are easily destroyed in a single volley of a smartbomb aligned barges are still slow to warp out and are often bumped by smartbombing ships as they warp in suicide ganking is nothing more than bullying... picking on defenceless barges cos its easier than fighting other pvp'ers EDIT: to increase risk to ganker concord should pod kill any player that pod kill's another player. SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.02 12:36:00 - [44] Originally by: David Grogan FACT concord DONT POD KILL gankers - thus no clone death n no loss of implants Gankers DO POD KILL miners - often resulting in death of clones with implants …assuming the gankers are using smartbombs and/or the miner is AFK. But that line of argument only lends more credence to the economic warfare aspect of suicide ganking — the aim isn't to steal anything, but to hit where it actually hurts: in the wallet. Sounds like it's a very valuable and well-working mechanism. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.02 13:10:00 - [45] Originally by: David Grogan FACT concord DONT POD KILL gankers - thus no clone death n no loss of implants Gankers DO POD KILL miners - often resulting in death of clones with implants so your statement above is rubbish Valid point, if the gankers can be arsed to fit smartbombs. Otherwise, warping out in the POD is quite easily done in time. Smartbombs isn't the best alpha strike weapon out there. Gankers want large alpha strikes. Originally by: David Grogan Not all miners can use t2 barges -- t1 barges cannot fit a tank and are easily destroyed in a single volley of a smartbomb T1 barges are not as juicy targets for the gankers, also T1 barges CAN tank if you are doing it right. Obviously most people are doing it wrong! Originally by: David Grogan aligned barges are still slow to warp out and are often bumped by smartbombing ships as they warp in Last time i checked anything PRE aligned warped as soon as you hit the warp button, if that isn't the case for you then you are doing it wrong! Originally by: David Grogan suicide ganking is nothing more than bullying... picking on defenceless barges cos its easier than fighting other pvp'ers There are many valid points to ganking miners, here's some: Competition, less competitive miners means higher profits for your miners. Grudge, they just don't like you because you smacktalk on the forums, in local or did something they didn't like. Maybe they hate miners? Profit, you fitted an A-type medium shield booster to your hulk worth > 1 bil. That is worth something to them, thus you are a target! Originally by: David Grogan EDIT: to increase risk to ganker concord should pod kill any player that pod kill's another player. How does this increase risk to gankers? They simply won't pod you after a gank. Podding isn't profitable unless they wanna destroy your financial situation. In which case, podding the target is a valid mechanic. Remember, you can do it too! Also, you have a clone with expensive implants, they might have a clone with a single damage implant for increased alpha strike potential. Thus, your loss > their loss. How is that still fair? Will you then come back here and complain about them losing less isk than you are in said podding slug-fest? Would the solution then be, concord strips ISK from their wallets because your clone was worth more than theirs? An eye for an eye??? The bottom line is, suicide ganking is a valid mechanic to strike down on targets that would otherwise be 100% safe in high sec space. Eve is meant to be a harsh universe, the high sec dwellers have been given a lot of security in the years passed but they want even more. If CCP where to make killing others in high-sec impossible every single person in high-sec would suffer from the over-saturation of shiny ships with the best mods ever made. It would quickly become like this: Pilot A flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot B flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot C flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot D flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot E flies a Hulk with fittings worth 4 billion isk. Pilot F flies a Hulk with fittings worth 1 billion isk. Pilots A through E laughs at the "noob" pilot F because he is special. Pirates and gankers would just say: "Whats the point?" "Wasn't eve about PvP?" "Screw this, games XYZ allows me to actively hunt down my opponents. I will go there!" "What happened to the 50,000 pilots logged in at the same time?" New pilots would be like: "Plz link me guide to get 4 bil hulk in 1 month lololol!!!111one!!" My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Mr Epeen	Posted - 2009.11.02 18:35:00 - [46] Originally by: nafiy gnaw Want to remove insurance? Fine. Remove insurance alltogether so it hits gankers, pirates and carebears equally hard. Best post. Saying EVE is a harsh, unforgiving place does not make it true. Removing all insurance is a first step, though, in making the reality equal the hype. Mr Epeen
Captain Tardbar	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:05:00 - [47] Originally by: nafiy gnaw Suicide ganking has already been much, much more difficult than it used to be, from no KONKORD to 30-second KONKORD to 13 second KONKORD. Want to remove insurance? Fine. Remove insurance alltogether so it hits gankers, pirates and carebears equally hard. As soon as you remove insurance by being condordokened, then you will have a large subset of players trying to trick carebears into being ganked by concord. Either by remote repping or fleet tricks.
