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HongHi Choi AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.11 13:59:00 - [1] Most of us are aware of the problem of there being a fixed number of T2 BPOs seeded a LONG time ago, and no plans of there being a system of seeding new ones. The result: T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO owners, and nothing can be done about that. The solution I present my friends is simple, and it rests on RL reason. Now... It would be logical that when someone works on some field of research, at some time in his life he develops something (fairly) original. Earlier this was reflected by research agents hoarding your RP, then lottery, and voila. No more! You have to play for your earns. Fair, says I! So make em work... The invention system works fine, if you ask me, although it's a pain to ivent sometimes, getting crude BPCs, which are even harder to sell. Not for some eh? I agree. BUT - I think it would be a good idea to reward dedicated inventors, by allowing them to actually "invent" something "original". Long story short: Add a reasonably small chance of invention actually resulting in an original T2 BPO. The chance i propose would be astronomically small, so that short term inventors would have almost no chance at all for inventing a T2 BPO. On the other hand, a dedicated inventor, running job after job, having high research levels, investing loads of money running up to 10 jobs, would have a reasonable chance to get a T2 BPO in the course of say... one year. Another idea would be to add an astronomically small chance for T2 BPOs to drop at some high-end, high risk, hacking and/or archeology sites.
Rhinanna Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.11 14:09:00 - [2] Supported 100%... to both, preferably at the same time. Adding another 50-100 BPOs a year will reduce the massively high price of BPOs at the moment. The chance will be low enough that its impossible to deliberately make BPOs and its a fair way for newer players to get access to them. Overall I think even a player doing full invention for a year would probably be best off having a below 10% chance of getting 1 BPO in a year so you don't get too many BPOs flooding the market. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag)
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:48:00 - [3] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 11/11/2009 16:48:49 As a T2 BPO holder I support this idea. More BPOs and not less, an end to the eternal grind for the poor inventors, make inventing actually do that and not just grant leases to produce. Unfortunately when CCP nerf something it's with a hammer not the screwdriver. Hopefully in time they will realize that there need to be an overall goal for invention other than just copies upon copies to keep people interested. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Charlotte Vanderbeam	Posted - 2009.11.11 17:03:00 - [4] Originally by: HongHi Choi Most of us are aware of the problem of there being a fixed number of T2 BPOs seeded a LONG time ago, and no plans of there being a system of seeding new ones. The result: T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO owners, and nothing can be done about that. stopped reading right there, as it is just plain wrong and makes everything you might say afterwards pointless inventors dictate the t2 market, the only thing that t2 BPO owners provide are a bottom line for mods not worth inventing invention is the "fix" to t2 BPOs and it is working quite well not saying it couldnt be improved by giving more diverse decryptor choices with different ME/PE modfiers or by allowing to combine BPCs to one with more runs or inventing 100 run BPCs instead of 10 run ones directly for 10x the input etc but the general concept is spot on
Elldranga	Posted - 2009.11.11 17:04:00 - [5] You need a problem before you need a solution. Why don't you look up a bit of info regarding how much of the market is produced by T2 BPO's before claiming that the T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO's? Just saying....
Yolo Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:45:00 - [6] Just start the old lottery back up. Keep it running. Eventually enough t2 bpo's will be out and about.
HongHi Choi AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:47:00 - [7] Edited by: HongHi Choi on 11/11/2009 18:48:53 I admit that I am perhaps wrong about who is dictating the market. But even as a short time inventor I sure ah hell can claim, that no inventor can compete with the build cost of the T2 BPO owners. The best me can be -1, giving 20% more waste to build a ship, compared to a briefly researched T2 BPO. So then you decide, ok... i'm going to build a ship with this - guess what, not only do you need to count build inefficiency of your BPC, but the cost of it as well, further upping the cost of a T2 ship. The result is still the same: T2 ships being sold at a margin of 138% of their build cost for T2 BPO owners, and a mere 26.8% margin for invention builders (not necessarily inventors though). So now that i think of it - i was right in the first place. An invented BPO is barely competition for an original. For the market to stabilize, you would need proper competition.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:27:00 - [8] If they were not going to just delete T2 BPO's, the idea of a small chance of a T2 bpo being the result of an invention job is a good one.
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:41:00 - [9] there is only 1 fix we need for invention: let the ME/PE research of the t1 bpc affect the t2 bpc. then it would finally make sense to research your invention bpcs.
Kell Braugh Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.11 20:01:00 - [10] How bout not making it so complicated and you just mak mag sites drop ME0 PE0 T2 Bpc for not just rigs (and only large rigs ffs!), but mods and ships too? You'd have a new side, invisible hand supply of non neg ME T2 BPOs... - In essence, any combat related activity involving damage has been 'speed nerfed' to just take 6 times longer with a predetermined outcome coined balance by CCP.

