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Whats the point of a CNR if it's just a gank magnet?

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Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 07:58:00 - [1] Edited by: Cashus on 14/11/2009 07:59:45 Ok, so I got my shiny new CNR ganked in .5 by the goons. I'm not QQing over it, well not any more at least. It was a harsh reality check and it actually got me thinking long and hard about how I can avoid the same thing happening to me again. The new level of awareness it's given me has actually added some spice to my missioning. I've asked friends in game and have been given a few answers, and have come up with some of my own ideas. I want to throw it out here to A) confirm some of what I've already been told and/or B) See if I'm headed down the right road in my scheming. The primary advice I've been given by most is simply don't fly a CNR. It's a gank magnet. The goons will blow one up whenever possible just because it's fun for them. Ok, I can accept this, but given that the CNR is also not the best PVP ship due to it's high cost, is the answer really to just not fly one? Whats the point of it being in the game then? BTW, I'm NOT talking about a faction fitted CNR here. Just a normal T1/T2 fit. The extra missile slot and shields really make level 4's a lot quicker, so to me, it seemed worth it. Other advice I've read is "watch local and keep your scanner up and refreshed". Thats great, but local chat is certainly no guarantee and the scanner is only useful once I'm undocked. I know I need to be aligned to a safe spot from now on, thats a no brainer, but if the tackler gets the jump on me, I'm toast, no matter how diligent I am. I've thought about parking a cloaked alt at the acc. gate so I can see the tackler coming (yes I have 2 accounts), but what about missions with no gate? My alt is usually my salvager so this would put a big crimp in my income as well. Even if I make 30 mil a mission, I'm still looking at a net loss of somewhere around 20-30 missions of income just to replace one cheaply fitted CNR. If the answer is, don't fly the CNR, then I guess I won't fly it. My actual plan is to move to 0.0 where at least I can count on some friends for protection and give up on missioning all together, which is too bad because I actually enjoyed it for a while. I could go back to a regular raven but it just takes so much longer to finish a mission with it. This isn't just about isk/hour. I had a target time to get my missions down to because of RL concerns. Most nights I barely have the time to finish a lvl 4 in my CNR and Drake combo (splitting the tank and salvaging with the drake as I go). Downgrading to the regular raven would mean losing about 2-3 nights a week of missioning. I could of course make up the difference with skills, which I'm working on, but I only have about 2.7m SP right now so I have a long way to go. Any thoughts? Any advice on how to deal with suicide gankers?
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:07:00 - [2] By NOT having 2.7 mil SP when flying faction BS's, that's a decent first. Apart from that; going assume they ganked you because of the mods you fitted, not because you flew a CNR. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. ADM-I
lilrez GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:17:00 - [3] I'm wondering why they ganked you at all. I don't see any Faction/Deadspace/Officer loot. Welp. As for advice: train some skills jeez you should be in BC's with so little skill. When you can field a full T2 fit then consider stepping into a CNR. Maybe that will make your missions go by faster.
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:32:00 - [4] Well, a slow lvl 4 is worth a ton more then even 3 fast lvl 3's. I fly the Raven in missions quite capably. My only issue really is DPS, but I get your point. And no, I had no faction mods or anything like that. I MIGHT have had some caldari navy cruise missiles but that was it, and not many if I had them. I can't remember. I usually only load them against named BS's with particularly tough to break tanks. And sure, I can tank a lot better in a Drake then I can a BS, but drakes are just really slow on the DPS side for lvl 4 missions. Even if a little under skilled, the BS is the better choice, especially when I'm ALSO bringing a drake. I was chewing through lvl 4's setting the raven up for full dps and using the drake for all the aggro, but then I'd have to come back to salvage and probably lose most of it to ninja's. My counter to that was to upgrade to the CNR so I could fit the drake with salvagers and tractor beams instead of missile bays for the extra dps. Really what I wanted to know, aside from the low SP, because that's something only time can fix, is what are some tactics people use against suicide gankers?