Lathlrilanq	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:09:00 - [48] I personally know loads of people who suicide Hulks then watch as the miner goes and buys the hulk that they just put up in the same system for a decent price, they get the fun of suicide ganking and ensure a steady amount of interest in their hulks :D
Arte The Darkness Within	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Jojo Jackson It's like telling the victim of a killer "your own fault, why do you sleep in your bed without attention". Not the dead one is the bad guy, the killer is! We really need to talk about your analogies. Stop comparing this game to real life murder - the scale simply does not compare. Originally by: Jojo Jackson Killrights? Yea, becouse this mining/industrial toon he just ganged will for sure have close to equal combat skills as this ganger. No risk again. The pirate might just lough as he got another free kill. And even more with his remote-rep-NPC-corp alts as backup. <- WTF is this allowed at all?!? Again just stupid to think about this again! So you won't even try just because you're convinced you're doomed to failure. I'm not a pirate, nor a very good PvP'er but I'll sure as eggs are eggs have a ruddy good pop at anyone who ganks me in high sec, just for the free pewpew. In all probability I may lose, but it's a game, I don't care. Originally by: Jojo Jackson For the Rookie ... there are popup windows with warnings where you have to click "yes I realy want to" whenever you try to attack somethink that shouldn't be shot. When he click "yes" ... well, then it realy is his own fault. If there is somethink, where no massage apperas feel free to petition it :). You mean to say that as you're so elite at this game, you've never cancelled a warning and been bitten by it later on in the game. Been playing for many years now and I can promise you I have made that mistake a few times at least. It happens, why should I lose the insurance because of a moment of absent mindedness.. Stupididty? Yes, maybe. Just as stupid as someone not watching local for -10 sec characters entering the system or arriving athe their belt. Why don't you just bait these guys and fight back? PS: If they use an alt to rep them, they are liable to get killed by you too... try it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Whisper "So you're going to have to do some actual thinking..."
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:44:00 - [50] Should replace CONCORD with faction navy and bounty hunters tbh.
ropnes	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:48:00 - [51] The argument that suicide gankers don't lose any money is a fair one (the sec status hit really isn't that bad). It's a bit broken that I can gank 100+ mil hulks several times a week and it will only cost me like 1-2 mil each time. I'm okay with removing the insurance payout for suicide ganks but then you'll need to nerf CONCORD. The point shouldn't be to make suicide ganking unviable
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:55:00 - [52] Originally by: Ranger 1 A harsh truth is most of the time it is greed and complacency that gets the miner killed. Greed determining how you fit your Hulk and where you mine for maximum profitability instead of choosing both with an eye towards safety. Complacency in not setting standings to known suicide ganking organizations, mining in systems with too much traffic to effectively keep an eye on who is coming into local, and not taking basic precautions in case of attack. That was the harsh truth, now the underlying truth. This small element of risk and challenge needs to stay. Without it you would be playing a mining simulator, and that is not what EVE is all about. Do you know what the crucial ingredient is in creating a hero? It's a villain, to provide him with motivation. As a sometime miner, I fully support the above message. Slade
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.11.03 02:55:00 - [53] Concord is met to get there late enough to enforce the law. Not to prevent a crime from happening. This is made intentional. CCP will NEVER make it so concord can protect you.
ScarletSun	Posted - 2009.11.03 05:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? qft
Doc Grey	Posted - 2009.11.03 07:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Ranger 1 A harsh truth is most of the time it is greed and complacency that gets the miner killed. ..... This small element of risk and challenge needs to stay. Without it you would be playing a mining simulator, and that is not what EVE is all about. Do you know what the crucial ingredient is in creating a hero? It's a villain, to provide him with motivation. QFT - And I'm a card carrying, died in the wool carebear.
Mo0seluffer	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:07:00 - [56] Edited by: Mo0seluffer on 03/11/2009 20:07:51 You guys always mess with the high sec cats just trying to make a living.You gank becasue you fail at real pvp.Just admit it. OMG i feel so good i shot someone who couldnt defend themselves and scored there dread guristas sheild booster. Yeah that makes you bad a$$ It all boils down to grief. To the op,Dont post on the forums.You will only get griefed even more by the s c u m of eve.This topic is full of them.Eve is built to cater to the bad guy.End of Story.
Yes ThisIsMyAlt	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:16:00 - [57] Yes, This Is My Alt
Ben Harrigan	Posted - 2009.11.03 20:25:00 - [58] Suggesting that people should tank their Hulks, is most likely a ploy from the suicide gankers to get more loot. It wont help against ganking, it increases the risk because the Hulk becomes more expensive, and it reduces the income because it will mine like crap. A better approach is to go with a cheap mining barge - untanked so it can actually mine. No risk, decent income, and discourages suicide ganking.
