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Arik VanClaw
Helljumpers
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:18:00 -
[1]
Wow, is it really that bad in England these days? That common sense takes a back seat to government bureaucracy?
Former soldier going to jail for "doing his duty"
Real scary thought, these kinds of ridculous convictions are becoming more frequent. And it's not just the Brits. Take a look at some of the ludicrous things being pulled in the US these days.
*CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT*
How much longer till George Orwell's 1984 becomes a reality. Maybe we'll call it 2024, 2044? World is heading that way. I'll sure miss having personal freedoms, how about you?
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:25:00 -
[2]
This is behond absurd... ------------------------------------------
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 15:41:00 -
[3]
Sadly this is not the worst I have seen. It seems that the only people going to prison these days are the good guys while the little chave with 90 convictions for muggings gets a 91st try to get it right..
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Emil Erlenmeyer
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:06:00 -
[4]
That **** is just wrong.
Introduce capital punishment for red-tapists plz.
Originally by: Foodpimp They use a coffee filter, that explains everything you need to know really
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Xen Gin
Silurian Operations
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:26:00 -
[5]
Yeah... Only two reported news sources and one seems to just be copying it as an anti-government shtick.
## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ## |
Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Arik VanClaw Wow, is it really that bad in England these days? That common sense takes a back seat to government bureaucracy?
Uhm, there is going to be a LOT more to it than that.
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
2) Why did he not mention the firearm on the initial phone call?
3) Possession of a firearm is a strict liability offense - there is no defense of public interest in the legislation.
4) He found a firearm and picked it up? What a ****ing idiot. With no way of knowing where it came from or what crimes it may have been used for, there is NO WAY that I would want my fingerprints all over it or for me to have any connection to it whatsoever.
The smart thing to do would be to call the police and TELL THEM what you found and then let THEM come and dispose of it.
I accept he may have been acting with the best of intentions, but I'm afraid that the law does not recognise good intentions and before anyone goes on about "how bad" things are here or how much liberty has been lost etc etc, the law has always been this way even before any terror witch hunts.
It sucks what happened to him, but he was a ****ing idiot to think he could just walk into a police station with a firearm and hand it in.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:00:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 18/11/2009 17:01:47
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Arik VanClaw Wow, is it really that bad in England these days? That common sense takes a back seat to government bureaucracy?
Uhm, there is going to be a LOT more to it than that.
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
2) Why did he not mention the firearm on the initial phone call?
3) Possession of a firearm is a strict liability offense - there is no defense of public interest in the legislation.
4) He found a firearm and picked it up? What a ****ing idiot. With no way of knowing where it came from or what crimes it may have been used for, there is NO WAY that I would want my fingerprints all over it or for me to have any connection to it whatsoever.
The smart thing to do would be to call the police and TELL THEM what you found and then let THEM come and dispose of it.
I accept he may have been acting with the best of intentions, but I'm afraid that the law does not recognise good intentions and before anyone goes on about "how bad" things are here or how much liberty has been lost etc etc, the law has always been this way even before any terror witch hunts.
It sucks what happened to him, but he was a ****ing idiot to think he could just walk into a police station with a firearm and hand it in.
It still sounds like a ******ed thing to do. If I found a firearm, the first thing that comes to mind is to put it into a container without getting prints on it and take it to a police station. Calling the police to pick it up would be an option, but it seems like ******ed thing to do to punish a guy just for delivering a firearm he found to the police. Possibly ending up in jail for years for it is just so stupid that it boggles the mind. I don't know how english law is interpreted, but I find it hard to believe this case and decision was an intended consequense of the law.
That said the little I read of the story sounds a bit weird, but there is no way of knowing if there anything odd or shady going on, that warranted them to suspect his story, since the article clearly wants to focus on this particular viewpoint of the case.
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Teetxe
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:02:00 -
[8]
Just wow ... Bye bye common sense. Great way to incourage people to do the right thing
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Drunk Driver
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Arik VanClaw Wow, is it really that bad in England these days? That common sense takes a back seat to government bureaucracy?
