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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:11:00 -
[1]
Edited by: S'Daria on 04/11/2004 03:20:16
I was thinking about this that keeping track of peoples' pass is difficult sometimes, especially when you need to make a gut or quick reaction. So I was thinking of this:
- Corp creates an item that looks like a "named" Data Sheet (i.e. "CA Mining Pass" or "SA Travel Pass")
- When the item is created is is "keyed" to someone's name, corp or alliance, so when creating a "CA Mining Pass" its keyed to say "S'Daria" or to "Blues Brothers" or "CA alliance"
- The pass can only be transferred between corp or alliance members if it was keyed to a corp or an alliance.
- An illegal trade (an indivdual trading to someone not in their corp or alliance), would be prompted with a warning.
- Corp "enforcers" can add flags into the scanner that allow them to automatically detect someone with a "valid" or "invalid" pass.
- The Corp button would add a tab named "Passes" where someone who is a Security manager can edit the passes.
- Passes that have a billing cycle will be added as a bill (like a factory or lab slot would) to the individual, corporation or alliance depending on its type
- The billing cycle starts when the trade is completed.
- A pass can be created in space by a Pass Manager.
Example of creating a pass:
Select Pass Type: {dropdown listbox}
Whom is this Pass to: {enter name of person/corp/alliance} [Search button]
Reoccuring Cycle: (number of days}
How many Cycles will this pass be valid: {number of Reoccuring Cycles}
Price: {price of pass that will be billed to issuer per Reoccuring Cycle}
Quanity: {number of passes of this type created}
[Reset form] [Create]
Example of Pass Manager:
[Create Pass] - pressing this button will display a dialog box similar to the naming dialog of Cargo containers.
Enter name of pass type: {enter name of pass type}
[OK] [Cancel]
A new tab is added into the Corp manager named "Passes" that lists all the current passes issued by the corp. Their status of whether they still exist (because someone can invalidate the pass by an illegal trade or if they don't pay the reoccuring bill).
A listbox would have the followoing columns:
Issuer: {name of person/corp/alliance
Pass Type: {name of the pass the Pass manager made}
Date Issued: {date pass was created}
Reoccuring: {YES|NO, shows if the pass if reoccuring and billable}
Billing Amount: {amount of pass that will be billed to issuer}
Valid Til: {date when pass will expire}
The Security manager can right click on the pass and have the following options:
- Delete...
- Validate
- Invalidate
Under the "Auditing" tab in the Corp window it will show a log of the changes made to all the passes created by the corp like the following:- Pass created by {name of Security manager} named {name of pass}
- Pass Invalided by {name of Security manage} named {name of pass}
- etc...
What do you guys think? Too complecated? Useful?
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:11:00 -
[2]
Edited by: S'Daria on 04/11/2004 03:20:16
I was thinking about this that keeping track of peoples' pass is difficult sometimes, especially when you need to make a gut or quick reaction. So I was thinking of this:
- Corp creates an item that looks like a "named" Data Sheet (i.e. "CA Mining Pass" or "SA Travel Pass")
- When the item is created is is "keyed" to someone's name, corp or alliance, so when creating a "CA Mining Pass" its keyed to say "S'Daria" or to "Blues Brothers" or "CA alliance"
- The pass can only be transferred between corp or alliance members if it was keyed to a corp or an alliance.
- An illegal trade (an indivdual trading to someone not in their corp or alliance), would be prompted with a warning.
- Corp "enforcers" can add flags into the scanner that allow them to automatically detect someone with a "valid" or "invalid" pass.
- The Corp button would add a tab named "Passes" where someone who is a Security manager can edit the passes.
- Passes that have a billing cycle will be added as a bill (like a factory or lab slot would) to the individual, corporation or alliance depending on its type
- The billing cycle starts when the trade is completed.
- A pass can be created in space by a Pass Manager.
