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Whats the point of a CNR if it's just a gank magnet?

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Vaerk One Amarr Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.15 13:11:00 - [31] Edited by: Vaerk One on 15/11/2009 13:11:27 Originally by: amdul kabar Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. Men think about sex every 15 seconds, does that mean they should get it on three times a day? Personally, I think you take pixel spaceships a little bit too serious, but everyone play this game as they like, your money your game. If the OP want to fly a CNR with 2.6m SP its his choice, just like its another players choice to grow into the smaller shipclassed before upgrading to bigger.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.15 14:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Think of hisec as everyday city life Not really true Jessica, you see the forces of law and order do everything they can to discourage crime in RL cities. CCP have the ability to make Hi-sec totally safe but they don't want it like that. Eve is not a care bear game, CCP know that the mechanics of insurance allow for hi-sec suicide ganking and, like most of the rest of us, the devs probably beam with glee when some stupid carebear with a billion isk cargo gets himself blown to kingdom come! The guys that designed this game intended it as a dark and dangerous PVP space combat experience, not a space based mining and trading simulator. Long may the forces of darkness in the Eve universe continue to terrorise those too weak to defend themselves. There is enough nanny state in the real world - not here thank you!!
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.15 16:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Vaerk One Edited by: Vaerk One on 15/11/2009 13:11:27 Originally by: amdul kabar Originally by: Cashus I know all you vets love to lecture noobs about flying too much ship for the SP, but comon guys. It's human nature when you're playing any game to want the next new shiny. Men think about sex every 15 seconds, does that mean they should get it on three times a day? Personally, I think you take pixel spaceships a little bit too serious, but everyone play this game as they like, your money your game. If the OP want to fly a CNR with 2.6m SP its his choice, just like its another players choice to grow into the smaller shipclassed before upgrading to bigger. Yes its his choice to this, but it's that choice that lead to him losing the ship. That's is why we are suggesting him not to fly a CNR with so little sp. I know personally if i see a player only a couple of months old in a CNR my eyes light up with dollars signs as i see the giant bullseye painted on the ship. You know he will have substandard yet expensive meta 4 mods and possibly some faction thrown in for good measure. Low SP characters in expensive ships attract attention. Its like parking your brand new Lexus in the roughest neighbourhood in your city, it just screams idiot and easy target. You can do it sure, but its just stupid and don't go crying about it when its gets stolen or torched after people told you not to do it, because they are going to have no sympathy for you. Aside from that running level 4's with only 2.6m sp is going to be very slow, that's not elitism its a fact, i tried it myself its just not a good idea. Sticking with L3's and doing them faster is far better from an isk and fun point of view, as spending 10 minutes killing each bs is tedious at best. Kazang
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.15 18:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 17:21:36 Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra. No, 'frontier' justice only exists in places where there is no established authority, like lowsec/ nullsec/ w-space. Think of hisec as everyday city life: you are 'safer' but can still get your bag taken by a guy on a bike. Say that police will get that guy by ramming his bike/ shooting the tires... will they recompense him for the damage inflicted on his vehicle? Be serious.... Everyday city life with swarms of pirate battleships in system, right?
Panzram GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.15 20:03:00 - [35] CNR's are sooooo 2007. You should fly a Golem.
