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Daktor	Posted - 2004.11.10 14:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Avon Besides, third party utilities are disallowed anyway, so the macro clause is covered twice. So when I find you ebil pirates using teamspeak to coordinate your attacks on my helpless pod, I can petition you? You are using a 3rd party program to gain an unfair advantage. Or are their exceptions?
Daktor	Posted - 2004.11.10 14:14:00 - [32] Originally by: Avon Besides, third party utilities are disallowed anyway, so the macro clause is covered twice. So when I find you ebil pirates using teamspeak to coordinate your attacks on my helpless pod, I can petition you? You are using a 3rd party program to gain an unfair advantage. Or are their exceptions?
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.10 14:33:00 - [33] Originally by: Kerplunk OK, not sure if I made myself 100% clear actually. I'm not talking about strip mining roid fields and all that complex stuff which apparently these evil macros can do. I'm talking about the single player like me. E.g. got my single osprey with decent mining bonuses and all that so each cycle of the 3 miner IIs fills up my hold and the miners stop. So I need to constantly move my ore to my jet can every 30-60 seconds. That's exactly the kind of thing I was referring to. Drag/drop and no intelligence behind it. The difference is you moving your mouse or you having some other software move it. It helps you go afk for five minutes (perhaps ten) instead of three minutes but confers no other advantage. Depending how you read the EULA that can be thought of as okay since it doesn't get you the ore any faster. OTOH every time the discussion is brought up and answered by devs or gms they always state that macros are not allowed. This might be because they don't understand the difference but is more likely because they want to avoid trying to draw the line. It's easier and simpler to just say "no macros" than to try to define underwhat particular circumstances they are okay. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.10 14:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Kerplunk OK, not sure if I made myself 100% clear actually. I'm not talking about strip mining roid fields and all that complex stuff which apparently these evil macros can do. I'm talking about the single player like me. E.g. got my single osprey with decent mining bonuses and all that so each cycle of the 3 miner IIs fills up my hold and the miners stop. So I need to constantly move my ore to my jet can every 30-60 seconds. That's exactly the kind of thing I was referring to. Drag/drop and no intelligence behind it. The difference is you moving your mouse or you having some other software move it. It helps you go afk for five minutes (perhaps ten) instead of three minutes but confers no other advantage. Depending how you read the EULA that can be thought of as okay since it doesn't get you the ore any faster. OTOH every time the discussion is brought up and answered by devs or gms they always state that macros are not allowed. This might be because they don't understand the difference but is more likely because they want to avoid trying to draw the line. It's easier and simpler to just say "no macros" than to try to define underwhat particular circumstances they are okay. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Matthew Johnson	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:30:00 - [35] Edited by: Matthew Johnson on 10/11/2004 16:34:11 The idea behind Teamspeak beeing a third person program, which benefits people using it is very nice. IMHO makros shouldn¦t be forbitten. The mechanics of the game should be altered, that they simply become useless. For example move the "my cargo" window every 10 seconds a few pixels into a random direction: After some minutes the makro misses the ore-stack. But what about AFK smartbombing pirates? It doesnt use third-party programs, so should be no cheat? It gives money and standing without any interaction!. But you could change the auto-repeat, that it deakticates after 5 minutes, deaktivating the smartbomb. Or spawn larger pirates even in low sec-space when a bigger PC-ship is in the belt. You could also prevent afk-traveling by adding pirates, which operate in high sl systems and drag you out of warp. Lots of "could¦s", I know. I also know that adding features is diffivult task, but things like the mining-makro discussion are results of general game-design flaws which exist since beta. (Originally CCP didn¦t think about mining into cans! Why not forbit ore to be put into cans?) Finally I want to say that I don¦t like the latest DEV-BLOG. Imho it confuses more that it makes clear. +++ Trade...good for you, good for me +++