Example of creating a pass:
Select Pass Type: {dropdown listbox}
Whom is this Pass to: {enter name of person/corp/alliance} [Search button]
Reoccuring Cycle: (number of days}
How many Cycles will this pass be valid: {number of Reoccuring Cycles}
Price: {price of pass that will be billed to issuer per Reoccuring Cycle}
Quanity: {number of passes of this type created}
[Reset form] [Create]
Example of Pass Manager:
[Create Pass] - pressing this button will display a dialog box similar to the naming dialog of Cargo containers.
Enter name of pass type: {enter name of pass type}
[OK] [Cancel]
A new tab is added into the Corp manager named "Passes" that lists all the current passes issued by the corp. Their status of whether they still exist (because someone can invalidate the pass by an illegal trade or if they don't pay the reoccuring bill).
A listbox would have the followoing columns:
Issuer: {name of person/corp/alliance
Pass Type: {name of the pass the Pass manager made}
Date Issued: {date pass was created}
Reoccuring: {YES|NO, shows if the pass if reoccuring and billable}
Billing Amount: {amount of pass that will be billed to issuer}
Valid Til: {date when pass will expire}
The Security manager can right click on the pass and have the following options:
- Delete...
- Validate
- Invalidate
Under the "Auditing" tab in the Corp window it will show a log of the changes made to all the passes created by the corp like the following:- Pass created by {name of Security manager} named {name of pass}
- Pass Invalided by {name of Security manage} named {name of pass}
- etc...
What do you guys think? Too complecated? Useful?
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Berilac
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:14:00 -
[3]
sounds very cool to me, as long as you get flaged as bad if you:
carry a pass thats not assigned to you (corp, you, or alliance)
---
'Sweeden Steel Bite hard'
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Berilac
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:14:00 -
[4]
sounds very cool to me, as long as you get flaged as bad if you:
carry a pass thats not assigned to you (corp, you, or alliance)
---
'Sweeden Steel Bite hard'
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:19:00 -
[5]
Yeah, well I was thinking of modeling this after the "contraband" system where you could flag someone has carrying an illegal pass!!!
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:19:00 -
[6]
Yeah, well I was thinking of modeling this after the "contraband" system where you could flag someone has carrying an illegal pass!!!
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:23:00 -
[7]
I kept passes created by corps so if, for example, a corp leaves the alliance than their passes won't be invalidated that they issued.
The group leader decides what "passes" are valid.
I'm sure I'm missing something with alliances, perhaps the "Executor of the alliance" can create passes that are valid for everyone in the alliance?
Not sure exactly.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:23:00 -
[8]
I kept passes created by corps so if, for example, a corp leaves the alliance than their passes won't be invalidated that they issued.
The group leader decides what "passes" are valid.
I'm sure I'm missing something with alliances, perhaps the "Executor of the alliance" can create passes that are valid for everyone in the alliance?
Not sure exactly.
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Shakul
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:45:00 -
[9]
sounds like a cool idea.
Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay. |
Shakul
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:45:00 -
[10]
sounds like a cool idea.
Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay. |
Faedorne
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Posted - 2004.11.04 11:16:00 -
[11]
It is absolutely doable, in fact. Standard certificate (identity, corp name, valid till) hashed, and then signed with private key, but those are the nitty gritty dev details. This could be done behind the scenes, and imagine the fun if someone had one and got destroyed... real time information leakage.
Make it so! - Picard
(Nice thoughts S'Daria) |
Faedorne
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Posted - 2004.11.04 11:16:00 -
[12]
It is absolutely doable, in fact. Standard certificate (identity, corp name, valid till) hashed, and then signed with private key, but those are the nitty gritty dev details. This could be done behind the scenes, and imagine the fun if someone had one and got destroyed... real time information leakage.
Make it so! - Picard
(Nice thoughts S'Daria) |
S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 12:56:00 -
[13]
Thanks. I really think its imparative that the auto scanner be seamlessly integrated so someone "enforcing" alliance borders are quickly identified.
The RP for this is basically that the computers of the alliance/corp members are linked to the "corp computers" that'll give them a visual indicator.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 12:56:00 -
[14]
Thanks. I really think its imparative that the auto scanner be seamlessly integrated so someone "enforcing" alliance borders are quickly identified.
