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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
462
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Posted - 2012.06.14 17:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
SaorAlba wrote:To be honest. Any Amarr plexing now is a fool. Every system you take back yields the tards
another 20 bil. If you must plex then plex there key systems wich they wanne keep and will
deplex or your doing it wrong.
This is where you are making a big mistake.
There are no "key" systems. You guys keep talking that way, because you might like to imagine there is, but there isn't.
Amarr can easilly turn this around. But we keep fighting in a way that is easilly contained by the minmatar in imaginary "key piplines." This means the few minmatar players willing to do the defensive work for no pay 1) have a limitted amount of ground to cover and 2) they will have protection of their blobs during certain time periods to do it. You guys flipping systems right next to their base are the ones feeding them lp.
That is not to say that we do not have good reason to only plex in the busy systems. We do that mainly for the pvp.
But if we really wanted to win this war we would get in our pve ships and start taking back water systems to vulnerable or close to vulnerable but not flipping them. Then once a large number are close like that we would do a push to flip the lot of them.
Ammarr will have large amounts of lp that were saved up whereas the minmatar will have spent their lp. The economics will then swing to the amarr.
Its pretty straight forward strategy that is why I don't mind posting it here.
The problem is no one wants to do that much pve.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
462
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 20:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:
When someone with new ideas, with a new way to wage war, with an iron will that he can impose on Amarr militia, with a vision of how to move forward, who can inspire men to fight, then, Amarr can make a fight of it. With guys like you, with your attitude, yes, you are beaten.
I get the point that you are screwed and dont really have the means to wage an effective war at the moment.
Its not that we can't wage a war I think we can. Its just that *how* you win this war is pretty mind numbing. You get a bunch of alts in pve ships to orbit a button in a back water systems. You bring pretty much all the systems to vulnerable or close to vulnerable. Dont flip them! And for god sakes don't flip them right next to where the minnie blobs roam anyway.
Only after you have about 3/4s of the systems close to vulnerable throughout the war zone, then you start a push to actually flip them all - likely with outside support. You can likely easilly pay the support with all that soon to be valuable lp.
If the minmatar keep trying to defend these plexes they will get no lp for their time they will get more tired of this than we will. We will get lp that will be worth a fortune once we flip the systems. That is how the system is supposed to work.
Will this actually work if we tried it?
I doubt it. The system is pretty unbalanced in favor of the winning side. So its possible that all those minmatar who are currently just farming plexes in caldari space will come back to protect their prized egg. However, I will say that the current strategy of thinking some "frontline" systems are somehow "key" is never going to work for amarr. They aren't key and the resources used to hold on to them would be much better spent elsewhere - from an occupancy war perspective. However an occupancy war perspective, is distinct from a pvpers perspective.
Which brings us to the main reason this probably won't work. It is because lots of amarr are getting allot of pvp right next to minmatar bases and they really don't care about who wins this war enough to go base out of Amo and run plexes without fights for months on end. So they will stay in those areas and continue to do what they are doing now.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
462
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 14:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shylari Avada wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:
no we still cant.
removing ewar isnt enough you dunder head.
even in our own highsec with our rats having 90% web on wartarget minmatar dramiel they can still orbit and our npcs wont lay a shot on em.
I would like to introduce you to the Huginn and Rapier... they do hilarious things to people speed tanking majors. (Extra Credit if you team up with a Arazu/Lachesis) Try it out sometime.
Do you see what you are saying though? We need 2 recons to counter a frigate in our major plex. On the other hand the minmatar do not need anyone to counter a frigate in their major plex - the npcs do it automatically. Its unbalanced and it will remain unbalanced even after the ewar is removed.
I agree with what you say. There are those who are doing faction war who only care about the pvp. I think you are saying you are in that camp. It's great and I think allot of people who like pvp should definitely give faction war a try. IMO fw has been the best means to frequent quality small scale pvp in eve for a long time. (RvB is at least an honorable mention)
But understand that just about everyone in faction war, before these changes, were in the same camp you are now. There used to be nothing other than the pvp in faction war, other than the mission farmers but they were their own subgroup. Think about that. Occupancy meant nothing. So all those bitter fw vets that you tend to deride are actually allot like you in many many ways.
But after a while I and others started to see that ccp could really ramp up faction war and make it truly kick ass on a whole other level. Not just make it like rvb with meaningless pvp, but give some context and thereby actually increase the amount and quality of the pvp. Just a few tweaks and they could really have this take off. For years we have been pushing them to do this.
These people have done fw just for the pvp for years and now care about the occupancy war too. And the reason we care is because we know the system has allot of potential to be much better at providing the frequent quality pvp we do faction war for.