Whitehound	Posted - 2009.11.11 20:07:00 - [11] Originally by: Sig Sour If they were not going to just delete T2 BPO's, the idea of a small chance of a T2 bpo being the result of an invention job is a good one. This sounds really good. It will likely result in more T2 inventions, thereby increase the number of products and sellers, increase the competition, and lead to lower prices for T2 products. At the same time will players not have to reinvent the whole thing over and over again, but end up with an original and allow them to move on with their research and do other things. /signed --
John Blackthorn Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.11.11 20:36:00 - [12] You really shouln't release more t2 bpo's until there profitable to produce. I own a Raptor Interceptor BPO and havn't produced one in two years now. I can mine minerals for the base t1 ship, built it, mine minerals for the starship rdb and build that, mine a few pieces of merc. And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders. Then put the ship together and find out i've spent 1M more than what the ship is selling for in jita. Just no reason to build it.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.11.11 20:51:00 - [13] Originally by: John Blackthorn ... And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders. ... I see your problem. Jita offers the best (highest) buy orders when you want to sell something. You do not use buy orders at Jita for buying your raw materials. Jita is more of an end-customer market than a market for B2B (business to business). --
Xonus Calimar Terra Incognita	Posted - 2009.11.11 21:07:00 - [14] Edited by: Xonus Calimar on 11/11/2009 21:10:40 Originally by: John Blackthorn And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders. There's your problem... Anyways, I would fully support an invention-based method for acquiring a Tech 2 BPO. Perhaps if it was based on pursuing a specific invention job for an extended period? Number of jobs successfully completed for a particular ship/module/rig/ammo would give slightly better chances for a BPO being invented for that item? Just some thoughts... Edit: Bah, beat me to it, but yeah, what he said. Don't buy components.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.11 21:14:00 - [15] It will delete invention very fast, you are right. Astronomically small chance. Let's say 1/10.000. It is good for astronomically small? 40.000 inventors, 10 jobs day = 40 BPO/day, 14.600 in one year. (ship invention require multiple days, but module invention require hours) Number of BPO seeded (included ammunitions) 10.000. Increase in 1 year 146%.
Rhinanna Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.11 21:58:00 - [16] Originally by: John Blackthorn You really shouln't release more t2 bpo's until there profitable to produce. I own a Raptor Interceptor BPO and havn't produced one in two years now. I can mine minerals for the base t1 ship, built it, mine minerals for the starship rdb and build that, mine a few pieces of merc. And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders. Then put the ship together and find out i've spent 1M more than what the ship is selling for in jita. Just no reason to build it. Thats exactly the point of these changes, the BPOs would almost entirely be based on the stuff that people are making inventing, so will likely be the stuff that currently has high demand and profit margins. As for a 1/10000 chance, I was thinking more like 1/1000000 or less per job per day been purely based on the time taken for the job so shorter jobs have a lower chance. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag)
HongHi Choi AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.11 22:01:00 - [17] Edited by: HongHi Choi on 11/11/2009 22:01:17 Originally by: Venkul Mul It will delete invention very fast, you are right. Astronomically small chance. Let's say 1/10.000. It is good for astronomically small? 40.000 inventors, 10 jobs day = 40 BPO/day, 14.600 in one year. (ship invention require multiple days, but module invention require hours) Number of BPO seeded (included ammunitions) 10.000. Increase in 1 year 146%. I've intentionally left out the numbers and said astronomically small. To come up with actuall numbers I would need to do much more serious calculations than that. I'd need an estimate of players in eve, and estimate in players doing invention, then put some skill proportions to reflect efficiency at invention, so on and so forth... it can be done, and without harm to the market hopefully. And btw, even if you would seed them directly to the market (available to any pilot at a fixed price) like T1s, it still wouldn't "flood" the market and brake it in any way. It would rather stabilize it (as is the case now with the T1s).
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.11 22:23:00 - [18] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 11/11/2009 22:24:15 One of my chars once started inventions as I thought it would be cool. Then, after I spend half a year skilling, I did what I should have done BEFORE I started the training. Calculated the price for some T2 stuff. And the only stuff worth inventing is the one, where under garantie is no BPO => EW-Frigs, HDictors and so on. Stuff which is intruduced after this lottery. Anythink else == not worth the affort as the need for inventing items (decryptos, BPC, tower with labs as all NPC slots are full anyway) is far to high to compeet with BPO owners. I might be able to buy a BPO, but to get the invested money back will take 2 to 10 years. So as long as there are T2 BPOs and no way to get one without paying trillions to some yerks ... it's just not worth the time/isk to bother with.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2009.11.12 00:33:00 - [19] Originally by: HongHi Choi So then you decide, ok... i'm going to build a ship with this - guess what, not only do you need to count build inefficiency of your BPC, but the cost of it as well, further upping the cost of a T2 ship. The result is still the same: T2 ships being sold at a margin of 138% of their build cost for T2 BPO owners, and a mere 26.8% margin for invention builders (not necessarily inventors though). and how many production lines can you run with a BPO ? one with invented BPCs? 11 on a max skilled char, indefinte with enough characters so it is the t2 BPO that really cant keep up with the invention not the other way around and lets not even start investment here, the BPO prolly got bought by its present owner for 10s of billions, the inventor needs only a tiny fraction of that to set up his production and make more profit in total by simply running more assembly lines
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.11.12 01:13:00 - [20] Here we go again. Originally by: HongHi Choi Most of us are aware of the problem of there being a fixed number of T2 BPOs seeded a LONG time ago, and no plans of there being a system of seeding new ones. Nope, I don't see a problem there. The only problem I see is the mechanics of invention being too prone too luck/bad luck and producing too expensive products compared to the ones produced from BPOs. Originally by: HongHi Choi The result: T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO owners, and nothing can be done about that. Wrong. Several modules and ships don't have a T2 BPO and still the market looks just the same there. Market is dictated by competition. That's all. T2 BPO owners on popular items can't even lower the market average, because they don't produce enough. For unpopular items it's pretty much irrelevant, because people don't want to produce those things anyway, since it's unprofitable. Apart from that.. "T2 BPOs are a problem. Let's have a couple more T2 BPOs!" doesn't make sense to me. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"

Kanatta Jing	Posted - 2009.11.12 01:54:00 - [21] I thought BPO ruled T2 ship production and inventors ruled Mod production, because you could sacrifice meta 4 modules to increase invention chance. At least that's what I read in the Production flier.