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Marko Riva on 14/11/2009 08:52:10 Quote: I fly the Raven in missions quite capably No you don't, also see Quote: My only issue really is DPS Quote: I MIGHT have had some caldari navy cruise missiles but that was it, and not many if I had them. I can't remember you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? I guess this can be summed up as "new player grinds his way towards level 4's without understanding the game, bought himself some isk and got a faction (fit) BS. Now lost it due to incompetence, inexperience and well... Goons. He grinds to make cash to buy ships to grind faster and doesn't take the whole skilling thing into account". On the premise that you didn't put expensive faction mods on your ship; missions ships mostly have a huge resist hole which is easily made use of by some insured cheaply fitted BS's. Reason; for the lulz and to show you a silly fit faction BS flown by a low SP character doesn't neccesarily work. If you DID make it worthwhile for them due to your mods; **** happens, be more careful next time. Welcome to EVE. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. ADM-I
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:52:00 - [6] Goons do it just for the tears (which, as you have posted here, they are extremely happy about it) and the 'lulz' - fly a Raven if you can't handle the ISK loss. Even if you have a really badly fitted CNR they will want to pop it. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Ladani	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:58:00 - [7] And that's why insurance payouts for suicide ganks should be removed. So that it costs them something too.
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.14 09:31:00 - [8] ITT bored goons play both sides against the middle.
Bashe Zor	Posted - 2009.11.14 09:57:00 - [9] Originally by: Marko Riva you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? faction ammo is hardly something to get that exited over...
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 10:21:00 - [10] Thanks to those that actually offered some advice. The rest of you (I'm talking to you Marko) really need to seek professional help. It's a game, I'm here to learn it and have fun. If I lose some ships in the process, or some isk, so what. It's pixels. The better I get at it, and the more I learn, the more fun I have, so sue me for asking a question. Most of this stuff isn't written down any where so I'm asking. I guess I'll stick to reading other newbs getting torn to shreds by asshats like Marko that think every one should be born in to the game knowing what they do.

Zaphod Frogmouth	Posted - 2009.11.14 10:58:00 - [11] Edited by: Zaphod Frogmouth on 14/11/2009 10:59:47 well - you should probably also avoid 0.5 Systems when running l4's with a poorly skilled and fitted CNR - concord response is faster and more pronounced the higher the Sec Status of a System is. Whilst I get your Point about isk/hour, you seem to be doing rather well in that regard Even with your limited playing time anyway - I at least couldn't have afforded a faction BS when I had 2.7m SP. My honest opinion is that it's bit too early - SP and personal experience wise - to fly around in a Ship like that in a 0.5 system. If you must, at least set your Standings towards goons to - 10 and observe Local for red minuses -then dock up/log off if you see too many. If they always are around, consider moving to another Region.
Geisladiskur	Posted - 2009.11.14 11:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Bashe Zor Originally by: Marko Riva you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? faction ammo is hardly something to get that exited over... Where does it say "faction ammo" in that quote?
