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Halloween shiploss- why not concordokken?

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My Postman	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:44:00 - [1] Dear C&P community, this needs to be dealt with Following happend: I was mining in my retriever when a canflipper in an arazu showed up and flipped can. As i know the mechanism about canflipping i did not touch the yellow can - instead docked at station. A few minutes later i came back in my itty to see if there is something left, but my can was gone (assume he popped it), only the yellow can and some wrecks from rats i popped while mining was there, and a yellow wreck he popped, while i had aggro from this rat while he showed up. He was gone as well (or cloaked as i assumed afterwards). Ok, back to station, getting into my dessy, and back to salvage the wrecks i shot. I locked a grey wreck - put tractor on - started salvaging - and bang it goes, he startet shooting at me. So i did take the damage and waited for concord to arrive (highsec 0.8). He needed probably 6 volleys, at least more than 10 sec. and there was NO concord action. After docking in my pod we had a convo, he even would give me things back he looted from my dessy, but would not tell me why he was not concordokken. I¦m sure something must happend to make me red for him - who would suicide a 100m ship to a catalyst, and again i¦m sure i did nothing to make me red. Can anyone imagine what happend? Thanks!
Zillaby Trypp	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:03:00 - [2] I can imagine that CCP realised that you have no life by paying a monthly subscription to mine in high sec and set you red to the whole of eve for your shameful actions. Thus giving the Arazu the perfect opportunity of relinquishing yourself of said ship.
jimmyjam Gallente Sinner Among Saints Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:06:00 - [3] Originally by: My Postman Dear C&P community, this needs to be dealt with Following happend: I was mining in my retriever when a canflipper in an arazu showed up and flipped can. As i know the mechanism about canflipping i did not touch the yellow can - instead docked at station. A few minutes later i came back in my itty to see if there is something left, but my can was gone (assume he popped it), only the yellow can and some wrecks from rats i popped while mining was there, and a yellow wreck he popped, while i had aggro from this rat while he showed up. He was gone as well (or cloaked as i assumed afterwards). Ok, back to station, getting into my dessy, and back to salvage the wrecks i shot. I locked a grey wreck - put tractor on - started salvaging - and bang it goes, he startet shooting at me. So i did take the damage and waited for concord to arrive (highsec 0.8). He needed probably 6 volleys, at least more than 10 sec. and there was NO concord action. After docking in my pod we had a convo, he even would give me things back he looted from my dessy, but would not tell me why he was not concordokken. I¦m sure something must happend to make me red for him - who would suicide a 100m ship to a catalyst, and again i¦m sure i did nothing to make me red. Can anyone imagine what happend? Thanks! i will go ahead and say it no one cares.
Aramar Morkai	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:18:00 - [4] A friend of mine had a instance where a pirate was able to shoot at him and destroyed his ship after NOT falling prey to the can-flippers tricks. It caught us by total surprise because we had just spent an hour testing various things trying to figure out what can and cant be done to someone elseÆs can without getting Aggro/concorded, so we understood what the can-flipper could and couldnÆt do. This is making me wonder if there is an exploit/loophole that some can-flippers have uncovered thatÆs allowing them to shoot without concord interfering. Perhaps petition/bug this and at least have the devs look and see if there is a bug that can-flippers are exploiting. Is there any way you might have looted a wreck of his? If you have the warning about theft turned off it could be possible, and be worth checking. That is one of the few warning messages I leave active.
Elldranga	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:29:00 - [5] I find myself wondering... is it possible for him to put loot in your cans? If so, and you take it... does that cause aggro? I know he can't do it into a wreck, but can he put loot into your can? Also... did you at any point in the equation/switching ships out have drones out? There are ways to get aggro via drones.
