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Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.23 18:01:00 - [1] Edited by: Moon Kitten on 23/11/2009 18:05:07 The Problem: Anomalies that spawn are a random level between level 1 and whatever you have upgraded it to(4 for us on the test server). Right now with the level 4 pirate detection array it spawns level 1, 2, 3 and level 4 anomalies. Level 1 anomalies have cruisers and frigates in them. That's crap money. That's not what people expect from a level 4 upgraded ratting system with anomalies. They expect level 4 anomalies from a level 4 system. If we compare this to missions it becomes apparent how stupid you are CCP. When people run level 4 missions they don't get a random mission that's between level 1 and level 4. They get a level 4 mission when they talk to a level 4 agent. Why should this infrastructure 0.0 upgraded system that requires more effort be worse and more unreliable than a system that requires less effort(missions)? That does not make sense CCP! Please start making sense. But, but, but the level 1 missions are for newbies! If we didn't want level 4 anomalies and only level 1 or level 2 or 3 anomalies we wouldn't have installed the level 4 upgrade. If we wanted level 2 anomalies so newbies could run them we would not have upgraded the system past level 2. We would have kept it at level 2, or level 1. The Solution: Only spawn the highest level anomalies. If I go to a Ford dealership and pay for a Ford GT40 there's not a 20% chance that I get a freakin Ford Model T or a Ford Focus. I get a Ford GT40. CCP, Stop ripping us off!
Peryner University of Caille	Posted - 2009.11.23 18:32:00 - [2] remember, ccp is trying to introduce the idea of level 4 missions not being the most profitable part of eve slowly.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.23 18:36:00 - [3] Originally by: Peryner remember, ccp is trying to introduce the idea of level 4 missions not being the most profitable part of eve slowly. Intentionally crippling their content in order placate empire mission runners seems illogical when there's r64(high end moon minerals) moons and 10/10 complexes(exploration) in 0.0 space already. Sorry, that poor excuse doesn't cut it.
Nora Ortega	Posted - 2009.11.23 18:50:00 - [4] QQ more, its amusing when Goonswarm cries. Though to be fair, it should at least spawn at the level and the one below it at the very least. (i.e. lv.4 spawning lv.4 and 3 sites) Maybe even spawning one higher, although rarely.
ep1k Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.23 18:52:00 - [5] Edited by: ep1k on 23/11/2009 18:54:19 The lower quality spawns need to go or this system just falls on its face. Good luck supporting more than 2 people per system when 80% of the anomalies are garbage thats not worth the time to clear them. Its pretty sad the upgrading your space to level 4 which takes a ton of effort, still produces anomalies that can be found in low sec. Low sec quality anomalies in a highly upgraded system are you serious? So far up to level 4 the average income from running these at level 4 compares to belt ratting and is often worse. Its leagues away from being near level 4 income. Going to quote soundwave here Quote: Originally by: CCP Soundwave Are you telling me the number of good sites you have available does not influence how much money you make spending x number of hours doing them? Yes the amount available very much effects how much money you make. Them not being available most of the time makes running anomalies in an upgrade system as pointless as doing it in a non upgraded system. Unnerfing the bounties on these things would also go a long way to making these worth something.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.23 19:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Nora Ortega QQ more, its amusing when Goonswarm cries. You should keep in-game alliance politics out of balancing issues. Originally by: Nora Ortega Though to be fair, it should at least spawn at the level and the one below it at the very least. (i.e. lv.4 spawning lv.4 and 3 sites) Maybe even spawning one higher, although rarely. I agree. That makes sense.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.11.23 19:54:00 - [7] They should just make it like more hi level sites and less low level. So you can still choose but hi levels are in majority.
Pointfive	Posted - 2009.11.23 20:10:00 - [8] Level 2 remove dens Level 3 remove yards Level 4 remove rally points Level 5 remove ports You could also just reduce them dramatically. But as it stands you are at level 4 mainly seeing the lowest quality anomalies. The forlorn/ forsaken hubs are pretty much the cut off point for being worth running. At level 5 you should mainly be seeing those havens and sanctums. Fix the bounties as well.
Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.23 20:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Moon Kitten --stuff-- If we didn't want level 4 anomalies and only level 1 or level 2 or 3 anomalies we wouldn't have installed the level 4 upgrade. If we wanted level 2 anomalies so newbies could run them we would not have upgraded the system past level 2. We would have kept it at level 2, or level 1. --more stuff-- CCP, Stop ripping us off! Agreed. Let space holders choose how they want to upgrade their systems. If, say, 10 null-sec Sov systems are designated for ratting upgrades, 2 - 3 can be allocated to n00bs for frigate and cruiser clearing by player-piloted frigates and cruisers. And they can be the meat shields. Young players must pay their dues, after all. The higher-end upgrades can be in more protected areas and are populated by the pilots who can run the anomalies. Or those who pay high rental fees / taxes. For those upgraded systems to be attractive and thus populated by those who make ISK via PvE, they need to be fertile with fat NPCs. Any other scenario will make the 'pirate' upgrades worthless and sov null-sec will remain relatively deserted compared to high-sec, empire systems. As a holder of both null-sec and high-sec toons, I still see no incentive to move the missioner out into sov space under the dominion patch. I would like to believe in CCP's design expertise, but, ahem, they have much to prove.
Valator Uel Caldari X-pell vae Victis .	Posted - 2009.11.23 20:27:00 - [10] It should follow a bell-shaped probability curve, in other words: level 1 upgrade: 80% level 1, 15% level 2, 5% level 3, 0% level 4, 0% level 5. level 2 upgrade: 15% level 1, 60% level 2, 15% level 3, 5% level 4, 0% level 5. level 3 upgrade: 5% level 1, 15% level 2, 60% level 3, 15% level 4, 5% level 5. level 4 upgrade: 0% level 1, 5% level 2, 15% level 3, 60% level 4, 20% level 5. level 5 upgrade: 0% level 1, 0% level 2, 5% level 3, 15% level 4, 80% level 5. Quote: Aya > Hostile tcf gang coming to h-pa Deva Blackfire > ships? Ralarina > Yes, in ships
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.11.23 21:02:00 - [11] What you are asking is like for all belts to have triple 1.5M BS rats on a continual basis. Far, far to powerful/lucrative to make sense. Each level guarantees the presence of an anomaly and they instantly respawn when cleared .. like belt ratting but with ZERO downtime waiting for spawns. Tie the size of anomalies into system sec. status like belt spawns (although I'd wager it already is) and it is already an insane money maker due to the not having to wait for respawn of the stupid belt rats.
Pointfive	Posted - 2009.11.23 21:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida What you are asking is like for all belts to have triple 1.5M BS rats on a continual basis. Far, far to powerful/lucrative to make sense. Each level guarantees the presence of an anomaly and they instantly respawn when cleared .. like belt ratting but with ZERO downtime waiting for spawns. Tie the size of anomalies into system sec. status like belt spawns (although I'd wager it already is) and it is already an insane money maker due to the not having to wait for respawn of the stupid belt rats. They dont instantly respawn as the same thing, they usually respawn worse. Going to have a hard time getting more than 2 people into a system when the amount of terrible anomalies makes you earn LESS money than ratting. The belt rat comparison is false. You cant chain anomalies. You dont have to spend 20 minutes fighting frigates for 1 mil in bounties either.
