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Audits 001 - come and get it

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Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.13 08:28:00 - [1] Number of small bond proposals reaching MD has grown, but activity of auditors has declined. We need a new batch of MD auditors, and this project should hopefully be the solution. Before you read any further, be sure that you are familiar with the principles of auditing, and api keys, as laid out in KazuoÆs resource thread: Audits 101 This initiative is intended as a service to people that launch a minor bond here on Market Discussion forum. Currently we are lacking experinced auditors on MD. We have VV and Kazuo in activity, Sharl and Brock Nelson not so much. For those that are launching large industrial bonds, they should certainly request full audit service from either VV or Kazuo. However, the typical smallish trade bonds could be accompagnied by a limited auditing scheme. Just getting confirmation of some basic facts is valuable info for a potential investor, namely: * Trade skills * NAV (as precisely as relevant) * Trade activities For someone launching a small trade bond, this kind of info could easily be confirmed by giving your api key to an auditor. So to get down to business: Are you qualified to check a colleague launching a bond with a limited audit, then volunteer right here, right now! This is the way we can commence hatching a new generation of uber-auditers. A limited audit as outlined should be possible to do in half an hour, you can surely spend that time at least once per month as a community service. To the hopeful entrepeneur: contact 2 of these volunteers, give them your api ket to check some basic facts - it will only do you good. The auditor is not in a position to harm you, and will only publish the information that you ask for. The price for the audit will be 0.01 isk. I will keep the list updated.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.13 08:29:00 - [2] 0.01 auditing volunteers û each person on the list has agreed to do at least one limited audit per month for free: Ji Sama Dretzle Omega (Setrakdark û awaiting confirmation) (Mikael Genexi û awaiting confirmation) (Aluin Chaput û awaiting confirmation)
Charles Swann	Posted - 2009.11.13 08:57:00 - [3] Edited by: Charles Swann on 13/11/2009 09:00:23 If anyone would like to learn more about audits (how to do an audit, limitations of audits, how to trick auditors, etc.) feel free to toss me an evemail in-game (if there's sufficient interest, I might compile some sort of guide). Originally by: Cista2 To the hopeful entrepeneur: contact 2 of these volunteers, give them your api ket to check some basic facts - it will only do you good. The auditor is not in a position to harm you, and will only publish the information that you ask for. The price for the audit will be 0.01 isk. The auditor is of course in a position to harm you as he knows about your business & character details, claiming otherwise is plain misinformation. Don't forget that using this scheme you will have to trust both auditors with more-or-less all your ingame information. Does the underlined part mean that auditors will only confirm/deny exactly the information the customer asks for? If I would ask you to verify my trade skills and would have a known corp thief on my account, would you withhold that information as I didn't ask you to verify may characters' general integrity? edit: Cista2, you can of course add me to this list; if anyone wants to get audited by me (and thinks his investors will like this), I will happily do so.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.13 09:03:00 - [4] Originally by: Charles Swann The auditor is of course in a position to harm you as he knows about your business & character details, claiming otherwise is plain misinformation. ..... Does the underlined part mean that auditors will only confirm/deny exactly the information the customer asks for? If I would ask you to verify my trade skills and would have a known corp thief on my account, would you withhold that information as I didn't ask you to verify may characters' general integrity? [/list] Yes, edited a bit in both points.
Roguehalo	Posted - 2009.11.13 10:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Charles Swann (if there's sufficient interest, I might compile some sort of guide) I would be very interested to see such a guide. In fact if I had a nice guide to work from I would be happy to volunteer to give a free audit each month for a starter bond/ipo.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.13 10:14:00 - [6] I¦d be happy to volunteer my services. And yes, I am qualified. I¦ve done a few internal corp audits, and my background is financial management & consulting.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2009.11.13 10:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Roguehalo Originally by: Charles Swann (if there's sufficient interest, I might compile some sort of guide) I would be very interested to see such a guide. In fact if I had a nice guide to work from I would be happy to volunteer to give a free audit each month for a starter bond/ipo. The short version: agree with the CEO on the details that need to be confirmed, then use whatever tools you have at your disposal to do so. If you have any concerns or doubts, talk about them in private and try to reach some sort of understanding before making a public post. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
Leana Darkrider Minmatar Creatio -ex- nihilo The Donkey Rollers	Posted - 2009.11.13 11:08:00 - [8] You can add me to the list ______________________________________ If only EVE could cook, if only....
