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Alice Rubidinous Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:17:00 - [1] Edited by: Alice Rubidinous on 07/11/2009 00:22:26 CCP just introduced a change, which within the barest of calculations (30 systems per region., 50 regions, 30 mil per day per system = 45 billion/day) creates a killer ISK sink. How long will it be before self-destructing Rokhs is the most profitable profession in EVE?
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:20:00 - [2] I concur.
LarcatOfRens	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:45:00 - [3] Whats the change?
Mystical Dawn Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Alice Rubidinous Edited by: Alice Rubidinous on 07/11/2009 00:22:26 CCP just introduced a change, which within the barest of calculations (30 systems per region., 50 regions, 30 mil per day per system = 45 billion/day) creates a killer ISK sink. How long will it be before self-destructing Rokhs is the most profitable profession in EVE? Except that if there is war going on, you need tritanium to keep those Super Carriers and Dreadnoughts kicking....
Signore Kaeota Caldari Terra Incognita	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:33:00 - [5] yay! The value of isk should rise! Also I heard that as you get more space, the cost rises. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_
Jacqueri Calroszian The Program	Posted - 2009.11.07 03:44:00 - [6] Originally by: Mystical Dawn Originally by: Alice Rubidinous Edited by: Alice Rubidinous on 07/11/2009 00:22:26 CCP just introduced a change, which within the barest of calculations (30 systems per region., 50 regions, 30 mil per day per system = 45 billion/day) creates a killer ISK sink. How long will it be before self-destructing Rokhs is the most profitable profession in EVE? Except that if there is war going on, you need tritanium to keep those Super Carriers and Dreadnoughts kicking.... Wait... forgive me if this sounds stupid - but did you just say Dreadnoughts and Motherships will have a mineral upkeep now? I don't remember seeing or hearing this anywhere.
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Mystical Dawn Except that if there is war going on, you need tritanium to keep those Super Carriers and Dreadnoughts kicking.... Wars?? No one will have to fight wars. They will be too busy ratting just to try to pay the bills. All the big alliances are throwing a fit here.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Terra Incognita	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Jacqueri Calroszian Wait... forgive me if this sounds stupid - but did you just say Dreadnoughts and Motherships will have a mineral upkeep now? I don't remember seeing or hearing this anywhere. No, he meant that ships die and it costs minerals to replace them. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:42:00 - [9] This suddenly made me like Dominion quite a lot more. ----------------
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:48:00 - [10] Edited by: Tesal on 07/11/2009 05:48:30 Its about 25-75 million per day in upkeep costs for Sov in the Dev Blog. Pos are IN ADDITION to that. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Yes ThisIsMyAlt	Posted - 2009.11.07 05:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Tesal Edited by: Tesal on 07/11/2009 05:48:30 Its about 25-75 million per day in upkeep costs for Sov in the Dev Blog. Pos are IN ADDITION to that. So maybe there will finally be some incentive to recruit "carebears" and have their carebear alts actually in the corp with them, in the space they own. Darn it. They have to actually live in and use the space they own now? That can't be right!
Alice Rubidinous Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:06:00 - [12] I really wish it were so. (Allowing more carebears, industrialists into nullsec). It is not so. There will be fewer bears...next to L4 mission running, nullsec ratting will be horrible after DOM. No boost in isk/hr, major boost in risk.
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:21:00 - [13] Yeah, I don't see how anyone thinks any part of this will incentivize recruiting industrialists. Hardcore plex runners are what corps are going to want. Corps with high taxes are what alliances are going to want. ----------------
Chalrynn Illyndar Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Lui Kai Yeah, I don't see how anyone thinks any part of this will incentivize recruiting industrialists. Hardcore plex runners are what corps are going to want. Corps with high taxes are what alliances are going to want. Only for a little while before prices on deadspace loot tanks...
