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Whats the point of a CNR if it's just a gank magnet?

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Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 07:58:00 - [1] Edited by: Cashus on 14/11/2009 07:59:45 Ok, so I got my shiny new CNR ganked in .5 by the goons. I'm not QQing over it, well not any more at least. It was a harsh reality check and it actually got me thinking long and hard about how I can avoid the same thing happening to me again. The new level of awareness it's given me has actually added some spice to my missioning. I've asked friends in game and have been given a few answers, and have come up with some of my own ideas. I want to throw it out here to A) confirm some of what I've already been told and/or B) See if I'm headed down the right road in my scheming. The primary advice I've been given by most is simply don't fly a CNR. It's a gank magnet. The goons will blow one up whenever possible just because it's fun for them. Ok, I can accept this, but given that the CNR is also not the best PVP ship due to it's high cost, is the answer really to just not fly one? Whats the point of it being in the game then? BTW, I'm NOT talking about a faction fitted CNR here. Just a normal T1/T2 fit. The extra missile slot and shields really make level 4's a lot quicker, so to me, it seemed worth it. Other advice I've read is "watch local and keep your scanner up and refreshed". Thats great, but local chat is certainly no guarantee and the scanner is only useful once I'm undocked. I know I need to be aligned to a safe spot from now on, thats a no brainer, but if the tackler gets the jump on me, I'm toast, no matter how diligent I am. I've thought about parking a cloaked alt at the acc. gate so I can see the tackler coming (yes I have 2 accounts), but what about missions with no gate? My alt is usually my salvager so this would put a big crimp in my income as well. Even if I make 30 mil a mission, I'm still looking at a net loss of somewhere around 20-30 missions of income just to replace one cheaply fitted CNR. If the answer is, don't fly the CNR, then I guess I won't fly it. My actual plan is to move to 0.0 where at least I can count on some friends for protection and give up on missioning all together, which is too bad because I actually enjoyed it for a while. I could go back to a regular raven but it just takes so much longer to finish a mission with it. This isn't just about isk/hour. I had a target time to get my missions down to because of RL concerns. Most nights I barely have the time to finish a lvl 4 in my CNR and Drake combo (splitting the tank and salvaging with the drake as I go). Downgrading to the regular raven would mean losing about 2-3 nights a week of missioning. I could of course make up the difference with skills, which I'm working on, but I only have about 2.7m SP right now so I have a long way to go. Any thoughts? Any advice on how to deal with suicide gankers?
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:07:00 - [2] By NOT having 2.7 mil SP when flying faction BS's, that's a decent first. Apart from that; going assume they ganked you because of the mods you fitted, not because you flew a CNR. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. ADM-I
lilrez GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:17:00 - [3] I'm wondering why they ganked you at all. I don't see any Faction/Deadspace/Officer loot. Welp. As for advice: train some skills jeez you should be in BC's with so little skill. When you can field a full T2 fit then consider stepping into a CNR. Maybe that will make your missions go by faster.
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:32:00 - [4] Well, a slow lvl 4 is worth a ton more then even 3 fast lvl 3's. I fly the Raven in missions quite capably. My only issue really is DPS, but I get your point. And no, I had no faction mods or anything like that. I MIGHT have had some caldari navy cruise missiles but that was it, and not many if I had them. I can't remember. I usually only load them against named BS's with particularly tough to break tanks. And sure, I can tank a lot better in a Drake then I can a BS, but drakes are just really slow on the DPS side for lvl 4 missions. Even if a little under skilled, the BS is the better choice, especially when I'm ALSO bringing a drake. I was chewing through lvl 4's setting the raven up for full dps and using the drake for all the aggro, but then I'd have to come back to salvage and probably lose most of it to ninja's. My counter to that was to upgrade to the CNR so I could fit the drake with salvagers and tractor beams instead of missile bays for the extra dps. Really what I wanted to know, aside from the low SP, because that's something only time can fix, is what are some tactics people use against suicide gankers?
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Marko Riva on 14/11/2009 08:52:10 Quote: I fly the Raven in missions quite capably No you don't, also see Quote: My only issue really is DPS Quote: I MIGHT have had some caldari navy cruise missiles but that was it, and not many if I had them. I can't remember you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? I guess this can be summed up as "new player grinds his way towards level 4's without understanding the game, bought himself some isk and got a faction (fit) BS. Now lost it due to incompetence, inexperience and well... Goons. He grinds to make cash to buy ships to grind faster and doesn't take the whole skilling thing into account". On the premise that you didn't put expensive faction mods on your ship; missions ships mostly have a huge resist hole which is easily made use of by some insured cheaply fitted BS's. Reason; for the lulz and to show you a silly fit faction BS flown by a low SP character doesn't neccesarily work. If you DID make it worthwhile for them due to your mods; **** happens, be more careful next time. Welcome to EVE. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. ADM-I
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:52:00 - [6] Goons do it just for the tears (which, as you have posted here, they are extremely happy about it) and the 'lulz' - fly a Raven if you can't handle the ISK loss. Even if you have a really badly fitted CNR they will want to pop it. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Ladani	Posted - 2009.11.14 08:58:00 - [7] And that's why insurance payouts for suicide ganks should be removed. So that it costs them something too.
