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Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
Ordo Peregrinus
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Posted - 2009.11.20 04:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Lucius Vindictus on 20/11/2009 05:13:30
 Quote:
To an outsider like me, this just stinks of a cover up. No.Mercy have avoided comment on the issue throughout and PIE have since claimed to be 'dealing' with it by sitting on their hands until it goes away. I don't much care if No.Mercy are pirates I don't really care if the Empire wants to use such people to further their own agenda, I will however point out bull **** when I see it.
You are no neutral outsider. It is well known that you and the rest of SF are on a constant war-footing with PIE. It is in your interest to see them slandered. SF and members of the TLF have colourfully and unsuccesfully attemped to discredit PIE on many occasions in the past. I too point out bull**** when I see it and know that people remember such things. That said, I must grudgingly admit that your tone is much more reasonable and respectable than what I've seen come out of SF pilots before. Leave out the insults and people might actually engage in a discussion without it turning into a verbal latrine.
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Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
DAEDALUS X
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.20 05:24:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 20/11/2009 05:24:07
PIE is not to blame
but like all the amarr loyalist groups they are weak to not call down Garst Tyrell and his corp's activities. Weakness and Cowardice is just two more rust nodes blooming on the golden hull.
I do not think we can lay this at PIE's feet but a public statement would have made sense.
Instead actual evidence of bastard behavior is ignored while suposed bastard behavior is used as a war cry. Hypocrite much?
in the end it doesn't matter, No.Mercy has been handled. |
Shalee Lianne
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 06:19:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Katyayani Koriau
Originally by: Garst Tyrell
Perception is reality. If they want to call me a pirate, then I guess im a 'pirate'. A week ago I was the 'Hero of Kamela'! Probably Loyalist of the year! Laurel wreathes and praise.
Weak men called stronger men Pirate Master Garst. But you be PIRATE I BE AMARR PIRATE to! I laugh at stupid petty race slander here.
OOC here. Please don't quote from my in-character journal on an in-character forum. Your character would have no way of knowing that.
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Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.11.20 06:47:00 -
[34]
Originally by: ChipMo
I don't want to become a delegate for Quibec Power, they are after all a cog in the enemy machine. I've posted my observations of them as an entity that any capsuleer can see with their search terminals. Beyond that its not really my place to say any more.
Apparently it seems those who are speaking don't know and those who know aren't speaking, so this is all any of us can say with certainty.
Quote:
The event in question did happen, if you use your terminals "war" tab you can look up a corporations active wars; many capsuleers used this to see the paperwork for themselves at the time. (I saw it myself). You can then search various kill databases for Quibecs losses at the time & you will see their PoS with No.Mercy pilots as the involved parties. - Please, spare us any more of this "it may not have happened" non-sense. It did clearly happen, the only room for debate is in the motives behind the assault.
Which is the difference. If Quebec Power were supporting the Minmatar or Gallente war efforts in a direct fashion then it is raiding enemy resources, something which one shouldn't bat an eye at considering the Empire is renowned for enslaving the conquered populace. If they are neutral corporations, then it is pirating.
Originally by: Chipmo
Things I largely agree with.
Well that's nice.
Originally by: Chipmo
On a personal note Jakiin, I am impressed you ask your questions in public, you appear to have a surprisingly open mind for an Amarrian. I hope you find your truth, and that you aren't too dismayed by it when you do.
The Lord asks us to seek the truth in all things, for His is the Final Truth. Were I to simply assume the best it would be as ignorant as if I always assumed the worst. I tell even the lowliest of my slaves to continually question so that they can understand, I would be doing little good were I to simply allow these things to pass without at least trying to get some answers.
The reality is that if we don't hear anything from PIE or No.Mercy on the subject, then we will in the end have to assume. I don't much like coming to conclusions without evidence to support it, it's not good for anybody.
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Jakiin
Holder Heir of the Kingdom
'Pacifist Reclaimer' |
Sepherim
Amarr
Ordo Quaesitoris
Ordo Magna
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Posted - 2009.11.20 07:35:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Sepherim on 20/11/2009 07:39:53
Originally by: Jakiin
Yes, I thought that might happen with a few who made note of me. Ultimately I decided that all the seeming contradiction would do was to draw attention to the arguments presented, and any who decided to paint the whole topic with only the apparent colour of the title likely weren't worth arguing with in any case.