Matthew Johnson	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:30:00 - [36] Edited by: Matthew Johnson on 10/11/2004 16:34:11 The idea behind Teamspeak beeing a third person program, which benefits people using it is very nice. IMHO makros shouldn¦t be forbitten. The mechanics of the game should be altered, that they simply become useless. For example move the "my cargo" window every 10 seconds a few pixels into a random direction: After some minutes the makro misses the ore-stack. But what about AFK smartbombing pirates? It doesnt use third-party programs, so should be no cheat? It gives money and standing without any interaction!. But you could change the auto-repeat, that it deakticates after 5 minutes, deaktivating the smartbomb. Or spawn larger pirates even in low sec-space when a bigger PC-ship is in the belt. You could also prevent afk-traveling by adding pirates, which operate in high sl systems and drag you out of warp. Lots of "could¦s", I know. I also know that adding features is diffivult task, but things like the mining-makro discussion are results of general game-design flaws which exist since beta. (Originally CCP didn¦t think about mining into cans! Why not forbit ore to be put into cans?) Finally I want to say that I don¦t like the latest DEV-BLOG. Imho it confuses more that it makes clear. +++ Trade...good for you, good for me +++
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:16:00 - [37] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 10/11/2004 17:19:24 Quote: But what about AFK smartbombing pirates? It doesnt use third-party programs, so should be no cheat? It gives money and standing without any interaction!. But you could change the auto-repeat, that it deakticates after 5 minutes, deaktivating the smartbomb. Or spawn larger pirates even in low sec-space when a bigger PC-ship is in the belt. If you see anyone using smartbombs afk in a belt to kill NPC's (assuming low sec system since doing it in high sec is suicide), turn them in to the GM's. Using smartbombs in a chainspawn or for afk spawning is considered an exploit, and people have been banned under similar cirucmstances for using it. We are talking little warning and long term bans here, no silly 24 hour bans or something. As far as macros go, they should be forbidden not because one person using an ore drag macro would ruin anyone's gameplay, but because the rl corporations that use 20 account to macro mine ingame and sell the isk they make on ebay or thru their own sites that ruin a games economy. And of course there are debatable instances in between that cause various amounts of damage to this game as well. Since you cant determine easily where the lien shold be drawn it is drawn at the zero-macro point. Personally, I will not hesitate to petition a macro miner, steal his ore and declare war on his corporations untioll he leaves the game in disgust (assuming he's not banned in the first place). _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:16:00 - [38] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 10/11/2004 17:19:24 Quote: But what about AFK smartbombing pirates? It doesnt use third-party programs, so should be no cheat? It gives money and standing without any interaction!. But you could change the auto-repeat, that it deakticates after 5 minutes, deaktivating the smartbomb. Or spawn larger pirates even in low sec-space when a bigger PC-ship is in the belt. If you see anyone using smartbombs afk in a belt to kill NPC's (assuming low sec system since doing it in high sec is suicide), turn them in to the GM's. Using smartbombs in a chainspawn or for afk spawning is considered an exploit, and people have been banned under similar cirucmstances for using it. We are talking little warning and long term bans here, no silly 24 hour bans or something. As far as macros go, they should be forbidden not because one person using an ore drag macro would ruin anyone's gameplay, but because the rl corporations that use 20 account to macro mine ingame and sell the isk they make on ebay or thru their own sites that ruin a games economy. And of course there are debatable instances in between that cause various amounts of damage to this game as well. Since you cant determine easily where the lien shold be drawn it is drawn at the zero-macro point. Personally, I will not hesitate to petition a macro miner, steal his ore and declare war on his corporations untioll he leaves the game in disgust (assuming he's not banned in the first place). _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Astinius	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:58:00 - [39] CCP could care less about macro miners. The fact that all the ISK on ebay is still there and growing is proof. If they did care they would create a full time position to, 1. buy one block of isk from a ebay seller. 2. Go ingame and receive the isk. 3. Trace the isk back to the account that created it. 4. associate all the accounts that mine with that account. 5. Ban all those accounts. 6. End of ebay macro isks. 7. repeat step with next isk ebayer. They don't do this because they do not find it a threat, so in their opinion macro mine away!
Astinius	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:58:00 - [40] CCP could care less about macro miners. The fact that all the ISK on ebay is still there and growing is proof. If they did care they would create a full time position to, 1. buy one block of isk from a ebay seller. 2. Go ingame and receive the isk. 3. Trace the isk back to the account that created it. 4. associate all the accounts that mine with that account. 5. Ban all those accounts. 6. End of ebay macro isks. 7. repeat step with next isk ebayer. They don't do this because they do not find it a threat, so in their opinion macro mine away!