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.14 09:31:00 - [8] ITT bored goons play both sides against the middle.
Bashe Zor	Posted - 2009.11.14 09:57:00 - [9] Originally by: Marko Riva you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? faction ammo is hardly something to get that exited over...
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 10:21:00 - [10] Thanks to those that actually offered some advice. The rest of you (I'm talking to you Marko) really need to seek professional help. It's a game, I'm here to learn it and have fun. If I lose some ships in the process, or some isk, so what. It's pixels. The better I get at it, and the more I learn, the more fun I have, so sue me for asking a question. Most of this stuff isn't written down any where so I'm asking. I guess I'll stick to reading other newbs getting torn to shreds by asshats like Marko that think every one should be born in to the game knowing what they do.

Zaphod Frogmouth	Posted - 2009.11.14 10:58:00 - [11] Edited by: Zaphod Frogmouth on 14/11/2009 10:59:47 well - you should probably also avoid 0.5 Systems when running l4's with a poorly skilled and fitted CNR - concord response is faster and more pronounced the higher the Sec Status of a System is. Whilst I get your Point about isk/hour, you seem to be doing rather well in that regard Even with your limited playing time anyway - I at least couldn't have afforded a faction BS when I had 2.7m SP. My honest opinion is that it's bit too early - SP and personal experience wise - to fly around in a Ship like that in a 0.5 system. If you must, at least set your Standings towards goons to - 10 and observe Local for red minuses -then dock up/log off if you see too many. If they always are around, consider moving to another Region.
Geisladiskur	Posted - 2009.11.14 11:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Bashe Zor Originally by: Marko Riva you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? faction ammo is hardly something to get that exited over... Where does it say "faction ammo" in that quote?
Cunane Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.14 13:23:00 - [13] Pratically the best thing you can do if you wish to keep flying a low skilled CNR is move up to a higher sec status system, the concord response would be a lot faster. But in the meantime (and if you have your heart set on that same agent for whatever reason) just fly a standard Raven until you have a bit more SP, as if you do loose it for whatever reason as long as you have it insured you won't have taken a isk hit. Maybe slower for the time being, but just get your SP up and your'll be fine (unless you mission in lowsec, then your boned.) Keep at it :D
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.14 14:12:00 - [14] First I will say that if you shouldn't be flying a CNR with that many skill points, its not that you "shouldn't" so much that you have a very high chance of losing it due to not having the skills to fly it properly. As for actually avoiding suicide ganks its very easy really. Mission in higher security space as concord takes longer to respond in lower sec places. Move 40km away from the initial warp of the mission and be prepared to warp out if a bunch of battleships warp in. Set your scanner to 360 degrees and a short distance 50000km for example and scan periodically, this will let you see any ships in warp to you, or sitting at the acceleration gate. Don't auto-pilot. Don't AFK on gates with an expensive ship. Set goonfleet to negative standings so you can see them a bunch of them enter local, I can imagine that they will be particularly targeting you after this thread, so its probably a good idea. Kazang
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:14:00 - [15] I already received the obligatory extortion letter from the goons. I haven't said anything negative about them here, so I'm not sure if this should provoke them any further. But we are talking about the goons here, people that pride themselves on exploiting other's RL fears of terrorism and radical Muslims, so rationality is a useless tool when trying to predict their behavior. Move to higher sec - check, but only for a little while before I move to null-sec. I've also been told already about the local and scanner tricks all though I appreciate the input. Not flying a CNR with somewhat low skills... Ok here's the rub. I don't think my skills would have mattered. Honestly, if I'm going to continue with missioning at all, I really don't have a problem with, in fact, already planned to not use a CNR, but not because of being under skilled. I'm plenty skilled enough to use it against rats. I just figured that if the goons get their jollies popping CNR's in hi-sec there's really no point in flying it, and that was the gist of my question so I thank you for your answers. But really, aren't 15 BS's going to alpha you regardless of your SP if they catch you flat footed? I can't see how tech II anything was going to save my hide. This was all about tactics and being prepared. So my question was about tactics. I knew I had a resist hole but I didn't think it mattered in missions. Even with resists, aren't I still going to get popped by 15 BS's? I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. That's what progression is all about. Lets be honest, this particular situation had nothing to due with SP and everything to do with experience and tactics, or am I wrong? Seems to me that I could avoid the goons with some extra precautions and due diligence, regardless of what I'm flying. I had heard of suicide ganking before, but every case example was either against a freighter carrying super expensive cargo, or the one off at a gate or around a station or something. It simply never occurred to me that there was a contingent of players who would scan down a mission runner who offers virtually no profit and would cost a decent penny in ships and sec status to kill, just for kicks and giggles. No one ever told me that, so I wasn't ready for it. You see I'm a very rational person. I balance risk vs reward, always. This was a hard way to find out that rationality is a liability in eve, not an asset, lol. The CNR is an expensive ship yes, but I wasn't carrying anything expensive, which I thought put me under the radar of the ganking for profit pirates out there.