Nyxster Gallente Gatecrashers SCUM.	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:08:00 - [59] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? whats criminal is the bloody premiums. If my suicide raven lasts more than 20 minutes i want no claims discount! these insurance men are a bunch of damn robbers! ofc you do know how insurance works? All you carebears wut ride around in insured ships avoiding trouble, are paying premiums that are paid out to piwates what blow up all our ships every few minutes, so if you think about it, we are responsible for both the cause of your high premiums, and the reason you need to insure them in the first place. CCP it seems, has a sense of humor
Bay Bidness	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:40:00 - [60] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:54:30 Originally by: Vespoi Filar You missed the most important part... AND LOOT! So many of these hulks had dedspace shield boosters on that finding just a few of these makes the task profitable! Nop, you missed the point. no loot == break even, no reward but no lose too loot == reward risk? where? There is a risk the faction shield booster dies with the hulk.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.03 22:16:00 - [61] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 03/11/2009 22:23:35 Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 03/11/2009 22:21:29 Originally by: Cadde T1 barges are not as juicy targets for the gankers, also T1 barges CAN tank if you are doing it right. Obviously most people are doing it wrong! Best you can fit on a Covetor with 3 * Stripe miner II is a wooping 100mm Plate or Small shield Extender II. Well, show me the fitting you use for "tank" a T1 Barg please. And no, 1 bil deadspace stuff is not a valid fitting for a T1 ship! Originally by: Cadde Last time i checked anything PRE aligned warped as soon as you hit the warp button, if that isn't the case for you then you are doing it wrong! 100% wrong. Even if you are pre aligned, your ship needs to accelerate and this is never done instant except for some Frigs. LOL@spelling flamers. Espezialy the one with wrong spellings ;). Here we go, I offer more stuff where you can wast your time with while correcting it :D. For the twink-flamers, yes, this is a twink as I'm awar, that some idiots would war-dec the corps my mains are in hurting my frinds who don't even know, that this forum here excists. Would be as wrong as insurance payout for Criminals is. To protect them, I use a twink as 99% of you pirates with your remote-rep and carebear-alts out there post with alts all the time. Throwning with stones sitting in a glashouse g. And it's not only about ganging miners but haulers and low-skill toons too. All the stuff, where someone with a tiny tuch of Honor wouldn't even think about any aggressive action ... just becouse it so dam playerskill-less and dishonoreble. Just remember, this "risk v reward" isn't from me. YOU cry all the time about this stuff when insulting highsec players. So, non of you had been able to show me the RISK till now. With YOUR words: "somethink without risk is just wrong". Therefore there must be some real risk brought to ganging! As it stand now we have sec-hit (which isn't a risk at all as we saw) and not killing the victim (which just happens if you are a noob pirate). But to even it out and balance it, we NEED a risk compareble to losing 100m for a ship that can't be insured, several 100m for IMPs when poded by a smartbomb ganger, and several more 100m for losing the fitting you need to use if you "try" to get a decent tank on your Barg or Hauler. I'm sure, this will be a cool day, if gangers lose billions anytime they gang :D:D PS: instead of losing insurence or several hundret millions I would accept a arrest of 1 day peer 100 mil ISK you destroyed for the full account as soon as your ship is destroyed by CONCORD. Not only the char you did it with ;). Man, for this I even would buy some Hulks with offiser fittings and afk fly them from Jita to Amarr and back ^^. Arest == not able to undock, not able to enter a ship in space or when docked, not able to buy/sell stuff on the market, not able to accept/start contracts, not able to chat except one spezial jail-channel ;).
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.03 22:36:00 - [62] Quote: 100% wrong. Even if you are pre aligned, your ship needs to accelerate and this is never done instant except for some Frigs. Just a small point. If you are aligned properly, that means you are at 3/4 of your top speed or better and travelling towards a warpable celestial object or bookmark. If you do this, you will be in warp instantly. Of course, this means you have to stay alert. Before you break into a chorus of "We can't move and mine at the same time", yes you can. You just need two objects (or book marks) on opposite sides of your roid to take turns aligning towards. Non-AFK mining... its a revolutionary concept. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.03 22:52:00 - [63] Who is more to blaim here? The guy in the suicide ship or the one transporting 1 billion isk worth of items AFK in an untanked hauler? Oh how I love survival of the fittest
hmmv50cal Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.03 23:08:00 - [64] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Danks Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Avon Did you intentionally spell "damn" as "dam" in order to hold back your tears? as I don't care about spelling ... write it as you like to. Yes because intelligent, coherent discourse is overrated. Well, if you like to write in any language which isn't your first one (if I check this forum, it can even be your first one) ... feel free to edit as long as it isn't 100% correct. Just for notice, right spelling != high intelligens as you can write where dump stuff with very correct spelling/grammer ;). But I love it, when people switch to spelling-teachers if they are out of arguments about the topic. Just makes clear, that they have no arguments anymore. Still, I asked where the risk is when suizid-ganging with T1 ships and absolut noone could show it to me. With the typical phrase of random Pirat: "risk v reward" this risk part is missing and we need a fix. Fastest fix is: no insurence payout as soon as CONCORD is involved. This would intruduce the "risk" into this "risk v reward" calculation. The irony.