Xander XacXorien	Posted - 2009.11.12 02:11:00 - [22] "BUT - I think it would be a good idea to reward dedicated inventors, by allowing them to actually "invent" something "original". Long story short:" Hmmm, well they are rewarded - they invent BPC's. The net result of being extra rewarded with a T2 BPO would be dumbing down the invention system to being pointless because there are far too many T2 BPO's, hence ruining the invention "game" for noobs. I wouldn't argue for more T2 BPO's I would argue for less and if anything increase invention runs. If you are bored of invention and don't want to do it any more do something else. If you have an idea to make invention more interesting then that would be more appropiate.
Alezander Jagen JagenCorp Combat Industries	Posted - 2009.11.12 03:28:00 - [23] I'm assuming that most of the people going "eff no!" are those who currently own T2 BPOs. You need to get off your throne and give others a chance at the money you're raking in by being really lucky (or by already having a ton of money and buying a BPO off of someone else). By increasing the amount of BPOs in the system, you increase competition and lower prices. With lower prices, more people start using T2 ships and gear (excepting those who have enough money for best-named but no T2 skills) and you get more customers. Thus, you keep your profits, and we get to kill more noobs in shiney ill-fit T2 ships. I personally like the idea of inventors having a 1:1,000,000 chance of coming out with a ME0, PE0 BPO each time they invent. What would take the most work is getting the numbers right to only add 4 or 5 BPOs per mod/ship a year. Would this make me start inventing myself? No. But, it's a bonus to those who currently are.
Zahorite	Posted - 2009.11.12 04:00:00 - [24] Edited by: Zahorite on 12/11/2009 04:00:15 I agree with this idea, even posted it in a thread a few weeks ago. And to all the T2 BPO holder's currently out there, right now Eve population is continually increasing. If it's possible to match the chance of invention to something close to the increase in players then it wouldn't decrease the value of current T2 BPO's. I'd roughly time it to double the current T2 BPO in around 3 years based on current invention, this will end up around 2 years as this causes more players to start inventing. In 2 years with any luck the Eve population should be around double, even if it's not quite that it should increase a bit. The real point here is that you are giving inventors a chance to really get something good. It doesn't matter if they only have a one in a hundred chance after a year of work. The chance is still there. If they want the isk they can sell the BPO when they get it, if they want to start using it themselves they can do that also. Another thing I would do is base the chance off of succesfully completed inventions. This means that players with higher skills will have a slightly higher chance. Also it will mean that we will see a lot less say Marauder BPO's than Interceptor BPO's, which is how it should be. Also we will see more BPO's of items that are used more often since most inventor's even after these changes won't invent stuff that they can't sell easily.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.11.12 04:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Alezander Jagen I'm assuming that most of the people going "eff no!" are those who currently own T2 BPOs. Yes and no. I own one T2 BPO. And it's no ship, mind you. Apart from that I also do some invention. So I know both aspects to a certain degree. Being on a high throne is a bit of an unfounded insinuation. It might be that some of the T2 BPo owners just have a better understanding of the big picture. What more T2 BPOs would do is just increase supply and low-price competition. Yes it would probably drive prices down. And by that it would be very bad for inventors, the group many claim to represent. What it would also do is drive down T2 BPO prices. But why? Simply because they would be worth less.. That's the bottom line. Margins will always be low. If you increase supply and number of T2 BPOs, they will just be even lower. On a side note, prices for T2 are really low, just as prices for T1 ships are on an all time low. Imho they don't need to drop even more, or otherwise blowing up a shiny T2 ship isn't much of an achievement or loss, both for the winner and the victim. T2 BPOs are just like titans. Not limiting their numbers (by whatever means necessary) is a very bad idea. Boost invention instead. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Acurra Sanstime	Posted - 2009.11.12 08:16:00 - [26] This topic will not go away... As previously stated T2 BPO holders are not the main determinateness of market price, the biggest thing buy far is the cost of moon goo which of course is the basis of all t2 production. It is true that BPO holders margins are much much higher than inventors but, inventors have the ability to produce much much more. If we look at it form another view why would the t2 BPO holder severely undercut the inventor? is it in his best interest to sell at 99 million isk when market average is at 120 million?? No of course not t2 BPO holders obey the same general market rules that every producer in the game fallows which is related back to supply and demand. The only time you see a item that is produced at a loss for invention is when you have a low volume "niche" item that has few inventors. Or popular items that are produced by idiots. By idiots i mean the people that dont do their math and do stupid things like say "i got these data cores from my resurch agent therefore they are free and dont factor into my cost at all" Before we all go jump on the GET MORE T2 BPO bandwagon lets see what dominion does with the restuctureing of component cost. I believe that it will severely increase the supply and drop prices accordingly, then we can all sleep better at night knowing our vagas and zealots will cost half as much. For the record I do not own a t2 BPO
fuze Gallente Quam Singulari Cult of War	Posted - 2009.11.12 13:08:00 - [27] Since this is mentioned countless times before: Why not reverse engineer T2 items and have a very small chance of getting a BPO out of it. It will ofc destroy the researched item and take a long time and lot of extra resources and level V skills.