The RP for this is basically that the computers of the alliance/corp members are linked to the "corp computers" that'll give them a visual indicator.
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Frank Horrigan
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Posted - 2004.11.04 12:59:00 -
[15]
I love your ideas, you shoud go work at ccp.
 Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Bhaal
What has turned out better than expected?
Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This i |
Frank Horrigan
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Posted - 2004.11.04 12:59:00 -
[16]
I love your ideas, you shoud go work at ccp.
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Bhaal
What has turned out better than expected?
Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This i |
S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 13:00:00 -
[17]
Oh...someone with a pass should be able to see its status.
I don't know if it should have a right click menu on the "named" data sheet with a pop-up that displays its status and settings, or a new tab should be added to the character sheet that is "Passes" and lists all the passes they currently have and their status.
NOTE: A "Pass" does not need to be on the actually ship of the person as they move though alliance controlled space, rather it must just be in their assets (think of it that they update their computers with the accesses codes that identifies them to the people who issued the "pass").
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 13:00:00 -
[18]
Oh...someone with a pass should be able to see its status.
I don't know if it should have a right click menu on the "named" data sheet with a pop-up that displays its status and settings, or a new tab should be added to the character sheet that is "Passes" and lists all the passes they currently have and their status.
NOTE: A "Pass" does not need to be on the actually ship of the person as they move though alliance controlled space, rather it must just be in their assets (think of it that they update their computers with the accesses codes that identifies them to the people who issued the "pass").
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Oveur
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Posted - 2004.11.04 13:23:00 -
[19]
Indeed, a pass management system is a very practical feature. The way you describe it however, with validation checks, consequences of trading, billing, detection etc. complicates the implementation very much.
Lets revisit this after Shiva, I'll put some thought into a simpler implementation which could be faster and easier to implement.
_____________________________
I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
Oveur
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Posted - 2004.11.04 13:23:00 -
[20]
Indeed, a pass management system is a very practical feature. The way you describe it however, with validation checks, consequences of trading, billing, detection etc. complicates the implementation very much.
Lets revisit this after Shiva, I'll put some thought into a simpler implementation which could be faster and easier to implement.
_____________________________
I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
S'Daria
|
Posted - 2004.11.04 13:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Oveur
Indeed, a pass management system is a very practical feature. The way you describe it however, with validation checks, consequences of trading, billing, detection etc. complicates the implementation very much.
Lets revisit this after Shiva, I'll put some thought into a simpler implementation which could be faster and easier to implement.
Sweet!!!
A "simpler" version of the pass system would be kewl so, as you said, not to overly complicate things.
I'll save this thread and mention to you guys after Exodus.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 13:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Oveur
Indeed, a pass management system is a very practical feature. The way you describe it however, with validation checks, consequences of trading, billing, detection etc. complicates the implementation very much.
Lets revisit this after Shiva, I'll put some thought into a simpler implementation which could be faster and easier to implement.
Sweet!!!
A "simpler" version of the pass system would be kewl so, as you said, not to overly complicate things.
I'll save this thread and mention to you guys after Exodus.
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Kenan Waroria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 14:15:00 -
[23]
Perhaps with the new alliance system it could be possible to set a temporary flagging to a person that will show up as white. And when you show info on the person you get info on what sort of pass the person has and the peroid it¦s valid. The passes can be sorted out by Alliance directors or whoever the alliance wants to handle it.
"Full circle" |
Kenan Waroria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 14:15:00 -
[24]
Perhaps with the new alliance system it could be possible to set a temporary flagging to a person that will show up as white. And when you show info on the person you get info on what sort of pass the person has and the peroid it¦s valid. The passes can be sorted out by Alliance directors or whoever the alliance wants to handle it.
"Full circle" |
khainestar
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Posted - 2004.11.04 15:46:00 -
[25]
Heres a simpler way to do it. Create a pass that causes the bearer to be flagged as +5 standing to the issuing corp for a set number of days.
Make it simular to implants. i.e. can only be used by one person, transfering it causes destruction. So if you bought it only you can use it.