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.07 10:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Alice Rubidinous I really wish it were so. (Allowing more carebears, industrialists into nullsec). It is not so. There will be fewer bears...next to L4 mission running, nullsec ratting will be horrible after DOM. No boost in isk/hr, major boost in risk. Quote: The military index is based upon killing NPCs, a favourite past time of many of you and you get more points, the bigger the NPC is. Simple and straightforward! - Military - allow your systems to have additional anomalies and other exploration dungeons within your space such as encounters and complexes and wormholes I know it is difficult to differentiate "such as" from "only" but if your read both quotes CCP meaning seem to be: - Increasing your military index will increase NPC in several ways, some of those are more encounters, complexes and wormholes but it is not limited to those. Note too that you don't know what the upgrade encounter will spawn and if the increased military index will affect belt NPC too. As usual, going "crystal ball" on a single Dev blog is a great way to failed predictions.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.11.07 10:21:00 - [16] Maybe this will make up for the awfulness that is sleeper-tags and the, however small it is, ISK faucet it creates.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 10:22:00 - [17] Quote: All the big alliances are throwing a fit here. After several years of heavy POS exploits, dominating moon goo and fielding hundreds of caps per fight thanks to that, now they have to put actual effort? The universe came to an end. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ebanni Ebanni Mercantile	Posted - 2009.11.07 12:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Breaker77 All the big alliances are throwing a fit... . Boo-friggity-hoo. The "big alliances" have had EvE handed to them on a silver platter for years. Now that their "empires" will take actual effort to maintain (read: upkeep) their control, the flood of moaning and griping is pretty much the biggest example of FAIL I've seen in a long time. They will do what they have to, which is to say fortify and focus on their most strategic and valuable systems, and their internal tax rates will likely go up to meet the new ISK demands as they slowly expand their borders. Then the alleged impact of "DUST" on the new Sov system will be felt sometime next year. I frakking love it! BRAVO to CCP for really shaking things up. Wars, wars and more wars. Let the fun begin.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.07 12:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edit: it's market all over again. If the patch sucks, demand (people bothering with 0.0 or just bothering with the game any more) will drop and CCP will sell cheaper (= buff & make less painful) till demand increases again. The first days will be fun and profitable, like every time there's a spike. This. It is pre nerfed on Sisi (maybe, no one has really tested it from what I see). Almost a month to release and you think CCP will not fiddle with numbers till the last day?
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.07 14:53:00 - [20] Originally by: Ebanni Originally by: Breaker77 All the big alliances are throwing a fit... . Boo-friggity-hoo. The "big alliances" have had EvE handed to them on a silver platter for years. Now that their "empires" will take actual effort to maintain (read: upkeep) their control, the flood of moaning and griping is pretty much the biggest example of FAIL I've seen in a long time. They will do what they have to, which is to say fortify and focus on their most strategic and valuable systems, and their internal tax rates will likely go up to meet the new ISK demands as they slowly expand their borders. Then the alleged impact of "DUST" on the new Sov system will be felt sometime next year. I frakking love it! BRAVO to CCP for really shaking things up. Wars, wars and more wars. Let the fun begin. Yea friggin right. All this means is the alliance mechanic will be abandoned in favor of non-game recognized "blue"ing each other, to keep upkeep costs to a minimum. Probably better that way anyways since there's less opportunity to disband a whole empire from one disgruntled director, but maintaining diplomacy (who is blue to who) will be a nightmare. This idea is completely fail and will be horribly abused, imo. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.07 16:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Dzil Yea friggin right. All this means is the alliance mechanic will be abandoned in favor of non-game recognized "blue"ing each other, to keep upkeep costs to a minimum. Probably better that way anyways since there's less opportunity to disband a whole empire from one disgruntled director, but maintaining diplomacy (who is blue to who) will be a nightmare. This idea is completely fail and will be horribly abused, imo. This... You don't need sov except to build supercaps. Only now without cyno jammers in every system you want to control you will have to worry about hotdrops. Most alliance will not give up the space they own, just the sov map will be pretty empty.
Bradley Strider	Posted - 2009.11.07 16:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Ebanni Wars, wars and more wars. Let the fun begin. Why would there be many wars? There will be less incentive for large scale conflicts...