Marmios Elite Aeronautic Developer Syndicate Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.23 22:09:00 - [13] Edited by: Marmios on 23/11/2009 22:11:10 goosh wrong thread :D
Nora Ortega	Posted - 2009.11.24 01:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Moon Kitten Originally by: Nora Ortega QQ more, its amusing when Goonswarm cries. You should keep in-game alliance politics out of balancing issues. Originally by: Nora Ortega Though to be fair, it should at least spawn at the level and the one below it at the very least. (i.e. lv.4 spawning lv.4 and 3 sites) Maybe even spawning one higher, although rarely. I agree. That makes sense. There actually wasn't any politics involved in that statement. I just find it interesting when goons complain that something is broken, since a fair amount of what Goons have done in total manipulated a broken feature. Originally by: Valator Uel It should follow a bell-shaped probability curve, in other words: level 1 upgrade: 80% level 1, 15% level 2, 5% level 3, 0% level 4, 0% level 5. level 2 upgrade: 15% level 1, 60% level 2, 15% level 3, 5% level 4, 0% level 5. level 3 upgrade: 5% level 1, 15% level 2, 60% level 3, 15% level 4, 5% level 5. level 4 upgrade: 0% level 1, 5% level 2, 15% level 3, 60% level 4, 20% level 5. level 5 upgrade: 0% level 1, 0% level 2, 5% level 3, 15% level 4, 80% level 5. That would a good way to implement it. Though people might just get it to level 4 and not bother with L5, but that's their own choice.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.24 01:48:00 - [15] http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/3751/EVE-Online-Dominion-Interview.html Quote: How will these changes impact resources in the game? Do you fear a change to the economy? Noah Ward: The biggest change to resources that will happen in Dominion 1.0 is that players owning space in 0.0 space will be able to upgrade the density so that more people can live in a given system. The income however isn't being increased much over what players can get from level 4 mission in the initial point release so we don't expect a massive exodus of people out of empire space or a massive change in the influx of money or resources. We're going to watch how the resource upgrades take hold and iterate on them. The majority of the upgrades revolve around exploration content and we have plans to boost that content, but not until we let players get used to the system and we're sure we're not going to crash the economy. ok, this thread is pretty pointless now feel free to lock it
Pointfive	Posted - 2009.11.24 02:13:00 - [16] Edited by: Pointfive on 24/11/2009 02:13:12 Originally by: Moon Kitten Quote: How will these changes impact resources in the game? Do you fear a change to the economy? Noah Ward: The biggest change to resources that will happen in Dominion 1.0 is that players owning space in 0.0 space will be able to upgrade the density so that more people can live in a given system. The income however isn't being increased much over what players can get from level 4 mission in the initial point release so we don't expect a massive exodus of people out of empire space or a massive change in the influx of money or resources. We're going to watch how the resource upgrades take hold and iterate on them. The majority of the upgrades revolve around exploration content and we have plans to boost that content, but not until we let players get used to the system and we're sure we're not going to crash the economy. And of course by not much over level 4s, they realize it currently isnt even near level 4s. The best way to fix space is to force you to spend money upgrading a system and forced grinding so you make make as much as you do ratting. Cool. 0.0 is such a wonderful place to spend your time.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.11.24 02:19:00 - [17] Tbh I don't think ccp wants all of your alliance leaving empire yet as the servers won't be able to handle the strain so what we will get is a trickle of players hanging in nullsec running the new stuff building up the rates whilst the majority of players stick with their empire isk farming alts. Then over time as stuff is tweaked and you get moar than one server per entire region of nullsec space they will start making the numbers attractive to actually have a large portion of your members sticking around your territory to make isk. So think of the first iteration of infrastructure upgrades as the test bed to let formerly afk moon goo empires get used to actually having a presence in their territory past the normal outpost skeleton crew. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.24 02:31:00 - [18] Edited by: Moon Kitten on 24/11/2009 02:31:40 Just in case you missed it this is what a CCP dude said in an interview: "The income however isn't being increased much over what players can get from level 4 mission in the initial point release so we don't expect a massive exodus of people out of empire space or a massive change in the influx of money or resources." I wouldn't want anyone to plan and prepare their move to 0.0 in vain.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.11.24 02:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Moon Kitten I wouldn't want anyone to plan and prepare their move to 0.0 in vain. If you really think the groups that are going to try for a slice of nullsec are doing it for the potential income then I'm sorry to say things are not going to go very well for the established alliances once they have a few dozen yapping startup alliances in all timezones running around and disrupting everything. A big alliance might be able to handle a few at a time but its going to end up like trying to keep ants out of your house by killing them off one at a time. Also beware the fw corps as scuttlebut has it that a few of the larger corps are going to try something new for Dominion. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.24 03:20:00 - [20] i think its fine as is lower anamolies can still sapwn factional frigs and cruisers. And can be cleared quicker Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Pointfive	Posted - 2009.11.24 04:04:00 - [21] Originally by: HeliosGal i think its fine as is lower anamolies can still sapwn factional frigs and cruisers. And can be cleared quicker Could you seriously stop replying to every thread with terribly written two sentence replies about stuff you have no idea about? Just because they can spawn faction ships doesnt mean they will often at all. They dont. Ratting already spawns these and gives you better income. So why should you be running these crappy anomalies that cost you money to make less? And how do you plan to clear these all out fast? Are you going to change ships and fittings for everyone you run? Hope you have a station nearby and dont mind wasting even more time. Ratting= Waste time pruning spawns, then chain spawns end up with income you can count on for as long as you decide to stay Anoamlies = Waste time clearing spawns, with no guaranteed chance to get anything better. Make worse isk/hour than ratting most of the time Level 4 = Decide to run a mission, make more reliable money than both.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.11.24 04:15:00 - [22] Something else to keep in mind about the current numbers on sisi is that ccp probably intentionally altered the rates to keep testers from getting to much of an upper hand in inside information much like they scramble all the good moon goo positions. They need you to test the functionality of the infrastructure stuff to make sure they don't crash the node when you use them and not get a head start on the inevitable spreadsheets which would be created by early bird testers to get a leg up on the competition. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
Young Dorothy Caldari FoFoFo Monkeys 6oonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.24 04:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Moon Kitten Edited by: Moon Kitten on 23/11/2009 CCP, Stop ripping us off! no one like you, goons deserved it
ep1k Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.24 04:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Zeba Something else to keep in mind about the current numbers on sisi is that ccp probably intentionally altered the rates to keep testers from getting to much of an upper hand in inside information much like they scramble all the good moon goo positions. They need you to test the functionality of the infrastructure stuff to make sure they don't crash the node when you use them and not get a head start on the inevitable spreadsheets which would be created by early bird testers to get a leg up on the competition. Unlikely, none of the content is new. They are the same anomalies that are already available. You kinda have to run the real stuff if you want it tested. The only advantage to running them is knowing which ones arent worth running. Hint: its almost all of them. Most of the information is already posted on these forums, and will be well known within days of launch.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.11.24 04:49:00 - [25] Originally by: ep1k Originally by: Zeba Something else to keep in mind about the current numbers on sisi is that ccp probably intentionally altered the rates to keep testers from getting to much of an upper hand in inside information much like they scramble all the good moon goo positions. They need you to test the functionality of the infrastructure stuff to make sure they don't crash the node when you use them and not get a head start on the inevitable spreadsheets which would be created by early bird testers to get a leg up on the competition. Unlikely, none of the content is new. They are the same anomalies that are already available. You kinda have to run the real stuff if you want it tested. The only advantage to running them is knowing which ones arent worth running. Hint: its almost all of them. Most of the information is already posted on these forums, and will be well known within days of launch. I didn't say anything about the content I'm talking about the rates and variety by which the content is spawned which has a direct effect on the numbers you come up with when trying to figure out exactly how profitable x system with y infrastructure upgraded to z values will be. To simplify the explanation the numbers you see now are not the numbers you will see at launch nor will ccp ever let you know the true numbers leaving it up to players to do the math themselves. So basically all this math being bandied about is pointless as you are crunching the wrong numbers. All that matters in the testing phase atm is that the upgrades don't go buggy when you anchor them then start trying to improve the rates and nothing moar. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