Uhm, there is going to be a LOT more to it than that.
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
2) Why did he not mention the firearm on the initial phone call?
3) Possession of a firearm is a strict liability offense - there is no defense of public interest in the legislation.
4) He found a firearm and picked it up? What a ****ing idiot. With no way of knowing where it came from or what crimes it may have been used for, there is NO WAY that I would want my fingerprints all over it or for me to have any connection to it whatsoever.
The smart thing to do would be to call the police and TELL THEM what you found and then let THEM come and dispose of it.
I accept he may have been acting with the best of intentions, but I'm afraid that the law does not recognise good intentions and before anyone goes on about "how bad" things are here or how much liberty has been lost etc etc, the law has always been this way even before any terror witch hunts.
It sucks what happened to him, but he was a ****ing idiot to think he could just walk into a police station with a firearm and hand it in.
Only "good" people should have guns.
Everyone else should obey them.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
I too like to ask for the person in charge sometimes when it comes to serious matters. While he could have talked to another officer I see nothing wrong with his act.
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros 2) Why did he not mention the firearm on the initial phone call?
Probably felt it was inappropriate. Who knows.
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros 3) Possession of a firearm is a strict liability offense - there is no defense of public interest in the legislation.
I understand you guys are afraid of firearms and want nothing to do with them. But the fact that a man who served for your country, most likely fought in battle for your country, does the right thing by turning in a gun for your country, gets arrested and faces jail time. If I were him I'd be thinking that when I get out the next gun I find I'm going to use. How many more law abiding people have to go to jail before you see that this law is broken.
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros 4) He found a firearm and picked it up? What a ****ing idiot.
No, he found a black garbage bag and picked it up. The black garbage just ended up having a gun in it.
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros The smart thing to do would be to call the police and TELL THEM what you found and then let THEM come and dispose of it.
Funny that he did call the police, only he brought the gun to them instead of having them get it.
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros I accept he may have been acting with the best of intentions, but I'm afraid that the law does not recognise good intentions
And yet you do not seem to have an issue with this. I wonder if you would sing the same tune when (not if) you commit a good Samaritan crime.
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros and before anyone goes on about "how bad" things are here or how much liberty has been lost etc etc, the law has always been this way even before any terror witch hunts.
The thing is that many of us already knew that Englands laws have been like this for ages, that's why we call you the nanny state (Or ninny state if your talking about the populace). The OP is right, how much longer until we live in George Orwell's 1984? Will you just accept it as always and go about with your government approved daily routine hoping that you do not make a mistake along the way?
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros It sucks what happened to him, but he was a ****ing idiot to think he could just walk into a police station with a firearm and hand it in.
Your view of honest people is astounding.
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Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
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Posted - 2009.11.18 17:57:00 -
[11]
Not mentioned is that he'd just gotten off for attacking a meter maid or something similar. The guy was an ass and asking to come talk to the chief really looks like an attempt to gloat via "doing the right thing." Hardly surprising that he gets charged after handing them the means to get back at him.
Hell, for all we know, the cops put the gun there to bait the dumbass.
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Orion Eridanus
Dark Ashes
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:00:00 -
[12]
Moral of the story: Doing the right thing sets you back in life.
Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
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Feilamya
Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Xen Gin Yeah... Only two reported news sources and one seems to just be copying it as an anti-government shtick.
Wait, Alex Jones wrote about, so it must be true, even if the OP's source smells of corporate-funded think tank lobbyists.
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ReaperOfSly
Gallente Heavens Gate Consortium Distant Drums
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:11:00 -
[14]
Are there any actual reputable news sources covering this? And how many people just find a gun lying around in their garden? UK law leaves many things to be desired, but it's not THAT stupid. ____________________
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Orion Eridanus
Dark Ashes
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:23:00 -
[15]
Dropping a gun in someone's yard is no different from dropping trash in someone else's yard. It just rare because people like holding on to guns, but for some reason don't feel the same way about trash.
Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:26:00 -
[16]
Edited by: baltec1 on 18/11/2009 18:27:04 Found something about this in the surry news paper group however comments on this story have been disabled for legal reasons. Seems that this story origonated from the surry paper.
Nothing on the BBC.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Feilamya
Originally by: Xen Gin Yeah... Only two reported news sources and one seems to just be copying it as an anti-government shtick.
Wait, Alex Jones wrote about, so it must be true, even if the OP's source smells of corporate-funded think tank lobbyists.
Yeah, the guys a conspiracy theorist and pretty much a joke. The thing with conspiracy theorist however is that they make so many claims that every now n then they actually get one right. The unfortunate downside is that the one right claim makes them think that all their theories are correct but that makes it more amusing for the rest of us on the forums. The trick is to see what they say and continue to do the research yourself.
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Brujo Loco
Amarr Brujeria Teologica
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Orion Eridanus Moral of the story: Doing the right thing sets you back in life.
As an Exiled Venezuelan in the Country of Panama, fleeing an oppressive government disguised as a People's Government that slowly crushes any kind of personal liberty in a parody of legal acts for our own good and the welfare of the ¿poor¿, takes away personal lands, properties and businesses for the sake of the ¿country¿ and invokes former heroes of ages long past like Bolivar for his cause at the same time he shelters foreign guerrillas and drug dealers in the territory wich operate with his tacit approval, I realized that doing the ¿Right Thing¿ is indeed wrong, and that the LAW is just a tool that can used for the most nefarious of ends.
To me the moral is that you need to stay clear and very far away from any kind of law enforcement official, judicial process and or people from the government as you can, they all drown in their own pool of misery, corruption, deceit and stupidity and do the things they do shielding themselves behind the LAW to do whatever they please, being it a Country in the far north that speaks english and is extremely oppressive in their laws or a country in the far south that speaks spanish and is extremely oppressive in their laws.
Thats why I ended up in the MIDDLE ...
---
Viva VENEZUELA!!! Archipelago Theory
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Vinsurith Morteth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Arik VanClaw Wow, is it really that bad in England these days? That common sense takes a back seat to government bureaucracy?
Uhm, there is going to be a LOT more to it than that.
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
2) Why did he not mention the firearm on the initial phone call?
3) Possession of a firearm is a strict liability offense - there is no defense of public interest in the legislation.
4) He found a firearm and picked it up? What a ****ing idiot. With no way of knowing where it came from or what crimes it may have been used for, there is NO WAY that I would want my fingerprints all over it or for me to have any connection to it whatsoever.
The smart thing to do would be to call the police and TELL THEM what you found and then let THEM come and dispose of it.
I accept he may have been acting with the best of intentions, but I'm afraid that the law does not recognise good intentions and before anyone goes on about "how bad" things are here or how much liberty has been lost etc etc, the law has always been this way even before any terror witch hunts.
It sucks what happened to him, but he was a ****ing idiot to think he could just walk into a police station with a firearm and hand it in.
In the US we have a policy where you can surrender weapons to your local police departments without getting in trouble. Even if it's your sawed-off shotgun you can say you found it and they will take it. Not sure what kind of policy they have in the UK. I think I would've called and told them what I found before going in but if they have a similar policy then he probably didn't think he was doing anything wrong. Common sense should've been used by the police and the court system. Now they may lose a taxpayer and a vet for something that may not even be true.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:36:00 -
[20]
Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 18/11/2009 19:45:48
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Arik VanClaw Wow, is it really that bad in England these days? That common sense takes a back seat to government bureaucracy?
Uhm, there is going to be a LOT more to it than that.
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
2) Why did he not mention the firearm on the initial phone call?
3) Possession of a firearm is a strict liability offense - there is no defense of public interest in the legislation.