Ebanni Ebanni Mercantile	Posted - 2009.11.07 17:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Bradley Strider Originally by: Ebanni Wars, wars and more wars. Let the fun begin. Why would there be many wars? There will be less incentive for large scale conflicts... Because people get bored. Because sooner or later, roaming small ship gangs and chain ratting and gate camps gets boring. Because sooner rather than later, the bright spark adapts to the changes in the game and takes advantage of it and "the other guy" either reacts by rallying his troops or he loses his space. Because people want to "win". Sooner or later, it will happen -- or why bother playing.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 18:25:00 - [24] I think something no one bothered to understand so far is that Dominion is not (just) the lolcoveted sov remake. So follows my totally drunken lolanalysis (actually it's a medicine), bear with me ------------------------ Dominion is about CCP ran their analysis and discovered what any MD regular knows since months: there's vastly too many ISK around. As I said many times, the game got old. Players, even the bad ones, adapted and improved on ISK generation. Alliance suckled every possible way to gain isk themselves. And so, it became possible to buy much stuff. To make titans used as teleports instead of being the awe inspiring "I took a screenshot, I have seen that thing!". To make dreads in the hundreds to the point that even my 2009 remade corp (not even in 0.0 atm) can give them free (carriers also) to the corp members. This money flow is also visible in MD, the recently shown graphs demonstrate an increase of IPOs and bonds over time. Plus, not only they increase, but the general availability of invest-able capital far exceeds them, to the point of accepting less safe investments for the sake of putting that money somewhere. Due to willing to cash in this vast amount of money and thus stuff being purchased so much, everyone and their mother put up capitals / BS etc production lines killing any profit in the name of volume. Moon goo being exploitable also created both huge money and huge over-abundancy of material. Those factors, along with the pre-miner bots nerf, caused tritanium to skyrocket up. It's some RL-alike years long trend so it's also hard to spot quick. Now, CCP nerfed mining bots but they did not stop there. With less bots trit would have skyrocketed up even more, so they hugely boosted minerals availability and made them crash. The next logical move is to kill missions income (roids create minerals out of nowhere, missions create minerals and isk out of nowhere and dictate a lot of the game cash flow) or to make life more expensive, to illude people L4 missioning is still the magic, all solving cash cow. CCP has seen what happens at the very mention of nerfing L4 missions so instead of an oral bitter pill, they are going up off the opposite side: the butt. Result: being less able to control vast amounts of everything and paying so much, alliances will get out of 0.0. Or will keep the "worth" systems. Less forces to defend them because when territory shrinks the need of huge infrastructures and lots of supercapitals drops (bigger ships for a bigger empire. A bit like in Star Wars btw). You'll want agile fleets able to turn up at a whim and defend with little preadvice. Titan nerf comes exactly to allow for such agile fleets to be viable (see, this IS a drunken analysis, I see martians). Result: much more cash burned just to exist. Fragmentation of the huge alliances. More logistics (market hint). Possible increased need of stations (for the higher density of people). Still requirement of more POSes than anticipated. Less requirement for huge ships. Roids can later be returned to the "spawn smaller and every x days" to appreciate tritanium again. = Game deflation. End of easily sacrificed huge supercaps fleets. Game "reset" back by years. End of tin foil hat, drunken analysis. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.07 18:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Dominion is about CCP ran their analysis and discovered what any MD regular knows since months: there's vastly too many ISK around. Anyone concerned about what this might do to the plex market? Will plexes skyrocket in price or will it stay the same or even go down if more people try to get fast ISK from them?
LifeLines Capital Construction Research	Posted - 2009.11.07 18:47:00 - [26] whats stopping them from creating alt alliances to keep the costs down?