SwitchBl4d3	Posted - 2004.11.10 18:26:00 - [41] can u setup a macro then place a cat infront of the PC.. or are there rules stating cats cant play. cats cant type english though but i bet they could tap the keyboard. "Teh lord of Nonni"
SwitchBl4d3	Posted - 2004.11.10 18:26:00 - [42] can u setup a macro then place a cat infront of the PC.. or are there rules stating cats cant play. cats cant type english though but i bet they could tap the keyboard. "Teh lord of Nonni"
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:25:00 - [43] Originally by: SwitchBl4d3 can u setup a macro then place a cat infront of the PC.. or are there rules stating cats cant play. cats cant type english though but i bet they could tap the keyboard. That's a possible solution. I sure as heck can't train my budgie to play Eve but a cat.. might be possible -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:25:00 - [44] Originally by: SwitchBl4d3 can u setup a macro then place a cat infront of the PC.. or are there rules stating cats cant play. cats cant type english though but i bet they could tap the keyboard. That's a possible solution. I sure as heck can't train my budgie to play Eve but a cat.. might be possible -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Manfred Doomhammer	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:44:00 - [45] now, funny thing is, i often do missions while asleep... okok, i didnt mine so far, but i did farely well at killing for my navy agent. I seem to respond to changing situations while asleep, still, i seem not be able to engage in any conversation is this allowed or not? ---- Manfred Doomhammer Fleet Admiral CEO ShadowTec Inc.
Manfred Doomhammer	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:44:00 - [46] now, funny thing is, i often do missions while asleep... okok, i didnt mine so far, but i did farely well at killing for my navy agent. I seem to respond to changing situations while asleep, still, i seem not be able to engage in any conversation is this allowed or not? ---- Manfred Doomhammer Fleet Admiral CEO ShadowTec Inc.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:47:00 - [47] Only stupid people argue the case for macro's. What GMs say, goes. Can't you comprehend this you silly eBaying nimrods? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:47:00 - [48] Only stupid people argue the case for macro's. What GMs say, goes. Can't you comprehend this you silly eBaying nimrods? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Lygos	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:49:00 - [49] Get rid of the wrong-headed solutions by getting rid of the original problems. Reaction is too expensive, both for players and for GMs and in any real life situation. I wish the game presented no opportunity for macro miners. I wish that players could graduate away from being laborers and move into being directors like proper space captains. Employ the billions of non-captains cluttering stations around the universe, particularly in the new POS. If enormous amounts of minerals were suddenly poured onto the market (where there is actually very little now) then what is really needed are more avenues for those minerals to be dumped. Your average griefer doesn't make the game interesting, he just buys enough minerals for his one ship and does nearly nothing economical until he is blown up after a few days. This creates nothing but log-off empires. If physically unloggable empires were a necessity, and required a focused effort at using POS produced materials and research efficiently and prudently, then you would have a whole new level of attrition gameplay between player empires. These idiot logon/logoff gank fests and basal level of industrial activity waste enormous quantities of manhours that could be dedicated to organizing individuals to work as a team economically and logistically rather than just as a gank squad. None of that could ever come to pass so long as only <10% of the 0.0 population ever fits a mining laser. Manpower is the most valuable asset of any empire and mechanics of the economy should reflect that. Gamers don't like doing labor, but they will enjoy doing management. It would be good for the Leaders, it would be good for the manufacturers, it would be good for the miner-hauler-pos managers, and it would be good for the newbs that ought to be looking for gainful employment outside of hi sec space. It would even be good for the overabundant yet risk-averse ADD factions out there looking for somebody or *SOMETHING* to dismember within the next 5 minutes. This is good for the irredentist alliance fighter jocks out there as well as the pirates. It should be perfectly fine for the pirates because they'll even hunt a week old newb and slap their comrades' backs for a job jolly well done. They should be able to get their kicks on a spare mining installation on the periphery of an alliance player empire that noone really sets as a high defense priority. Anyway, that's my 2 isk for dealing with problems before they start.