4) He found a firearm and picked it up? What a ****ing idiot. With no way of knowing where it came from or what crimes it may have been used for, there is NO WAY that I would want my fingerprints all over it or for me to have any connection to it whatsoever.
The smart thing to do would be to call the police and TELL THEM what you found and then let THEM come and dispose of it.
I accept he may have been acting with the best of intentions, but I'm afraid that the law does not recognise good intentions and before anyone goes on about "how bad" things are here or how much liberty has been lost etc etc, the law has always been this way even before any terror witch hunts.
It sucks what happened to him, but he was a ****ing idiot to think he could just walk into a police station with a firearm and hand it in.
I can't believe your actually DEFENDING THIS, Oh.My.****ing.God
You know, I once thought England would be a nice place to move to or hell even visit, I figured my ancestors originated there and it would be cool to visit Buckingham Palace and go in that Chunnel thing, see what it would be like to drive on the wrong side of the road, but man, each one of these ridiculous stories I hear about innocent people going to jail over something this trivial (even with your ******ed gun control laws that I . . . . disagree with) just makes me ashamed that even a small fraction of my genes could come from a country that uses the most CCTV in ratio to it's population in the entire world, doesn't allow people to defend themselves w/out fear of going to prison along w/the burglar as a recourse, etc.
EDIT: I wonder, how long before it becomes a criminal offence to squash a bug without an Exterminator Permit or something, or changing the tire on your car without Mechanic Certification, or calling the cops because your neighbors are getting into it becomes Eavsedropping Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
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JordanParey
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:12:00 -
[21]
Regardless of his past transgressions, I seriously doubt that he was doing it so he could "gloat" over doing the "right thing". A LOT of people would do the same thing. Calling the police for something like that is stupid, what a great ****ing way to waste his time. Officers hate it when you do that.
I would like to visit England too, but who knows how long it'll be before you guys start screening tourists for gun ownership before you let them in?
The hilarious part is that you guys complain about laws getting more and more restrictive over there, and you just LET the government take away your only means to overthrow a corrupt gov't in the first place.
I own guns and I'm damned happy to have that right...
(flame suit on, I couldn't care less...)
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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vinsurith Morteth
In the US we have a policy where you can surrender weapons to your local police departments without getting in trouble. Even if it's your sawed-off shotgun you can say you found it and they will take it. Not sure what kind of policy they have in the UK. I think I would've called and told them what I found before going in but if they have a similar policy then he probably didn't think he was doing anything wrong.
There are periodic firearms amnesties, but this never occured during one of them.
Quote: Common sense should've been used by the police and the court system. Now they may lose a taxpayer and a vet for something that may not even be true.
Well, sort of.
As far as the police are concerned the man walked into the police station whilst in posession of a firearm.
As that is a strict liability offense they had no option but to file a report to the Crown Prosection Service (CPS) who then decide if:
a) There is enough evidence to secure a prosecution b) A prosecution would be in the public interest.
The police did the correct thing by filing a report with the CPS (they aren't able to do anything else) but the CPS should not have pressed ahead with the prosecution, which is the astounding part.
Even once it went to court, the Jury could have gone for a jury nullification if they did not agree with the grounds for the prosecution as laid down by law. They would probably have done this has the Judge informed them of this right, although I suspect s/he did not.
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Wild Rho
Amarr Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:58:00 -
[23]
One thing I've learned from reading these types of stories is there's often alot more to it than what's reported.
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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.18 23:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
I too like to ask for the person in charge sometimes when it comes to serious matters. While he could have talked to another officer I see nothing wrong with his act.
The Chief Superintendant is not in charge as such - think of him more like a chief executive.
The person "in charge" would have been the duty sergent at the station.
Any officer there would have been more than capable of handling this.
Quote:
I understand you guys are afraid of firearms and want nothing to do with them. But the fact that a man who served for your country, most likely fought in battle for your country, does the right thing by turning in a gun for your country, gets arrested and faces jail time. If I were him I'd be thinking that when I get out the next gun I find I'm going to use. How many more law abiding people have to go to jail before you see that this law is broken.