InUrJita CheckinUrPrice	Posted - 2009.11.13 12:33:00 - [9] I'll volunteer as well. Excellent idea!
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.13 13:04:00 - [10] Now, this is what I like to see. As I stated in another thread, most of the "MD Elite" achieved that status by doing more than just borrowing money, but also contributing back to the game/market in some way. Please add me to the list of Pro Bona auditors. I don't see myself doing this full time, but I can do a quick 15 minute fact check if it helps give a new guy somewhere to stand, or validate another's audit. Please note I reserve the right to turn down requests if I don't see myself able to turn them around in a timely manner. RL comes first and all that. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.13 13:09:00 - [11] Sign me up. I'm happy to do one per month.
Leana Darkrider Minmatar Creatio -ex- nihilo The Donkey Rollers	Posted - 2009.11.13 13:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Dzil Please note I reserve the right to turn down requests if I don't see myself able to turn them around in a timely manner. RL comes first and all that. This ^^ pls add that note for me aswell ______________________________________ If only EVE could cook, if only....
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.13 13:30:00 - [13] I would always poke through one, if people wanted. Also, with this caveat. Originally by: Dzil Please note I reserve the right to turn down requests if I don't see myself able to turn them around in a timely manner. RL comes first and all that.
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.13 13:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Charles Swann Does the underlined part mean that auditors will only confirm/deny exactly the information the customer asks for? If I would ask you to verify my trade skills and would have a known corp thief on my account, would you withhold that information as I didn't ask you to verify may characters' general integrity? Five minute post rule wins again. This is an interesting point. My recommendation would be some standardized format, wherein if someone does not request information around, say, character background - you could either list that bullet as "not requested" or "omitted by request". This fulfills your obligation to deliver auditing only on those items requested, while not leaving you holding a smoking gun if things go pear shaped. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.13 13:58:00 - [15] Edited by: Cista2 on 13/11/2009 14:00:02 Originally by: Dzil My recommendation would be some standardized format, wherein if someone does not request information around, say, character background - you could either list that bullet as "not requested" or "omitted by request". This fulfills your obligation to deliver auditing only on those items requested, while not leaving you holding a smoking gun if things go pear shaped. This dilemma has been discussed in depth recently. I am not sure if a standard protokol should be set, let me hear more opinions. Edit: but I'd be surprised if someone with a known scammer character would dare to hand over his api key to us...?
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:03:00 - [16] Perhaps a broad outline of our major trade areas for added comfort? I trade strictly in minerals and faction ships, and although I would try my best, I would feel more comfortable not doing audits of people who trade a larger portion of their pool in these areas. Definitely open to suggestions and refinement.
