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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
rubico1337
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.11.10 05:09:00 -
[31]
i hope the next QEN has an in-depth analysis in the t3 market. for instance the phenomenon of the bottlenecks appearing (first NIM, now MNRs) suggests the underlying drop rates and build requirements have issues, to put it mildly
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Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club
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Posted - 2009.11.10 06:40:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Jei''son Bladesmith on 10/11/2009 06:41:22 holy crap, 18,000 banned RMT accounts and climbing, you go CCP! LONG LIVE UNHOLY RAGE!!
edit: so wait, "crap" is allowed but "****pit" still gets filtered? o_O
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Wormhole supervisory and Investigation team Blanket Men
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Posted - 2009.11.10 08:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Yon Krum
On another note, I'd love to see an analysis by our resident insider economist as to the deflationary effects of Unholy Rage, combined with estimates of the money supply, velocity of circulation, and what he expects to have happen when Dominion comes out and sucks trillions from the money supply each month. Hmm?
--Krum
This (would also be interesting to me).
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MILK Monk
Knights of the Silver Dawn Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:08:00 -
[34]
Thanks for another report.
Please try to use better resolution for graphs next time (actually vector graphic would be even more cool) :) __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way. |
Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.10 12:04:00 -
[35]
Congratulations Dr.Egg-Nogg, another good read thank you.
Hows Iceland's economy doing by the way? Still the cheap beers?
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Yarinor
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 12:10:00 -
[36]
Yay, I'm sick, guess I can print out this **** and go back to bed, just got up because I was bored.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.11.10 13:51:00 -
[37]
Over on SHC there has been some discussion about the fact that, seemingly, the data is based off a single snapshot.
EyjoG, how well do you think that your current method of finding the popularity of ships works? Do you think it's representative of the actual ship usage?
Would it be possible to pull the ship-data off TQ every x hours, for instance? In that case, it would be truly representative of what is being flown. Because right now, the data is seemingly not all that accurate.
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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Over on SHC there has been some discussion about the fact that, seemingly, the data is based off a single snapshot.
EyjoG, how well do you think that your current method of finding the popularity of ships works? Do you think it's representative of the actual ship usage?
Would it be possible to pull the ship-data off TQ every x hours, for instance? In that case, it would be truly representative of what is being flown. Because right now, the data is seemingly not all that accurate.
to do that you need a dedicated server for database queries i mean copy the back up from TQ and run on that server a server like that dedicates to queries can be over 500 000 $ |
Nekopyat
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Posted - 2009.11.10 15:09:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Yon Krum
It is this last point that we arrive at cries of "RL politics", because RL politics fall into two main camps of "regulate everything and centrally control the economy in some fashion" and "let the market work itself out". Mixtures of the two tend to create market distortions that ultimately reduce competition.
Hrm. While I am not sure how it would apply to ideal or virtual circumstances, in real life you need mixed economies in order to keep competition from being reduced. 'Pure' free markets only work as long as companies are weak compared to the government they exist within. As companies grow stronger they take on increasingly government like behaviors. As wealth and power concentrate, they can become de-factor mini governments with 'citizen/customers' that are shared between multiple entities.
They gain the ability to lock in customers and lock out competition, at which point you end up with something functionally equivalent to communism. It takes a strong government with the ability to regulate the larger companies to get competition going again.
A real life example (with current debate going on) would be American Broadband providers. Broadband providers are sufficiently powerful that they have successfully prevented competition, including legal methods to stop local governments from even trying to provide similar services. Since they control the copper, they can lock out any competition they like. The resource is semi-critical to most people but competition is low (or non-existent) so customers generally have the choice between service from a local monopoly, or no service. The providers have their own internal legal system and enforcement (law and police), taxation, and diplomatic (to other broadband providers and governments) aspects.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:14:00 -
[40]
Originally by: ceaon
to do that you need a dedicated server for database queries i mean copy the back up from TQ and run on that server a server like that dedicates to queries can be over 500 000 $
Well, the problem with pulling the data every hour is the load it will cause, if it's even possible to query each single sol node.
But I'm pretty sure that they won't need a 500k server for it. CCP has a bunch of TQ-like clusters as it is. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them was dedicated to the Research and Statistics team.