Cunane Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.14 13:23:00 - [13] Pratically the best thing you can do if you wish to keep flying a low skilled CNR is move up to a higher sec status system, the concord response would be a lot faster. But in the meantime (and if you have your heart set on that same agent for whatever reason) just fly a standard Raven until you have a bit more SP, as if you do loose it for whatever reason as long as you have it insured you won't have taken a isk hit. Maybe slower for the time being, but just get your SP up and your'll be fine (unless you mission in lowsec, then your boned.) Keep at it :D
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.14 14:12:00 - [14] First I will say that if you shouldn't be flying a CNR with that many skill points, its not that you "shouldn't" so much that you have a very high chance of losing it due to not having the skills to fly it properly. As for actually avoiding suicide ganks its very easy really. Mission in higher security space as concord takes longer to respond in lower sec places. Move 40km away from the initial warp of the mission and be prepared to warp out if a bunch of battleships warp in. Set your scanner to 360 degrees and a short distance 50000km for example and scan periodically, this will let you see any ships in warp to you, or sitting at the acceleration gate. Don't auto-pilot. Don't AFK on gates with an expensive ship. Set goonfleet to negative standings so you can see them a bunch of them enter local, I can imagine that they will be particularly targeting you after this thread, so its probably a good idea. Kazang
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:14:00 - [15] I already received the obligatory extortion letter from the goons. I haven't said anything negative about them here, so I'm not sure if this should provoke them any further. But we are talking about the goons here, people that pride themselves on exploiting other's RL fears of terrorism and radical Muslims, so rationality is a useless tool when trying to predict their behavior. Move to higher sec - check, but only for a little while before I move to null-sec. I've also been told already about the local and scanner tricks all though I appreciate the input. Not flying a CNR with somewhat low skills... Ok here's the rub. I don't think my skills would have mattered. Honestly, if I'm going to continue with missioning at all, I really don't have a problem with, in fact, already planned to not use a CNR, but not because of being under skilled. I'm plenty skilled enough to use it against rats. I just figured that if the goons get their jollies popping CNR's in hi-sec there's really no point in flying it, and that was the gist of my question so I thank you for your answers. But really, aren't 15 BS's going to alpha you regardless of your SP if they catch you flat footed? I can't see how tech II anything was going to save my hide. This was all about tactics and being prepared. So my question was about tactics. I knew I had a resist hole but I didn't think it mattered in missions. Even with resists, aren't I still going to get popped by 15 BS's? I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. That's what progression is all about. Lets be honest, this particular situation had nothing to due with SP and everything to do with experience and tactics, or am I wrong? Seems to me that I could avoid the goons with some extra precautions and due diligence, regardless of what I'm flying. I had heard of suicide ganking before, but every case example was either against a freighter carrying super expensive cargo, or the one off at a gate or around a station or something. It simply never occurred to me that there was a contingent of players who would scan down a mission runner who offers virtually no profit and would cost a decent penny in ships and sec status to kill, just for kicks and giggles. No one ever told me that, so I wasn't ready for it. You see I'm a very rational person. I balance risk vs reward, always. This was a hard way to find out that rationality is a liability in eve, not an asset, lol. The CNR is an expensive ship yes, but I wasn't carrying anything expensive, which I thought put me under the radar of the ganking for profit pirates out there.
Jessica Fyers Gallente Azure Horizon	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:37:00 - [16] Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 15:36:58 Until such time as CCP realizes that the insurance system is broken and used to the advantage of the suicider, you can expect anyone to try and suicide you. As it is, suiciding with fully insured BS with cheap t1 stuff fitted is not costing them much, as opposed to the victim, who usually cant even insure his ship (t2/faction). Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. ---------------------------------------------- Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire!
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:38:00 - [17] taps roof of clown car Come out of there, Goonies, you're not fooling anyone. And WTH is that circus seal doing in there?
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. That's what progression is all about. Lets be honest, this particular situation had nothing to due with SP and everything to do with experience and tactics, or am I wrong? Well you're wrong in the first instance and correct in the second. No amount of shiny ships and faction gear will make you uber in Eve. Real progression comes when you have the skills and experience to get the job done with basic t1 and t2 gear that costs you very little if you loose it. You will no longer be a target for gankers and oppotunists as you've got nothing they want. But should a combat situation arise, your knowledge of fitting, tactics and your enemies ships weaknesses mean any assailant will get a nasty shock as you **** them in your grimy old domi or equivalent.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra.
Zaphod Frogmouth	Posted - 2009.11.14 16:35:00 - [20] Considering how you didn't expect to be ganked because you didn't have any expensive gear fitted: 1. They probably didn't know, since they just scanned down your ship but most likely not its fittings. Usually one expects a mission CNR to be stuffed with faction/officer gear... 2. They probably didn't care if you had anything expensive on that ship anyway - seeing how goons used to kill tons of mining vessels which are not particulary lnown for dropping very good loot anyway.

Jessica Fyers Gallente Azure Horizon	Posted - 2009.11.14 17:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 17:21:36 Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra. No, 'frontier' justice only exists in places where there is no established authority, like lowsec/ nullsec/ w-space. Think of hisec as everyday city life: you are 'safer' but can still get your bag taken by a guy on a bike. Say that police will get that guy by ramming his bike/ shooting the tires... will they recompense him for the damage inflicted on his vehicle? Be serious.... ---------------------------------------------- Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire!