-----------------------------------------------------
Pain. Looks great on other people. Its what there for. |
khainestar
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Posted - 2004.11.04 15:46:00 -
[26]
Heres a simpler way to do it. Create a pass that causes the bearer to be flagged as +5 standing to the issuing corp for a set number of days.
Make it simular to implants. i.e. can only be used by one person, transfering it causes destruction. So if you bought it only you can use it.
-----------------------------------------------------
Pain. Looks great on other people. Its what there for. |
Kenan Waroria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 15:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: khainestar
Heres a simpler way to do it. Create a pass that causes the bearer to be flagged as +5 standing to the issuing corp for a set number of days.
Make it simular to implants. i.e. can only be used by one person, transfering it causes destruction. So if you bought it only you can use it.
But a +5 standing to one corp doesn¦t help much in an alliance with several different corps. Might work if it¦s +5 to the whole alliance, but as an alliance member you want to see a difference from people that are friends (+5) and people with passes, well I want at least..
"Full circle" |
Kenan Waroria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 15:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: khainestar
Heres a simpler way to do it. Create a pass that causes the bearer to be flagged as +5 standing to the issuing corp for a set number of days.
Make it simular to implants. i.e. can only be used by one person, transfering it causes destruction. So if you bought it only you can use it.
But a +5 standing to one corp doesn¦t help much in an alliance with several different corps. Might work if it¦s +5 to the whole alliance, but as an alliance member you want to see a difference from people that are friends (+5) and people with passes, well I want at least..
"Full circle" |
Dirtball
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Posted - 2004.11.04 15:54:00 -
[29]
get one of your web dudes to work it into the ingame browser.
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Dirtball
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Posted - 2004.11.04 15:54:00 -
[30]
get one of your web dudes to work it into the ingame browser.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 16:52:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Dirtball
get one of your web dudes to work it into the ingame browser.
No the point is that if someone comes out of warp you can instantly know if they have a valid or invalid pass with one of those "!" indicators in the auto scanner.
And since the passes are billable they are a source of income for the alliance/corp.
I figure the "Execuor" of an alliance can assign someone the ability to create passes for the alliance that override ALL passes by the ones in individual corps.
The money generated from passes would be placed into an account and have a log of the transactions.
See?
However, as Oveur said we need to find a simplier version that can be implemented post-Exodus.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.04 16:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dirtball
get one of your web dudes to work it into the ingame browser.
No the point is that if someone comes out of warp you can instantly know if they have a valid or invalid pass with one of those "!" indicators in the auto scanner.
And since the passes are billable they are a source of income for the alliance/corp.
I figure the "Execuor" of an alliance can assign someone the ability to create passes for the alliance that override ALL passes by the ones in individual corps.
The money generated from passes would be placed into an account and have a log of the transactions.
See?
However, as Oveur said we need to find a simplier version that can be implemented post-Exodus.
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Rocius
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Posted - 2004.11.04 22:05:00 -
[33]
If it can be done, this could very well be a very nice tool for alliances. As far as simplifing it some, that would be good too. I did have an idea though, of course I dont know the programing end of this but, is there some way that you guys at CCP could base this off of the way insurance works? What I mean is, when you buy insurance, that money is automaticly taken from your acct, so for this, it could just be done the same way, but transfered to an alliance acct or something. The nice thing with the insurance part is that it sends you a mail when it is expired, when it is renewed and all that stuff.
Ya know, if ya wanna make it a BIT more interesting, I just had another small idea.....what if it was like a slot 20 (or whatever) Implant? Make the Implant have a timer in it that after a certain ammount of time it just disconnects and is no good after that. That in itself would alleviate the security end of it, as you cant take out implants anyway. That way a pilot cant even try to give the pass to a friend or something. It would also be good that you can be in any ship at all and still have the "pass" with you .
Anyway, I still like the base idea here S'Daria ! Lets hope this is seriously looked at later !