BuRniZZ Caldari The Warped Corpe The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.16 01:39:00 - [36] Originally by: Toxif Edited by: Toxif on 15/11/2009 04:43:26 Srs advice: First, avoid missioning in lowsec until you've at least spent a few months there PvPing so you have a better understanding of how pirates and gankers work. The first and only time I ever accepted a mission in lowsec (lvl 2 mission), I was scanned down and blown out of the water. Solution: fly your CNR, but run missions in highsec. There, your only worry is ninja salvaging, and that can be solved by recruiting a salvager to follow your around =) Second, don't listen to the elitists who say you're not "allowed" to run lvl 4s in a BS with only 2.7m sp. If you are able to do it, by all means, go for it. They're just ****ed you're making money they could only have dreamed about when they had 2.7m sp. I have 7m and access to lvl 4s, and the only reason I'm not running them yet is because I can't afford a Raven - my Drake is tearing through lvl 3s, though it doesn't have the DPS for lvl 4s. Good luck, and fly safe =) 7m SP and can't afford a Raven. I think I'd think twice before taking "srs advice" from you. 2.7m SP and a CNR. Fair enough, you'll make more isk/hr than in a drake. But the risk of losing it is fairly high as well. Warp into one of the harder l4s with several tacklers and huge initial dps = 600m loss. That means that even if you are only unlucky once it's still gonna take you a long time to make your choice profitable. Although judging from your posts here you have way more isk than a newb should have, so that might not be a factor. If you buy gtcs and get more enjoyment from flying it, have fun, but if profit matters, dont. Oh, and if you buy isk another way: Die horribly and burn in hell forever. (in game)
Baka Lakadaka Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.11.16 04:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Cashus In fact, my second choice to missioning was to train up for a stealth bomber and go get killed a few dozen times learning pvp, so I think that's the way to go. I'm about 60 days of SP, give or take, away from a fully t2 fitted Manticore (a highly rated battleclinic fitting at that). That will be fun I'm sure and at only about 50 mil a pop I won't lose my marbles when I die. 50 mil per SB is a little high, there are cheaper ways to fit a SB with good effectiveness. Losing SBs isn't uncommon, they're a glass cannon and pop rather easily. ______________________ Agony Unleashed is proud to support TeaDaze for CSM
NobodyHolme Gallente Deep Core Fishing	Posted - 2009.11.16 04:54:00 - [38] Might i suggest missioning in 1.0 in a CNR with jump clone in nullsec with your buddies? both worlds, best of. Because I can.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.16 10:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Jessica Fyers Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. No, Eve is set in semi-lawless space with frontier justice. Concord punish but do not protect. Suicide ganking is a very important part of the game, it enforces the sense of threat that is essential to the Eve gameplay experience. Hi-sec is not safe sec it's just SAFER sec. I'd love to see a un-docking animation at every station, as you press undock, you see your ship slide toward the exit and above you in hundred foot tall letters, 'Don't undock what you can't afford to loose' It is the Eve mantra. While your points are valid, i think the ways are not. I think things are reversed on waht woudl be the best setup. Imposign your wrath and damaging someoen you need or really want to damage should be easier, but should be costier. I think concord response times should be WORSENED.. by a LOT! But on other hand insurance should not be given to the suicide gankers. Suicide ganking shoudl be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost " i am bored, lets ruin somebody's day"
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Seishi Maru Suicide ganking should be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost "I am bored, lets ruin somebody's day" Thing is Seishi, people don't get suicide ganked repeatedly (unless they're stupid) because after it's happened a few times they'll learn the sort of ships that might be suspect and they'll learn how to protect themselves from attack or take the fight to the enemy. And that is the key fact, they have to learn to protect themselves and this can be a harsh lesson. But that is the Eve experience and it's why I love this game more than any other I've ever played. There is risk and consequence involved and danger as real as you can get it in a computer game. This is a visceral experience where your nerves will be frayed and your temper tested, some will fail but those with the gumption to stick it out will reap the rewards. Suicide ganking is tacitly supported by CCP through the insurance mechanics because they want no player to be able to be or feel completely safe. They also want to encourage all players to take part in the most rewarding aspects of the game i.e. co-operative PVP combat. You discover the heart and soul of this game when you start to fight back.

Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:30:00 - [41] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Seishi Maru Suicide ganking should be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost "I am bored, lets ruin somebody's day" Thing is Seishi, people don't get suicide ganked repeatedly (unless they're stupid) because after it's happened a few times they'll learn the sort of ships that might be suspect and they'll learn how to protect themselves from attack or take the fight to the enemy. And that is the key fact, they have to learn to protect themselves and this can be a harsh lesson. But that is the Eve experience and it's why I love this game more than any other I've ever played. There is risk and consequence involved and danger as real as you can get it in a computer game. This is a visceral experience where your nerves will be frayed and your temper tested, some will fail but those with the gumption to stick it out will reap the rewards. Suicide ganking is tacitly supported by CCP through the insurance mechanics because they want no player to be able to be or feel completely safe. They also want to encourage all players to take part in the most rewarding aspects of the game i.e. co-operative PVP combat. You discover the heart and soul of this game when you start to fight back. but the poitn remaisn that the no cost suicide ganking creates situatiosn like the OP. Where really, using navy vessels becomes nearly impossible in some systems. Because you have ZERO cost, except gettign drunk with a few friends to ruin someone. Everythign in game shoudl have REAL consequences. EVERYTHIGN.. including suicide ganking.