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:07:00 - [17] Originally by: SetrakDark Perhaps a broad outline of our major trade areas for added comfort? I trade strictly in minerals and faction ships, and although I would try my best, I would feel more comfortable not doing audits of people who trade a larger portion of their pool in these areas. Definitely open to suggestions and refinement. This could again be an area where the bond holder opts to give or hide information. Knowing what markets he trades in ahead of time might excuse poorer performance if, for example, that market takes a huge unexpected dive. On the other hand, more specialized markets can be disrupted by wealthy enough players with a grudge. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:37:00 - [18] Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 13/11/2009 14:37:57 Originally by: Charles Swann If I would ask you to verify my trade skills and would have a known corp thief on my account, would you withhold that information as I didn't ask you to verify may characters' general integrity? This is a good point. Myself, for example, even during a short, limited audit, if I noticed anything glaring, like a known scammer or corp thief, you bet your life I'd report that, even though character integrity was not asked to be verified. I might not look for it, but I might notice it as I check the facts I was asked to verify. So it would be good for investors beforehand to be aware of the personality of the auditor. Perhaps just a chat with them beforehand to see where they stand on issues such as this, or other ethical thoughts. The only reason I trusted VV with my audit is because I observed his forum activity for some time and gained, hopefully, a general sense of VV's morals and personality.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:38:00 - [19] Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: Dzil My recommendation would be some standardized format, wherein if someone does not request information around, say, character background - you could either list that bullet as "not requested" or "omitted by request". This fulfills your obligation to deliver auditing only on those items requested, while not leaving you holding a smoking gun if things go pear shaped. This dilemma has been discussed in depth recently. I am not sure if a standard protokol should be set, let me hear more opinions. I think a standardised format, or at least a bullet point list of areas to cover makes sense. To start, you need written confirmation that all character accounts, past and present, have been declared. Both API keys, limited and full, are required. The limited allows you to load up Eve Mon, the full gives you access to all financial information. Character Review - confirmation that the character(s) have the necessary skills (Eve Mon) Corp History Review - not sure how much depth is possible here with a limited audit Posting History - limited to some forums (such as character sales) if the posting history is extensive. Financial History - using jEveAssets and EveViewer, for example, so long as corp transactions aren¦t there. 1. Limit to last 1000 transactions - ie current full pull. Otherwise the audit would take longer. 2. Review all suspicious transactions, and interview. 3. Derive asset value from jEveAssets. Some consistency here would be useful - ie assets are valued based on low sell Jita, or some such. 4. Summary of cash in hand, sell orders, buy orders and contracts. 5. ??? There¦s probably more. That ought to be enough for a simple trading operation. The final step would be to review your findings with the individual before posting them.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:42:00 - [20] I'm fully behind some basic standardization. I'll also volunteer a few hours towards an effort to do so, whatever that may entail.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Originally by: Charles Swann If I would ask you to verify my trade skills and would have a known corp thief on my account, would you withhold that information as I didn't ask you to verify may characters' general integrity? This is a good point. Myself, for example, even during a short, limited audit, if I noticed anything glaring, like a known scammer or corp thief, you bet your life I'd report that, even though character integrity was not asked to be verified. I might not look for it, but I might notice it as I check the facts I was asked to verify. It is, or should be, a given that character integrity will be verified, to the extent possible on a limited audit. There¦s no negotiation on that, not in my book anyway.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Dretzle Omega Originally by: Charles Swann If I would ask you to verify my trade skills and would have a known corp thief on my account, would you withhold that information as I didn't ask you to verify may characters' general integrity? This is a good point. Myself, for example, even during a short, limited audit, if I noticed anything glaring, like a known scammer or corp thief, you bet your life I'd report that, even though character integrity was not asked to be verified. I might not look for it, but I might notice it as I check the facts I was asked to verify. It is, or should be, a given that character integrity will be verified, to the extent possible on a limited audit. There¦s no negotiation on that, not in my book anyway. Exactly where I stand on the matter. I was just covering my bases that some auditors might think that it is perfectly fine to look at and blind their vision to ONLY the things they were asked to verify. Technically, their being honest and trustworthy, but personally I think you're right.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.13 15:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Exactly where I stand on the matter. I was just covering my bases that some auditors might think that it is perfectly fine to look at and blind their vision to ONLY the things they were asked to verify. Technically, their being honest and trustworthy, but personally I think you're right. MD investors are far more interested in character integrity than character competence. Lack of the former almost always means loss of principal, while lack of the latter hopefully only results in loss of interest. Any auditor who turns a blind eye won¦t last long.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.13 15:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Dretzle Omega Exactly where I stand on the matter. I was just covering my bases that some auditors might think that it is perfectly fine to look at and blind their vision to ONLY the things they were asked to verify. Technically, their being honest and trustworthy, but personally I think you're right. MD investors are far more interested in character integrity than character competence. Lack of the former almost always means loss of principal, while lack of the latter hopefully only results in loss of interest. Any auditor who turns a blind eye won¦t last long. This tbh!