Dont take your gaming too serious ! |
Rocius
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Posted - 2004.11.04 22:05:00 -
[34]
If it can be done, this could very well be a very nice tool for alliances. As far as simplifing it some, that would be good too. I did have an idea though, of course I dont know the programing end of this but, is there some way that you guys at CCP could base this off of the way insurance works? What I mean is, when you buy insurance, that money is automaticly taken from your acct, so for this, it could just be done the same way, but transfered to an alliance acct or something. The nice thing with the insurance part is that it sends you a mail when it is expired, when it is renewed and all that stuff.
Ya know, if ya wanna make it a BIT more interesting, I just had another small idea.....what if it was like a slot 20 (or whatever) Implant? Make the Implant have a timer in it that after a certain ammount of time it just disconnects and is no good after that. That in itself would alleviate the security end of it, as you cant take out implants anyway. That way a pilot cant even try to give the pass to a friend or something. It would also be good that you can be in any ship at all and still have the "pass" with you .
Anyway, I still like the base idea here S'Daria ! Lets hope this is seriously looked at later !
Dont take your gaming too serious ! |
djubrica
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Posted - 2004.11.05 01:25:00 -
[35]
Edited by: djubrica on 05/11/2004 01:28:48
IMO, it should only be added if a possibility of falsifying this document is also available. Some insane science skill or whatever. This is speaking from a non alliance point of view. Can't make it too easy for alliances now, can we 
I am not saying a total deception but for a limited time, like 10-15 seconds or one time use only or whatever. Then it's up to alliance communication to announce imposters in alliance channel.
This would force the alliances to have actual checkpoints and not just have everything automated and easy.
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djubrica
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Posted - 2004.11.05 01:25:00 -
[36]
Edited by: djubrica on 05/11/2004 01:28:48
IMO, it should only be added if a possibility of falsifying this document is also available. Some insane science skill or whatever. This is speaking from a non alliance point of view. Can't make it too easy for alliances now, can we
I am not saying a total deception but for a limited time, like 10-15 seconds or one time use only or whatever. Then it's up to alliance communication to announce imposters in alliance channel.
This would force the alliances to have actual checkpoints and not just have everything automated and easy.
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Faedorne
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Posted - 2004.11.05 02:49:00 -
[37]
If you are going to implement IFF (Identity Friend or Foe) you had better do it so that it can be spoofed/jammed, etc. Because while this does offer alliance "ease-of-identifying" it would almost give such absolute control of IFF that the information and electronic warfare miss out on the best part of the game, pretending to be in the alliance, etc. Sure this is the hacking aspect for electronic warfare, but seems like a viable option to me. Think of it this way, you kill someone's ship in the corp, there is 5% or less chance of the "black box" to drop, thus allow research to determine the IFF for that corporation. Then a BPO OH YES! Now I can build black box and turn it on and Hi I'm Friendly :)
You KNOW you wanna add that. IFF shouldn't be built in if we can't MUCK with it. just my 2isk
Latez |
Faedorne
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Posted - 2004.11.05 02:49:00 -
[38]
If you are going to implement IFF (Identity Friend or Foe) you had better do it so that it can be spoofed/jammed, etc. Because while this does offer alliance "ease-of-identifying" it would almost give such absolute control of IFF that the information and electronic warfare miss out on the best part of the game, pretending to be in the alliance, etc. Sure this is the hacking aspect for electronic warfare, but seems like a viable option to me. Think of it this way, you kill someone's ship in the corp, there is 5% or less chance of the "black box" to drop, thus allow research to determine the IFF for that corporation. Then a BPO OH YES! Now I can build black box and turn it on and Hi I'm Friendly :)
You KNOW you wanna add that. IFF shouldn't be built in if we can't MUCK with it. just my 2isk
Latez |
S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.05 08:43:00 -
[39]
Edited by: S'Daria on 05/11/2004 08:46:59
Hmm...good point. Perhaps you should only be able to "look" in your corps' database of passes if you actually target them?
The targeting of a ship is enough to get the signature and automatically ask for the identification code from their computer.
If they don't upload their data, be it falified or not, then you know they don't have a pass.