Jessica Fyers Gallente Azure Horizon	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:37:00 - [16] Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 15:36:58 Until such time as CCP realizes that the insurance system is broken and used to the advantage of the suicider, you can expect anyone to try and suicide you. As it is, suiciding with fully insured BS with cheap t1 stuff fitted is not costing them much, as opposed to the victim, who usually cant even insure his ship (t2/faction). Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. ---------------------------------------------- Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire!
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:38:00 - [17] taps roof of clown car Come out of there, Goonies, you're not fooling anyone. And WTH is that circus seal doing in there?
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. That's what progression is all about. Lets be honest, this particular situation had nothing to due with SP and everything to do with experience and tactics, or am I wrong? Well you're wrong in the first instance and correct in the second. No amount of shiny ships and faction gear will make you uber in Eve. Real progression comes when you have the skills and experience to get the job done with basic t1 and t2 gear that costs you very little if you loose it. You will no longer be a target for gankers and oppotunists as you've got nothing they want. But should a combat situation arise, your knowledge of fitting, tactics and your enemies ships weaknesses mean any assailant will get a nasty shock as you **** them in your grimy old domi or equivalent.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.14 15:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra.
Zaphod Frogmouth	Posted - 2009.11.14 16:35:00 - [20] Considering how you didn't expect to be ganked because you didn't have any expensive gear fitted: 1. They probably didn't know, since they just scanned down your ship but most likely not its fittings. Usually one expects a mission CNR to be stuffed with faction/officer gear... 2. They probably didn't care if you had anything expensive on that ship anyway - seeing how goons used to kill tons of mining vessels which are not particulary lnown for dropping very good loot anyway.

Jessica Fyers Gallente Azure Horizon	Posted - 2009.11.14 17:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 17:21:36 Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra. No, 'frontier' justice only exists in places where there is no established authority, like lowsec/ nullsec/ w-space. Think of hisec as everyday city life: you are 'safer' but can still get your bag taken by a guy on a bike. Say that police will get that guy by ramming his bike/ shooting the tires... will they recompense him for the damage inflicted on his vehicle? Be serious.... ---------------------------------------------- Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire!
Vaerk One Amarr Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.14 17:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Geisladiskur Originally by: Bashe Zor Originally by: Marko Riva you... can't remember if you had faction items on your prize ship that got blown up. Are you on drugs? Do you know what you're doing? Should you even be playing this game (like you are)? faction ammo is hardly something to get that exited over... Where does it say "faction ammo" in that quote? Originally by: Cashus I MIGHT have had some caldari navy cruise missiles but that was it, and not many if I had them. I can't remember Where does it say "faction items" in that quote?
Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2009.11.14 20:41:00 - [23] Use normal raven and don¦t sweat about it. You can insure it as well if you are willing to take 30mil cut on your profits every 3 monts (3 ccc:s), just self-destruct your raven if insurance is running out and buy a new one.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.14 23:51:00 - [24] * Drop a can at the warp-in point. * Move away from the warp-in point, at least more than Warp Disruptor range (24km). * If someone warps in, you warp out.
amdul kabar	Posted - 2009.11.15 01:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. Men think about sex every 15 seconds, does that mean they should get it on three times a day? Very often, following human nature and choosing what seems to be the easy route is not the right choice. If gankers are determined they can kill you anywhere, but if you fly a standard Raven, fully insured with mostly T1 mods then they won't waste their effort on you because they know it would be a small financial loss on your end.
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.15 03:28:00 - [26] Tau, thank you! Some real practical advice that I hadn't considered. My only concern with that is warp in can vary greatly depending on where you hit the warp gate from, very often I warp my alt in seconds after my main and he's 20-30km away. But that doesn't mean I can't get to 50 to be safe.
Cashus	Posted - 2009.11.15 03:38:00 - [27] Abdul, I agree with your sentiment. Your first impulse isn't always the wisest choice, and I'm convinced enough to give up on the CNR for now. In fact, my second choice to missioning was to train up for a stealth bomber and go get killed a few dozen times learning pvp, so I think that's the way to go. I'm about 60 days of SP, give or take, away from a fully t2 fitted Manticore (a highly rated battleclinic fitting at that). That will be fun I'm sure and at only about 50 mil a pop I won't lose my marbles when I die. However, as a scientifically minded skeptic, I have to point out that your "men think about sex..." comment is an urban myth. It simply isn't true. Sorry to point it out, I know it sounds like I'm nit picking. I'm practically OCD about people reciting urban myths. It's right up there with "We only use 15% of our brains" Please don't be offended, these memes are generally accepted by 90% of the population with out a second thought even though they have no basis in scientific fact.