Vadimik Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.12 14:03:00 - [28] Edited by: Vadimik on 12/11/2009 14:05:03 Your do realise that every time you introduce anything that combines the words "T2 BPO" and "small chance to get one" you are reviving the lottery, right? Ri-i-i-i-ght?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.12 20:17:00 - [29] Originally by: HongHi Choi Edited by: HongHi Choi on 11/11/2009 22:01:17 Originally by: Venkul Mul It will delete invention very fast, you are right. Astronomically small chance. Let's say 1/10.000. It is good for astronomically small? 40.000 inventors, 10 jobs day = 40 BPO/day, 14.600 in one year. (ship invention require multiple days, but module invention require hours) Number of BPO seeded (included ammunitions) 10.000. Increase in 1 year 146%. I've intentionally left out the numbers and said astronomically small. To come up with actuall numbers I would need to do much more serious calculations than that. I'd need an estimate of players in eve, and estimate in players doing invention, then put some skill proportions to reflect efficiency at invention, so on and so forth... it can be done, and without harm to the market hopefully. And btw, even if you would seed them directly to the market (available to any pilot at a fixed price) like T1s, it still wouldn't "flood" the market and brake it in any way. It would rather stabilize it (as is the case now with the T1s). If you haven't noticed the only thing "braking" the T1 market is the insurance scam that function as a floor for mineral prices. Widespread T2 BPO will do exactly the same: putting the price of all T2 items at production cost +2-5%. Inventor are already reducing most T2 items return to the minimum value, but at least with invention, if you do your research, you can move to another item and get good returns until the mass of inventors discover it. Then you move to another item while the mass depreciate the previously remunerative item, after switching a few time you can return to the first item of the list as the mass has moved on and the price recovered. If instead a few people get a BPO they will continue to produce the item because they have a BPO. Seed (any way) enough BPO and all the prices go to the bottom floor. BTW: giving any chance of getting a BPO from a BPc is a bad mechanic. If you want a BPo start from a BPO.
Grarr Wrexx	Posted - 2009.11.12 21:06:00 - [30] Don't fix what ain't broken. 95% of the current T2 BPO holders have acquired it by means other than the lottery. You would be ruining them.

Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.11.12 21:19:00 - [31] this seems incredible chance based. It's quite possible someone who just takes a quick stab at invention may get extremely lucky and win a bpo. Yet someone who does invention non-stop all day for 3 years gets none. a bit too much random luck in this sorta system. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.12 21:37:00 - [32] i always though they would make good tourney prizes
HongHi Choi AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.13 12:26:00 - [33] Originally by: Xander XacXorien The net result of being extra rewarded with a T2 BPO would be dumbing down the invention system to being pointless because there are far too many T2 BPO's, hence ruining the invention "game" for noobs. I wouldn't argue for more T2 BPO's I would argue for less and if anything increase invention runs. I think that you are partially right. However, my assumption is that at some point invention would cross over from being "builders job", to being the "researchers job". That is, the inventors would cross over from inventing for BPCs with short term profit, to inventing for BPOs for long term profit. The invetion will then have to take some minor fixes. Originally by: Alezander Jagen By increasing the amount of BPOs in the system, you increase competition and lower prices. With lower prices, more people start using T2 ships and gear (excepting those who have enough money for best-named but no T2 skills) and you get more customers. Thus, you keep your profits, and we get to kill more noobs in shiney ill-fit T2 ships. That's the idea. Originally by: Tarron Sarek 1) What more T2 BPOs would do is just increase supply and low-price competition. Yes it would probably drive prices down. And by that it would be very bad for inventors, the group many claim to represent. 2) What it would also do is drive down T2 BPO prices. But why? Simply because they would be worth less.. 3) On a side note, prices for T2 are really low, just as prices for T1 ships are on an all time low. Imho they don't need to drop even more, or otherwise blowing up a shiny T2 ship isn't much of an achievement or loss, both for the winner and the victim. 1) True. Read previous argument in this post. 2) Yes. In this way we also fight the RL ISK market, which is good. Btw, noticed the T1 BPO market? 3) Really low?! Did you eve read my replies? Now I might be mistaken when the mods are considered (will do more reasearch), but margins for ships are about 140%. Originally by: Vadimik You do realise that every time you introduce anything that combines the words "T2 BPO" and "small chance to get one" you are reviving the lottery, right? Untrue. Lottery was "sit on my ass and wait to get rich". This system would require that you actually work your a off, to eventually get reward. In other words, worth only for those who have decided to do invention to be one of the main ways they make ISK. Originally by:** Typhado3 this seems incredible chance based. It's quite possible someone who just takes a quick stab at invention may get extremely lucky and win a bpo. Yet someone who does invention non-stop all day for 3 years gets none. a bit too much random luck in this sorta system. Worry not. We, the physicists, deal a lot with probability, and chances like this are usually interpreted as no chance at all.