Sometimes, though, this causes the opposite effect, centering the full discussion on the topic and what it sais, instead of the arguments inside it. And it certainly calls strongly to all those who will just say the predictable arguments such as those related to slavery, the "numerous" previous mistakes of PIE, etc.
It is in the nature of how you ask a question, that an answer of a certain sort will come. Never hesitate to ask, for asking guides us to greater truths, but ask with knowledge of the consequences of what you ask and how you ask it.
And I'm sorry if it sounds like it, I didn't want to lecture you at all. I've just seen too many questions like these get lost under piles of posts of simple insults, complaints, whines and typical words.
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ordo_quaesitorisOrdo Quaesitoris |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 09:34:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/11/2009 09:35:39
Originally by: ChipMo
If PIE openly take responsibility for the diplomacy then they should see it through. If they are not prepared to look into the issue they should never have said they would in the first place.
If we say that we're going to do something, then of course we should. But just because we've not given you an answer does not mean that an answer does not exist. Please point me to where I've said that the results of my enquiries would be made public.
You see, I've always believed that in general diplomatic discussions should be confidential, but clearly SF disagree with me on that.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.20 12:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jakiin
Which is the difference. If Quebec Power were supporting the Minmatar or Gallente war efforts in a direct fashion then it is raiding enemy resources, something which one shouldn't bat an eye at considering the Empire is renowned for enslaving the conquered populace. If they are neutral corporations, then it is pirating.
If that is the case then surely No.Mercy would have been able to clear this mess up the moment the war declaration was signed... Why all the demands for 'evidance' from Quibec power? Why the denials from loyalists, why the silence from No.Mercy? Quebec were an easy target of opportunity that the No.Mercy vultures scavenged because they couldn't front the economic cost of the failing war effort.
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/11/2009 09:35:39
If we say that we're going to do something, then of course we should. But just because we've not given you an answer does not mean that an answer does not exist. Please point me to where I've said that the results of my enquiries would be made public.
You see, I've always believed that in general diplomatic discussions should be confidential, but clearly SF disagree with me on that.
The results, as with most things in life will be visible in space. If you find them 'innocent' or do not bother coming to a conclusion at all nothing will change, you will still fly in No.Mercy fleets, you will still support their propaganda, you will still come to their defense at this summit.
If you somehow get over your Amarrian self-interests and arrive at the truth, true you are not under any obligation to come here and announce it. However it will be visable to anyone who fly's in the same circles as PIE as to weather or not you have taken any meaningful action in your relationship with No.Mercy. So far, you have not.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:18:00 -
[38]
Originally by: ChipMo
PIE's coverup...
And what exactly are we supposed to be covering up?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:43:00 -
[39]
Black media, perhaps the only weapon such heathens feel they can fight against the righteous PIE inc. with an advantage.
I for one find it amusing that the Jakiin found it necessary try and convince his reader on three separate occassions within the same post that there was any failure to be had.
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Theophilas
Amarr
Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.11.20 14:12:00 -
[40]
Who is this Jakiin fellow anyways? He doesn't fight, and yet he's constantly on the IGS stirring up trouble and posting his... opinions on Amarrian culture. Why not spend less time posting walls of text, and more time defending the empire to which you belong?
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Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.11.20 18:02:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Theophilas
Who is this Jakiin fellow anyways? He doesn't fight, and yet he's constantly on the IGS stirring up trouble and posting his... opinions on Amarrian culture. Why not spend less time posting walls of text, and more time defending the empire to which you belong?
Largely because I do not belong the the Empire. I am a subject of the Khanid Kingdom, not a servant of the Amarr Empire. Secondly, because I'm better in the realm of thought and words than I am in the realm of combat. I feel that if I can make any sort of difference at all, it would more likely be here than on the battlefield.
Rest assured, I fully plan on joining one of the 24th corporations sometime in the future, but at the current time I don't feel myself to have the right skill:ISK ratio to sustain myself for too long.