Jin Turbo Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.16 17:25:00 - [42] Originally by: Seishi Maru but the poitn remaisn that the no cost suicide ganking creates situatiosn like the OP. Where really, using navy vessels becomes nearly impossible in some systems. Because you have ZERO cost, except gettign drunk with a few friends to ruin someone. Everythign in game shoudl have REAL consequences. EVERYTHIGN.. including suicide ganking. The suicide gank squad will argue up and down that there should be no consequences for them. Game mechanics aside, why would any insurance company pay out to someone who essentially destroys their own stuff? Or at the very least, why pay out more than once? Why insure them a second time? Why not up the rates for those who require pay outs more often? Why not lower insurance rates for people who rarely get blown up? Insurance is currently a one size fits all. The system probably honestly needs to be looked at and overhauled. Rates for T2 ships, non-payment clauses, etc. Changing anything in the game requires real time and money, so I doubt we'll see anything (Not to mention admitting that it wasn't totally 100% bulletproof perfect to begin with). Working as intended. kkthxbye.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.16 17:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Jin Turbo Originally by: Seishi Maru but the poitn remaisn that the no cost suicide ganking creates situatiosn like the OP. Where really, using navy vessels becomes nearly impossible in some systems. Because you have ZERO cost, except gettign drunk with a few friends to ruin someone. Everythign in game shoudl have REAL consequences. EVERYTHIGN.. including suicide ganking. The suicide gank squad will argue up and down that there should be no consequences for them. Game mechanics aside, why would any insurance company pay out to someone who essentially destroys their own stuff? Or at the very least, why pay out more than once? Why insure them a second time? Why not up the rates for those who require pay outs more often? Why not lower insurance rates for people who rarely get blown up? Insurance is currently a one size fits all. The system probably honestly needs to be looked at and overhauled. Rates for T2 ships, non-payment clauses, etc. Changing anything in the game requires real time and money, so I doubt we'll see anything (Not to mention admitting that it wasn't totally 100% bulletproof perfect to begin with). Working as intended. kkthxbye. I do support that suicide ganking shoulg have no insurance payout. Because any actions should have consequences. But at same time I think concord is TOO fast and powerful nowadays. On my eyes 3-4 battleships in gank mode shoudl have tiem to kill a batteship in 0.5. But shoudl get no isk from insurance
Lab Ratorius	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:13:00 - [44] Originally by: Jessica Fyers Edited by: Jessica Fyers on 14/11/2009 15:36:58 Until such time as CCP realizes that the insurance system is broken .. Easy solution? Remove insurance payout from CONCORD kills. Also some Concord escort/tailing for frequent offenders would put some balance on this thing.. at least around gates/stations
James Tritanius	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:19:00 - [45] Edited by: James Tritanius on 16/11/2009 19:19:26 Don't worry, highsec CNR ganks don't happen too often. Move to a 0.7+ system and I can almost guarantee it won't happen again.
Jhoran Venn SPORADIC MOVEMENT Cult of War	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:31:00 - [46] Personally.. Given their large price tag, I think faction ships are, on the whole, a big ** for what they actually give you. That said, some of them are very impressive - those that have had the testicular fortitude to bring them in a fight (have the skills and who know how to fit them!) in lowsec or nullsec. A particular Nightmare springs to mind.. Tanking a ridiculous amount of DPS, and thumbing its nose at us before disengaging. And yeah, Eve is a horrible place. Full of people who just want to chalk up another skull on the side of their **pit. Any way they can do it and get away with it, they will. Some of them are very, very skilled at it. But if you adopt certain methods, you can certainly limit your exposure to them. Or at least, limit your chances. Do vary your route. Do vary your areas of play. Do scout systems before you enter them with your all-singing-all-dancing best ship ever. Write down peoples names you remember. Do hit that planet at 100, and then bounce to the gate, or back to the previous gate and backpedal if you think someone is tailing you. Do change the stations where you keep your ships, and where you buy the fittings (particularly if you just fly in, buy them, fit them and go). Maybe buy them in a frigate, and then fly to the station where your gold-plated high-roller is from there. These are all just small ways you can avoid the interest of those who would like to deprive you of what you have. In Eve, if you think you're safe, you're not. You're just having a lucky day. You have to be a tricky mofo to get by in this world. Be innovative and unpredictable. And please.. If you do get ganked, just leave. Go about your business rebuilding your pride. Don't private convo people. Don't smack talk in local. If you come back in a noobship and whine at the people who killed you, expect to be killed again. I'd go GCC for that any day. -- Jhoran.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:48:00 - [47] Jhoran, your post is accurate, eloquent and informative. +1 from me. The wisdom is there if you choose to listen to it folks..........