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.07 18:57:00 - [27] Originally by: LifeLines whats stopping them from creating alt alliances to keep the costs down? It costs the same per system if you have 1 or 1000 systems you pay for.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:33:00 - [28] 1. Alliance space gets smaller on the maps 2. Some corp systems will get all the upgrades 3. Corp taxes go up 4. Mandatory corp ops more likely 5. Alliance dues go up to pay for the stuff
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 01:59:00 - [29] Apart from the impact on alliances in 0.00, I think the OP raised a relevant point. How will such a massive ISK sink affect the game in general? Measures of this may be minerals, moon materials, t2 ships, plex, cap ships, supercaps, character prices, modules, faction modules, ice prices, BPOs (in particular Caps and t2)...yada yada Does anyone have an opinion on how the overall economy will react to this change (as presented by CCP in its current state)? A lot of people seem to be assuming that these changes will only affect alliance holders in 0.00; I very much doubt this will be the case, but I would be interested to hear other's thoughts. Obviously the changes are not confirmed as yet; but does anyone in MD have a projection for these changes and how they will or could affect the markets?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.08 02:10:00 - [30] You could have read few posts above to find some projections - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 02:21:00 - [31] VV I was looking for a coherent argument about how the changes will affect the markets overall, as opposed to references to 0.00 alliances as per comso (which are also of interest). I understand pre the scarey blog people were speculating wildly on minerals, moon goo, supercaps and the like. My point is simply; if the ISK faucets are due to literally evaporate (to a degree that wasnt previously anticipated, and perhaps isnt the end result as CCP will implement), how will that affect the markets. Even if it is toned down there must be some impact? I'm thinking things like t2 bpos and perhaps cap bpos to be more specific, although the rest all fall into the question if you consider it from a non-alliance point of view. I suppose I'm asking "what will be the value of ISK going forward if these changes are even halfway implemented"? Sorry if the question isn't clear; I can see various threads popping up but I can't see anyone answering the OP's question in this thread in a wider sense.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.08 08:48:00 - [32] Originally by: Alice Rubidinous Edited by: Alice Rubidinous on 07/11/2009 00:22:26 CCP just introduced a change, which within the barest of calculations (30 systems per region., 50 regions, 30 mil per day per system = 45 billion/day) creates a killer ISK sink. How long will it be before self-destructing Rokhs is the most profitable profession in EVE? Maintenance costs have changed to about 6 mil/day. Linkage So it is 9 billions/day, 1/5 of your projection. At the same time, if people put up the upgrades, some isk faucet will be increased, even if less than the material faucets. I see some deflation, but nothing terrible.
destinationunreachable Hello Kitty Fanclub	Posted - 2009.11.08 10:00:00 - [33] two comments: 1) I am not sure that the amount of ISK available actually increased. In the last quarterly economic newsletter CCP also mentioned, that the average wallet stayed (more or less) the same all the time. What I can see (and every producer/trader should have noticed as well) is a massive deflation. As more and more people entered trading and production the margins become smaller and smaller. On most items (T1/T2) we are going towards a smaller than 10% margin. The falling trit price in the last weeks/months certainly didn't help as well. Who doesn't know about deflation, its causes and effects should read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation - tldr: creating more ISK sinks is into the wrong direction 2) to understand the effects on alliance level of the upcoming massive ISK sink, we need to look at where the current ISK goes to. Most corps have a subsidized sub-cap ship program and fully replaced cap program. Every corp tries to encourage people fighting for their space by investing its money into the gear. CCP stated (did they or did the community read this in between the lines ?) that they wanted more small scale fights, this will certainly happen as corps will have much less ISK left to spend it on members ships. This means that smaller ships as well as more T1 than T2 (insurance!) will be used as the individual member will need to pay more for his/her ships and be more careful and also more carebearing to make ISK. If only we would know how much of the economy is being used up in 0.0 ...
Creepin	Posted - 2009.11.08 10:12:00 - [34] Don't see any problem, massive isk sinks is what this game needs direly for a long time! I'm sick & tired watching billions that I've made years ago that were able to buy me years of gametime back then reduced to crap that only able to provide me with months of gametime novadays.
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.08 11:19:00 - [35] Less SOV, less jumpbridges, less quick access to enemy space. The larger coalitions aren't gonna wanna make 40 conventional jumps to get to their enemies, there's bound to be some standing resets and backstabbing in the name of convenient pewpew.
Ebanni Ebanni Mercantile	Posted - 2009.11.08 11:44:00 - [36] Originally by: Kazzzi Less SOV, less jumpbridges, less quick access to enemy space. The larger coalitions aren't gonna wanna make 40 conventional jumps to get to their enemies, there's bound to be some standing resets and backstabbing in the name of convenient pewpew. Exactly. And in some cases you'll find otherwise almost worthless systems fortified as "staging areas" for invasions, both to avoid boring everyone with 40 jumps to the enemy and to provide a nearby resupply/repair area to a warzone. Some Alliances will need to re-think their grand strategies, including their defensive deployments and supply lines. Folks wanted more "realism" in how they conduct warfare in EvE... wish granted.
