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Autopsy of EVE player combat.

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Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.25 12:11:00 - [1] We can read it all the time here, pvp players complaining about carebear that don't want to be shot at/unwilling to lose their ships. But lets face it, EVE pvp combat isn't much fun unless you have lots of isks to spare because someone is sure to lose it's ship. The pew pew crowd here can't enjoy pvp if it doesn't end in a kill, so they load their ship with scrambler and webber, wich make combat very lame because it's all about holding the target immobile and pounding it to death (or bringing enough firepower to blow then in one salvo). Where are the skirmish, clever manouvers and hit and runs? Where are the long hunt for fleeing enemies and the possibility of baiting them into a trap? No, the game is about camping, ganking, blobbing and killing the ones that can't defend themselves... Many people claim the game is about risk vs reward, but risk is just too insane compared to the rewards because pvp fights usually mean do or die, and our ships usually worth a lot more than whatever we could gain taking the risks... My personal solution would be to change some game mechanics in the game. First thing would be to get rid of scrambler and webber (no more holding them down so their take hits from blobs). Change how warping works so there is exploitable delays and/or means to just slow down warping out. Make it possible to pursue ships in warp (like locking on their warp signature and follow them). That way killing would take more efforts and the lack of means to hold down ships would allow more skirmish to occur without losing ships all the time (would still happen, just not 100% of the time you lose the fight). Most battle then would be about controlling the resources and defending fixed structure and slower ships. Let players enjoy battles without making it life or death whenever it occur.
Ishihiro tanaka Amarr Enrave	Posted - 2009.11.25 12:26:00 - [2] If you are referring to gate camps where loads of ships wait out 1 single ship to destroy, you are partially right. Even that single ship has methods of escaping. Cloaking devices, WCS and ECM are amongst them to escape. Also, clever manoeuvring out of a bubble or escaping uncloaking is also one of them. Gangs repeatedly hunt each other through various systems and engagements are fun when the fleets who meet end up being about evenly matched. Even when one is outclassed, a call for support can quickly swing the tide of battle, strategy and tactics there. All in all, combat can be exciting, the choice is to the player to seek it out and to take the risk. .. ... .... .. .... .. .-. --- - .- -. .- -.- .- A bullet, Laser beam or Plasma charge may have your name on it..... A Smartbomb or Shrapnel is adressed "To whom it may concern"...
Ticarus Hellbrandt	Posted - 2009.11.25 12:34:00 - [3] sounds like someone needs to stop being the victim and start being the assailant
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.25 12:41:00 - [4] sounds like a carebear talking about pvp.
Mrs Snowman	Posted - 2009.11.25 12:50:00 - [5] I think they were planning on introducing target-able sub systems... maybe one of those sub systems would be the 'warp core'
Nemiona Minmatar The Phoenix Legion	Posted - 2009.11.25 12:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Foraven We can read it all the time here, pvp players complaining about carebear that don't want to be shot at/unwilling to lose their ships. But lets face it, EVE pvp combat isn't much fun unless you have lots of isks to spare because someone is sure to lose it's ship. The pew pew crowd here can't enjoy pvp if it doesn't end in a kill, so they load their ship with scrambler and webber, wich make combat very lame because it's all about holding the target immobile and pounding it to death (or bringing enough firepower to blow then in one salvo). Where are the skirmish, clever manouvers and hit and runs? Where are the long hunt for fleeing enemies and the possibility of baiting them into a trap? No, the game is about camping, ganking, blobbing and killing the ones that can't defend themselves... Many people claim the game is about risk vs reward, but risk is just too insane compared to the rewards because pvp fights usually mean do or die, and our ships usually worth a lot more than whatever we could gain taking the risks... My personal solution would be to change some game mechanics in the game. First thing would be to get rid of scrambler and webber (no more holding them down so their take hits from blobs). Change how warping works so there is exploitable delays and/or means to just slow down warping out. Make it possible to pursue ships in warp (like locking on their warp signature and follow them). That way killing would take more efforts and the lack of means to hold down ships would allow more skirmish to occur without losing ships all the time (would still happen, just not 100% of the time you lose the fight). Most battle then would be about controlling the resources and defending fixed structure and slower ships. Let players enjoy battles without making it life or death whenever it occur. Dont know what battles you have been in, but baiting works, also hunting down fleeing enemies. Disable webber ? how do you plan on hitting small fast ships ? Lock on warp sig is kinda interesting idea, but the outcome of that is more ganking and I have a feeling thats not what you want. A few weeks ago my old corp spotted a small gatecamp with bubbles. I went in a cloaked ship, moved my way to our primary target and gang warped on top of me. We was outnumbered but still we shot down 4 of the enemies before the rest fled. then 30 minutes later we baited them, we lost our bait ship, but they lost 3 more ships. that was a fun battle and would not be possible without scramblers, cloak and webbers. ------ Here's a phone. Call somebody who cares -Montgomery Burns