Khanid innovation makes fine ships, but the price is also quite high.
For now you can know me as that annoying little brat that simply won't stand in line like all the good boys and girls. Or the slaver menace, or the noble seeker of truth, or whatever pigeon hole you wish to stick me in. It's your call.
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Black media, perhaps the only weapon such heathens feel they can fight against the righteous PIE inc. with an advantage.
I for one find it amusing that the Jakiin found it necessary try and convince his reader on three separate occassions within the same post that there was any failure to be had.
I see no black media here. Accusations have been made, and without a relatively neutral confirmation or denial of those accusations all of our enemies will assume it another cover up by the Evil Amarr, all of our people will assume it to be more slander, and everyone who is just a loose ally or a neutral observer will have to point out that there's much more in favour of us saying nothing if the accusations are true than there is if they're false.
By leaving this alone we do ourselves damage. Worst case scenario? The allegations are true, and our enemies will have to (grudgingly) admit that we at least keep to our ideals and disown those who don't. Best case scenario? Quebec Power are supporting the TLF/FDU war effort, it was all just raiding enemy resources, and the wheels keep spinning. Except Bloodsoaked Goddess becomes even less credible.
Originally by: Sepherim
Sometimes, though, this causes the opposite effect, centering the full discussion on the topic and what it sais, instead of the arguments inside it. And it certainly calls strongly to all those who will just say the predictable arguments such as those related to slavery, the "numerous" previous mistakes of PIE, etc.
It is in the nature of how you ask a question, that an answer of a certain sort will come. Never hesitate to ask, for asking guides us to greater truths, but ask with knowledge of the consequences of what you ask and how you ask it.
And I'm sorry if it sounds like it, I didn't want to lecture you at all. I've just seen too many questions like these get lost under piles of posts of simple insults, complaints, whines and typical words.
Wise enough words, I'll heed them the next time I do something like this. Hopefully I won't feel the need to, though.
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Jakiin
Holder Heir of the Kingdom
'Pacifist Reclaimer' |
Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.11.20 19:20:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Ralnik on 20/11/2009 19:25:20
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Black media, perhaps the only weapon such heathens feel they can fight against the righteous PIE inc. with an advantage.
I for one find it amusing that the Jakiin found it necessary try and convince his reader on three separate occassions within the same post that there was any failure to be had.
I'm actually glad someone from CVA chimed in on this affair, as I believe the focus on PIE in this issue is a little mis-directed. While PIE might be the so called morale compass of the 24th, they hold no real power to back anything up with in the Militia other than to disqualify Garst from their little best Amarrio awards.
However, it is CVA whom supposedly lays down laws to abide by in Amarr Empire space if you want to gain access to their space. One of those laws is no piracy with in Amarr Empire space, which is clearly an issue here with No.Mercy. What is even more of a focal point, is the fact that No.Mercy and more specifically Garst Tyrell have told their pilots to use CVA space in Providence to grind up their security standings to be able to take part in more of these asset theft operations, in order to help support their "short comings".
Not to mention, Garst specially reminded his pilots to make use of the CVA intel channel while doing this, showing us all that CVA considers them friendly enough to allow in their private intel channels. This lets us once again see, that CVA will turn a blind eye to piracy within Empire space, as long as it's their own broserfs doing it. This all just smacks of the typical Amarr stereotypes of Holier than thou, that they tend to earn on a regular basis.
This is of course failure of PIE, for not publicly denoucing No.Mercy's actions and removing Garst from the running in their best Amarrios Awards and a public failure of CVA for once again turning their head to ignore Empire piracy that goes on by their own broserfs.
Then again there is no big surprise in that...
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lucifers widow
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.11.20 20:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jakiin
Largely because I do not belong the the Empire. I am a subject of the Khanid Kingdom, not a servant of the Amarr Empire. Secondly, because I'm better in the realm of thought and words than I am in the realm of combat.
Looking at the official records you are untested in combat so how do you think that ?
Quote:
I feel that if I can make any sort of difference at all, it would more likely be here than on the battlefield.
But you can do both.