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2009.11.08 14:50:00 - [37] Originally by: LaVista Vista Maybe this will make up for the awfulness that is sleeper-tags and the, however small it is, ISK faucet it creates. And how is that worse than normal NPC bounties?
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.08 22:00:00 - [38] Originally by: Ebanni Originally by: Kazzzi Less SOV, less jumpbridges, less quick access to enemy space. The larger coalitions aren't gonna wanna make 40 conventional jumps to get to their enemies, there's bound to be some standing resets and backstabbing in the name of convenient pewpew. Exactly. And in some cases you'll find otherwise almost worthless systems fortified as "staging areas" for invasions, both to avoid boring everyone with 40 jumps to the enemy and to provide a nearby resupply/repair area to a warzone. Some Alliances will need to re-think their grand strategies, including their defensive deployments and supply lines. Folks wanted more "realism" in how they conduct warfare in EvE... wish granted. And if CCP did think to do so, then they are doing something right at least.
Yarinor Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.09 01:19:00 - [39] Originally by: Ebanni Originally by: Kazzzi Less SOV, less jumpbridges, less quick access to enemy space. The larger coalitions aren't gonna wanna make 40 conventional jumps to get to their enemies, there's bound to be some standing resets and backstabbing in the name of convenient pewpew. Exactly. And in some cases you'll find otherwise almost worthless systems fortified as "staging areas" for invasions, both to avoid boring everyone with 40 jumps to the enemy and to provide a nearby resupply/repair area to a warzone. Some Alliances will need to re-think their grand strategies, including their defensive deployments and supply lines. Folks wanted more "realism" in how they conduct warfare in EvE... wish granted. Confirming some backstabbing has already gone on in NC
Leana Darkrider Minmatar Creatio -ex- nihilo The Donkey Rollers	Posted - 2009.11.09 09:01:00 - [40] @ the OP, If you're talking about Dominion, nothing big is going to be changed tbh. At this moment you have to buy fuel for your towers which are claiming sov. This is an isk sink too. with Dominion, you don't need to pay for tower fuel, but instead you'll recieve bills for the systems where you're claiming sov. These costs are roughly the same as tower fuel. ______________________________________ If only EVE could cook, if only....
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 09:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Leana Darkrider @ the OP, If you're talking about Dominion, nothing big is going to be changed tbh. At this moment you have to buy fuel for your towers which are claiming sov. This is an isk sink too. with Dominion, you don't need to pay for tower fuel, but instead you'll recieve bills for the systems where you're claiming sov. These costs are roughly the same as tower fuel. TBH I can understand the need for ISK sinks, but while the POS fuel made sense roleplay-wise, playing a rent for something you conquered with bloodshed it does not make sense at all. What I could foresee is the first day a NPC clerk comes to rescue the fee, he's blobbed and podded never to be seen again. Or Concord sends ships and they meet a couple of titans and some dozens of dreads as welcome committee. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Leana Darkrider Minmatar Creatio -ex- nihilo The Donkey Rollers	Posted - 2009.11.09 10:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Leana Darkrider @ the OP, If you're talking about Dominion, nothing big is going to be changed tbh. At this moment you have to buy fuel for your towers which are claiming sov. This is an isk sink too. with Dominion, you don't need to pay for tower fuel, but instead you'll recieve bills for the systems where you're claiming sov. These costs are roughly the same as tower fuel. TBH I can understand the need for ISK sinks, but while the POS fuel made sense roleplay-wise, playing a rent for something you conquered with bloodshed it does not make sense at all. What I could foresee is the first day a NPC clerk comes to rescue the fee, he's blobbed and podded never to be seen again. Or Concord sends ships and they meet a couple of titans and some dozens of dreads as welcome committee. You're right that it doesn't make sense. but if you just look at the current game mechanics and the game mechanics that are comming with dominion, I think it's a huge improvement. And with that, I don't mind how CCP is going to do it, aslong they can achieve their plans with nullsec ______________________________________ If only EVE could cook, if only....