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.11.25 12:53:00 - [7] Getting into a situation you can't handle - pilot error being in a ship that can't handle the situation you jumped into - pilot error not having scouts - pilot error not having proper teamwork - pilot error not thinking - pilot error Dying is always a choice, perhaps not a conscious choice but being passive and not put thought into what you're doing is a choice in itself. In short, OP should point finger at himself and come up with a solution within the current game mechanics. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Alliance creation service, also corp updates
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.25 13:52:00 - [8] Get a clue before you post again please. Kazang
Lacranora Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.25 14:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Foraven The pew pew crowd here can't enjoy pvp if it doesn't end in a kill, I can only speak for myself, but WTF have you been doing. I've gotten into a ton of fights that did not end in a kill. No fancy eve-mail for me sure, but it has been fun all the same. Originally by: Mimiru i store my money in a pouch i've sewn into my own skin. Its the only way to be sure. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
NyteTyger Gallente NiteSun Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.25 14:18:00 - [10] If you don't think that people don't use clever tactics, that there aren't running battles through multiple systems, and that baiting doesn't work, then you're not paying attention. __________________________________________ It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other.
Psycho Tripper Abh Empire Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.25 14:29:00 - [11] Awwwww, did somebody just jump into a gate camp?
Julius Rigel	Posted - 2009.11.25 14:44:00 - [12] 4/10 You feature a wall of text, that's always an extra point. You're almost convincing. You're annoying as hell. That gets you two troll points.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.25 15:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Foraven We can read it all the time here, pvp players complaining about carebear that don't want to be shot at/unwilling to lose their ships. But lets face it, EVE pvp combat isn't much fun unless you have lots of isks to spare because someone is sure to lose it's ship. I stopped reading seriously here because what you are saying is trash. You are utterly wrong. I love using cheap ships in PVP. In general my PVP ships cost from 5 to 10 Mill on my cookie T1 ships. I of course use expencive ships now and then, like a Drake, Raven, HAC, T3, Faction. But that do not really make PVP better, just gives me options my T1s don't give me. My best fights have been in my Rifter, my Caracal, my Merlin, my Kestrel, my Moa, my Drake. All T1 and cheap. Also, why fight if you do not plan on killing? Thats wasteing ammo. And for refenrece this do already occur here and there in 0.0. Sometimes fending off a hostile felet by snipers is good enogu hto protect an area. Risk is just too insane? What? Mot of my PVP fight are under my control, and I can dictate if I want to disengage or not. EVE rewards the samrt, and punishes the simple minded man. Your post makes me belive you are a troll, or just a very lame WOW carebear that wandred into a harsh universe that is EVE, where you actully do risk things. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.25 17:34:00 - [14] I guess i should have expected the kind of answers i got. I'm a casual player (mean i have few hours to play each week), and i would want to enjoy more actions without taking huge risks. I'm not a pvp player, i do not enjoy looking out for fights, but i would not mind a few battles now and tend if there was some objectives to do. Low sec is a death sentence unless i have an army to back me up and being unable to manouver around in battle isn't fun (any fun being scrambled and slowed don't to a crawl?). But to all that did not understand yet, the very reason why most EVE players stay in high sec is that the odds of losing it all is too high in low and null sec. I'm not a pvp player, i do not enjoy looking out for fights, but i would not mind a few battles now and then if it was less stressful to do. If pvp survival odds were higher, i'm sure more players would do it. But for that chances of escaping destruction need to be higher...
Oriens Pars	Posted - 2009.11.25 17:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Foraven i would want to enjoy more actions without taking huge risks. Sorry, but you may want to choose another game to play. This game is based on exactly the opposite of what you want.
Zach Donnell Ghost-Busters	Posted - 2009.11.25 17:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Foraven I guess i should have expected the kind of answers i got. I'm a casual player (mean i have few hours to play each week), and i would want to enjoy more actions without taking huge risks. I'm not a pvp player, i do not enjoy looking out for fights, but i would not mind a few battles now and tend if there was some objectives to do. Low sec is a death sentence unless i have an army to back me up and being unable to manouver around in battle isn't fun (any fun being scrambled and slowed don't to a crawl?). But to all that did not understand yet, the very reason why most EVE players stay in high sec is that the odds of losing it all is too high in low and null sec. I'm not a pvp player, i do not enjoy looking out for fights, but i would not mind a few battles now and then if it was less stressful to do. If pvp survival odds were higher, i'm sure more players would do it. But for that chances of escaping destruction need to be higher... You're playing the wrong game man.