Quote:
Rest assured, I fully plan on joining one of the 24th corporations sometime in the future, but at the current time I don't feel myself to have the right skill:ISK ratio to sustain myself for too long.
Khanid innovation makes fine ships, but the price is also quite high.
Not being skillful enough or not having enough isk is always the excuse people use for not joining up, even though they really really want to, just not right now, in the future though yes, definately will, just not right now........
Quote:
For now you can know me as that annoying little brat that simply won't stand in line like all the good boys and girls. Or the slaver menace, or the noble seeker of truth, or whatever pigeon hole you wish to stick me in. It's your call.
or another of the greedy empire dwelling cowards who have an opinion on something they will never first hand know anything about.
Quote:
Wise enough words, I'll heed them the next time I do something like this. Hopefully I won't feel the need to, though.
Hopefully you won't bother.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 20:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ralnik
This is of course failure of PIE, for not publicly denoucing No.Mercy's actions and removing Garst from the running in their best Amarrios Awards
Why would we denounce No.Mercy when there is essentially no evidence against them?
And have you even looked at the selection criteria for the Amarrian Capsuleer of the Year and some of the other names that have been nominated?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.11.20 20:49:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ralnik
This is of course failure of PIE, for not publicly denoucing No.Mercy's actions and removing Garst from the running in their best Amarrios Awards
Why would we denounce No.Mercy when there is essentially no evidence against them?
And have you even looked at the selection criteria for the Amarrian Capsuleer of the Year and some of the other names that have been nominated?
There is plenty of evidence against him YOU just choose to ignore it. The POS KM's were posted. screen shots from No.Mercy's private forum showing Garsts own words on this subject have been posted. What else do you require for proof?
"Nothing", of course in the word of the day, because there is nothing that can be posted as proof that you will accept as proof because you have chosen to turn a blind eye to this in hopes it is forgotten. You of course know what he did and just choose to play dumb, which is typical for an Amarrio, but there is one thing that we all know with out certainty and that is Rifters are the best internet spaceships.
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Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
Ordo Peregrinus
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Posted - 2009.11.20 21:31:00 -
[46]
I hope you realise that every time you mention the word AmarrioÖ in vain you will owe Graelyn that much more ISK.
Quote:
internet spaceships
What are those?
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 22:15:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/11/2009 22:18:20
Originally by: Ralnik
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ralnik
This is of course failure of PIE, for not publicly denoucing No.Mercy's actions and removing Garst from the running in their best Amarrios Awards
Why would we denounce No.Mercy when there is essentially no evidence against them?
And have you even looked at the selection criteria for the Amarrian Capsuleer of the Year and some of the other names that have been nominated?
There is plenty of evidence against him YOU just choose to ignore it. The POS KM's were posted. screen shots from No.Mercy's private forum showing Garsts own words on this subject have been posted.
Yes, I've seen the killmails. But what does that prove? It proves that there was fighting. And that's not in doubt. What the debate centres around is why the fighting was happening.
In fact, if you look at the leaked information, you'll find that Garst specifically states there that the declaration against Quebec was not a random one, and was not intended as an act of piracy.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.21 00:43:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 21/11/2009 00:44:24
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Yes, I've seen the killmails. But what does that prove? It proves that there was fighting. And that's not in doubt. What the debate centres around is why the fighting was happening.
I think that is quite clear. Garst needed money and he decided that wardeccing and salvaging the wrecks of Amarrian hisec industrial corps and alliances was the best way to get it.
Quote:
In fact, if you look at the leaked information, you'll find that Garst specifically states there that the declaration against Quebec was not a random one, and was not intended as an act of piracy.
He states he expects a valuable haul and that all members are encouraged to join the attack on a previously neutral industrial corp that was selected because of its vulnerability and likely profits to the action.
One of his own corp mates expresses consternation that he is making "more enemies" and seems to question the motive for the attack.
These facts have been placed in the public record several times but on each occassion the raw text is redacted from the IGS (presumably at the request of No.Mercy).
It comes down to this Rodj Blake. Do you believe that Quebec Industrial alliance is an enemy of the Amarrian empire and has been materially-aiding the Minmatar war effort?
If yes then I'd ask you to produce some substantive proof as to why this is.