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.03 23:28:00 - [65] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Best you can fit on a Covetor with 3 * Stripe miner II is a wooping 100mm Plate or Small shield Extender II. Well, show me the fitting you use for "tank" a T1 Barg please. And no, 1 bil deadspace stuff is not a valid fitting for a T1 ship! This will add another 12 - 13 mil to your setup (About as much as another covertor) but you asked for it. I wouldn't even bother. [Covetor, TANKED \| More than double the effective HP] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Anti-Explosive Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Anti-Kinetic Pump I Now, who was doing it wrong again? That is more than double the effective HP than a normal covetor. Suicide gankers tend to only gank with what they need to bring down a ship. They will assume they can do it with just 1 or 2 dessies when in fact it takes more than that. More than twice as much to be honest. Originally by: Jojo Jackson 100% wrong. Even if you are pre aligned, your ship needs to accelerate and this is never done instant except for some Frigs. You obviously don't know what aligned means. You are aligned when you are flying at 75% of your ships maximum velocity. Just because your ship is "pointing" in the right direction doesn't mean that you are ALIGNED. The server doesn't even CARE about which way your ship is pointing. You are a SPHERE in space to the server. Originally by: Jojo Jackson LOL@spelling flamers. Espezialy the one with wrong spellings ;). Here we go, I offer more stuff where you can wast your time with while correcting it :D. People shouldn't have to translate what you say into English! Expect any support for your cause if you cannot be arsed to spell even half decently? Originally by: Jojo Jackson For the twink-flamers, yes, this is a twink as I'm awar, that some idiots would war-dec the corps my mains are in hurting my frinds who don't even know, that this forum here excists. Would be as wrong as insurance payout for Criminals is. If you tried not to upset people with your obvious egocentric attitude and actually bothered making a valid point then you wouldn't have to worry about this. Originally by: Jojo Jackson snip ganging miners but haulers and low-skill toons snip someone with a tiny tuch of Honor snip dishonoreble. Why should Miners, Haulers and players with low skills deserve higher protection than veterans with billions of ISK in their cargoholds/modules? Originally by: Jojo Jackson snip RISK vs REWARD baaaaw baaaw snip Re-read the replies to your thread. There is plenty of RISK for both sides. Removing gankers would make mining absolutely risk free. Ego much? Originally by: Jojo Jackson snip sec-hit snip not killing the victim snip we NEED a risk compareble to losing 100m for a ship snip several 100m for IMPs snip several more 100m for losing the fitting you need to use if you "try" to get a decent tank on your Barg or Hauler. Let me get this straight... * 100 mil for the ship. [CHECK] * Several 100 mil for Implants. [UHM?] * Several 100 mil for Fitting. [WHAT?!?] My hulks cost roughly 120 mil each fully fitted, i don't use mining implants. Also, several 100 mil? Lets assume you meant 400 mil for implants (2 x 200 mil) and 800 mil for fittings (deadspace modules and rigs for tank) So that amounts to what? 1.1 bil for your hulk? I can have 10 of my hulks ganked before i reach that number, as i don't use mining implants. Lets assume you make 15 mil an hour mining, thats 73 hours of mining to do to catch up to the cost of the hulk. I make 12 mil an hour mining, thats 10 hours of mining to make up on the investment. In the meantime, your ship is a juicy target and you fail at detecting gankers. I can avoid getting ganked and even if i got ganked it's not the end of the world! Stop crying! My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
ropnes	Posted - 2009.11.03 23:32:00 - [66] It won't help I ganked a 16k EHP hulk without issues yesterday
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.04 00:07:00 - [67] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Previous post full of garbage... REALLY Now, since you spent some 98% of your previous post allotment to type so much incoherent garbage i had to make another post to respond to it all in summary. You say that spelling has NOTHING to do with intelligence? Yet not only do you fail to spell, you also fail in constructing sentences and your choice of words is just laughable at best. For instance... Quote: 100% wrong. How is it worse to be 100% wrong? Wouldn't simply "wrong" suffice? The only reason you used the "100%" part is so that you can sound way more important than you actually are. This is a common trait amongst humans who cannot provide a valid argument. It's also very common among unintelligent people. Quote: LOL@spelling flamers Once again we see this trait. The lack of an intelligent response to a valid argument. Formulating your post in a nice fashion not only makes it easier to read, it also prevents people from mis-interpreting your point. Also, existance of format and at least some level of spell checking would make more people take you seriously. Right now you sound like a 12 year old kid throwing crap around you. Even if you are from another country and English isn't your 1st or 2nd language you can at least have the decency to show some respect. English is my second language, i hardly ever went to English class in school yet i can type coherently. I learned my English from watching TV at ages 7 to 13 and then used the internet and talked with people on Team Speak and Ventrilo, posting in forums. Appreciating people correcting my errors and getting to a point where i am confident in my ability to for a clean sentence. I still make mistakes but i don't tell people to sod off, they are after all helping me get better by pointing out my faults. Quote: ganging ganging ganging ganging ganging ganging Ganging is what you do when you form a team of people or participants to perform a task together. Just because we CAN understand what you mean doesn't mean it makes it any easier to actually provide any valid discussions on the subject because it's really confusing to read it. The word you want to use, even if it doesn't even exist in a dictionary is "GANKING", the act of killing someone horribly in a game. Finally, you don't seem to understand that the gankers face many penalties for ganking a non valid target. Once again, here is the list: * Sec penalty. Once their sec status drops below -5 they are barred from entering high-sec with ships. They are also CONSTANTLY marked as criminals and can be killed at any time without recourse. It goes down faster than you might expect! Getting it back up is a painful experience. * Loss of ship, after they kill you they are marked as a criminal for 15 minutes. This means that if they pilot any ship for those 15 minutes in high sec they lose it. They are arrested for 15 minutes if you like. * 30 days of kill rights. You can retaliate anywhere, anytime against them FOR FREE. If they are flying a battleship you are FREE to attack them with whatever you can bring without them being prepared for it. * Their ganks can fail at any time, costing them the modules on their ships. While they can be pretty cheap it's still lost isk and they still suffer all the penalties except the kill rights. If it wasn't for the suicide gankers, you in your exhumer would risk NOTHING at all while having a constant income from your activity. All the other activities except Mining and Mission running and exploring in high sec are high risk activities where you stand to lose a LOT of isk for the only marginally higher rewards. It doesn't surprise me a tiny bit that these people gank your kind every single day! Especially since you come here and ***** and moan about how tough it is to be a miner. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.04 00:11:00 - [68] Originally by: ropnes It won't help I ganked a 16k EHP hulk without issues yesterday What did you use to gank it though? I've seen lots of 4 cormorant ganks against hulks. I bet this wouldn't work against a tanked Hulk. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Sissy Fuzz Amarr Sissy Fuzz Communications	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:37:00 - [69] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 01/11/2009 21:01:06 Quote: Kobrakilla describes "stunned silence" as the only response of their victims to these attacks, followed by other potential targets "docking up en masse." He estimates the combined ship loss for Hulkageddon participants to be approximately "300 disposable ships, paid for by insurance and loot", adding that so many Catalysts were lost to CONCORD that at one point "we bought Jita out of Catalysts." It's just so dam wrong, that a criminal Pirat get his insurence after beeing killed by CONCORD. Nowhere in the world any insurance company would pay a criminal his destroyed car after he used it for a bank robbery. It needs to fixed. PS: and where is your highly wanted "risk v reward" if you have NO RISK? this tbh The current insurance mechanics are blatantly out of line with the premises of the game. Why are Empire insurance companies the only entities that specifically do not adhere to the risk vs reward paradigm? Any rational company would and should refuse to insure the suiciders - or better, make premiums dependent on the number of Concorde interventions for the pilot in question. To answer the question: It is of course an exemption of logic to cater for a badly adjusted - often basement dwelling - segment of CCP's customer base, lulz'ing in their neck beards and black, skull and barbwire motived t-shirts as they systematically cause grief and ruin the days of other paying customers. If there was no insurance for their ships they would be less inclined to lulz. You may be asking yourself, "why?!?". Well... you saw the HTFU video. A large proportion of CCP devs are in this category themselves and have never been with a woman (although it seems CCP may, in fact, have a neck beard policy in place? c/d). So they cater and uphold a company culture where **ing the mainstream customer off is an integral part of the product. Seeing as in dev perspective the "delicious salty tears" of Empire players appears to represent the epitome of in-game achievement. Well, that is not going to stand because it happens to be bad business (since the majority of the playerbase - and not least the potential playerbase - are not sociopaths). And also immature crap, of course. But, enjoy while it lasts. By all means. Disclaimer** All of you challenged persons; I am not interested. Quite frankly. I have heard all possible variants of the silly degenerate reasons for suicide ganking. And if you feel that threads like this are a threat to your way of life, you're right. They are. Things are going to change... no number of HTFU videos are going to change that. Here's to lol'ing at you and your angry little lives
Par'Gellen Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital Uno Chica Loco	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:43:00 - [70] The OP has a valid point. Yes it's old but just as valid today as it was the day it was first voiced. CCP's lack of "care" for such an easily fixable exploit (CONCORD gets the kill = No insurance for you! yoink) is a big problem. However, when I read "right spelling != high intelligens" I spit soda on my monitor. Proper spelling and grammar matter more than you can ever know... --- To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:23:00 - [71] Originally by: baltec1 Who is more to blaim here? The guy in the suicide ship or the one transporting 1 billion isk worth of items AFK in an untanked hauler? Oh how I love survival of the fittest Oh yea, allways the same "but but afk" stuff. You know, not beeing AFK doesn't help. It's just the same as with all your "risk v reward". Randomly thrown phrase. @"warp around in belt with Barg" advisor ... realy GREAT advice. This why the gangers even better know, where to catch you. Container A or container B. Go on, bring more useless advices :)
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:42:00 - [72] Quote: Well, that is not going to stand because it happens to be bad business (since the majority of the playerbase - and not least the potential playerbase - are not sociopaths). And also immature crap, of course. But, enjoy while it lasts. By all means. Confirming that: EVE is dying because there is risk involved in playing the game, and people hate that. People that attack mining/hauling vessels are all sociopathic. There can be no other reason. EVE is dying, just look at the declining subscriptions. All people that play pirates in a game all have "angry little lives". EVE is dying because the developers are all pirates. Quote: You know, not beeing AFK doesn't help. Quote: It's just the same as with all your "risk v reward". Randomly thrown phrase. Quote: @"warp around in belt with Barg" advisor ... realy GREAT advice. This why the gangers even better know, where to catch you. Container A or container B. Go on, bring more useless advices :) /facepalm ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Par'Gellen Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital Uno Chica Loco	Posted - 2009.11.05 00:04:00 - [73] Hmm... Well, expressing yourself in a manner that doesn't appear silly or "omgwtfbbq I r M4d!!!" is pretty important. Otherwise people will just disregard your post as mindless ranting (as I almost did before taking an extra second to think about it). --- To err is human but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Telchek	Posted - 2009.11.05 00:07:00 - [74] Gankbears are worse than carebears.Scared to do some "real" PVP.