We aren't satisfied that this is just better than null sec or piracy. If the best and most frequent pvp eve offered was null sec or piracy we would have unsubbed long ago. Just because the frequent small scale pvp in faction war is the best in eve isn't really saying much. Its the only mechanic that ccp even seemed to somewhat try to promote frequent quality pvp.
But even there, many of the mechanics clearly cut against that idea. And that is because the goal of making fw a stepping stone to sov null sec is counter to making faction war a mechanic that promotes frequent quality small scale pvp. Until ccp decides on clear non contradictory goals they will never have a truly great system.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
462
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Posted - 2012.06.15 15:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:Cearain wrote:Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:
When someone with new ideas, with a new way to wage war, with an iron will that he can impose on Amarr militia, with a vision of how to move forward, who can inspire men to fight, then, Amarr can make a fight of it. With guys like you, with your attitude, yes, you are beaten.
I get the point that you are screwed and dont really have the means to wage an effective war at the moment.
Its not that we can't wage a war I think we can. Its just that *how* you win this war is pretty mind numbing. You get a bunch of alts in pve ships to orbit a button in a back water systems. You bring pretty much all the systems to vulnerable or close to vulnerable. Dont flip them! And for god sakes don't flip them right next to where the minnie blobs roam anyway. ...... Which brings us to the main reason this probably won't work. It is because lots of amarr are getting allot of pvp right next to minmatar bases and they really don't care about who wins this war enough to go base out of Amo and run plexes without fights for months on end. So they will stay in those areas and continue to do what they are doing now. Well, like I said, it is about the will to fight.Apparently you are saying that Amarr are content to simply shoot at Minmatar, and nothing more.Gallente honestly have a similar attitude. look at stats, we are earning VP at twice their rate. I also notice that Amarr are NOT that far behind minmatar as far as VP earned a day.They dont have way more guys plexing..
I agree but we are doing the plexing in a way that makes it entertaining for them to do the defensive plexing. That is we are doing the offensive plexing in systems where their pvp blobs will roam anyway. So they can get some fights and not just solely sit on a button for no reward.
Why are we doing that? Because we don't want to sit on a button with no pvp even if we get a reward. Its not what we signed up for, and its a boring game mechanic. I mean I can "win" the guiness book of world records for sitting in a chair the longest time if I have the "will" to win it. FW right now has more to do with who has more time to waste doing pve rather than who is better at pvp or better at "figuring out" strategies. Like I said the strategy I outlined isn't so hard to figure out. Its just that the execution is so boring no one wants to spend real life free time doing that.
Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:
What will happen, i think eventually, if you dont start hitting and degrading their systems, is they will be rich enough long enough that the PvP that Amarer is satisfied with now will become unsatisfying as Minmatar switches to exclusively Faction ships, and then those fights that you do get become more lopsided than they are now and then you really will have lost,
Right now Minmatars perceived victory is a matter of morale.In a couple of months it will be an economic dominance so strong that resistance will be futile....
Oh they already had loads of lp that they cashed in. They fly more sfis than we can afford thrashers. This is already a done deal. Those who were lucky enough to be in minmatar faction war before ccp changed the rules already received a huge payday.
And yes I mean lucky for the vast majority of them. They can thank sasawong who has more vp as in individual than any minmatar corporation. So yes sasawong and probably a few others in IO earned whatever they were able to cash in. But the majority who wouldn't plex before this patch just got a huge windfall thanks to ccp changing the rules.
Now to hear them talk about how they are winning because of some sort of pvp prowess is pretty sickening.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
463
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Posted - 2012.06.15 16:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:
Well, i agree with you on most points. I also actually agree with the OP to a point. but the lack of will in my mind takes precedence over anything else.
if CCP were to change mechanics, I would think that forcing all the rats to be killed before plex closes would do enough.You want webbing rats as well, will that solve the issue? Ok, if you like, but I still think a minor should be able to be completed solo.
Well there would be allot more "will" to fight this occupancy war if it involved allot of quality pvp. You can blame the players for not having the "will" to do allot of pve all you want. I guess I don't really see my lack of interest in shooting red crosses for hours on end as any sort of flaw in my character.
If ccp wants players in faction war to have a "will" to win then they need to make faction war something that is viewed as something as meritorious to win. IMO if they made winning faction war based on being good at small scale pvp they would accomplish that. But as long as winning is based on who can sit there shooting red crosses, fw will always be lolfw.
I have posted my views on what should be done with the rats many places. I won't go into it allot here. But in sum the rats shouldn't play much of a role if any at all. The war should be won by the players not the npcs.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
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Posted - 2012.06.19 16:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:
... The simple fact is in EVE even in null sec the bigger the blobs equals "less" fighting and more ganking happens.
....