vdude	Posted - 2009.11.13 12:50:00 - [34] http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/Petitions/PetitionDetails.aspx?20091113-1777857-F0AFA1E1 this is a petition for t2 bpo. Yes it is unfair. But adding lottery for t2 bpc with higher material will solve the problem. blueprint copies can't be coppied, and can't be researched, but still would gain a big benefit for someone. And i think best would be to cancel t2 BPO - owners allready have been awarded (by earning they made till now), and ccp could give them an final BPC instead of those BPO. Problem would be resolved like this, lottery reward system: t2 bpc - would be an replacement for the t2 BPO. faction BPC award t1 BPO New players would have same chance, and it would add some joy, no more need to reduce the number or BPO and this could function forever.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.11.13 13:10:00 - [35] We also need moar T3 BPO's because the current T3 BPO holders are clearly ruining the market facepalm Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator
venturestar01	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:40:00 - [36] The thing with T2 BPO's is that people who won them or "won" them probably can make profit out of them or even sell em for alot more money. In comparison you have cap's build in empire wich may not be used too get an unfair advantage over other players, for example lvl 4 mission running. So why do certain players get too hold on to an unfair advantage and others not?
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.11.13 17:55:00 - [37] Edited by: darius mclever on 13/11/2009 17:57:05 Originally by: venturestar01 The thing with T2 BPO's is that people who won them or "won" them probably can make profit out of them or even sell em for alot more money. In comparison you have cap's build in empire wich may not be used too get an unfair advantage over other players, for example lvl 4 mission running. So why do certain players get too hold on to an unfair advantage and others not? there is only one T2 bpo problem. but thats in the head of the people who are jealous that they dont have one. if at all let the input ME/PE go into the ME/PE for the t2 bpc you get. so if you have a perfectly researched t1 bpc (practical loss in materials is 0), you get a t2 bpc with ME0/PE0. then the new faction labs with lots of me/pe slots would get lots of work as everyone is researching their invention bpos to a level that they get decent output ME/PE for the t2 copies. (disclaimer: i dont own any t2 bpo, but i happily get rich with invention.)
Vadimik Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.13 19:04:00 - [38] Quote: Untrue. Lottery was "sit on my ass and wait to get rich". This system would require that you actually work your a** off, to eventually get reward. In other words, worth only for those who have decided to do invention to be one of the main ways they make ISK. You have no idea, don't you? I have a POS I can get running within a few hours inventing, say, tech II drones. 10's if not 100's of runs a day. And it requires a few minutes a day to get the invention running, plus a hour or two on a weekend for general logistics. It's nowhere a "hard" work. Not "harder" then the research missions we used to have for sure. And given the chance-based nature, it's exactly reviving the lottery.
Brock Lando	Posted - 2009.11.13 19:51:00 - [39] Not supported at all, this isn't any better then the T2 BPO lottery, it IS a lottery. If you want to fix the mess, 1) Turn T2 BPOs in high run BPCs (1 year+ worth of production if you like, so they approach the value of what they are currently being traded for) 2) Improve the efficiency levels of inventended BPCs
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.11.13 22:16:00 - [40] Originally by: Brock Lando Not supported at all, this isn't any better then the T2 BPO lottery, it IS a lottery. If you want to fix the mess, 1) Turn T2 BPOs in high run BPCs (1 year+ worth of production if you like, so they approach the value of what they are currently being traded for) 2) Improve the efficiency levels of inventended BPCs current t2 bpo prices range more around 3years for return of investment.

Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.11.13 22:31:00 - [41] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Brock Lando Not supported at all, this isn't any better then the T2 BPO lottery, it IS a lottery. If you want to fix the mess, 1) Turn T2 BPOs in high run BPCs (1 year+ worth of production if you like, so they approach the value of what they are currently being traded for) 2) Improve the efficiency levels of inventended BPCs current t2 bpo prices range more around 3years for return of investment. Current T2 BPO prices are inflated by around 500%. --------
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.11.13 23:03:00 - [42] Originally by: vdude But adding lottery for t2 bpc with higher material will solve the problem. This was my proposal for a 'T2 BPO fix' for a long time. Simply changing the lottery to BPCs instead of BPOs would've been an interesting alternative to invention. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.13 23:33:00 - [43] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 13/11/2009 23:36:43 Originally by: Grarr Wrexx Don't fix what ain't broken. 95% of the current T2 BPO holders have acquired it by means other than the lottery. You would be ruining them. How would it be ruining them any more than invention when introduced ruined them a first time around? How many times can the sky fall in one place? Offering an end to the eternal grind is an act of mercy, nothing more. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.11.13 23:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 13/11/2009 23:09:44 Originally by: vdude But adding lottery for t2 bpc with higher material will solve the problem. This was my proposal for a 'T2 BPO fix' for a long time. Simply changing the lottery to BPCs instead of BPOs would've been an interesting alternative to invention. Originally by: darius mclever if at all let the input ME/PE go into the ME/PE for the t2 bpc you get. so if you have a perfectly researched t1 bpc (practical loss in materials is 0), you get a t2 bpc with ME0/PE0. This is an interesting suggestion, because letting ME/PE influence the outcome ME/PE without any further restrictions is problematic, since there is no limit. So if the max you could get was ME0/PE0, I guess that could work. I'm no big supporter of one-time investments, though, so still a bit sceptical about that. Imho effort should be the most important factor, not time. Many perfectly researched T1 BPOs have such a high ME/PE simply because the owner was bored or didn't have anything else to do with the BPO or the labs. i was thinking in the range of you need to get a perfect researched bpo for a ME0/PE0 t2. e.g. for an 200mm rails bpo that would mean ME 820.;) so with the average researched bpo you end up with something like me-2 maybe. still an improvement. if you want to get lets say ME4 for the t2 bpc you would need to research it to ME1640. thats 228 days ME research! it gets even worse with bigger modules and ships.