Sissy Fuzz Amarr Sissy Fuzz Communications	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:42:00 - [75] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Well, that is not going to stand because it happens to be bad business (since the majority of the playerbase - and not least the potential playerbase - are not sociopaths). And also immature crap, of course. But, enjoy while it lasts. By all means. Confirming that: EVE is dying because there is risk involved in playing the game, and people hate that. People that attack mining/hauling vessels are all sociopathic. There can be no other reason. EVE is dying, just look at the declining subscriptions. All people that play pirates in a game all have "angry little lives". EVE is dying because the developers are all pirates. You angry or something? Try to keep focus... we are talking ship insurances. And the reason why they are still being paid out to hi-sec gankers. Not pirating. Geeez.
Trustworthy Joe	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:16:00 - [76] Originally by: Sissy Fuzz Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Well, that is not going to stand because it happens to be bad business (since the majority of the playerbase - and not least the potential playerbase - are not sociopaths). And also immature crap, of course. But, enjoy while it lasts. By all means. Confirming that: EVE is dying because there is risk involved in playing the game, and people hate that. People that attack mining/hauling vessels are all sociopathic. There can be no other reason. EVE is dying, just look at the declining subscriptions. All people that play pirates in a game all have "angry little lives". EVE is dying because the developers are all pirates. You angry or something? Try to keep focus... we are talking ship insurances. And the reason why they are still being paid out to hi-sec gankers. Not pirating. Geeez. well, seeing as how his post was laden with sarcasm, i suspect that it is you who has been blinded with a rage so fierce that you cannot see past it to notice the suicide gankers that have just targeted your ship. want a sig? thats great! post it in response to my posts!
Anonymous Gallentean	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:20:00 - [77] Our eeys and mnid preceiev words, prhases and eevn snetences in gropus and as shapse. Eevn if a wrod is vritually dsetryoed, one cna otfen nuderstnad it given the right conidtions
Draeca Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:32:00 - [78] Confirming that this is just so dam wrong.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:33:00 - [79] Originally by: Cadde Originally by: Jojo Jackson 100% wrong. Even if you are pre aligned, your ship needs to accelerate and this is never done instant except for some Frigs. You obviously don't know what aligned means. You are aligned when you are flying at 75% of your ships maximum velocity. Just because your ship is "pointing" in the right direction doesn't mean that you are ALIGNED. The server doesn't even CARE about which way your ship is pointing. You are a SPHERE in space to the server. You're right about the 75% velocity, wrong about the ship pointing. The server does care which way your ship is pointing. I can be at 75% speed, choose to warp to something, and still have to turn to point toward that something to warp to it. The turning takes some time. In the old days we didn't have an "align to" option. (heh, old days, listen to me, talking like I'm a 3 year old character). What you did is double click a portion of space near your object so you would turn toward it. (Yes, the server cared.) Or you could select warp to and your ship would turn and gain speed, then cancel the warp before you hit 75%. Yes, this will get your ship faster to warp than if you were pointing the opposite direction, even if you had to wait to speed up. But to stay truly align and instant warpable, you are right, you need to be both aligned (yes, the server cares which way your ship is pointing) and constantly at 75%. Then your ship can insta-warp.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:42:00 - [80] This sort of thing.