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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.10 17:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
But I'm pretty sure that they won't need a 500k server for it.
that depend on how much time u can wait, if you want to run that each hour u pretty need a dedicated server for that i bet TQ server dont have any SQL chips, running queries on huge data base like eve is not easy task |
Hunter Seth
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:37:00 -
[42]
some very interesting numbers.
One of the things I would have liked to see though is a comparison between total, active, inactive, reactivated and deleted accounts.
It may give recruiting corps an idea of how many people are typically expected to join the server after patch times or advertisment drives. It may also, however, tell us how many people decide to leave the game, specifically after patch times.
Maybe this type of information could be included in future QERs?
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Navell Phora
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Posted - 2009.11.10 23:47:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Navell Phora on 10/11/2009 23:50:13 It is true that totally free market will "stabilise" itself quicker than a more controlled market but at the same time the two extremes of the "stabilisation" are far further away from each other and the changes happen more often and they are more abrupt. A purely capitalistic system allows the markets to first totally overheat after which a total cooldown follows. In other words you have two seasons of mindless spending and total depression following each others. And when you only have an on/off switch for the market you will see a lot more variations and lot more of the two extremes than in a system where you can adjust the market and prevent overheating and have safe switches for cooldowns.
The history proves this. Whenever a greater freedom of economy has been in power a great depresssion has soonly followed. Wars are important part of this as well. Depressions are not caused by limiting and controlling the markets but by letting the markets take its natural course without intervention.
The whole idea of controlling markets with laws is not about regulation, it is about stability. Stability only comes out with regulation.
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Cinori Aluben
Minmatar The Salvaged
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Posted - 2009.11.11 01:36:00 -
[44]
First off: Thank You CCP & Eyjolfur for providing the QENs. I very much appreciate these QENs, as they are the pinnacle of the thinking man's game, and give us a snapshot into the game's underbelly. However, this particular QEN is sorely disappointing, not for the analysis itself, but what the analysis reveals, and what it attempts to gloss over.
The whole "application to real world free market" claim is all good and great, except that there's no way Eve could be completely considered a free market.
A free market is not one in which the supply is secretly seeded in order to drive down prices (Veldspar...? - Perhaps someone could attempt to justify this very non-laissez-faire act to me [and still maintain the free-market bit]?? Esp without notifying us?). In fact, to me, this more aptly mimics real world governmental systems' more heavy-handed approach of seeding the economy (with good or bad results - you decide e.g.- Cash for Clunkers). Read an older version of Halada's mining guide. Mining used to be actually worth the time for a group who was patient, organized, and skilled. Even at the recent mineral inflation, it wasn't worth half the time it used to be, and now, after deflating substantially, it's even more worthless. The deflation that was intended to hit Tritanium has gripped the entire market. That said, why is the Hulk the most widely piloted vessel during an instanteous snapshot? Highsec mining alts that never leave their hulks, and never get their hulks destroyed less risked. It's cheap to buy a predeveloped mining alt on the char trade forums too.
IMHO, couple this revelation with the devastatingly dismal proposals for 'upgrading' 0.0 space (and I'm not even in a nullsec alliance): CCP is trying hard to decrease total liquid ISK in game, and crimp the potential inflow lanes of ISK as well. Why? 1) To sell more gametime, cuz you'll have to play longer to get what you want. 2) To de-homogenize large player groups - alliances (both good and bad really - we'll see how this turns out in Dominion), 3) To sell PLEXes since they're now losing all those 18,000 paying monthly accounts (ehem ≈ $270,000/mo). 4) To drive down PLEX worth in ISK, so you have to buy&sell more of them to get your Titans (see: Russian Aluminum Tycoon dumps >$100k into PLEX/GTC to buy Titans for his corp).
Eve is the best MMO on the market, hands down. CCP is a fantastic company, with exemplary goals and ideals, and an atypical hunger to please its playerbase. However, do please remember that even the best governments have highly educated, jargon-spewing propagandists.
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Altaree
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.11 03:43:00 -
[45]
Could the drop in drone stuff also have been caused by the recent wars in the drone regions? Just a thought... --Altaree
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.11 03:57:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Navell Phora
The history proves this. Whenever a greater freedom of economy has been in power a great depresssion has soonly followed. Wars are important part of this as well. Depressions are not caused by limiting and controlling the markets but by letting the markets take its natural course without intervention.
The whole idea of controlling markets with laws is not about regulation, it is about stability. Stability only comes out with regulation.
Well now we really are in "RL-land".