Vaerk One Amarr Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.14 17:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Geisladiskur Originally by: Bashe Zor Originally by: Marko Riva you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? faction ammo is hardly something to get that exited over... Where does it say "faction ammo" in that quote? Originally by: Cashus I MIGHT have had some caldari navy cruise missiles but that was it, and not many if I had them. I can't remember Where does it say "faction items" in that quote?
Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2009.11.14 20:41:00 - [23] Use normal raven and don¦t sweat about it. You can insure it as well if you are willing to take 30mil cut on your profits every 3 monts (3 ccc:s), just self-destruct your raven if insurance is running out and buy a new one.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.14 23:51:00 - [24] * Drop a can at the warp-in point. * Move away from the warp-in point, at least more than Warp Disruptor range (24km). * If someone warps in, you warp out.
amdul kabar	Posted - 2009.11.15 01:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. Men think about sex every 15 seconds, does that mean they should get it on three times a day? Very often, following human nature and choosing what seems to be the easy route is not the right choice. If gankers are determined they can kill you anywhere, but if you fly a standard Raven, fully insured with mostly T1 mods then they won't waste their effort on you because they know it would be a small financial loss on your end.
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.15 03:28:00 - [26] Tau, thank you! Some real practical advice that I hadn't considered. My only concern with that is warp in can vary greatly depending on where you hit the warp gate from, very often I warp my alt in seconds after my main and he's 20-30km away. But that doesn't mean I can't get to 50 to be safe.
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.15 03:38:00 - [27] Abdul, I agree with your sentiment. Your first impulse isn't always the wisest choice, and I'm convinced enough to give up on the CNR for now. In fact, my second choice to missioning was to train up for a stealth bomber and go get killed a few dozen times learning pvp, so I think that's the way to go. I'm about 60 days of SP, give or take, away from a fully t2 fitted Manticore (a highly rated battleclinic fitting at that). That will be fun I'm sure and at only about 50 mil a pop I won't lose my marbles when I die. However, as a scientifically minded skeptic, I have to point out that your "men think about sex..." comment is an urban myth. It simply isn't true. Sorry to point it out, I know it sounds like I'm nit picking. I'm practically OCD about people reciting urban myths. It's right up there with "We only use 15% of our brains" Please don't be offended, these memes are generally accepted by 90% of the population with out a second thought even though they have no basis in scientific fact.
Toxif Minmatar First Slave Corporation	Posted - 2009.11.15 04:42:00 - [28] Edited by: Toxif on 15/11/2009 04:43:26 Srs advice: First, avoid missioning in lowsec until you've at least spent a few months there PvPing so you have a better understanding of how pirates and gankers work. The first and only time I ever accepted a mission in lowsec (lvl 2 mission), I was scanned down and blown out of the water. Solution: fly your CNR, but run missions in highsec. There, your only worry is ninja salvaging, and that can be solved by recruiting a salvager to follow your around =) Second, don't listen to the elitists who say you're not "allowed" to run lvl 4s in a BS with only 2.7m sp. If you are able to do it, by all means, go for it. They're just **ed you're making money they could only have dreamed about when they had 2.7m sp. I have 7m and access to lvl 4s, and the only reason I'm not running them yet is because I can't afford a Raven - my Drake is tearing through lvl 3s, though it doesn't have the DPS for lvl 4s. Good luck, and fly safe =) ____________________________________________________________ Originally by:** MorbidAngel4 ......So this is what my social security tax goes towards....
Timmy theButcher	Posted - 2009.11.15 10:55:00 - [29] 1. He was in highsec. 2. Nobody said he wasn't allowed to do whatever he wants. 3. Discouraging someone with 2.7 mill SP to run missions in a poorly fitted CNR in 0.5 isn't elitist, it's common sense and sound advice.
Kuluskitur Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.11.15 11:02:00 - [30] Vote for Z0D for CSM Nerf suicide ganking ??? Profit! *** We fight for Freedom!



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