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.11.14 00:02:00 - [45] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: darius mclever current t2 bpo prices range more around 3years for return of investment. Current T2 BPO prices are inflated by around 500%. agreed. but do you really expect them to go down ever? at the current rate of inflation, they will become kind of trophies pretty quickly.
venturestar01	Posted - 2009.11.14 00:06:00 - [46] Originally by: darius mclever there is only one T2 bpo problem. but thats in the head of the people who are jealous that they dont have one. I would not call every person who is questioning T2 BPO's jealous. The issue is really simple, does someone who won (not bought) a T2 BPO have an advantage over the rest of the playerbase?
Equinocs	Posted - 2009.11.14 00:19:00 - [47] Edited by: Equinocs on 14/11/2009 00:22:21 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: darius mclever if at all let the input ME/PE go into the ME/PE for the t2 bpc you get. so if you have a perfectly researched t1 bpc (practical loss in materials is 0), you get a t2 bpc with ME0/PE0. This is an interesting suggestion, because letting ME/PE influence the outcome ME/PE without any further restrictions is problematic, since there is no limit. So if the max you could get was ME0/PE0, I guess that could work. I'm no big supporter of one-time investments, though, so still a bit sceptical about that. Imho effort should be the most important factor, not time. Many perfectly researched T1 BPOs have such a high ME/PE simply because the owner was bored or didn't have anything else to do with the BPO or the labs. i was thinking in the range of you need to get a perfect researched bpo for a ME0/PE0 t2. e.g. for an 200mm rails bpo that would mean ME 820.;) so with the average researched bpo you end up with something like me-2 maybe. still an improvement. if you want to get lets say ME4 for the t2 bpc you would need to research it to ME1640. thats 228 days ME research! it gets even worse with bigger modules and ships. Researching T1 BPOs beyond a feasible "optimum" quote just to get a positive ME/PE for T2 BPC really doesn't make any sense and would further block up the already sparse ME-Slots without improving the original BPO. "Optimal" ME/PE for the T1-BPO should result in a ME/PE 0 T2-BPC. Or just ad another skill that allows us dedicated researchers to carry a certain percentage over from the T1-BPO. There, i said. We all know what this evetually will ammount to. Another skill, another timesink - but one i would support nonetheless. Prerequesites could be item/group specific and something like [all][racespecific] Encryption Methodes V + needed research skills for invention V and that would somehow determine what percentage of the ME/PE of the T1-BPO get's carried over. Whatever, something like that. I'm no getting paid for it, let the devs figure it out...
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.11.14 00:38:00 - [48] Originally by: venturestar01 Originally by: darius mclever there is only one T2 bpo problem. but thats in the head of the people who are jealous that they dont have one. I would not call every person who is questioning T2 BPO's jealous. The issue is really simple, does someone who won (not bought) a T2 BPO have an advantage over the rest of the playerbase? you could say the same about anything else that is rare in eve. officer mods, faction ships and stuff. 1. do they have an advantage? yes for sure. 2. do i care. not so much. if i wanted the same advantage, i would buy one. but for the moment it is easier for me to make money with inventions than sinking money into the bpo.
HongHi Choi AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.14 09:23:00 - [49] Originally by: darius mclever you could say the same about anything else that is rare in eve. officer mods, faction ships and stuff. No you can't. They must be grinded for, therefore acquiring them requires an effort. Not only that, but guess what - it's chance based, so you can get a superb item, or a rather crappy one not worth the hours you (and the gang) put into getting it. See some parallel with invention? Now I didn't know about POS invetion. Still, even if you need only a few hours to complete the invention in a POS, you still need to be online every time it does, get another set up, so on and so forth. It requires work. Lottery does not.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.14 10:00:00 - [50] Originally by: HongHi Choi Originally by: Typhado3 this seems incredible chance based. It's quite possible someone who just takes a quick stab at invention may get extremely lucky and win a bpo. Yet someone who does invention non-stop all day for 3 years gets none. a bit too much random luck in this sorta system. Worry not. We, the physicists, deal a lot with probability, and chances like this are usually interpreted as no chance at all. 1) if you don't know the number of events that can generate the result but only the % of the event happening you can't comment if it is not chance at al or not. What are the chances to getting a royal flush at poker? Really low. How many are dealt every day in the world? Several as the number of players is high. 2) Add a small random chance of getting a T2 BPO and as soon as someone is know to have got one the cryes of cheating will start. No thank. If you are so keen on getting a T2 BPO through research I have alredy suggested the only workable system as far as I can see (old post): 1) get the T1 BPo 2) move it to a appropriate R&D agent with all the research skills needed for research and production from the T2 BPO 3) start a research job with him 4) he will request a mission at least once a week to avoid unsuscribed accounts research. If the mission is not done within a week the research pause until a new mission is done (you need to speak with the agent to get it); 5) the mission require something more than simple tritanium. A possibility would be some T2 component related to the final BPO, hacking some specific site and getting back the material, adding more apFpropriate datacores or a BPC of the T2 item you are researching, maybe even getting some sleeper salvage. Extra mission could speed up research; 6) the agent will use one of you R&D agents slots and will not generate datacores, they will be used doing the research; 7) after a long time (dependant on player skills in all relevant fields, agent skill and kind of BPO) you get a T2 BPo (no random chance, if you accrue the needed research you get the BPO). That way you work like a real researcher, substantially you pay the T2 BPO through the "used" datacores and the missions you do and you really have to choose between an immediate gain doing invention (in reality creating bootleg copies of already invented items) or a long term gain doing research. To be full functional without damaging inventors (in the current meaning of the term in game) it would require CCP to add some new T2 stuff every few months, so that there is always some new T2 item that has no BPO. To be clear, minimum research time with maximum skills an with a easy BPO should be at least 3 months.