Arguably the role of government in economic affairs is to ensure that participants do not engage in behavior widely regarded as negative to the social order--namely some flavor of thievery, breach of contract, murder, or other lying. Regulation to "shape" the economy has, historically, been responsible for the cyclical "boom and bust" of depressions by creating market "bubbles" beforehand. The Great Depression is the most famous example of this, though I'm sure the recent American hardships will rival it over time, and analysis points firmly toward severe price (supply) distortions caused by US state and local government urban planning or land-use regulations.
Wars are a great way to redistribute wealth rapidly, based primarily on ability rather than any concept of equity (ie. you get what you can carry back, if you win). The US did very well after WW2 because the rest of the world was flatlined. Conflicts going back further in history show similar, if more regional, patterns. He who wins gets the stuff. Ask the Georgians how they fared following 8 invasions by Timur the Lame, if you want the alternative story.
Let's close this part of the discussion, in this thread, by agreeing on a simple truth: economists are much like magicians, turning staves into snakes before the king to see who's gets eaten by the other. Arguements like the above are the bread-and-butter of many a dismal scientist, and won't be solved here.
---
Back to EVE.
I noticed that the last chart includes some discussion of Glossy Compound prices, but the Unholy Rage details previously focus exclusively on highsec mission-runner bannings. I am sure that CCP is aware of the extensive macro-ratting use that goes on, for example, in the drone regions. Please say a bit more about what has happened there, as I suspect any actions could (and did) go a long way toward the highend mineral price increases during the quarter.
--Krum
--Krum |
Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.11 04:04:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Altaree Could the drop in drone stuff also have been caused by the recent wars in the drone regions? Just a thought...
The major wars in the drone regions ended in June, prior to any Q3 drops. It's *possible* that lagging sales of stocks may have had something to do with it, however. Eliminating ED and IRC, which were churning out massive amounts of minerals, probably helped, but don't explain all of it.
A LOT of minerals were sucked up by alliance-level orders (and taxes) and turned into cap components (hint: how you make money in drone regions, btw), which were then sold for isk with the value-add bonus.
But these wars did not touch the large number of renters employed by the other alliances in the DR, who's members often (but not always) exhibit behavior typical of macros. Hence, I wonder what effect Unholy Rage had on 0.0 macro-ers?
--Krum --Krum |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.11.11 08:00:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Yon Krum On another note, I'd love to see an analysis by our resident insider economist as to à what he expects to have happen when Dominion comes out and sucks trillions from the money supply each month. Hmm?
--Krum
I think you'll be finding more money injected into the economy due to the large number of DED complexes and wormholes that will be farmed from small numbers of nullsec systems. 10 permanent DEDs in a system with a fully upgraded Entrapment beacon. That's going to bring in about 400M ISK/hr, wouldn't you say?
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.11.11 08:10:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Yon Krum Regulation to "shape" the economy has, historically, been responsible for the cyclical "boom and bust" of depressions by creating market "bubbles" beforehand. The Great Depression is the most famous example of this
It is the Great Depression that led the Government to regulate the banks more tightly. It is the banks convincing the government to loosen the reins that led to the Global Economic Crisis. Ask Alan Greenspan about how much he believes in the ability of the financial industry to regulate itself now.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.11 13:00:00 -
[50]
Please, please, please, please, can we have the QEN in a format which can be printed.
This, and the previous, QEN is formatted as page spreads, which is fine if you're reading it online but absolutely pointless if you're printing the thing out for perusal at leisure.
Yes, the page spread means that illustrations aren't hacked about by the page boundary. But I'm more interested in the content than the pretty pictures. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.11.11 19:38:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Some interesting points ive noticed.
Dreads dropped nearly 25%
....
The other issue I have seen. Black ops being the most unused ship. in other words...
THERE ARE MORE TITANS THEN BLACK OPS!
Bear in mind the data you are seeing is a snapshot of whatever ship the character was in at the time. There are many reasons why someone may not be in a dread from snapshot to snapshot and same with black ops (roles which are ad-hoc/seldom needed) or ships you cannot easily switch from such as supercapitals.
The ship you currently have active is not really analogous with its use or popularity but is an approximate indicator though would be ideally combined with both numbers manufactured/total in existence/numbers traded/numbers destroyed for example.
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tx eight
Minmatar Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.11.11 20:05:00 -
[52]
Edited by: tx eight on 11/11/2009 20:09:00
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Bear in mind the data you are seeing is a snapshot of whatever ship the character was in at the time.