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:53:00 - [6] Originally by: My Postman again i¦m sure i did nothing to make me red. Did you take something from your own can as he was stealing? There used to be a bug where the first one to get a hold on s stack (clicking on it) would get ownership, and the second one would be flagged as a thief. The bug could very well still exist... -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
Aramar Morkai	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Elldranga I find myself wondering... is it possible for him to put loot in your cans? If so, and you take it... does that cause aggro? I know he can't do it into a wreck, but can he put loot into your can? Also... did you at any point in the equation/switching ships out have drones out? There are ways to get aggro via drones. This is one of the first things my friend and I tested.. You can NOT put anything into someone elses can, if you try it errors out.
Benedict Carol	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Aramar Morkai Originally by: Elldranga I find myself wondering... is it possible for him to put loot in your cans? If so, and you take it... does that cause aggro? I know he can't do it into a wreck, but can he put loot into your can? Also... did you at any point in the equation/switching ships out have drones out? There are ways to get aggro via drones. This is one of the first things my friend and I tested.. You can NOT put anything into someone elses can, if you try it errors out. That's not true if they're #1) in your fleet #2) in your corp #3) have highest possible standings.
Aramar Morkai	Posted - 2009.11.02 17:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Benedict Carol Originally by: Aramar Morkai Originally by: Elldranga I find myself wondering... is it possible for him to put loot in your cans? If so, and you take it... does that cause aggro? I know he can't do it into a wreck, but can he put loot into your can? Also... did you at any point in the equation/switching ships out have drones out? There are ways to get aggro via drones. This is one of the first things my friend and I tested.. You can NOT put anything into someone elses can, if you try it errors out. That's not true if they're #1) in your fleet #2) in your corp #3) have highest possible standings. I would assume the OP wouldnt let a can-flipper into his fleet, wouldnt be flipped by a corpie, and not set standings on the rat to the highest possible. I know I wouldnt do that myself. Not relavent to this situation but I am intrigued by the standing... may need to test that myself.
Syekuda State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.11.02 18:39:00 - [10] from my knowledge on that (I'm not in that empire griefing wussy thing) - I prefer to go in null sec or low and shoot someone instead. He can shoot you when you take the loot from his can. so perhaps thats what you did at one point and didn't notice. At that point, your suppose to go red and he can "legally" shoot you.
Kalen Vox Veyr The Veyr Collective	Posted - 2009.11.02 18:48:00 - [11] If you accidentally shot at his rat wreck or his can, he would be able to shoot you then.
River' Tam	Posted - 2009.11.02 20:17:00 - [12] Edited by: River'' Tam on 02/11/2009 20:18:09 edit: whoops, why is it possible to post without having written anything? what i was about to say: recently i got aggro on random people for no reason. somethings going on here.
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2009.11.02 20:47:00 - [13] Originally by: River' Tam Edited by: River'' Tam on 02/11/2009 20:18:09 edit: whoops, why is it possible to post without having written anything? what i was about to say: recently i got aggro on random people for no reason. somethings going on here. As in they start shooting you and not get concorded or they're just red all of a sudden?
Xious Caldari Phaze-9 Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:43:00 - [14] I assume you tractored one of the wrecks he killed? If so you'd gain aggro by putting the tractor beam on it. ---------------------------------
Joe SMASH	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:05:00 - [15] Edited by: Joe SMASH on 03/11/2009 00:05:43 Originally by: Xious I assume you tractored one of the wrecks he killed? If so you'd gain aggro by putting the tractor beam on it. Cannot tractor a wreck you did not make. If ya could, why would ninja salvagers bother having a fast ship? ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Xious I assume you tractored one of the wrecks he killed? If so you'd gain aggro by putting the tractor beam on it. You cannot tractor wrecks that don't belong to you.