Toxif Minmatar First Slave Corporation	Posted - 2009.11.15 04:42:00 - [28] Edited by: Toxif on 15/11/2009 04:43:26 Srs advice: First, avoid missioning in lowsec until you've at least spent a few months there PvPing so you have a better understanding of how pirates and gankers work. The first and only time I ever accepted a mission in lowsec (lvl 2 mission), I was scanned down and blown out of the water. Solution: fly your CNR, but run missions in highsec. There, your only worry is ninja salvaging, and that can be solved by recruiting a salvager to follow your around =) Second, don't listen to the elitists who say you're not "allowed" to run lvl 4s in a BS with only 2.7m sp. If you are able to do it, by all means, go for it. They're just **ed you're making money they could only have dreamed about when they had 2.7m sp. I have 7m and access to lvl 4s, and the only reason I'm not running them yet is because I can't afford a Raven - my Drake is tearing through lvl 3s, though it doesn't have the DPS for lvl 4s. Good luck, and fly safe =) ____________________________________________________________ Originally by:** MorbidAngel4 ......So this is what my social security tax goes towards....
Timmy theButcher	Posted - 2009.11.15 10:55:00 - [29] 1. He was in highsec. 2. Nobody said he wasn't allowed to do whatever he wants. 3. Discouraging someone with 2.7 mill SP to run missions in a poorly fitted CNR in 0.5 isn't elitist, it's common sense and sound advice.
Kuluskitur Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.11.15 11:02:00 - [30] Vote for Z0D for CSM Nerf suicide ganking ??? Profit! *** We fight for Freedom!

Vaerk One Amarr Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.15 13:11:00 - [31] Edited by: Vaerk One on 15/11/2009 13:11:27 Originally by: amdul kabar Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. Men think about sex every 15 seconds, does that mean they should get it on three times a day? Personally, I think you take pixel spaceships a little bit too serious, but everyone play this game as they like, your money your game. If the OP want to fly a CNR with 2.6m SP its his choice, just like its another players choice to grow into the smaller shipclassed before upgrading to bigger.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.15 14:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Think of hisec as everyday city life Not really true Jessica, you see the forces of law and order do everything they can to discourage crime in RL cities. CCP have the ability to make Hi-sec totally safe but they don't want it like that. Eve is not a care bear game, CCP know that the mechanics of insurance allow for hi-sec suicide ganking and, like most of the rest of us, the devs probably beam with glee when some stupid carebear with a billion isk cargo gets himself blown to kingdom come! The guys that designed this game intended it as a dark and dangerous PVP space combat experience, not a space based mining and trading simulator. Long may the forces of darkness in the Eve universe continue to terrorise those too weak to defend themselves. There is enough nanny state in the real world - not here thank you!!
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.15 16:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Vaerk One Edited by: Vaerk One on 15/11/2009 13:11:27 Originally by: amdul kabar Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. Men think about sex every 15 seconds, does that mean they should get it on three times a day? Personally, I think you take pixel spaceships a little bit too serious, but everyone play this game as they like, your money your game. If the OP want to fly a CNR with 2.6m SP its his choice, just like its another players choice to grow into the smaller shipclassed before upgrading to bigger. Yes its his choice to this, but it's that choice that lead to him losing the ship. That's is why we are suggesting him not to fly a CNR with so little sp. I know personally if i see a player only a couple of months old in a CNR my eyes light up with dollars signs as i see the giant bullseye painted on the ship. You know he will have substandard yet expensive meta 4 mods and possibly some faction thrown in for good measure. Low SP characters in expensive ships attract attention. Its like parking your brand new Lexus in the roughest neighbourhood in your city, it just screams idiot and easy target. You can do it sure, but its just stupid and don't go crying about it when its gets stolen or torched after people told you not to do it, because they are going to have no sympathy for you. Aside from that running level 4's with only 2.6m sp is going to be very slow, that's not elitism its a fact, i tried it myself its just not a good idea. Sticking with L3's and doing them faster is far better from an isk and fun point of view, as spending 10 minutes killing each bs is tedious at best. Kazang
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.15 18:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 17:21:36 Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra. No, 'frontier' justice only exists in places where there is no established authority, like lowsec/ nullsec/ w-space. Think of hisec as everyday city life: you are 'safer' but can still get your bag taken by a guy on a bike. Say that police will get that guy by ramming his bike/ shooting the tires... will they recompense him for the damage inflicted on his vehicle? Be serious.... Everyday city life with swarms of pirate battleships in system, right?
Panzram GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.15 20:03:00 - [35] CNR's are sooooo 2007. You should fly a Golem.