The law is not broken.
It's a strict liability offense and the police did what they were duty bound to do.
As I have explained in a previous answer, the CPS are at fault for pressing ahead with the prosecution.
Quote: No, he found a black garbage bag and picked it up. The black garbage just ended up having a gun in it.
Semantics.
Either way he still opened the big and found the gun inside.
The first thing I would do then would be to call the police, not lift a firearm that may have been involved in a crime and put my fingerprints all over it.
That's gross stupidity.
Quote: I wonder if you would sing the same tune when (not if) you commit a good Samaritan crime.
Being a good samaritan would be calling the police and informing them what you have found, not calling them, failing to mention it and then just walking into the police station with it.
The CPS should not have went ahead with the prosecution, but it was his own stupidity that got him into the situation in the first place.
Quote: The OP is right, how much longer until we live in George Orwell's 1984? Will you just accept it as always and go about with your government approved daily routine hoping that you do not make a mistake along the way?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
It is nothing to do with the nanny state or the creeping survailance in the last few years - it's a poor decision by the member of the public and an equally poorer decision from the CPS...
Quote: Your view of honest people is astounding.
It's nothing to do with my view of honest people and everything to do with my view of stupid people.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2009.11.19 00:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
The law is not broken.
It's a strict liability offense and the police did what they were duty bound to do.
As I have explained in a previous answer, the CPS are at fault for pressing ahead with the prosecution.
And you see nothing broken there eh. The man was trying to do the right thing and turn in a dangerous firearm. But his steps weren't Government issued steps, as I'm guessing they didn't send him a pamphlet, and now he's liable to receive 5 years, for removing a firearm off the streets.
Better keep in mind if you find a firearm in a bag in your back yard best toss it over the fence into your neighbors yard and be done with it.
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Sakuraoka
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Posted - 2009.11.19 00:15:00 -
[26]
Just so I'm clear, if I am in England, and see a gun laying around, I should just run away, right? Not disarm it so that anyone can't just walk up and maybe hurt themselves?
And hypothetically, if I have a grudge against someone in England, I can just hide a gun in their jacket, for example, and anonymously tip off the police?
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.19 00:31:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Larkonis TrassIer on 19/11/2009 00:31:05 I think there's more to this story than meets the eye. The fact that he has been found guilty by a jury of his peers might indicate this (although I have my doubts in this day and age).
This country is very rapidly going to the dogs. I am of a mind to stop applying common sense to anything and just go with the flow. It would probably save me from an ulcer or a conviction.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
1) You don't just "ring the Chief Superintendant" and ask if you could "come in for a chat" - that just doesn't happen.
QFT you do not just phone the local police station and ask to speak to the superintendant and get invited around for a cuppa and a chat you need a very good reason so he must have given some excuse which was obviously false because he didnt explain he had a firearm or they would have sent somebody to him.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:22:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Wild Rho One thing I've learned from reading these types of stories is there's often alot more to it than what's reported.
Indeed. Everyone seems to be missing the point where he calls up the chief and asks him can I come over and have a talk then when he shows up he out and plunks a sawed off shotgun on his desk. That had to be some serious pucker factor for a bit for the chief and probably where most of the legal action has come from. Even in the US where this type of thing is encouraged there is a procedure and specific location to turn one in. Hell he would not have got past the front door of any US station anyways due to the detectors at every entrance. So not saying the bloke deserves time for his actions but tbh all he had to do was tell the chief hey I found a sawed off shotgun in my yard can you send an officer to fetch it. Official reprimand yes but not freakin jail time.
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Stitcher
Caldari ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sakuraoka Just so I'm clear, if I am in England, and see a gun laying around, I should just run away, right? Not disarm it so that anyone can't just walk up and maybe hurt themselves?
More usual response would be to call the police straight away and say "I found what appears to be a discarded firearm".
You don't pick it up and take it to the police station in a bag unannounced. Guy was a moron.
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
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