Agent77	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:39:00 - [17] did you have drones out that may have accidentally aggresed? only thing i can think of
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:47:00 - [18] 2 options; - you opened his can/wreck and hit "stack all", this flags you for some reason (dunno when this changed but it happened to me not too long ago) - you took form your can/wreck at the same time he did, flagging you. Even with the "are you sure" message in place you won't get said message and you'll simply be flagged. Afaik there are no other options than these 2 IF things happened as you stated (you didn't agress him or took from his can/wreck). ----------- ADM-I
babyKOSMOS Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.11.03 08:21:00 - [19] there is a problem with the red somewhere. while mining in Algogille, (at an approximate age of... 3 days? about 4 days ago) I was invited to private by a random person. He then proceeded to ask me why I was red to him, I could offer no reason in response. I (in my little navitas) was mortified to hear that as I knew my little ship wouldn't last more than a couple seconds against anything bigger than the asteroids I was poking holes in. After telling me he disliked pvp I ran off to hide in Couster. The only time anything to do with Jettisoned canisters had occured with respect to me was a few hours after starting the game. A Tristan pilot took all the ore from my three canisters and put it into one of his own, making him red to me. I knew what this was though I didn't shoot (even with only a couple hours experience under my belt I knew, Tristan>Navitas, a while later, he was back to not being red. So I'm relatively sure I know the INTENDED mechanics of Jettisoned canister theft, but this was someone I hadn't even seen before. I didn't report it or anything, maybe I should. Haven't seen him since though.
My Postman	Posted - 2009.11.03 10:10:00 - [20] Thanks for the lot of input, dear C&P community, still i assume there are strange things going on, let me explain. @Armar I was mining alone (no fleet). When he canflipped and i got off with my retriever he convod: He: "Invite me into fleet" Me: "You must be nuts" As i know that hitting the self distruction button causes the same. @Lubomir: Well i had the can open while mining, but no i did not take out... @ Agent 77: i might have my drones out (can¦t remember), but if my drones would have caused aggro, why did he not shoot my retriever, instead waiting me to come back. So i don¦t think it was a drone thing. Aa far as that i did petition it, and got following message from GM someone telling me that I was stealing ore from HIS can causing aggro. I¦m VERY sure i did not open a can (not even mine) after canflipping, so as i said - strange things are going on out there. But as jimmyjam said lets just go on. It only was a dessy and i did¦nt care very much, just wondering game mechanics. Again thanks to the community!
Tirus Sinobi	Posted - 2009.11.03 11:41:00 - [21] Quote: I can imagine that CCP realised that you have no life by paying a monthly subscription to mine in high sec and set you red to the whole of eve for your shameful actions. Thus giving the Arazu the perfect opportunity of relinquishing yourself of said ship. Oh damn if only they monitored the forums on the same criteria I wouldnt have had to read your post. Quote: i will go ahead and say it no one cares. Except you, who took the time to read and reply here but didnt spare the intelligence to do either well. To the OP I would recommend petitioning it, at the least maybe that will help you understand what happened, even if you dont get re-imbursed or anything, its not completely unlikely that this was due to some kind of bug or exploit in mechanics, tell-tale by the fact that the person who shot you didnt seem to know how he did it either or would not tell you how he did it. Good luck with it
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.03 11:43:00 - [22] Fleet doesn't change anything regarding aggression, and the Lofty thing was changed ages ago. Based on your last post I'm gonna go with the "you took from your can the exact same time here did, flagging you" because the GM's reply is consistent with what my 'customers' get when I pull that trick on them. ----------- ADM-I
Francine Aurous	Posted - 2009.11.03 13:29:00 - [23] Check you log file to see what actually happened.
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2009.11.03 13:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Marko Riva Fleet doesn't change anything regarding aggression, and the Lofty thing was changed ages ago. Based on your last post I'm gonna go with the "you took from your can the exact same time here did, flagging you" because the GM's reply is consistent with what my 'customers' get when I pull that trick on them. That's kind of interesting, I ran into a miner in Korama that got his ass blown up a few months ago, he said pretty much the same thing, he didn't take from anyone's can...he couldn't figure out the aggro at all... Which if this is the case, and the OP has the warnings enabled for theft then he should have gotten a message about stealing if it was going to aggro him. If I were the OP, I would check that he has those messages enabled and report a bug on the issue. That particular mechanic doesn't sound exactly kosher...