BuRniZZ Caldari The Warped Corpe The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.16 01:39:00 - [36] Originally by: Toxif Edited by: Toxif on 15/11/2009 04:43:26 Srs advice: First, avoid missioning in lowsec until you've at least spent a few months there PvPing so you have a better understanding of how pirates and gankers work. The first and only time I ever accepted a mission in lowsec (lvl 2 mission), I was scanned down and blown out of the water. Solution: fly your CNR, but run missions in highsec. There, your only worry is ninja salvaging, and that can be solved by recruiting a salvager to follow your around =) Second, don't listen to the elitists who say you're not "allowed" to run lvl 4s in a BS with only 2.7m sp. If you are able to do it, by all means, go for it. They're just ****ed you're making money they could only have dreamed about when they had 2.7m sp. I have 7m and access to lvl 4s, and the only reason I'm not running them yet is because I can't afford a Raven - my Drake is tearing through lvl 3s, though it doesn't have the DPS for lvl 4s. Good luck, and fly safe =) 7m SP and can't afford a Raven. I think I'd think twice before taking "srs advice" from you. 2.7m SP and a CNR. Fair enough, you'll make more isk/hr than in a drake. But the risk of losing it is fairly high as well. Warp into one of the harder l4s with several tacklers and huge initial dps = 600m loss. That means that even if you are only unlucky once it's still gonna take you a long time to make your choice profitable. Although judging from your posts here you have way more isk than a newb should have, so that might not be a factor. If you buy gtcs and get more enjoyment from flying it, have fun, but if profit matters, dont. Oh, and if you buy isk another way: Die horribly and burn in hell forever. (in game)
Baka Lakadaka Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.11.16 04:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Cashus In fact, my second choice to missioning was to train up for a stealth bomber and go get killed a few dozen times learning pvp, so I think that's the way to go. I'm about 60 days of SP, give or take, away from a fully t2 fitted Manticore (a highly rated battleclinic fitting at that). That will be fun I'm sure and at only about 50 mil a pop I won't lose my marbles when I die. 50 mil per SB is a little high, there are cheaper ways to fit a SB with good effectiveness. Losing SBs isn't uncommon, they're a glass cannon and pop rather easily. ______________________ Agony Unleashed is proud to support TeaDaze for CSM
NobodyHolme Gallente Deep Core Fishing	Posted - 2009.11.16 04:54:00 - [38] Might i suggest missioning in 1.0 in a CNR with jump clone in nullsec with your buddies? both worlds, best of. Because I can.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.16 10:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra. While your points are valid, i think the ways are not. I think things are reversed on waht woudl be the best setup. Imposign your wrath and damaging someoen you need or really want to damage should be easier, but should be costier. I think concord response times should be WORSENED.. by a LOT! But on other hand insurance should not be given to the suicide gankers. Suicide ganking shoudl be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost " i am bored, lets ruin somebody's day"
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Seishi Maru Suicide ganking should be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost "I am bored, lets ruin somebody's day" Thing is Seishi, people don't get suicide ganked repeatedly (unless they're stupid) because after it's happened a few times they'll learn the sort of ships that might be suspect and they'll learn how to protect themselves from attack or take the fight to the enemy. And that is the key fact, they have to learn to protect themselves and this can be a harsh lesson. But that is the Eve experience and it's why I love this game more than any other I've ever played. There is risk and consequence involved and danger as real as you can get it in a computer game. This is a visceral experience where your nerves will be frayed and your temper tested, some will fail but those with the gumption to stick it out will reap the rewards. Suicide ganking is tacitly supported by CCP through the insurance mechanics because they want no player to be able to be or feel completely safe. They also want to encourage all players to take part in the most rewarding aspects of the game i.e. co-operative PVP combat. You discover the heart and soul of this game when you start to fight back.

Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:30:00 - [41] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Seishi Maru Suicide ganking should be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost "I am bored, lets ruin somebody's day" Thing is Seishi, people don't get suicide ganked repeatedly (unless they're stupid) because after it's happened a few times they'll learn the sort of ships that might be suspect and they'll learn how to protect themselves from attack or take the fight to the enemy. And that is the key fact, they have to learn to protect themselves and this can be a harsh lesson. But that is the Eve experience and it's why I love this game more than any other I've ever played. There is risk and consequence involved and danger as real as you can get it in a computer game. This is a visceral experience where your nerves will be frayed and your temper tested, some will fail but those with the gumption to stick it out will reap the rewards. Suicide ganking is tacitly supported by CCP through the insurance mechanics because they want no player to be able to be or feel completely safe. They also want to encourage all players to take part in the most rewarding aspects of the game i.e. co-operative PVP combat. You discover the heart and soul of this game when you start to fight back. but the poitn remaisn that the no cost suicide ganking creates situatiosn like the OP. Where really, using navy vessels becomes nearly impossible in some systems. Because you have ZERO cost, except gettign drunk with a few friends to ruin someone. Everythign in game shoudl have REAL consequences. EVERYTHIGN.. including suicide ganking.