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 10:56:00 - [43] I mind, instead. This is still a RPG game, if people cannot achieve the suspension of disbelief ("because we all know that we needed an ISK sink" => RL mechanics become hideously immediately visible inside the virtual environment), the game has failed, and picked a wrong way instead of pouring in more effort and achieving the same while remaining in role. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Leana Darkrider Minmatar Creatio -ex- nihilo The Donkey Rollers	Posted - 2009.11.09 11:06:00 - [44] Officially EvE is a mmorpg, but if you look at the versatility EvE offers, alot of aspects aren't RPG. But just an online game. But If you just look at the RPG aspects, I have to agree with you ______________________________________ If only EVE could cook, if only....
Sigurd Thorson	Posted - 2009.11.09 11:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha What I could foresee is the first day a NPC clerk comes to rescue the fee, he's blobbed and podded never to be seen again. Or Concord sends ships and they meet a couple of titans and some dozens of dreads as welcome committee. Well going with your roleplay reasoning the following day The NPCs running the gates in your system go on strike as their pay cheques have bounced and no-one has payed for the fuel to run them, meaning you are cut off no ships in none out. Comm channels go down for the same reason if you want sov of a system your corp/alliance pays for the services.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 11:58:00 - [46] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 12:00:23 Originally by: Sigurd Thorson Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha What I could foresee is the first day a NPC clerk comes to rescue the fee, he's blobbed and podded never to be seen again. Or Concord sends ships and they meet a couple of titans and some dozens of dreads as welcome committee. Well going with your roleplay reasoning the following day The NPCs running the gates in your system go on strike as their pay cheques have bounced and no-one has payed for the fuel to run them, meaning you are cut off no ships in none out. Comm channels go down for the same reason if you want sov of a system your corp/alliance pays for the services. No, going with my roleplay, the gate would simply to be fueled like a POS is. If it ends fuel, the gate becomes DED property (else it'd be exploitable to just deactivate it) and you have to buy it off them again for an hefty amount. Gates would optionally be able to be upgraded - and this time paying a recurring fee for their "food" - with spawned NPCs that act like factional police (but confined to the gate) but under your SOV service. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.09 13:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Leana Darkrider At this moment you have to buy fuel for your towers which are claiming sov. This is an isk sink too. You don't understand the concept of an isk sink. Buying POS fuel is not an isk sink because the isk goes to other players, namely the ice miners. An isk sink is something that removes isk from the game, like office rents, sales tax, station fees, etc. An isk source is something that puts isk into the game, such as bounties, mission rewards, and insurance. With all due respect to VV's analysis (which I cannot follow for the life of me) I take a very simplistic approach, which is that isk sources will have to catch up with the new isk sink. That means more missions and bounties, but primarily I agree with the OP in thinking that most of the isk will be coming from insurance. Another way to look at it is that with a reduced demand for ice products, ice miners will switch to asteroids, keeping mineral prices low, and increasing the profits on insurance fraud.
Leana Darkrider Minmatar Creatio -ex- nihilo The Donkey Rollers	Posted - 2009.11.09 13:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Leana Darkrider At this moment you have to buy fuel for your towers which are claiming sov. This is an isk sink too. You don't understand the concept of an isk sink. Buying POS fuel is not an isk sink because the isk goes to other players, namely the ice miners. An isk sink is something that removes isk from the game, like office rents, sales tax, station fees, etc. An isk source is something that puts isk into the game, such as bounties, mission rewards, and insurance. With all due respect to VV's analysis (which I cannot follow for the life of me) I take a very simplistic approach, which is that isk sources will have to catch up with the new isk sink. That means more missions and bounties, but primarily I agree with the OP in thinking that most of the isk will be coming from insurance. Another way to look at it is that with a reduced demand for ice products, ice miners will switch to asteroids, keeping mineral prices low, and increasing the profits on insurance fraud. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. As you know, towers also need other "fuel" then just the isotopes, ozone and heavy water. I was talking about enriched uranium, robotics, mechanical parts etc etc. These fuel sorts are an isk sink. So, yes, I do understand the concept of an isk sink ______________________________________ If only EVE could cook, if only....