This
It's actually its a simple matter of statistical mathematics, that this will be the case. Once your fleet is larger than say the equivalent of about a single BC, then affter that point the larger your fleet is, the chances that both you and the enemy you run into feel is a good fight becomes less and less. Hence you will get more docking, more smack and less fighting.
That is why I think ccp should focus on getting us many smaller scale fights. Not exclusively. I mean the bunker busts will still attract the larger forces. But in general smaller scale pvp means more frequent and closer fights.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
472
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Posted - 2012.06.20 15:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...You completely misunderstood me - I wasn't saying that the Amarr are being lazy and aren't trying hard, I'm absolutely sure that you are and I hope you continue to do so... And I say don't continue. As long as the Shakorites get to ride motorcycles in the Tour de France called FW their lives should be made as hard as you can within the narrow confines afforded by CCP reluctance to do any actual work on FW. - Plex relentlessly, preferably in upgraded system. - Never flip a system, not a one, they get diddly squat from defence .. every flipped system is more ISK for Pator. - Aggressively pursue/kill/harass any Shakorites plexing held systems. Should be easy enough considering the number of systems involved .. they should not be allowed the easy LP from offensive plexing. - Go on SiSi and cook up the bare minimum ship/fit with which to plex everything (minor/medium/major) when NPC eWar is axed and spam that ship/fit on TQ. Once winter (or more likely next summer) rolls around with the "real" changes, you know the actual balance changes, each and every Amarr member will have millions of LP (triple digits!) ready to cash out when the Iron Heel of the Empire curb-stomps the Shakorites after their motorcycles are removed .. Head to head, pound for pound Amarr > Matar, proven time and again over the years, take away their ridiculous plexing advantage (or give similar to Amarr whichever CCP thinks will ruin game the most) and they'll be locked away deep in bowels of their hinterland. In short: Plex and plex only. Once their only major LP income is reduced to the silly solo bombers, they will lose plexing steam as bodies drop once again .. should be timed almost perfectly with plexing conditions being equalized come winter/summer at which time they will be overrun.
This is the way we can win based on the actual mechanics of the game. Unfortunately many in amarr militia aren't looking at the actual mechanics of the game. Instead they are looking at old textbooks about world war 1 and deluding themselves into thinking that those strategies will work in this game.
I think hans has a point in that the system shouldn't be scrapped just because one side is fighting in a stupid manner. The no lp for defensive plexing gives amarr the ability to get back in the game. But we are ignoring it and instead giving minmatar plexers huge economic benefits by flipping systems right next to their bases.
BTW I am not saying that engaging in a smart strategy along the lines you outline will be enough. The system is still pretty lopsided and it may be that even with best tactics it will just be too lopsided.
But I do agree with hans that until we amarrians actually start fighting smart (based on the actual mechanics in the game not some imagined world war 1 strategy that simply doesn't apply) ccp shouldn't just start changing things willy nilly. We need to adjust our strategies to the mechanics ccp gives. We shouldn't be telling CCP "hey we want to win with this strategy make it so we can."
No doubt I am making myself unpopular with my militia by saying this.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
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Posted - 2012.06.20 21:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
chatgris wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Super Chair wrote:Obligatory CERBY is recruiting post. Come fight for the state. We accept all amarrian refugees willing to fly cormorants and drakes  LOL are you offering them better WZ control levels? They're looking to make some iskies (and I don't blame them). Almost everyone I know has at lease 1 minnie alt farming your side. Surely you've heard some of the Amarrian tinfoil, W-BR is "letting" Minnies get to teir 5 so they can all fly titans and supers and swin in sexy sexy isk.
I wish I was lying, cause it would be such an awesome troll had we not been wardecced for it already.
That's a pretty good point: The difference in reward levels doesn't increase conflict, if anything it seems to decrease conflict as anyone (alts of enemies included) can just join the winning side and join in the cashing out. Giving rewards definitely helps conflict, because it gives people a reason to be in plexes. And you can earn ISK in plexes in a pvp ship instead of pveing your way through missions. Consequences to your main account not being able to dock is also a driver for conflict. But the more I've see of this tiered reward crap (and hey, I'm in the Minmatar Militia, I am raking in the LP on my main), the more I think it's a very bad idea. CCP should go back to the same reward level for all militias, or at the very least, not have a negative penalty so the losing side can still compete with high sec mission runners.
Well this is true to an extent. But I know I have allot of amarr lp built up that I would love to cash out at tier 5. Hence I am hoping my militia gets it in gear and starts moving toward that goal. The tier system is very much a driver from my perspective.
As far as docking being a motivator I moved out of the war zone and will never move back in in anything close to the way I used to be entrenched there. That is unless they remove the lock out rule. If ccp removes the lock out rule I will start putting plexing ships back in fw space. So really the lock out rule is not a motivator for me at all. It drove me off and I am pretty much out for good.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 13:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote:
Well this is true to an extent. But I know I have allot of amarr lp built up that I would love to cash out at tier 5. Hence I am hoping my militia gets it in gear and starts moving toward that goal. The tier system is very much a driver from my perspective.