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.03 13:56:00 - [25] It's not kosher but has been ingame for uhm forever I guess. I've asked/told people to petition any losses to me that happened because of that, each and every time the reply was "kill was legit, you took from his can". Now I like getting kills and I like 'outsmarting' people but I don't like exploiting (I petitioned myself for doing it even, just to force a reply) but the thing is that you can't help it. You can ofcourse try and time it correctly but you're still dependant on the other guy making his move. The issue comes from the fact that codewise things mess up when the timing is right meaning you won't get the warning message and you won't even notice apart from getting a timer. I did get some juicy targets with I must admit :P ----------- ADM-I
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.03 15:34:00 - [26] Edited by: Stratio on 03/11/2009 15:35:15 Originally by: My Postman @ Agent 77: i might have my drones out (can¦t remember), but if my drones would have caused aggro, why did he not shoot my retriever, instead waiting me to come back. So i don¦t think it was a drone thing. Do you have your drones on aggressive or passive? I'm not certain when drones will attack another ship but was he yellow-boxing you? _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Marko Riva It's not kosher but has been ingame for uhm forever I guess. I've asked/told people to petition any losses to me that happened because of that, each and every time the reply was "kill was legit, you took from his can". Now I like getting kills and I like 'outsmarting' people but I don't like exploiting (I petitioned myself for doing it even, just to force a reply) but the thing is that you can't help it. You can ofcourse try and time it correctly but you're still dependant on the other guy making his move. The issue comes from the fact that codewise things mess up when the timing is right meaning you won't get the warning message and you won't even notice apart from getting a timer. I did get some juicy targets with I must admit :P Think I might experiment with a throw away alt (on myself) later.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:25:00 - [28] Yell if you need help with that, there's some 'techniques' that help ----------- ADM-I
My Postman	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:31:00 - [29] Again thanks for the input. As i told you i did petition it, GM Kuunal told me I was stealing from HIS can. That makes me wonder cause when after canflipping i came back in my itty and did NOT find my (white) jetcan anymore - there was only the flipped YELLOW can left, and i did not touch it. As my itty has no salvage gear on it i changed into my dessy, came back and locked a (grey) wreck to salvage (didnt even loot). As i told you i did¦nt see my opponent there (sure he was there cloaked), than it went along quick - scramble - bang! I explained it once more to GM Kuunal that i did¦nt touch any can after the flipping, explanation stayed the same - I stole ore from his can. Anyway if the logs of the GM tells so, that¦s ok to me, i just don¦t understand it. And as there is no need to get this cheap dessy replaced, today i will tell the GM to close the peti. @ Francine: My logs say nothing to solve the problem, as even the GM¦s file say above mentioned. @ Stratio: My drones are on passive as i never AFK mine (beside of going to toilet :)). Don¦t know what you mean with "yellow-boxing".Please explain. So what have we (miners) learned from it? There might be "tricks" (as one of the above honoured canflippers said) giving aggro to one without making some foults (as far as i know about the game mechanics). To explain: As i always stay alligned to station (or safespot), i just only did¦nt escape the first moment was, because i know you won¦t suicide a 5m retriever with a 100m arazu. I will change my behavior because of "wired" game mechanics now, and the heck, i won¦t come back to observe whats happend, and wait the 15min timer, and than go elsewhere. Again thanks for the noumerous - without any flaming (what wonders me, but still makes me thankful) answers.
Jake McCord Minmatar McCord Industries	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:02:00 - [30] I think, the key thing here is this, EVEN IF you don't think you aggroed someone who's shooting at you, once they start shooting, you can and SHOULD shoot back, if at all possible. The ship you save, may be your own. And besides, if he does get concorded, you'll still get the kill mail. ------------ I spit in the face of GoonFleet I would spit on your honor, but you have none. And May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.

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