Andron Blaxcor	Posted - 2009.11.09 13:37:00 - [49] The issue of isk sinks etc aside, this will have some interesting impacts on population in 0.0. Alliances will probably shrink so that each alliance supports fewer systems per member. This may lead to higher population densities and perhaps new hub systems in 0.0. Secondly, what about faction-owned 0.0 space (i.e. prate space etc)? It seems that this may become more profitable as they won't have associated upkeep costs. It seems possible that wars will be fought over the use of such areas. I am, of course, basing this on the assumption that holding sov will be more difficult/expensive. Paying for sov will result in less logistical challenges (compared to moving fuel around anyway) but wil cost slightly more. However, with fewer POSs around there will be less moon mining. This providing a (relatively) passive income that previously offset the cost of sovereignty, even if only to a small degree on poorer moons. So, on average, it seems holding sov will be more costly than under the previous system. In addition, if the new isk sink removes isk from the system there will be less isk for allainces to accrue from the player market as total isk drops. I also wonder if fewer towers will increase the price of any moon goo? Any POSs will now be primarily industrial rather than at the moment where industry is often secondary to sov. However, there are so many competing factors pulling prices in different directions I admire anyone who totally and completely predicts the nature of the change to come as it's simply too complicated to understand more than a subset of factors. Some will make billions by speculation, some will lose billions. /me gets popcorn
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.11.09 15:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: LaVista Vista Maybe this will make up for the awfulness that is sleeper-tags and the, however small it is, ISK faucet it creates. And how is that worse than normal NPC bounties? Yes.... Yes there is... and Sleeper-Tags are it A Class 3 Wormhole Our corp lived out of a Wormhole for a while, three correctly fit Ravens (Yes just normal Ravens) where able to take on all the sites without losses. The sites are worth easily 100mil in Tags this was on-top of the salvage and "goods" you could pick up. And we were able to clear them pretty quickly, high speed Cepter going around salvaging and collecting tags after the encounter really helped. I actually doubt there is a higher ISK fountain then Sleeper tags to be honest. ISK/Time Ratio is extremely high, even when you split it up in the fleet. The smallerst amount would be three, as we had difficulties with two, but three we had no issues. Any more then four actually created issues. Maybe 10 sites a WH clearing them in 20-30 minute lots, couple of hours per billion. Amarr for Life
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.09 15:39:00 - [51] Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 09/11/2009 15:39:20 Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: LaVista Vista Maybe this will make up for the awfulness that is sleeper-tags and the, however small it is, ISK faucet it creates. And how is that worse than normal NPC bounties? Yes.... Yes there is... and Sleeper-Tags are it A Class 3 Wormhole Our corp lived out of a Wormhole for a while, three correctly fit Ravens (Yes just normal Ravens) where able to take on all the sites without losses. The sites are worth easily 100mil in Tags this was on-top of the salvage and "goods" you could pick up. And we were able to clear them pretty quickly, high speed Cepter going around salvaging and collecting tags after the encounter really helped. I actually doubt there is a higher ISK fountain then Sleeper tags to be honest. ISK/Time Ratio is extremely high, even when you split it up in the fleet. The smallerst amount would be three, as we had difficulties with two, but three we had no issues. Any more then four actually created issues. Maybe 10 sites a WH clearing them in 20-30 minute lots, couple of hours per billion. But if you sell the sleeper tags to NPCs, there is exactly NO difference between the sleeper tags and NPC rat bounties (as far as ISK faucet goes), except that the tags require a bit more time sink to cash in. The difference you are pointing out is that they are more valuable for the time put in. Consider them high bounty but somehow weaker NPC rats, in that case, and it is still the exact same thing. Again, only difference is time to collect them and possibility of not collecting or possibility of your ship (and tags) going boom before you get them to market.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.11.09 16:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Again, only difference is time to collect them and possibility of not collecting or possibility of your ship (and tags) going boom before you get them to market. However, consider the fact that you only need to make 1 trip to the market per WH. The "volume" of the tags are minimal, you can have tens of thousands of them from hundreds of encounters. The only time sink is the time it takes when you choose to cash in the tags, the travel time to one of the many hundreds of "cash in" spots across EVE. The time sink per tag/bounty is smaller and smaller the more encounters you do. Amarr for Life