If No then I'd ask you why you believe Garst's isk-driven wardec motive to loot their towers isn't simply opportunistic NBSI piracy?
Some people seem to believe that PIE have an "ethical standard" to uphold here and thats why you are being publicly questioned.
I of course expect you to do nothing except wheedle, make excuses, cringe and wriggle and continue justifying whatever piratical deeds need justifying to keep Garst's reputation alive.
(But then I've never had a very high opinion of the "moral compass" of regressive imperialist slavers).
True Knowledge |
Vlad Cetes
Caldari
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.21 00:52:00 -
[49]
The humans blame No. Mercy for being successful, they are jealous of the funds it acquired. It does not matter innocence or guilt. What matters is the outcome.
I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.21 09:39:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/11/2009 09:39:57
So what you're essentially saying Jade is that when somebody is accused of something, it's up to them to prove beyond all doubt that they are innocent.
For a moment I was surprised by this. But then I remembered that you're someone who simultaneously claims to be against the holding of territory and declares that territory-holding entities are amongst your allies, so your thought processes clearly aren't the same as mine.
Consider the following: access was gained to the record of No.Mercy's internal discussions. That would be pretty much everything that they'd talked about since the corporation was founded. Even though No.Mercy are a relatively young corporation, that's going to be a lot of internal debate.
Given this, if No.Mercy were really involved in piracy, don't you think that the evidence for it would have been a little bit more damning?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.21 13:44:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
So what you're essentially saying ...
*Jade cuts off the Amarrian with a gesture silencing his familiar rhetorical conceit*
"What I say I say. I don't accept your reinterpretation. Answer the question or don't, but do not think you can twist the question into one better to your taste."
Quote:
Given this, if No.Mercy were really involved in piracy, don't you think that the evidence for it would have been a little bit more damning?
The evidence was completely damning. Garst Tyrell was seen to rally his corpmates to an attack on a neutral industrial alliance so they could loot their tower for salvaged booty. There is no justification given beyond fiscal motive and his own corp members are unaware of any "righteous" motive - its all about the isk. It takes effort to be as blind to this issue as you are being Rodj so I'll ask you once again.
Do you believe that Quebec Industrial alliance is an enemy of the Amarrian empire and has been materially-aiding the Minmatar war effort?
If yes then I'd ask you to produce some substantive proof as to why this is.
If No then I'd ask you why you believe Garst's isk-driven wardec motive to loot their towers isn't simply opportunistic NBSI piracy?
***
At the moment the evidence of this simple piracy is absolutely clear. The only thing that can "clear it up" is you coming forward with some proof that there was valid political motive for the Quebec wardec beyond simple isk-aquisition from violence against a helpless target.
True Knowledge |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.21 14:26:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/11/2009 14:29:41
Originally by: Jade Constantine
The evidence was completely damning. Garst Tyrell was seen to rally his corpmates to an attack on a neutral industrial alliance so they could loot their tower for salvaged booty. There is no justification given beyond fiscal motive and his own corp members are unaware of any "righteous" motive - its all about the isk. It takes effort to be as blind to this issue as you are being Rodj so I'll ask you once again.
Many PIE officers fund their activites through combat with their enemies. I'm sure that many Star Fraction pilots do likewise. There is nothing wrong with that. And if you look at the leaked data, that is what was being talked about.
You see, the comments pretty much all relate to combat that took place after the conflict had started. From what I can tell, there's not much information regarding No.Mercy's discussions before the conflict.
The issue at hand is not the method by which Garst rallied his troops, but his motive in declaring war.
If I recall correctly the only time piracy is mentioned in the excerpts is when Garst says that if he wanted to become a pirate he'd take the corp into 0.0 and do it there. Now, you may consider that to be damning evidence of piracy, but then I understand that reading comprehension has long been a neglected topic in Federation schools.
Quote:
Do you believe that Quebec Industrial alliance is an enemy of the Amarrian empire and has been materially-aiding the Minmatar war effort?
If yes then I'd ask you to produce some substantive proof as to why this is.
If No then I'd ask you why you believe Garst's isk-driven wardec motive to loot their towers isn't simply opportunistic NBSI piracy?