Adalek	Posted - 2009.11.25 17:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Foraven I guess i should have expected the kind of answers i got. I'm a casual player (mean i have few hours to play each week), and i would want to enjoy more actions without taking huge risks. I'm not a pvp player, i do not enjoy looking out for fights, but i would not mind a few battles now and tend if there was some objectives to do. Low sec is a death sentence unless i have an army to back me up and being unable to manouver around in battle isn't fun (any fun being scrambled and slowed don't to a crawl?). But to all that did not understand yet, the very reason why most EVE players stay in high sec is that the odds of losing it all is too high in low and null sec. I'm not a pvp player, i do not enjoy looking out for fights, but i would not mind a few battles now and then if it was less stressful to do. If pvp survival odds were higher, i'm sure more players would do it. But for that chances of escaping destruction need to be higher... Many, many players share his sentiments. Hence the reason why there are more "carebears". The issue I see about it is that to get to lowsec/nullsec you have to go through pipes that are almost always camped. So newer/casual players go venturing off into lowsec/nullsec and get blasted to bits by a vastly superior group and say that's what pvp is like. I know some wannabe elitist is gonna say "Oh, well use scouts or INTEL channels!" And you would be right, however a casual player that just wants to get some pvp experience isn't gonna be able to do that... PvP is fun, however the gateway there, is camped...
Oriens Pars	Posted - 2009.11.25 18:03:00 - [18] Uh.....PvP doesn't only happen in lowsec and nullsec. It may not be the same type of PvP in highsec, but it is PvP nonetheless. If you don't like the type of PvP that happens in highsec then learn how to do it in lowsec or 0.0, and go there.
Dodgy Past Amarr Lollipops for Rancors	Posted - 2009.11.25 18:31:00 - [19] I wish low sec was as exciting as you claim it to be. Most of the time my issue is that's it's too quiet and boring. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2009.11.25 18:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Dodgy Past I wish low sec was as exciting as you claim it to be. Most of the time my issue is that's it's too quiet and boring. Clearly the solution is to camp all the gates leading into lowsec and kill anyone who tries to use them. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Adalek	Posted - 2009.11.25 19:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Dodgy Past I wish low sec was as exciting as you claim it to be. Most of the time my issue is that's it's too quiet and boring. Clearly the solution is to camp all the gates leading into lowsec and kill anyone who tries to use them. This.
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.26 00:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Nemiona Dont know what battles you have been in, but baiting works, also hunting down fleeing enemies. Maybe, but it's not mainstream in EVE. Generally you jump on targets and don't let them go... Quote: Disable webber ? how do you plan on hitting small fast ships ? Isn't the point of fast ships to be hard to hit? But that would not really be an issue if afterburners and micro warpdrives could not be used the way they currently are (ie you can leave them on pretty much all the time). For example they could temporary boost of speed and need recharging afterward : they would be tactical device rather than convenient overdrive we leave always on. Quote: Lock on warp sig is kinda interesting idea, but the outcome of that is more ganking and I have a feeling thats not what you want. Being able to flee somewhere else would already be a good start. Who know, the new spot might provide some help to fend off pursuers... Anything but being locked down and unable to move. Quote: A few weeks ago my old corp spotted a small gatecamp with bubbles. I went in a cloaked ship, moved my way to our primary target and gang warped on top of me. We was outnumbered but still we shot down 4 of the enemies before the rest fled. then 30 minutes later we baited them, we lost our bait ship, but they lost 3 more ships. that was a fun battle and would not be possible without scramblers, cloak and webbers. Remain that EVE pvp is pretty much about pinning down someone and hammering them until they die. I'm quite aware that there are ways to have fun with the current system, but more variety would be nice. For those that say this game isn't for me because i'm not willing to take huge risks... There is a difference between taking acceptable risks and being suicidal. In this game we need to make isks, and to prosper we need ways to make it without rebuilding all the time. I played this game years ago (trial) and i could go low sec, do some rats (they were still challenging back then) and not fear getting blown up within 5 minutes by local pirates. Now, well, the last few times i did bother i was breaking record on how fast my ship could get blown up by pirate players.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.26 09:16:00 - [23] I solo in low sec all the time, successfully. no backup. Just grab a ship and go out. Tbh, if you are not willing to commit to a fioght EVE is not for you. EVE is all about risks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.26 09:45:00 - [24] Edited by: Zaiyo Modi on 26/11/2009 09:47:01 I put up an idea here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1218960 In short, that idea is meant to potentially slow down and pace the resolution of combat, by offering pilots an option to reduce their ship visibility by removing themselves from the overview, even when they are on the grid and nearby other ships. To get this to work a change to the ship scanner mechanism is in order, by limiting the info that is shown when someone scan an area with the ship scanner, so that only one or a few of the ships running silent show up. That way you can't simply do a ship scan within 14AU and get exact info on ships with reduced visibility. To lock a ship running silent, you would have to see it on screen and lock manually and not from the overview. Running silent would offer no bonus after combat is initiated other than as a desperate attempt to hide and wait and perhaps move away at slow speed. Because that ship running silent will be slow, unable to warp, and vulnerable with its passive tank abilities. But before combat is initiated, running silent may be used for scouting, keeping a low visibility until they see targets they want to attack. Of course, with ranges 50km+ it is hard if not impossible to spot these ships when they run silent as they dont show on overview, so in addition to not showing on overview, people will not expect them when they do show up, unless pilots probe them down or simply spend time and look very hard in space around stargates for ships running silent. I first wanted to keep people from warping around to slow things down, but I think that this is not the time to make such changes (because people probably don't want a basic time-penalty for warping away), and the idea above changes the way of how one use the initiative instead of changing the warp mechanics.