I like the idea of falsifying passes. How about requiring the following skills to have a chance of falsifying a document:
Hacking V (x4): This skill allows you to gain access(wanted or unwanted) to a computer and view, copy, or create data(leaving a trace) without the intention of destroying data or maliciously harming the computer.
Intelligence V (x5): This skill allows you to gather information concerning an enemy or possible enemy or an area.
Forgery III (x2}: This skill allows you to falsely and fraudulently make or alter a document.
1. Best chance of making a fradulent pass would be if you had a valid pass to work with - this would allow you to subvert the billing cycle for the pass and make your pass look valid even though it may not be. This type of pass would be the hardest to detect.
2. Creating a pass for a target corporation would be the most difficult, but could be done, but would probably have a high chance of being detected.
To detect a fradulant pass the other person needs to have the same skills noted above to have a greater chance of finding the fradulant pass.
Then taking everything into consideration there will be a percent chance that a pass will be identified as fradulant.
Now you could also add a Mid-slot module that does a "Deep Scan" on the target. This will increase the chances for detecting a fradulant pass. To counter this you would have a module that attempts to counter or feed the "Deep Scanner" false information...again skills and a chance of failing will be modified accordingly.
The fradulant passes could then be sold and trade like "contraband" materials.
I know its a very complex system and probably wouldn't ever be implemented like this, but its good to dream.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.05 08:43:00 -
[40]
Edited by: S'Daria on 05/11/2004 08:46:59
Hmm...good point. Perhaps you should only be able to "look" in your corps' database of passes if you actually target them?
The targeting of a ship is enough to get the signature and automatically ask for the identification code from their computer.
If they don't upload their data, be it falified or not, then you know they don't have a pass.
I like the idea of falsifying passes. How about requiring the following skills to have a chance of falsifying a document:
Hacking V (x4): This skill allows you to gain access(wanted or unwanted) to a computer and view, copy, or create data(leaving a trace) without the intention of destroying data or maliciously harming the computer.
Intelligence V (x5): This skill allows you to gather information concerning an enemy or possible enemy or an area.
Forgery III (x2}: This skill allows you to falsely and fraudulently make or alter a document.
1. Best chance of making a fradulent pass would be if you had a valid pass to work with - this would allow you to subvert the billing cycle for the pass and make your pass look valid even though it may not be. This type of pass would be the hardest to detect.
2. Creating a pass for a target corporation would be the most difficult, but could be done, but would probably have a high chance of being detected.
To detect a fradulant pass the other person needs to have the same skills noted above to have a greater chance of finding the fradulant pass.
Then taking everything into consideration there will be a percent chance that a pass will be identified as fradulant.
Now you could also add a Mid-slot module that does a "Deep Scan" on the target. This will increase the chances for detecting a fradulant pass. To counter this you would have a module that attempts to counter or feed the "Deep Scanner" false information...again skills and a chance of failing will be modified accordingly.
The fradulant passes could then be sold and trade like "contraband" materials.
I know its a very complex system and probably wouldn't ever be implemented like this, but its good to dream.
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.08 14:09:00 -
[41]
Have you guys seen the new complexes in Exodus?
Have you noticed the new acceleration gates that require a "pass" to go though (basically a "key" for the dungeon door), the gate?
What if you "owned" a system that you could also program the jumpgates to do the same?
I'm not sure if we should allow this until Jump Drives and Titans are in, but do you think its something to consider?
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S'Daria
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Posted - 2004.11.08 14:09:00 -
[42]
Have you guys seen the new complexes in Exodus?
Have you noticed the new acceleration gates that require a "pass" to go though (basically a "key" for the dungeon door), the gate?
What if you "owned" a system that you could also program the jumpgates to do the same?
I'm not sure if we should allow this until Jump Drives and Titans are in, but do you think its something to consider?
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Kelewan
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Posted - 2004.11.08 17:16:00 -
[43]
Again another excellent idea.
Keep it up S'Daria
-----------------------------------------------
"I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
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Kelewan
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Posted - 2004.11.08 17:16:00 -
[44]
Again another excellent idea.
Keep it up S'Daria
-----------------------------------------------
"I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
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