God GirlFriend	Posted - 2009.11.17 00:58:00 - [48] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Jhoran, your post is accurate, eloquent and informative. +1 from me. The wisdom is there if you choose to listen to it folks.......... and stil the point remaisn.. all those words are valid upon the other side as well. Suicide gankers are basically SAFE in game. Since they are sure to have basically no real consequence. CArebears shoudl nto be safe.. neither should suicide gankers. Maybe something else instead of insurance.. like staying free for all for 48 hours? But MUST be some REAL consequence! Carebears shoudl all be in danger.. but at a price!
Yarinor Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:33:00 - [49] Originally by: Kuluskitur Vote for Z0D for CSM Nerf suicide ganking ??? Profit! Except suicide ganking is a good thing!
Titan Pilot Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.11.17 11:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Cashus Edited by: Cashus on 14/11/2009 07:59:45 Ok, so I got my shiny new CNR ganked in .5 by the goons. I'm not QQing over it, well not any more at least. It was a harsh reality check and it actually got me thinking long and hard about how I can avoid the same thing happening to me again. Any thoughts? Any advice on how to deal with suicide gankers? 1. Move to a less populated system and suck up the loss in isk/hr 2. Train your alt to fly logistics and dual box. Keep him very close and ready to rep at moments notice. 3. If you think Empire living is tough, 0.0 will make you emorage quit. Mission running out here is not easy. 4. Train to fly a Domi and forget the above advice and fly whenever, wherever. 5. You have 2.7m SP

Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.17 13:50:00 - [51] Edited by: Dr Lebroi on 17/11/2009 13:51:07 Originally by: God GirlFriend and stil the point remaisn.. all those words are valid upon the other side as well. Suicide gankers are basically SAFE in game. Since they are sure to have basically no real consequence. CArebears shoudl nto be safe.. neither should suicide gankers. Quote: War deccing has been kept cheap to allow you to get your revenge if you've got the guts. War dec the gankers and go after them. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can't do anything in response. RVB have been taking groups of 10-15 noobs into low sec in frigates and cruisers and ganking loads of stuff. Check out this link to a battle report. The cruiser and frig group took down a dominix, a raven and a tempest for the loss of only one thorax. They also accounted for a HAC and two hurricanes the same night. It is possible to be very effective with limited skills and equipment if you band together and organise yourselves. Have a go, loosing cheaply fit frigs and cruisers is a lot cheaper than loosing industrials. http://redfed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4895076
Dandy Lyon	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Originally by: Seishi Maru They also want to encourage all players to take part in the most rewarding aspects of the game i.e. co-operative PVP combat. You discover the heart and soul of this game when you start to fight back. I keep hearing this statement made, and I gotta say it's garbage. I've been to 0.0, I've lived in 0.0. If PVP was all eve had to offer, I wouldn't be playing any more. What may be rewarding to you, is torture to others. PVP is NOT endgame for me. I enjoy building an empire, and collecting computer pixles. That is the endgame for me. PVP is simply a nessisary evil. Don't get me wrong, I think PVP is important. It is that thing that makes my pixle collecting and empire building a challenge. If I never had to worry about somebody that wanted to take my hard work away from me, the challenge would be gone. The great part of EVE is it can attract so many different play styles and personalities. I'm a prime example of that. I play nearly solo in a game designed for team work, and that's the way I like it! Don't tell me I have to PVP in blobs to play the game properly.
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.11.17 18:18:00 - [53] Ok, Dandy, that's fair enough, I'm not a **** and whatever people enjoy doing with their time is valid if it makes them happy. However, I would say that for the majority of people, life is more rewarding if they interact with other human beings as we are hard wired to be sociable, and have evolved as, social creatures. I know that some people mine in groups and mission together but I do find the idea of playing Eve as a solo game a bit puzzling but it takes all sorts of people to make an interesting world and, as you correctly point out, this is true of the Eve universe just as it is true of the real world. Perhaps the only difference is that the Eve universe has been deliberately created to reward group play. The majority of the programming effort has gone into the whole PVP experience, quite rightly in my opinion as it is where the game really shines above any other.