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.14 10:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Equinocs Researching T1 BPOs beyond a feasible "optimum" quote just to get a positive ME/PE for T2 BPC really doesn't make any sense and would further block up the already sparse ME-Slots without improving the original BPO. "Optimal" ME/PE for the T1-BPO should result in a ME/PE 0 T2-BPC. Or just ad another skill that allows us dedicated researchers to carry a certain percentage over from the T1-BPO. There, i said. We all know what this evetually will ammount to. Another skill, another timesink - but one i would support nonetheless. Prerequesites could be item/group specific and something like [all][racespecific] Encryption Methodes V + needed research skills for invention V and that would somehow determine what percentage of the ME/PE of the T1-BPO get's carried over. Whatever, something like that. I'm no getting paid for it, let the devs figure it out... I have always supported the "carry over a % of the ME/PE research to the final BPC" proposal. Adding a skill to do that make it even better in my eyes as it give an advantage to the dedicate inventor against the "dabbler" that has trained 3 skills and always invent the same item.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.14 11:02:00 - [52] Originally by: HongHi Choi It requires work. Lottery does not. Try to speak about what you know. You see the current research system and say "the lottery was simple". It was not so simple and it required a lot of grind. 1) it started in 2005 when having 3 million SP was being a good skilled character (no remapping, level 4 implants at 100+ millions each, level 5 implants 500+ millions, less isk than today). Using 1-2 millions of those SP for the research skills was crippling for most characters: 2) no sharing of standing gains, so non fast standing increase. The research character was the one that had to ask for missions, no character with access to lever 4 agents to boost him. 3) the research missions where more serious. No "give me tritanium". You had to give a large range of materials from R.A.M. to enriched uranium, from electronics to science graduate students and the "move this stuff" missions had up to 10K m3. All doable, but it wasn't a pile tritanium and click "accept mission" and "complete mission" for the next year. At that time it was a level of grind fully comparable to the level of grind you do today to invent.
Merle Hausen Caldari Phoenix Propulsion Labs	Posted - 2009.11.14 23:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: HongHi Choi Originally by: Typhado3 this seems incredible chance based. It's quite possible someone who just takes a quick stab at invention may get extremely lucky and win a bpo. Yet someone who does invention non-stop all day for 3 years gets none. a bit too much random luck in this sorta system. Worry not. We, the physicists, deal a lot with probability, and chances like this are usually interpreted as no chance at all. 1) if you don't know the number of events that can generate the result but only the % of the event happening you can't comment if it is not chance at al or not. What are the chances to getting a royal flush at poker? Really low. How many are dealt every day in the world? Several as the number of players is high. 2) Add a small random chance of getting a T2 BPO and as soon as someone is know to have got one the cryes of cheating will start. No thank. If you are so keen on getting a T2 BPO through research I have alredy suggested the only workable system as far as I can see (old post): 1) get the T1 BPo 2) move it to a appropriate R&D agent with all the research skills needed for research and production from the T2 BPO 3) start a research job with him 4) he will request a mission at least once a week to avoid unsuscribed accounts research. If the mission is not done within a week the research pause until a new mission is done (you need to speak with the agent to get it); 5) the mission require something more than simple tritanium. A possibility would be some T2 component related to the final BPO, hacking some specific site and getting back the material, adding more apFpropriate datacores or a BPC of the T2 item you are researching, maybe even getting some sleeper salvage. Extra mission could speed up research; 6) the agent will use one of you R&D agents slots and will not generate datacores, they will be used doing the research; 7) after a long time (dependant on player skills in all relevant fields, agent skill and kind of BPO) you get a T2 BPo (no random chance, if you accrue the needed research you get the BPO). That way you work like a real researcher, substantially you pay the T2 BPO through the "used" datacores and the missions you do and you really have to choose between an immediate gain doing invention (in reality creating bootleg copies of already invented items) or a long term gain doing research. To be full functional without damaging inventors (in the current meaning of the term in game) it would require CCP to add some new T2 stuff every few months, so that there is always some new T2 item that has no BPO. To be clear, minimum research time with maximum skills an with a easy BPO should be at least 3 months. Honestly, this. There needs to be a way to get T2 BPO's and this is a method that REQUIRES you to work for it. It should take a player time, effort, and even an investment on their part. I would prefer if this system somehow tied into the invention system in some way. For example, one mission has you invent BPC's of the T2 item your are researching and produce those modules. T2 BPO's should not be impossible for someone to get other than by forking over an absurd amount of ISK. On a side note, how much sense does it make when all an inventor does is invent hulks, week after week, for years now, and yet they are no better at doing that same task? It makes no sense, eventually, that inventor should get that BPO due to his YEARS of invention on that item. Should people get this at random and for no effort. No, but it should be obtainable somehow.