I don't know anything about this "Quebec Industrial" alliance, but I have had No.Mercy's casus belli against Quebec Power explained to me, and it does make a certain amount of sense.
As I have previously said, I'm not someone who goes public with the details of private diplomatic conversations (unlike SF), and so I shall not be divulging the specifics at this time.
If you still have any questions regarding No.Mercy's reasons for the war, I suggest that you direct them to the senior members of that corp, rather than using your ignorance of the facts of this matter to attempt to continue the long running SF smear campaign against PIE.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.21 14:56:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 21/11/2009 14:56:25
Originally by: Rodj Blake
I don't know anything about this "Quebec Industrial" alliance, but I have had No.Mercy's casus belli against Quebec Power explained to me, and it does make a certain amount of sense.
So do you believe that Quebec Industrial alliance is an enemy of the Amarrian empire and has been materially-aiding the Minmatar war effort?
(its quite a simple question).
Quote:
As I have previously said, I'm not someone who goes public with the details of private diplomatic conversations (unlike SF), and so I shall not be divulging the specifics at this time.
Very convenient. But not very convincing. But I'm not asking you for details of private conversations - I'm asking you a simple question:
Do you believe that Quebec Industrial alliance is an enemy of the Amarrian empire and has been materially-aiding the Minmatar war effort?
Come on! How hard can it be?
True Knowledge |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.21 15:24:00 -
[54]
I have had No.Mercy's casus belli against Quebec Power explained to me, and it does make a certain amount of sense.
As I have previously said, I'm not someone who goes public with the details of private diplomatic conversations (unlike SF), and so I shall not be divulging the specifics at this time.
If you still have any questions regarding No.Mercy's reasons for the war, I suggest that you direct them to the senior members of that corp, rather than using your ignorance of the facts of this matter to attempt to continue the long running SF smear campaign against PIE.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.21 15:49:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
I have had No.Mercy's casus belli against Quebec Power explained to me, and it does make a certain amount of sense.
Well I'm a curious soul so I decided to ask Quebec Power for their opinion a few minutes ago.
The following chatlog is direct from discussion with their stated diplomatic contact grotex at the end of the discussion I asked for and received his permission to reproduce the chatlog on IGS to aid the debate here. I think you'll find his comments quite interesting:
***
---------------------------------------------------------------
Channel ID: -4664945
Channel Name: Private Chat (alone)
Listener: Jade Constantine
Session started: 2009.11.21 15:23:57
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[ 2009.11.21 15:24:07 ] Jade Constantine > Hi there do you have a moment ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:24:09 ] grotex > can i help
[ 2009.11.21 15:24:16 ] grotex > yes
[ 2009.11.21 15:24:19 ] Jade Constantine > possible so I'm curious about something
[ 2009.11.21 15:24:40 ] Jade Constantine > A couple of weeks ago a corporation called No.Mercy wardecced Quebec Power right ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:24:48 ] grotex > right
[ 2009.11.21 15:24:55 ] Jade Constantine > and destroyed one of your offline POS towers right ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:25:04 ] grotex > right
[ 2009.11.21 15:25:12 ] Jade Constantine > do you have any idea why they did it ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:25:19 ] grotex > nope
[ 2009.11.21 15:25:29 ] Jade Constantine > No.Mercy are enemies of ours
[ 2009.11.21 15:25:39 ] grotex > ok
[ 2009.11.21 15:25:49 ] Jade Constantine > they consider themselves to be Amarrian Loyalists serving the Empress Sarum and 24th Crusade
[ 2009.11.21 15:25:59 ] grotex > we tried to know why but with no luck
[ 2009.11.21 15:26:02 ] Jade Constantine > and stand against piracy and attacks on neutrals
[ 2009.11.21 15:26:10 ] Jade Constantine > they declare they are anti pirate
[ 2009.11.21 15:26:23 ] Jade Constantine > and their allies claim they had valid reason to attack Quebec Power
[ 2009.11.21 15:26:41 ] Jade Constantine > I'm just wondering what their reason for war would have been
[ 2009.11.21 15:26:48 ] grotex > they never told us why
[ 2009.11.21 15:26:51 ] Jade Constantine > because I have to admit it looks like simple piracy
[ 2009.11.21 15:27:36 ] Jade Constantine > can you remember the name of their diplomat you spoke to about their attacks on your alliance ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:27:54 ] grotex > wait a min
[ 2009.11.21 15:27:58 ] Jade Constantine > thank you
[ 2009.11.21 15:31:01 ] grotex > Exortius Amarrus > Hello[ 2009.11.10 16:30:19 ] grotex > how can i help[ 2009.11.10 16:30:47 ] Exortius Amarrus > Well for 800 Million ISK I can drop this wardec in about 2 mins[ 2009.11.10 16:31:01 ] Exortius Amarrus > you ha...