Jin Turbo Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.16 17:25:00 - [42] Originally by: Seishi Maru but the poitn remaisn that the no cost suicide ganking creates situatiosn like the OP. Where really, using navy vessels becomes nearly impossible in some systems. Because you have ZERO cost, except gettign drunk with a few friends to ruin someone. Everythign in game shoudl have REAL consequences. EVERYTHIGN.. including suicide ganking. The suicide gank squad will argue up and down that there should be no consequences for them. Game mechanics aside, why would any insurance company pay out to someone who essentially destroys their own stuff? Or at the very least, why pay out more than once? Why insure them a second time? Why not up the rates for those who require pay outs more often? Why not lower insurance rates for people who rarely get blown up? Insurance is currently a one size fits all. The system probably honestly needs to be looked at and overhauled. Rates for T2 ships, non-payment clauses, etc. Changing anything in the game requires real time and money, so I doubt we'll see anything (Not to mention admitting that it wasn't totally 100% bulletproof perfect to begin with). Working as intended. kkthxbye.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.16 17:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Jin Turbo Originally by: Seishi Maru but the poitn remaisn that the no cost suicide ganking creates situatiosn like the OP. Where really, using navy vessels becomes nearly impossible in some systems. Because you have ZERO cost, except gettign drunk with a few friends to ruin someone. Everythign in game shoudl have REAL consequences. EVERYTHIGN.. including suicide ganking. The suicide gank squad will argue up and down that there should be no consequences for them. Game mechanics aside, why would any insurance company pay out to someone who essentially destroys their own stuff? Or at the very least, why pay out more than once? Why insure them a second time? Why not up the rates for those who require pay outs more often? Why not lower insurance rates for people who rarely get blown up? Insurance is currently a one size fits all. The system probably honestly needs to be looked at and overhauled. Rates for T2 ships, non-payment clauses, etc. Changing anything in the game requires real time and money, so I doubt we'll see anything (Not to mention admitting that it wasn't totally 100% bulletproof perfect to begin with). Working as intended. kkthxbye. I do support that suicide ganking shoulg have no insurance payout. Because any actions should have consequences. But at same time I think concord is TOO fast and powerful nowadays. On my eyes 3-4 battleships in gank mode shoudl have tiem to kill a batteship in 0.5. But shoudl get no isk from insurance
Lab Ratorius	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:13:00 - [44] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 15:36:58 Until such time as CCP realizes that the insurance system is broken .. Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. Also some Concord escort/tailing for frequent offenders would put some balance on this thing.. at least around gates/stations
James Tritanius	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:19:00 - [45] Edited by: James Tritanius on 16/11/2009 19:19:26 Don't worry, highsec CNR ganks don't happen too often. Move to a 0.7+ system and I can almost guarantee it won't happen again.
Jhoran Venn SPORADIC MOVEMENT Cult of War	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:31:00 - [46] Personally.. Given their large price tag, I think faction ships are, on the whole, a big ** for what they actually give you. That said, some of them are very impressive - those that have had the testicular fortitude to bring them in a fight (have the skills and who know how to fit them!) in lowsec or nullsec. A particular Nightmare springs to mind.. Tanking a ridiculous amount of DPS, and thumbing its nose at us before disengaging. And yeah, Eve is a horrible place. Full of people who just want to chalk up another skull on the side of their **pit. Any way they can do it and get away with it, they will. Some of them are very, very skilled at it. But if you adopt certain methods, you can certainly limit your exposure to them. Or at least, limit your chances. Do vary your route. Do vary your areas of play. Do scout systems before you enter them with your all-singing-all-dancing best ship ever. Write down peoples names you remember. Do hit that planet at 100, and then bounce to the gate, or back to the previous gate and backpedal if you think someone is tailing you. Do change the stations where you keep your ships, and where you buy the fittings (particularly if you just fly in, buy them, fit them and go). Maybe buy them in a frigate, and then fly to the station where your gold-plated high-roller is from there. These are all just small ways you can avoid the interest of those who would like to deprive you of what you have. In Eve, if you think you're safe, you're not. You're just having a lucky day. You have to be a tricky mofo to get by in this world. Be innovative and unpredictable. And please.. If you do get ganked, just leave. Go about your business rebuilding your pride. Don't private convo people. Don't smack talk in local. If you come back in a noobship and whine at the people who killed you, expect to be killed again. I'd go GCC for that any day. -- Jhoran.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:48:00 - [47] Jhoran, your post is accurate, eloquent and informative. +1 from me. The wisdom is there if you choose to listen to it folks..........
God GirlFriend	Posted - 2009.11.17 00:58:00 - [48] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Jhoran, your post is accurate, eloquent and informative. +1 from me. The wisdom is there if you choose to listen to it folks.......... and stil the point remaisn.. all those words are valid upon the other side as well. Suicide gankers are basically SAFE in game. Since they are sure to have basically no real consequence. CArebears shoudl nto be safe.. neither should suicide gankers. Maybe something else instead of insurance.. like staying free for all for 48 hours? But MUST be some REAL consequence! Carebears shoudl all be in danger.. but at a price!
Yarinor Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:33:00 - [49] Originally by: Kuluskitur Vote for Z0D for CSM Nerf suicide ganking ??? Profit! Except suicide ganking is a good thing!