That makes sense. And as we've discovered, you only need the high tier level for a brief window to capitalize on achieving that goal, as long as you're prepared beforehand. You don't have to be able to *maintain* a tier level to make achieving it profitable and worth putting effort towards. And when you do hit it (and I'm sure you will eventually) your items will be higher priced on the markets as well, making that cashout more lucrative than anything the minnies have been able to pull in terms is isk / LP. Define a shortwhile? A few hours. A day? I can go to bed and see pretty much all upgrades that were put in place gone when I log back in the next day. With the number of systems you hold vs us, it means we fill up our ihubs and you guys empty it out and bump us back down in no time. We do it to a few of your systems and worst case, you drop from T4 to T3. And last night, it seems the minnies "fixed" that by further upgrading some systems to push up into the middle of T4 instead of sitting on the edge of T4/T3
Har
Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.
We need to make sure we understand the mechanics in this game - and why our current strategy is making our enemy some of the wealthiest people in all of eve - then we need to adjust our plans accordingly.
Again I am not saying we will be able to make a comeback, but we need to at least demonstrate that we are trying strategies that apply to this game instead of what we think sounds cool. Or how we would imagine/like it to be.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 15:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare. Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?
Amarr has alway had the more difficult missions than minmatar. Yes I do know people who explicitly say they left amarr to run missions easier in other factions and likely many others who won't admit it have over the years. Why choose to fight for a faction where its harder to make isk? It should not be surprising then that the amarr have as far as I know, always had the fewest number of pilots.
They have also had some of the worst rats to deal with as far as plexing. So that has directly effected our ability to plex as effectively as minmatar.
Then there is the lore that paints us as religious fanatics, and the fact that amarr are ugly.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote:
Har
Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.
That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity. Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to. I haven't converted any LP yet for this very reason. My point being that it is NOT practical for me to do so at the current time whilst the minmitar can pretty much do it on a whim!!!
It appears someone from goons upgraded amarr to tier 2. Why did they bother blowing stuff up for amarr lp at all - let alone enough to upgrade our tier?
-edit I was originally afraid people in our own militia were stupid enough to do that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:Now that they are done I expect the minmatar will fold like an Albanian suit, assuming the Amarr can at long last, now find their goolies. As you type this, Minnies are back up to T4 and have been for a few hours now.
It doesn't take much lp to get to tier five. I would think the goons probably did more to devalue the minmatar store than help them.
It does take a bit of organization to get to level 5 but most of the work is in getting the systems. Get 30 people to drop 200k lp and even if none of the systems had any upgrades they will all be upgraded enough so that your other lp can be cashed in at tier 5. Really minmatar likely only need a few more systems and about 15 people to donate 200k to go from tier 4 to hit tier 5.
After that their lp can be cashed out at half price from level 4.
Assuming ccp does some corrective action so the lp store doesn't crash the goons really didn't do much to effect faction war.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
476
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Posted - 2012.06.25 18:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Ex-Amarr are seriously the biggest group of crybabies. Why are you posting on a forum that no longer concerns you? Go post on the RP forums baddies.
I couldn't resist. Did you have to post so soon? I mean this is just on the page right before your post.
Come on back Jones, there are more minmatar to kill.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
477
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Cearain wrote:Jones Bones wrote:Ex-Amarr are seriously the biggest group of crybabies. Why are you posting on a forum that no longer concerns you? Go post on the RP forums baddies. I couldn't resist. Did you have to post so soon? I mean this is just on the page right before your post. Come on back Jones, there are more minmatar to kill. LOL you think not being in Amarr FW is going to stop me from killing Minnies? I'm freed from the shackles of Amarr ineptitude brother. Free at last, free at last.
LOL I won't even ask what particular ineptitude you are refering to. I am staying in the militia because the little orange dots help me remember who to shoot.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
477
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Posted - 2012.06.25 19:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Super Chair wrote:Jones Bones wrote:If Amarr were smart they'd all join Caldari and just reap the rewards of them slowly grinding Gal down. Better yet, they could join caldari, move to caldari space, and grind the gallente down with us Caldari Militia still recruiting more amarr QFT need more people to bust down 14 available bunkers
I was hoping you weren't busting those bunkers due to strategy as opposed to an inability to get enough people to bust them down.
I am doing my bit on the amarr front.
I am hoping we will give caldari a breather by forcing some of those minmatar alts back over to the amarr front in order to protect their prized egg.
Hopefully soon it will be the gallente that has to deal with hordes of amarr alts doing caldari plexes for our lp.
We do have allied interests.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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