[ 2009.11.21 15:31:14 ] grotex > thats the last convo with them
[ 2009.11.21 15:31:23 ] Jade Constantine > that last bit cut off
[ 2009.11.21 15:31:32 ] Jade Constantine > is there any way you can evemail it to me please?
[ 2009.11.21 15:31:47 ] grotex > Exortius Amarrus > Well for 800 Million ISK I can drop this wardec in about 2 mins
[ 2009.11.21 15:31:55 ] grotex > Exortius Amarrus > you have lost another tower last night
[ 2009.11.21 15:32:04 ] grotex > Exortius Amarrus > a frieghter, two assault frigates and a vagabond
[ 2009.11.21 15:32:14 ] grotex > Exortius Amarrus > how long do oyu want to continue this?[ 2009.11.10 16:31:42 ] grotex > we didnt want those ship
[ 2009.11.21 15:32:42 ] grotex > grotex > we wont pay you
[ 2009.11.21 15:32:54 ] grotex > 24h later the war was off
[ 2009.11.21 15:33:01 ] Jade Constantine > so basically it sounds like they were trying to ransom you ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:33:07 ] grotex > yep
[ 2009.11.21 15:33:25 ] Jade Constantine > it seems quite clear really
[ 2009.11.21 15:33:27 ] grotex > the war lat 4 days total
[ 2009.11.21 15:33:52 ] grotex > last
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.11.21 15:50:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 21/11/2009 15:55:18
[ 2009.11.21 15:34:21 ] Jade Constantine > there is currently a big debate about this going on the IGS (Intergalactic Summit) where some of No.Mercy allies in the Amarrian militia are claiming this wasn't an act of piracy and that No.Mercy had a valid reason for war
[ 2009.11.21 15:34:37 ] Jade Constantine > would you be interested in coming there and telling your side of the story ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:36:58 ] grotex > not really
[ 2009.11.21 15:37:16 ] Jade Constantine > okay
[ 2009.11.21 15:37:30 ] Jade Constantine > would you mind if I presented the case there?
[ 2009.11.21 15:38:00 ] Jade Constantine > I just don't like these guys claiming to be anti pirate while pirating neutral alliances
[ 2009.11.21 15:38:05 ] Jade Constantine > I consider it quite dishonest
[ 2009.11.21 15:38:44 ] grotex > they should talk not us
[ 2009.11.21 15:38:54 ] Jade Constantine > yeah I'm challenging them at the moment
[ 2009.11.21 15:39:19 ] Jade Constantine > for example - would you give me permission to use this chat log there and tell the truth about the incident ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:39:24 ] grotex > they claim something that we have no way to prouve or disprouve
[ 2009.11.21 15:39:32 ] Jade Constantine > what do they claim ?
[ 2009.11.21 15:39:53 ] grotex > that they had a reason to wardec us
[ 2009.11.21 15:40:08 ] Jade Constantine > and they never told you the reason?
[ 2009.11.21 15:40:15 ] grotex > nope
[ 2009.11.21 15:40:26 ] grotex > many of us tried
[ 2009.11.21 15:40:31 ] Jade Constantine > can I post this chatlog on the thread discussing this war please?