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:53:00 - [81] "Make hay while the sun shines" + LDSkill+LDSblog
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:48:00 - [82] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 04/11/2009 18:35:33 Originally by: baltec1 Who is more to blaim here? The guy in the suicide ship or the one transporting 1 billion isk worth of items AFK in an untanked hauler? Oh how I love survival of the fittest Oh yea, allways the same "but but afk" stuff. You know, not beeing AFK doesn't help. It's just the same as with all your "risk v reward". Randomly thrown phrase. . Not being AFK means not dropping out of warp 15k from the gate and slowboating it there. Fitting a tank means that gank brutix cannot kill you before concord shows. Using a blocade runner means you can fit a cov ops cloak and MWD and being as close to invincible in high sec as its possible to be. Personaly I have a badger that is armour tanked, has a sensor booster, cap booster, a full rack of ECM, gun and a neut. I have done everything from hauling tritainium to providing ECM for pvp fleets in it. Risk vs reward works fine so long as the hauler doesnt make it insainly easy for the ganker. Hence why I fly one of the most outragously fitted badgers to ever grace the skies
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:07:00 - [83] Edited by: Pohbis on 05/11/2009 20:09:11 This has nothing to do with risk vs reward, CCP being a bunch of yarring gankers or anything else along those lines. CCP is aware of it. CCP isn't fond of gankers using insurance to fund their activities more or less risk free. They've hinted a that before when the topic has come up. It's matter of priorities for CCP. CCP doesn't want some poor noob to be SOL when he gets CONCORDED due to some noobish mistake. There's no way for CCP, currently, to automatically distinguish between a "suicide-gank CONCORDOKKED" and "noob mistake CONCORDOKKED". Thus, the issue of potentially losing a future loyal customer and his X months of future subscriptions, ranks higher than losing a player who gets suicide ganked. Why does CCP see more business potential in a noob than a regular player in these scenarios? No idea. Could be that they think a player who would quit over getting suicide-ganked is in a segment that is more prone to quitting over other things that CCP does not consider problematic. Like getting ninja-salvaged which is WAD according to CCP vision for EVE. The noob could end up in that segment as well, but there's the potential for that noob to actually evolve into a player that shares and enjoys the "cold harsh universe"-mentality of CCP. Maybe CCP dosn't want to put that noob in a position where he has to make that call wihout having more experience in EVE and being able to see the bigger picture. Is it perfect? No, it's a paradox that in order to avoid one "rage quit" scenario, you have to leave another "rage quit" scenario unaddressed. Those are the calls CCP has to make tho. Me? I'd implement a 3 month "grace period" in which CONCORD losses are re-imbursed, after that, no insurance. Of course for that to work, CCP would have to actively re-inforce the "Recycling alts is an exploit" stance they have, adn I'm not sure their willing to spend those resources.
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:16:00 - [84] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Originally by: Cadde Originally by: Jojo Jackson 100% wrong. Even if you are pre aligned, your ship needs to accelerate and this is never done instant except for some Frigs. You obviously don't know what aligned means. You are aligned when you are flying at 75% of your ships maximum velocity. Just because your ship is "pointing" in the right direction doesn't mean that you are ALIGNED. The server doesn't even CARE about which way your ship is pointing. You are a SPHERE in space to the server. You're right about the 75% velocity, wrong about the ship pointing. The server does care which way your ship is pointing. I can be at 75% speed, choose to warp to something, and still have to turn to point toward that something to warp to it. The turning takes some time. In the old days we didn't have an "align to" option. (heh, old days, listen to me, talking like I'm a 3 year old character). What you did is double click a portion of space near your object so you would turn toward it. (Yes, the server cared.) Or you could select warp to and your ship would turn and gain speed, then cancel the warp before you hit 75%. Yes, this will get your ship faster to warp than if you were pointing the opposite direction, even if you had to wait to speed up. But to stay truly align and instant warpable, you are right, you need to be both aligned (yes, the server cares which way your ship is pointing) and constantly at 75%. Then your ship can insta-warp. I think you need to differentiate between pointing and traveling. Your ship was here: X1 You ship is now here: X2 Distance D traveled over time T is your direction V that is a vector between X1 and X2. (I forgot how to do this in math so...) The server sees your ship as a sphere that has a mass and is subject to forces applied to this mass. That sphere is moving and once it's moving in the right vector towards the gate at a speed of 75% of it's max velocity you can warp. However, the direction your ship is pointing is irrelevant. It can travel backwards and still warp. Try webbing a freighter as it reaches 30% of it's top speed to warp and you will see what i mean. You can also bump a ship into warp, try this with a battleship pointing the wrong way and then bump it and warp it and you will see that it indeed can warp BACKWARDS. The alignment of your ship is purely visual garbage. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Lythandra Gloomwing	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:41:00 - [85] Edited by: Lythandra Gloomwing on 05/11/2009 20:46:20 The problem I see is that mining barges have far too little PG to mount a reasonable tank. A Hulk even though it's a battlecruiser sized ship is flying around with a Powergrid that would be an embarasment to a frigate. 35 base PG about the same as retriever (which simply doesn't have sufficient slots to mount a competent tank) a perfectly skilled Hulk pilot is running around with 43.5pg 30 of which are taken up by strip miners alone leaving 13 left over to try and build some sort of tank. Essentially limmiting it to small tanking modules. Honestly these ships should have like 10X the amount of grid as they do. Admittedly they don't need the same level of PG as a Cruiser since they don't have to mount guns but a real tank would go a hell of a long way to making these things less vulnerable and make miners more willing to take some actual risks. You know why you see all the hulks and barges mining highsec? Because they're hopelessly outclassed anywhere else. The same applies to all the industrial ships that I've looked at with the exceptions of the Orca and Rorqual which can actuallly field appropriate tanks. Which is why you don't see ton's of threads like this with someone crying over loosing their Orca's to a suicide gank. Because a well tanked Orca isn't being brought down by a few dozen cheap fully insurable Dessies. You'd also see a hell of a lot more miners taking their barges and exhumers into low sec rather than tooling around in highsec. Then to get your kicks you oould actually try to take them out without suiciding. A hulk with a base PG of even 300 oould put up enough of a tank to survive long enough for backup to maybe have some affect. While you could still suicide it, you'd have to invest in more than a few cheaply fit Dessies. So leave insurance alone and boost the PG on barges/hulks/indies.