ep1k Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.24 05:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: ep1k Originally by: Zeba Something else to keep in mind about the current numbers on sisi is that ccp probably intentionally altered the rates to keep testers from getting to much of an upper hand in inside information much like they scramble all the good moon goo positions. They need you to test the functionality of the infrastructure stuff to make sure they don't crash the node when you use them and not get a head start on the inevitable spreadsheets which would be created by early bird testers to get a leg up on the competition. Unlikely, none of the content is new. They are the same anomalies that are already available. You kinda have to run the real stuff if you want it tested. The only advantage to running them is knowing which ones arent worth running. Hint: its almost all of them. Most of the information is already posted on these forums, and will be well known within days of launch. I didn't say anything about the content I'm talking about the rates and variety by which the content is spawned which has a direct effect on the numbers you come up with when trying to figure out exactly how profitable x system with y infrastructure upgraded to z values will be. To simplify the explanation the numbers you see now are not the numbers you will see at launch nor will ccp ever let you know the true numbers leaving it up to players to do the math themselves. So basically all this math being bandied about is pointless as you are crunching the wrong numbers. All that matters in the testing phase atm is that the upgrades don't go buggy when you anchor them then start trying to improve the rates and nothing moar. I bet you they will be the exact same come patch day. You are seriously over thinking this. They are randomd spawns, of known encounters. Theres no top secret magic to be done. Its like trying to say knowing how much money you make off belt ratting is going be important, or some top secret info. Its random, and it sucks. Oh and they are buggy. And whole systems routinely stop re spawning.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.11.24 06:10:00 - [27] Originally by: ep1k I bet you they will be the exact same come patch day. Thats always a possibility. Fw mission started out to be even worse than a waste of time and now they are a lulz easy to farm cash cow so give ccp a chance to tweak the numbers. Besides you guys are going to have enough to worry about with just the new way you hold territory so no need to burden you with the extra load of managing infrastructure too for the first few months. Put all that moon goo income to good use. Originally by: ep1k You are seriously over thinking this. They are randomd spawns, of known encounters. Theres no top secret magic to be done. Its like trying to say knowing how much money you make off belt ratting is going be important, or some top secret info. Its random, and it sucks. I'm overthinking this? glances at the op and other poasts Ohhhkaaay.. But yes they are totaly random on sisi because ccp might not want you to know the exact spawn rates and types until d-day. Who knows maybe when you set the infrastructure up on tq for real and get it to the highest levels you won't see any low level stuff and it will all be estamel. Originally by: ep1k Oh and they are buggy. And whole systems routinely stop re spawning. Bugreport it and launch a threadnaught immediately! Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.11.24 09:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Pointfive You obviously havent bothered to try this. It does not seem tied to true sec at all. And if it is id be terrified to see what low true sec looks like. Tried it on SiSi with new system, no I haven't, but hardly relevant if you consider what I said. If it isn't tied to sec then that is the problem. Pirate quality should be tied to security rating, same as is done in belts. Originally by: Pointfive The belt rat comparison is false. You cant chain anomalies. You dont have to spend 20 minutes fighting frigates for 1 mil in bounties either. You must live in the only area of space that doesn't require the belts to be cultivated (ie. repeatedly killing crap spawns for re-roll). Originally by: Pointfive This system was supposed to support more players, and allwo for income at level 4 level. It does not provide this currently. While practising the new probing system I was pulling in 40-50M/hr doing anomalies and chance signatures in low-sec .. you seriously suggesting that doing the same in 0.0 with guaranteed anomalies will be less? The optimal sites are actually the cruiser/BC heavy ones. Fast to clear with good bounties and requires hardly any tanking .. like lvl3 missions but with lvl4 payout With the chance of faction spawn (roughly 1 in 10 during my low-sec escapades) and you really want as many sites as possible and not just ones with biggest rats.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.24 09:07:00 - [29] Security rating will no lnger be tied to true sec status as much thats what ccp wants to even the regions out a bit more. It is reroll so moving away from that to a hyrbid is the best move The BC-HAC ones are actually as u say some of the better ones, Quicker to kill than a BS. Low sec spawn well irrevlant but the rewards are about half of that of 00 which it should be Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Trabber Shir Caldari 5I Incorporated	Posted - 2009.11.24 11:40:00 - [30] I love how these threads usually start with complicated suggestions or suggestions that don't meet the apparent design goals. then within 20 posts (usually closer to 5) it goes completely off topic. Simple suggestion: No more than 50% of anomalies in a system should be below that system's level. Implementation: Every time an anomaly is set to spawn the type of anomaly is rolled and if creating that anomaly will result in over half of the anomalies being under the system level you reroll until a suitable anomaly is selected. Goals achieved: There will be anomalies of all levels so newer players can partake in the null sec PvE content but in highly upgraded systems there will be a bias towards high end content such that there will always be some auto respawning content for the older players who are the primary residents of 0.0 Please punch holes in the idea.

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