[ 2009.11.21 15:40:43 ] Jade Constantine > its important people know the truth
[ 2009.11.21 15:41:29 ] grotex > yes go ahead
[ 2009.11.21 15:41:35 ] Jade Constantine > thank you
[ 2009.11.21 15:42:01 ] Jade Constantine > I can't promise it'll help them apologise or pay for damages or anything - but it will at least show the public what No.mercy represent
[ 2009.11.21 15:42:07 ] Jade Constantine > and if they wardec you again
[ 2009.11.21 15:42:10 ] Jade Constantine > please let me know
[ 2009.11.21 15:42:23 ] Jade Constantine > they have enemies in space who will be pleased to mess up their operations
[ 2009.11.21 15:42:35 ] grotex > ok
[ 2009.11.21 15:42:53 ] Jade Constantine > okay Grotex, thank you for your time and good luck with your alliance
[ 2009.11.21 15:43:05 ] grotex > are you gonna be talking of this in eve forum
[ 2009.11.21 15:43:20 ] Jade Constantine > yep the Eve Online IGS (Intergalactic summit)
[ 2009.11.21 15:43:21 ] grotex > can i get a link plz
[ 2009.11.21 15:43:42 ] Jade Constantine > http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1216712
[ 2009.11.21 15:43:45 ] grotex > okay thanks
[ 2009.11.21 15:43:53 ] Jade Constantine > this is one of the threads discussing the matter
[ 2009.11.21 15:44:08 ] Jade Constantine > I'll link you to the new post by evemail when I make it
[ 2009.11.21 15:44:13 ] Jade Constantine > all the best
[ 2009.11.21 15:44:31 ] grotex > ty fly safe
***
So Rodj Blake. We have a neutral industrial alliance being wardecced by No.Mercy. We have all seen No.Mercy internal forum discussions where Garst Tyrell speaks about the need for isk-raising and the profit motive of the wardec and talks about the "booty" he hopes to gain the aggression against these neutrals.
Now we have seen his officer, caught in the act of ransoming the wardec targets for the sum of 800m isk as brazenly-as-you-like.
Quote:
Exortius Amarrus > Well for 800 Million ISK I can drop this wardec in about 2 mins
I'm having difficulty seeing PIE Inc's position now as anything other than appeasing a more powerful amarrian corporation and biting your lips on a very obvious and blatant act of piracy against neutrals who have no idea why war was declared except for an attempt to ransom them of their possessions and isk.
Quebec Power have no idea why this war was declared.
What are we supposed to believe?
True Knowledge |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.11.21 16:09:00 -
[57]
The apparent issue of a ransom demand, if true, does indeed alter the situation.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.11.21 16:13:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The apparent issue of a ransom demand, if true, does indeed alter the situation.
Well I didn't know about it myself until I contacted the Quebec Power diplomat so I'd suggest you follow up yourself and reach an informed decision. Perhaps No.Mercy were less than generous with the truth when you contacted them privately before?
Best these things all come out really.
True Knowledge |
Jakiin
|
Posted - 2009.11.21 20:41:00 -
[59]
You know, Ms. Constatine, as I've said before I generally don't like to reply to your ideas, nevermind directly speak with you due to a number of factors (Which you will undoubtedly spin as me being ignorant, confused, etc. etc.), but I have to ask this.
The whole debate is centered on one idea: Whether or not Quebec Power were aiding the TLF. So if you'd asked "Has QP ever supported or aided the Minmatar FW forces?" and they'd said "No", then it would have ended the debate in your favour.
Of course if they'd said "Yes", then it would have ended the debate in N.M's favour, so it's perfectly understandable why you didn't ask.
However I will have to thank you. Wherever you go, a ****storm follows so it's nice to see this topic won't be forgotten any time soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jakiin
Holder Heir of the Kingdom
'Pacifist Reclaimer' |
ChipMo
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.11.21 21:22:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Jakiin
The whole debate is centered on one idea: Whether or not Quebec Power were aiding the TLF. So if you'd asked "Has QP ever supported or aided the Minmatar FW forces?" and they'd said "No", then it would have ended the debate in your favour.
Why don't you just ask this grotex chap yourself?
Whatever we say we will be accused of manipulating the truth or some such crap. The Star Fraction - Moral compass for the 24th Crusade... *ChipMo laughs ... bizarre.
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