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2009.11.26 09:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Foraven Autopsy of EVE player combat. So EVE is dead after all.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2009.11.26 10:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I solo in low sec all the time, successfully. no backup. Just grab a ship and go out. Tbh, if you are not willing to commit to a fioght EVE is not for you. EVE is all about risks. I attempt to alot.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.26 10:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Zaiyo Modi Edited by: Zaiyo Modi on 26/11/2009 09:47:01 I put up an idea here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1218960 In short, that idea is meant to potentially slow down and pace the resolution of combat, by offering pilots an option to reduce their ship visibility by removing themselves from the overview, even when they are on the grid and nearby other ships. To get this to work a change to the ship scanner mechanism is in order, by limiting the info that is shown when someone scan an area with the ship scanner, so that only one or a few of the ships running silent show up. That way you can't simply do a ship scan within 14AU and get exact info on ships with reduced visibility. To lock a ship running silent, you would have to see it on screen and lock manually and not from the overview. Running silent would offer no bonus after combat is initiated other than as a desperate attempt to hide and wait and perhaps move away at slow speed. Because that ship running silent will be slow, unable to warp, and vulnerable with its passive tank abilities. But before combat is initiated, running silent may be used for scouting, keeping a low visibility until they see targets they want to attack. Of course, with ranges 50km+ it is hard if not impossible to spot these ships when they run silent as they dont show on overview, so in addition to not showing on overview, people will not expect them when they do show up, unless pilots probe them down or simply spend time and look very hard in space around stargates for ships running silent. I first wanted to keep people from warping around to slow things down, but I think that this is not the time to make such changes (because people probably don't want a basic time-penalty for warping away), and the idea above changes the way of how one use the initiative instead of changing the warp mechanics. if only there was some kind of device that made your ship invisible...
Lady Spank Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.11.26 10:30:00 - [28] ITT: People that don't PVP trying to get PVP changed based on extremely limited experience of betting ganked. Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer I could go for some doritos now, damn you Spank
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.26 10:56:00 - [29] Edited by: Zaiyo Modi on 26/11/2009 11:01:06 Originally by: rubico1337 if only there was some kind of device that made your ship invisible... I see your point, but I don't think you really understand the idea. There are some differences: • No cloak module is needed for this. • Ships running silent only vanish from overview but are seen in space, you would just have to spot them and try to lock them. • Cloaked ships cannot be probed down at all, while ships running silent can be probed down. There would still be a use for cloaking modules. • Ships running silent can start locking a target with no delay immedately when returning to a normal state (most downpowering will be affecting the ships warpdrive, which would be disabled for say 60 seconds after having returned to a normal state). Ships running silent cannot lock other ships, but can itself be locked and fired upon. So ships using a cloaking module keep the benefit of being fully safe, while also being penalized with a delay in locking time, called sensor recalibration iirc. Recon ship would stay the same. Only weird thing is their ability to immediately start locking a target when uncloaking. Perhaps recons could be offered a speed bonus to compensate, as their immediate locking ability no longer is uniquely theirs.
Rockhead Rumple	Posted - 2009.11.26 11:00:00 - [30] Edited by: Rockhead Rumple on 26/11/2009 11:00:43 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs EVE is all about risks. Doh.

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