You people should have a data-mining guy on team, consulting, or at least make this Dr. Economist read up something on subject.
If you counted characters capable of flying each respective capital ship class, then counted every cap ship of that class in posession of a corp or any of its members, then combined these two numbers, applied a completely arbitrary fudge (economics can't live without that), then we would have had numbers to discuss.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.14 23:57:00 -
[53]
CCP needs a new economist. One that plays Eve. This guy is terrible.
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Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.15 05:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Yon Krum Regulation to "shape" the economy has, historically, been responsible for the cyclical "boom and bust" of depressions by creating market "bubbles" beforehand. The Great Depression is the most famous example of this
It is the Great Depression that led the government to regulate the banks more tightly. It is the banks convincing the government to loosen the reigns that led to the Global Economic Crisis. Ask Alan Greenspan about how much he believes in the ability of the financial industry to regulate itself now.
QFT. As some people don't live in the RL-Land.
I went Socialist after I saw the "House-Flipping Bubble" try to take down the world. At least liquor is cheaper(in Iceland). 7 |
Epitrope
The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.15 10:47:00 -
[55]
So, I have a note and a question. First, on page 25 (pdf page 13), you describe the graph as green and purple. The original Unholy Rage dev blog graph is green and purple, and the graph in the QEN does look nicer, but I think you may have cleaned up the graph and overlooked the text.
Secondly, are the full contents of the various indexes documented anywhere? As I understand it, they were introduced in the first QEN, and while some numbers were mentioned regarding their size, I don't think I've seen an actual list anywhere. The mineral index is pretty obvious, of course, but the others get kind of big and I'm not entirely clear on what item types fall where.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.16 10:34:00 -
[56]
Tritanium?
Tell us about Technetium!
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Zenithil
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Posted - 2009.11.17 08:04:00 -
[57]
Ah, so it is due to this Unholy Rage that I am now able to mine. I was wondering how come so many roids are now available in High sec. Good to know about this special development.
And yes, I have been out of loop for quite some time and recently reactivated the account.
On other note, QEN publishers must really love Caldari. I mean come one guys, how about a snapshot or two from other races too, eh? :)
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Anneesh Rynn
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Posted - 2009.11.17 20:13:00 -
[58]
Sorry incorrect, Unholy Rage is not the reason you are finding roids to mine it is entirely because CCP set all belts to respawn daily.
I find it interesting that CCP chose to focus on the effects of Unholy Rage when clearly they didn't have much overall impact on the market, while the R64 POS Reactor issue went completely unmentioned and and had a devestating impact on T2 production and market.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:18:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Anneesh Rynn Sorry incorrect, Unholy Rage is not the reason you are finding roids to mine it is entirely because CCP set all belts to respawn daily.
I find it interesting that CCP chose to focus on the effects of Unholy Rage when clearly they didn't have much overall impact on the market, while the R64 POS Reactor issue went completely unmentioned and and had a devestating impact on T2 production and market.
While the first sentence sounds correct, the second is not.
CCP chose to kill RMT farmers as top focus, as they both exploit the game AND ruin its economy AND do it for RL money. RMT farmers in all the MMOs tend to exploit the easily accessed, most bottable features.
The R64 cheaters, while also being exploiters had an high entry barrier, ie not every fresh RMT farmer could get his R64 moon to exploit. So, the R64 cheaters would still do a bannable offence, but their impact on the RL money farming was much smaller than those who botted roids and L4 missions.
AFAIK someone calculated that with the old 4 isk pu tritanium, a botted 24/7 hulk could make half a trillion a year. Now compare how many R64 there are vs how many hulks there have been (hint: as per the QEN, hulks are the top played ship in EvE). - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Varg Tepes
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.20 12:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha AFAIK someone calculated that with the old 4 isk pu tritanium, a botted 24/7 hulk could make half a trillion a year. Now compare how many R64 there are vs how many hulks there have been (hint: as per the QEN, hulks are the top played ship in EvE).
If you can run a Hulk in EVE 24/7... Then you truly are a masterminded criminal I would REALY like to know how they can mine in a Hulk at Downtime.. Not to mention the 2 patches that CCP gives u each year.. thats like 3-4 weeks downtime (or as stated before patch, 2-3 hour, but we all now the Icelandic cant count ).
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