SK Rooster No Trademark	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:18:00 - [86] Originally by: Jojo Jackson And you must be a real hero to attack and destroy helpless miner/hauler, destroying there day and several hundret millions ISK .. Do you want them to convert in assheads like you are? ahahahah this is why they do it mate to see all the crybabies on the forums ueaheuaehaeuahe
Dalek Commander	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:28:00 - [87] Come to nullsec, and mine peacefully. You think I'm kidding? You'll get intel channels warning you long before any bad guys show up. You'll get access to the best rocks in the game. You will never see another can flipper again. And with the Dominion expansion coming every nullsec corporation will be looking for miners to help keep the ISK flowing. Get out of highsec.
Sissy Fuzz Amarr Sissy Fuzz Communications	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:04:00 - [88] Edited by: Sissy Fuzz on 06/11/2009 00:05:19 Originally by: Dalek Commander Come to nullsec, and mine peacefully. You think I'm kidding? You'll get intel channels warning you long before any bad guys show up. You'll get access to the best rocks in the game. You will never see another can flipper again. And with the Dominion expansion coming every nullsec corporation will be looking for miners to help keep the ISK flowing. Get out of highsec. Truth. Sissy Fuzz The cutest n00b evarh
Cadde Gallente 221st Century Warfare	Posted - 2009.11.08 08:04:00 - [89] Apparently Mr Jojo Jackson now hijacks other threads to spread his word about how ganking stuff in highsec is "wrong" and how "easy" it is to "fix" it. Originally by: Jojo in other thread Fastest way to make LOTS of money: camp gate between trade hub A and trade hub B. Scan all ships. Gang the one with most valuble cargo. Collect Insurence, collect loot from ganged ship and you wreek, salvage both wreeks. Risk? Non! Reward? IMENSE! Solutens? - remove insurence from CONCORD involved kills - 1 day arest (no trading, no undocking, no docking, no chating) for any destroyed million of ISK You can read his full reply HERE So, it's been a while since I've been in this thread providing any counterarguments but to be blatantly truthful no matter WHAT where to be changed about insurance. People would still haul stuff that is worth BILLIONS in isk using the WRONG ship for that job. Not only that, but he sticks to the BANHAMMER solution as if ganking was some kind of rule violation. And that's no small banhammer i might add! Quote: 1 day for any destroyed million of ISK Considering your history of HORRIBLE sentence building i PRAY you meant that if the gank cost the victim more than 1 million in isk that would give the ganker a 1 day of not being able to play the game. (Which can be circumvented BTW in many ways) If you meant the other way around, 1 day PER million ISK in damage that means ganking a freighter with 1 billion in cargo would give that player a 2 year, 8 months and 30 days ban. No matter which way you put it, it's completely SILLY and you have no connection to reality because obviously EvE is more real to you than anything else. EvE IS A GAME! Ganking isn't a problem at all, it's a valid mechanic that CCP endorses to keep things in motion, if there where no gankers we would be in serious trouble as every high-sec operator would be able to avoid loss in any way. Removing insurance completely would only mean that haulers would lose MORE when they are ganked as the gankers need to cover their cost of their lost ships. So if the victim lost more to a gank he would be even MORE likely to emo rage quit from the game. Now, stop being silly and stop hijacking other threads with your nonsense! My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Beckoner Venhatha	Posted - 2009.11.08 08:46:00 - [90] 1. Suicide ganking is valid as a strategy. However, insurance payout for criminal flagged sec -ve should be reduced/cancelled (what society rewards criminal activities?). This would be a minor hit to the gankers as how much is a cheap fit dessie? 2. If you solo mine in a hulk... prepare to tank and be prepared to lose it. (If you couldn't insure your car, you'd be a damn sight more careful with it, fit it with rubber bumpers or buy a cheaper car) If you dont want to tank, mine as a group; have someone keep an eye on local, have another hauling stuffs etc... in other words play the damn game.

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