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.13 15:14:00 - [25] I have edited the OP to say that known scammers will be disclosed by the auditor. I am against making a bullet list of checks that must be performed by any auditor. The idea is actually to have these voluntary audits as easy to do as possible. Let the investee - and his potential investors - ask for what they want. If the investee only wants his skills and recent trade history verified, that's what he will get. If you as auditor feel you should do more, talk with the investee about it in each case.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.13 15:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Cista2 I have edited the OP to say that known scammers will be disclosed by the auditor. I am against making a bullet list of checks that must be performed by any auditor. The idea is actually to have these voluntary audits as easy to do as possible. Let the investee - and his potential investors - ask for what they want. If the investee only wants his skills and recent trade history verified, that's what he will get. If you as auditor feel you should do more, talk with the investee about it in each case. It is up to the individual auditor, but i always run a background check, and always check for sucpicious transactions, and if i find something smelly i will grill the client, and if they cant answer me to my satisfaction i will expose them. But if you are legit, you have nothing to fear, since nothing out of the ordinary should be found. But if you have RMT'ed, been associated with scammers, or have scammed yourself, and i find out; i wont be lenient. If you havent done any of the above, you have my loyalty, and i will report only what asked of me.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.13 15:40:00 - [27] Originally by: Cista2 I am against making a bullet list of checks that must be performed by any auditor. The idea is actually to have these voluntary audits as easy to do as possible. Let the investee - and his potential investors - ask for what they want. If the investee only wants his skills and recent trade history verified, that's what he will get. If you as auditor feel you should do more, talk with the investee about it in each case. Then call them "recommended" checks. Limited or not, the audits must be credible. Any new auditor who posts an "easy" audit will be laughed out of court by investors. And any auditor who makes absolutely no effort to verify character integrity will be ignored. Audits are carried out to directly assist potential investors in decision-making, and indirectly to assist the investee in obtaining funding. It¦s not up to the investee to say "I don¦t want my alts looked at," for example.
Tylwyth Teg Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.13 15:49:00 - [28] I am new the the MD forum and fairly new to the game. I would be glad to help with the audits and do a free one each month. Being an auditor may help me understand better which investments are good and such as well. However, I know I am a fairly new character from a small corp and have yet to make an impact on the market or even post, but if I can help mitigate the damage scammers cause this will be a good thing for me personally as I can safely start my career as an investor and a trader. Full disclosure statement: This is an industrial and research character, and I invent and build a few tech 2 items. I also dabble in the markets, but my capitalization is very small right now. I am a small fry in a big pond. I am a computer programmer by day and a mathematician by heart. One question to all the auditors out there: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who watches those who watch?) That is to say, can we trust the auditors?
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.13 16:06:00 - [29] Originally by: Tylwyth Teg I am a computer programmer by day and a mathematician by heart. I'm beginning to think that only computer programmers and IT peeps are the ones that play Eve. Heh. Originally by: Tylwyth Teg One question to all the auditors out there: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who watches those who watch?) That is to say, can we trust the auditors? Very good point. I mentioned this to Cista, as well. I believe that's why there is to be two of these auditors on any bond/IPO requested. Should there be a channel for investors/investees to go to look for auditors? Or should I finally just join the scc-lounge after all?
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.13 16:23:00 - [30] Edited by: Cista2 on 13/11/2009 16:25:07 Originally by: Varo Jan Any new auditor who posts an "easy" audit will be laughed out of court by investors. And any auditor who makes absolutely no effort to verify character integrity will be ignored. You are repeating what VV has been saying all along. We do have these two very good auditors active that do immaculate audits. They get 50 mil to 100 mil per audit. But nobody else wants to do audits, because it is too much effort for too small a fee. This initiative is necessary as a way to get more people initiated in the auditing business. The audits that are done voluntary have to be kept very simple. As long as everybody knows that a prori, noone is going to be ridiculed. You are pushing in the direction that every audit should be a full audit, and this is a discussion we have had before here. You are welcome to offer investee's to do a full audit after your own principles, but you cannot demand that from other volunteers. Edit: PS Things like character / corp history, forum posting history, contract history, those elements are public and can be looked into by the investors themselves if they are sceptical. No need to burden a 0.01 auditor with that.

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