Athar Mu Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.11.15 00:43:00 - [54] Originally by: Merle Hausen On a side note, how much sense does it make when all an inventor does is invent hulks, week after week, for years now, and yet they are no better at doing that same task? It makes no sense, eventually, that inventor should get that BPO due to his YEARS of invention on that item. So how many BPO's should this character get? 1, 2, 3, 4....? How many months/years would you have to wait till you got one? If I invented lots of types of ships/modules/ammo (which I do) wouldn't that mean I would eventually get lots of BPO's or would I only get one BPO randomly? T2 BPO's are a collector items, unless you had one from the start and didn't buy it then you probably haven't made any isk off it yet. They are relics. Oh by the way why then is there no profit in inventing ships like Golems? If of course (what everyone in this thread who wants to either get more or rid of T2 BPO's is saying) that T2 BPO owners are the ones that make invention unprofitable!
HongHi Choi AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.11.15 12:47:00 - [55] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: HongHi Choi It requires work. Lottery does not. Try to speak about what you know. You see the current research system and say "the lottery was simple". It was not so simple and it required a lot of grind. 1) it started in 2005 when having 3 million SP was being a good skilled character (no remapping, level 4 implants at 100+ millions each, level 5 implants 500+ millions, less isk than today). Using 1-2 millions of those SP for the research skills was crippling for most characters: 2) no sharing of standing gains, so non fast standing increase. The research character was the one that had to ask for missions, no character with access to lever 4 agents to boost him. 3) the research missions where more serious. No "give me tritanium". You had to give a large range of materials from R.A.M. to enriched uranium, from electronics to science graduate students and the "move this stuff" missions had up to 10K m3. All doable, but it wasn't a pile tritanium and click "accept mission" and "complete mission" for the next year. At that time it was a level of grind fully comparable to the level of grind you do today to invent. I was playing back then, and i did have to grind standings with a research agent, caldari spaceship eng at lvl4, so don't get me started. None of what you speak of were really the requirements. You had to have lvl5 science (no big deal), and lvl4 skill in research as you do now. After you get standings to reach the agent (and you would be grinding missions anyway - I have standings 8.0 with lai dai for two years now at least), you just needed to start the job, and sit on your a**. And don't tell me you can't, cuz that's what i did.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.11.15 13:16:00 - [56] The game does not need more T2 bpo's. I do have a solution however but it would take a little effort from CCP. What inventors need is an edge over BPO owners, production cost, material effeciency and runs is not the way to go. What if all T2 modules and ships has sub varients. E.g. Crow MKI, MKII... Each version has one slightly increased stat, such as 10% more shield, or been 5% faster. Have these varents been only produced from invention. At a low chance, perhaps 1/10 invention jobs.
Komi Toran	Posted - 2009.11.15 14:00:00 - [57] So, let's assume that you're right, and T2 BPOs are very bad and making invention unprofitable. So, your solution is to add more T2 BPOs, which, by your argument, will make invention even less profitable until the point where there's no reason to invent, save for buying a ticket to a BPO lottery. Yeah, that's a great solution!
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.11.15 16:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Elldranga You need a problem before you need a solution. Why don't you look up a bit of info regarding how much of the market is produced by T2 BPO's before claiming that the T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO's? Just saying.... Ballisic Control System II Blueprint ME 20 PE 0 Cost to Manufacture using market sell prices for minerals/components Roughly 200k isk at most. Price the module can be sold for Roughly 780k isk minimum. Time to manufacture one with Industry 5 using a 1.0x manufacturing time multiplier 66 minutes Amount of units that can be produced in 30 days 654 Estimated profit per unit ~500k minimum Estimated profit potential per month 327,000,000 Sure, the blueprint may cost one 42bil isk to purchase and take one 128 months (or ten years) to pay off, but if you were the one that originally got the blueprint via the Lottery, had it handed down to you for free, stole it or got it via isk you obtained by stealing from corps or other 'quick and easy, but unsustainable' means, this simple little T2 bpo is an isk printing machine on its own that 'cannot be removed'. The fact that it is essentially impossible to remove a T2 blueprint from the game these days short of accidentally/intentionally trashing it means that there is literally no in-road for people to use to try and get a passive isk-printing-factory up and running. Because of this fact, there are also the people in the shadows taking advantage of the still-high cost of putting invented ships and modules on the market, that are able to make their 100%+ profit per ship or module they produce using their BPOs, because they don't have to 'compete' with other owners of the same blueprint; because there aren't any. ---
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.11.15 17:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Merle Hausen Originally by: Venkul Mul Good stuff. Honestly, this. There needs to be a way to get T2 BPO's and this is a method that REQUIRES you to work for it. It should take a player time, effort, and even an investment on their part. I would prefer if this system somehow tied into the invention system in some way. Agreed, but I think BPCs with good ME/PE level (could depend on agent level and quality) and multiple runs might be better and will keep it running in a more controlled way than adding more 'infinite' BPOs you could never ever get rid of again. If the T2 lottery would have been about multi run BPC instead of BPOs from the start, it would still be fine now. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"


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