Lithium Sea GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.18 01:58:00 - [54] If you would like convo me in game and we can talk about protection on any future CNR. Honestly if the easiest way to avoid the problem your having.
fatherted1989 Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2009.11.18 03:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Toxif Edited by: Toxif on 15/11/2009 04:43:26 Srs advice: First, avoid missioning in lowsec until you've at least spent a few months there PvPing so you have a better understanding of how pirates and gankers work. The first and only time I ever accepted a mission in lowsec (lvl 2 mission), I was scanned down and blown out of the water. Solution: fly your CNR, but run missions in highsec. There, your only worry is ninja salvaging, and that can be solved by recruiting a salvager to follow your around =) Second, don't listen to the elitists who say you're not "allowed" to run lvl 4s in a BS with only 2.7m sp. If you are able to do it, by all means, go for it. They're just ****ed you're making money they could only have dreamed about when they had 2.7m sp. I have 7m and access to lvl 4s, and the only reason I'm not running them yet is because I can't afford a Raven - my Drake is tearing through lvl 3s, though it doesn't have the DPS for lvl 4s. Good luck, and fly safe =) 1) 0.5 is highsec 2)2.7w/e mil SP is not enough to competently fly a CNR. I get what the OP is getting at, and i semi-agree with him.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.18 13:55:00 - [56] Originally by: Seishi Maru I think things are reversed on waht woudl be the best setup. Imposign your wrath and damaging someoen you need or really want to damage should be easier, but should be costier. I think concord response times should be WORSENED.. by a LOT! But on other hand insurance should not be given to the suicide gankers. Suicide ganking shoudl be a mechanism for revenge and intentional planned damage dealing, not some zero cost " i am bored, lets ruin somebody's day" This. Suicide ganking should be possible, but not profitable. If you want to pay isk for an attempt to get back at someone, it should be possible. The problem with suicide ganking was not the occasional revenge gank, the problem was that it was becoming a profitable business. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Dr Lebroi Edited by: Dr Lebroi on 17/11/2009 13:51:07 Originally by: God GirlFriend and stil the point remaisn.. all those words are valid upon the other side as well. Suicide gankers are basically SAFE in game. Since they are sure to have basically no real consequence. CArebears shoudl nto be safe.. neither should suicide gankers. Quote: War deccing has been kept cheap to allow you to get your revenge if you've got the guts. War dec the gankers and go after them. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can't do anything in response. RVB have been taking groups of 10-15 noobs into low sec in frigates and cruisers and ganking loads of stuff. Check out this link to a battle report. The cruiser and frig group took down a dominix, a raven and a tempest for the loss of only one thorax. They also accounted for a HAC and two hurricanes the same night. It is possible to be very effective with limited skills and equipment if you band together and organise yourselves. Have a go, loosing cheaply fit frigs and cruisers is a lot cheaper than loosing industrials. http://redfed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4895076 due to insurance.. why bother with wardec? Why not just suicide gank them as ell? At end this woudl result in whole game becoming a stupid suicide gank fest. NO. suicide gankign should have ZERO return on insurance. ZERO nada. But concord shoudl have near ZERO chance of avoiding it (just punishing it) on anywhere not 1.0 security.
Brunaburh	Posted - 2009.11.18 21:59:00 - [58] Keeping with the second thread in this thread, suicide ganking may be a broken mechanic as far as insurance payouts, as is the (also mentioned) self-destruct when insurance is running out mechanic. Before all you ISK-hooring suicide gankers come and shoot me (I'm in hisec, so it's right up your playstyle), here's my logic. Insurance companies (in RL) will pay out on "it's your fault" actions, but there is a penalty of increased cost of insurance to at-fault users. That is a RL mechanic that is probably too intensive for EVE, but the closest to ideal change in insurance fraud in EVE. Because let's face it, suicide ganking and self-destruct for insurance payouts are exactly that - insurance fraud. You can still get insured in RL when you commit insurance fraud, but you pay so much more for the same coverage that it becomes counter-productive to act in that way. Should CCP kill insurance for suicide gankers and self-imploders? I don't think so, but a system in which suicide ganking has penalties (just like podding players in empire) may be an appropriate option...
Floating Lemming	Posted - 2009.11.19 10:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Timmy theButcher 1. He was in highsec. 2. Nobody said he wasn't allowed to do whatever he wants. 3. Discouraging someone with 2.7 mill SP to run missions in a poorly fitted CNR in 0.5 isn't elitist, it's common sense and sound advice. I call bullcrap , the extra launcher slot and added shieldstrenght allows a lowskilled characters to do L4s he wouldnt be able to complete in a normal raven. I know I did. Not warping out the moment he saw another battleship in his mission however is a rather stupid act.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.11.19 11:28:00 - [60] This is acceptable game play. Brought to you by the same people who are about to rip the guts out of 0.0. The Devs know what's best for this game or CCP wouldn't be paying them so much money. Right?



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