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 16:40:00 - [53] Quote: Secondly, what about faction-owned 0.0 space (i.e. prate space etc)? It seems that this may become more profitable as they won't have associated upkeep costs. It seems possible that wars will be fought over the use of such areas There's also the 3rd choice, because NPC space has many drawbacks. Only keep "sov" in the few crucial systems (supercaps, < -0.5 true sec, bottlenecks) and the rest is just "owned". That is, you try to enter and you are podded like today, but without a nice colored dot on the sov map. I have a gut feeling that the current big alliances will do exactly this. The newcomers, unlike CCP intentions, won't be able to pass the bottlenecks and will have to settle for the crappier systems, discover how L4 were not that bad compared to the new situation n and eventually give up. Moreover, an HUGELY massive factor CCP is mysteriously ignoring is that they cannot make "bears" move to 0.0 because for them: if risk > 0 then hi sec L4 farm. Period. They did not consider that PvE "enthusiasts" are just another kind of player and not PvPers mentality ones. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.09 16:56:00 - [54] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Dretzle Omega Again, only difference is time to collect them and possibility of not collecting or possibility of your ship (and tags) going boom before you get them to market. However, consider the fact that you only need to make 1 trip to the market per WH. The "volume" of the tags are minimal, you can have tens of thousands of them from hundreds of encounters. The only time sink is the time it takes when you choose to cash in the tags, the travel time to one of the many hundreds of "cash in" spots across EVE. The time sink per tag/bounty is smaller and smaller the more encounters you do. Which only makes the point that there is little difference between sleeper tags and NPC rat bounties.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.09 17:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Which only makes the point that there is little difference between sleeper tags and NPC rat bounties. You guys have been arguing past each other, but we didn't say anything because it was entertaining.
Tycoon inc	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:18:00 - [56] Can we please stop *****ing about lossing your billions upon billions of ISK please? Come on anyone with an ounce of intellegence can see that the Upgrade system and Density of the new system changes are made to off set the costs. Further more this just means that the Tax system will be more into use. With ever upgrade there will be more asteroid/Rats/plex sites and maybe moon minable's. They have not released the exact things that will change with the Upgrades specifically. This right here is the age old thought process to the Old and "stable" world as we new it. "CCP just introduced a change, which within the barest of calculations (30 systems per region., 50 regions, 30 mil per day per system = 45 billion/day) creates a killer ISK sink. How long will it be before self-destructing Rokhs is the most profitable profession in EVE?" The wheels keep turning and dont ever stop so get use to change. The new way is Smaller space, more Pew Pew, more Big ship battles, and more deversity among the Star Systems in EVE. This is why CCP is changing the Sov system to give more of the player base the option to extend out into 0.0 I can not see how this will create an ISK sink in the future if at all ever with the rent system, and the Upgrade system really depends on if they level the Rent rate per Upgrade. There are atleast 10-15 THOUSAND players in 0.0 at almost any given moment. Even at the 30m a day divided among 8 thousand people is only 6 Million per person, damn that 15 minutes a day you have to actually Rat or mine to keep your Awesome home! In short..... Stop complaining damn..
skye orionis	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:37:00 - [57] Look the bottom line is that when alliance fight it creates a demand for ships and therefore materials, right now ship prices are at an all time low due to a lack of conflict across new eden. The new sov system requires PVE activity to raise money to maintain sov, which means fewer pilots PVP'ing, and a reduced desire to take over space since more space = more PVE 'maintenance'. Both these factors will reduce demand in markets further and make all those miners in hi-sec even poorer.
Cyntia Lelaert	Posted - 2009.11.12 04:10:00 - [58] Your analysis is missing something. And that's the answer to the question: Why? By this I mean, would the new system provide enough incentive for both combatants and non-combatants alike to put up with the ballache of 0.0 life? With the looming supercap nerfs not having sov may not be that big of a deal. A single alliance (or corp, really) with sov in a system not far from Jita could more than satisfy all the non-existent supercap needs of the whole server. The optimal solution may be to skip the upgrading ordeal and just get your pew on by ganking in empire. On the other hand, if holding sov provides massive economic incentives (over and above light grinding missions in empire to fund roaming megablob pew) then the effect will be the opposite of ISK sink. It'll be a major ISK firehose. Oh, and it's been about a month since self destructing Rokhs was the most profitable profession in Eve if you had enough prints and freighters.
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.11.12 11:10:00 - [59] every non-npc outpost and every jump bridge system costs more than a PLEX. soon we'll be able to enter GTcodes and credit card numbers right into out auto-pay function, just so the last bloke realizes what this is about. - putting the gist back into logistics

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