Titan Pilot Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.11.17 11:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Cashus Edited by: Cashus on 14/11/2009 07:59:45 Ok, so I got my shiny new CNR ganked in .5 by the goons. I'm not QQing over it, well not any more at least. It was a harsh reality check and it actually got me thinking long and hard about how I can avoid the same thing happening to me again. Any thoughts? Any advice on how to deal with suicide gankers? 1. Move to a less populated system and suck up the loss in isk/hr 2. Train your alt to fly logistics and dual box. Keep him very close and ready to rep at moments notice. 3. If you think Empire living is tough, 0.0 will make you emorage quit. Mission running out here is not easy. 4. Train to fly a Domi and forget the above advice and fly whenever, wherever. 5. You have 2.7m SP

Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.17 13:50:00 - [51] Edited by: Dr Lebroi on 17/11/2009 13:51:07 Originally by: God GirlFriend and stil the point remaisn.. all those words are valid upon the other side as well. Suicide gankers are basically SAFE in game. Since they are sure to have basically no real consequence. CArebears shoudl nto be safe.. neither should suicide gankers. Quote: War deccing has been kept cheap to allow you to get your revenge if you've got the guts. War dec the gankers and go after them. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can't do anything in response. RVB have been taking groups of 10-15 noobs into low sec in frigates and cruisers and ganking loads of stuff. Check out this link to a battle report. The cruiser and frig group took down a dominix, a raven and a tempest for the loss of only one thorax. They also accounted for a HAC and two hurricanes the same night. It is possible to be very effective with limited skills and equipment if you band together and organise yourselves. Have a go, loosing cheaply fit frigs and cruisers is a lot cheaper than loosing industrials. http://redfed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4895076
Dandy Lyon	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Seishi Maru They also want to encourage all players to take part in the most rewarding aspects of the game i.e. co-operative PVP combat. You discover the heart and soul of this game when you start to fight back. I keep hearing this statement made, and I gotta say it's garbage. I've been to 0.0, I've lived in 0.0. If PVP was all eve had to offer, I wouldn't be playing any more. What may be rewarding to you, is torture to others. PVP is NOT endgame for me. I enjoy building an empire, and collecting computer pixles. That is the endgame for me. PVP is simply a nessisary evil. Don't get me wrong, I think PVP is important. It is that thing that makes my pixle collecting and empire building a challenge. If I never had to worry about somebody that wanted to take my hard work away from me, the challenge would be gone. The great part of EVE is it can attract so many different play styles and personalities. I'm a prime example of that. I play nearly solo in a game designed for team work, and that's the way I like it! Don't tell me I have to PVP in blobs to play the game properly.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.17 18:18:00 - [53] Ok, Dandy, that's fair enough, I'm not a **** and whatever people enjoy doing with their time is valid if it makes them happy. However, I would say that for the majority of people, life is more rewarding if they interact with other human beings as we are hard wired to be sociable, and have evolved as, social creatures. I know that some people mine in groups and mission together but I do find the idea of playing Eve as a solo game a bit puzzling but it takes all sorts of people to make an interesting world and, as you correctly point out, this is true of the Eve universe just as it is true of the real world. Perhaps the only difference is that the Eve universe has been deliberately created to reward group play. The majority of the programming effort has gone into the whole PVP experience, quite rightly in my opinion as it is where the game really shines above any other.
Lithium Sea GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 01:58:00 - [54] If you would like convo me in game and we can talk about protection on any future CNR. Honestly if the easiest way to avoid the problem your having.
fatherted1989 Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2009.11.18 03:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Toxif Edited by: Toxif on 15/11/2009 04:43:26 Srs advice: First, avoid missioning in lowsec until you've at least spent a few months there PvPing so you have a better understanding of how pirates and gankers work. The first and only time I ever accepted a mission in lowsec (lvl 2 mission), I was scanned down and blown out of the water. Solution: fly your CNR, but run missions in highsec. There, your only worry is ninja salvaging, and that can be solved by recruiting a salvager to follow your around =) Second, don't listen to the elitists who say you're not "allowed" to run lvl 4s in a BS with only 2.7m sp. If you are able to do it, by all means, go for it. They're just ****ed you're making money they could only have dreamed about when they had 2.7m sp. I have 7m and access to lvl 4s, and the only reason I'm not running them yet is because I can't afford a Raven - my Drake is tearing through lvl 3s, though it doesn't have the DPS for lvl 4s. Good luck, and fly safe =) 1) 0.5 is highsec 2)2.7w/e mil SP is not enough to competently fly a CNR. I get what the OP is getting at, and i semi-agree with him.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.18 13:55:00 - [56] Originally by: Seishi Maru I think things are reversed on waht woudl be the best setup. Imposign your wrath and damaging someoen you need or really want to damage should be easier, but should be costier. I think concord response times should be WORSENED.. by a LOT! But on other hand insurance should not be given to the suicide gankers. Suicide ganking shoudl be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost " i am bored, lets ruin somebody's day" This. Suicide ganking should be possible, but not profitable. If you want to pay isk for an attempt to get back at someone, it should be possible. The problem with suicide ganking was not the occasional revenge gank, the problem was that it was becoming a profitable business. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Edited by: Dr Lebroi on 17/11/2009 13:51:07 Originally by: God GirlFriend and stil the point remaisn.. all those words are valid upon the other side as well. Suicide gankers are basically SAFE in game. Since they are sure to have basically no real consequence. CArebears shoudl nto be safe.. neither should suicide gankers. Quote: War deccing has been kept cheap to allow you to get your revenge if you've got the guts. War dec the gankers and go after them. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can't do anything in response. RVB have been taking groups of 10-15 noobs into low sec in frigates and cruisers and ganking loads of stuff. Check out this link to a battle report. The cruiser and frig group took down a dominix, a raven and a tempest for the loss of only one thorax. They also accounted for a HAC and two hurricanes the same night. It is possible to be very effective with limited skills and equipment if you band together and organise yourselves. Have a go, loosing cheaply fit frigs and cruisers is a lot cheaper than loosing industrials. http://redfed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4895076 due to insurance.. why bother with wardec? Why not just suicide gank them as ell? At end this woudl result in whole game becoming a stupid suicide gank fest. NO. suicide gankign should have ZERO return on insurance. ZERO nada. But concord shoudl have near ZERO chance of avoiding it (just punishing it) on anywhere not 1.0 security.
Brunaburh	Posted - 2009.11.18 21:59:00 - [58] Keeping with the second thread in this thread, suicide ganking may be a broken mechanic as far as insurance payouts, as is the (also mentioned) self-destruct when insurance is running out mechanic. Before all you ISK-hooring suicide gankers come and shoot me (I'm in hisec, so it's right up your playstyle), here's my logic. Insurance companies (in RL) will pay out on "it's your fault" actions, but there is a penalty of increased cost of insurance to at-fault users. That is a RL mechanic that is probably too intensive for EVE, but the closest to ideal change in insurance fraud in EVE. Because let's face it, suicide ganking and self-destruct for insurance payouts are exactly that - insurance fraud. You can still get insured in RL when you commit insurance fraud, but you pay so much more for the same coverage that it becomes counter-productive to act in that way. Should CCP kill insurance for suicide gankers and self-imploders? I don't think so, but a system in which suicide ganking has penalties (just like podding players in empire) may be an appropriate option...
Floating Lemming	Posted - 2009.11.19 10:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Timmy theButcher 1. He was in highsec. 2. Nobody said he wasn't allowed to do whatever he wants. 3. Discouraging someone with 2.7 mill SP to run missions in a poorly fitted CNR in 0.5 isn't elitist, it's common sense and sound advice. I call bullcrap , the extra launcher slot and added shieldstrenght allows a lowskilled characters to do L4s he wouldnt be able to complete in a normal raven. I know I did. Not warping out the moment he saw another battleship in his mission however is a rather stupid act.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.11.19 11:28:00 - [60] This is acceptable game play. Brought to you by the same people who are about to rip the guts out of 0.0. The Devs know what's best for this game or CCP wouldn't be paying them so much money. Right?

WaiKin Beldar	Posted - 2009.11.19 14:20:00 - [61] Edited by: WaiKin Beldar on 19/11/2009 14:21:58 Originally by: Jhoran Venn ... stuff ... Jhoran. Props to your way of posting, Jhoran. That's exactly what I'd like to see every single time I come to read through the fora. Someone able to speak in a contended, sensible, educated and honest way no matter what the topic could be, especially to those ones seeking for advice.
faxtarious Minmatar Kai-Zen Security	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:06:00 - [62] The question of the day.. that no one asked is.... How the hell did you loose a CNR in high sec ??? even badly fitted, it will take a few really hard alpha to pop...and you have to do all that with concord shoving its shiney chrome rod up your rear end.
Kalexander	Posted - 2009.11.23 22:42:00 - [63] Their is consequences for suicide ganking. It's not a guaranteed kill. And it takes time to scout, often has a faction hit too. In this particular case, considering that the CNR didn't have any real gems as far as loot goes, means they FAILED and the CNR owner isn't really out all that much other than his hull considering he can get another. Of course, the guys who did it would never admit it matters, but I'm sure when they looked at the wreckage they were mildly disappointed, this was a consequence of their action. They knew that theirs a high chance that a CNR is pimp fitted, but like all things in eve, nothing is guaranteed. Sometimes gankers will even fit an odd tech 2 damage mod or something, putting them just a bit beyond the point of an even payout because they think they'll recoup that cost in the wreckage, and in this kind of case they would be wrong. That is a consequence. Also, the mark can easily be prepared for it, and deny you the kill outright by leaving first, or worse having friends come and help, or any wide number of ways the sandbox game has in place for people to employ their ingenuity to survive. Imagine if the CNR was actually fit to tank the onslaught and then concord came and killed each and every one of the goons in time, would they not look like Major Dooshers? That is a consequence, and considering the name and reputation, one that (again they would never admit) is probably worth more than a CNR loss. These MAY not be good enough consequences to mission runners who min max isk down to the decimal, but just because they don't come up on your radar of highly considerable consequences doesn't mean they don't matter to others.


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