Lygos	Posted - 2004.11.10 22:49:00 - [50] Get rid of the wrong-headed solutions by getting rid of the original problems. Reaction is too expensive, both for players and for GMs and in any real life situation. I wish the game presented no opportunity for macro miners. I wish that players could graduate away from being laborers and move into being directors like proper space captains. Employ the billions of non-captains cluttering stations around the universe, particularly in the new POS. If enormous amounts of minerals were suddenly poured onto the market (where there is actually very little now) then what is really needed are more avenues for those minerals to be dumped. Your average griefer doesn't make the game interesting, he just buys enough minerals for his one ship and does nearly nothing economical until he is blown up after a few days. This creates nothing but log-off empires. If physically unloggable empires were a necessity, and required a focused effort at using POS produced materials and research efficiently and prudently, then you would have a whole new level of attrition gameplay between player empires. These idiot logon/logoff gank fests and basal level of industrial activity waste enormous quantities of manhours that could be dedicated to organizing individuals to work as a team economically and logistically rather than just as a gank squad. None of that could ever come to pass so long as only <10% of the 0.0 population ever fits a mining laser. Manpower is the most valuable asset of any empire and mechanics of the economy should reflect that. Gamers don't like doing labor, but they will enjoy doing management. It would be good for the Leaders, it would be good for the manufacturers, it would be good for the miner-hauler-pos managers, and it would be good for the newbs that ought to be looking for gainful employment outside of hi sec space. It would even be good for the overabundant yet risk-averse ADD factions out there looking for somebody or *SOMETHING* to dismember within the next 5 minutes. This is good for the irredentist alliance fighter jocks out there as well as the pirates. It should be perfectly fine for the pirates because they'll even hunt a week old newb and slap their comrades' backs for a job jolly well done. They should be able to get their kicks on a spare mining installation on the periphery of an alliance player empire that noone really sets as a high defense priority. Anyway, that's my 2 isk for dealing with problems before they start.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.10 23:15:00 - [51] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 10/11/2004 23:19:54 Get informed before coming up with solutions that would not work. I'm not referring to that random 10% numebr you called Lygos, but to your solution of removing labor for management duties. If hours spent on mining or trading would instead be spent on managing stuff It would still get boring after a while. No solution at all imo. And btw, the reasons for macromining to come into play as a big issue is not so much people being bored but being greedy and selling their millions on ebay. Or people being ********s and needing cheats to advance faster in the game. Any way you look at it, macroing will be everywhere where the generation of ingame resources can be automated. The more it is possible to generate ingame resources without ingame risk, the more macroing will be succesfull. you either need a good way to trace macros in client action or you need to take away all possibilities to make automated isk easily. It has very little to do with those that you call ADD gankers or whatever. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.10 23:15:00 - [52] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 10/11/2004 23:19:54 Get informed before coming up with solutions that would not work. I'm not referring to that random 10% numebr you called Lygos, but to your solution of removing labor for management duties. If hours spent on mining or trading would instead be spent on managing stuff It would still get boring after a while. No solution at all imo. And btw, the reasons for macromining to come into play as a big issue is not so much people being bored but being greedy and selling their millions on ebay. Or people being ********s and needing cheats to advance faster in the game. Any way you look at it, macroing will be everywhere where the generation of ingame resources can be automated. The more it is possible to generate ingame resources without ingame risk, the more macroing will be succesfull. you either need a good way to trace macros in client action or you need to take away all possibilities to make automated isk easily. It has very little to do with those that you call ADD gankers or whatever. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Daniel Jackson	Posted - 2004.11.11 01:32:00 - [53] Quote: A player can not mine 23/7, a macro can. Thus a macro does indeed accelerate the rate of mining over that of normal gameplay. Besides, third party utilities are disallowed anyway, so the macro clause is covered twice. hmm yes they can ive done it a few times in the past WITH OUT USING MACROS its easy to stay up eeven 24/7 Caldari will once again rise above the gallente and take back Caldari prime! Image done by Denrace
Daniel Jackson	Posted - 2004.11.11 01:32:00 - [54] Quote: A player can not mine 23/7, a macro can. Thus a macro does indeed accelerate the rate of mining over that of normal gameplay. Besides, third party utilities are disallowed anyway, so the macro clause is covered twice. hmm yes they can ive done it a few times in the past WITH OUT USING MACROS its easy to stay up eeven 24/7 Caldari will once again rise above the gallente and take back Caldari prime! Image done by Denrace
Daniel Jackson	Posted - 2004.11.11 01:45:00 - [55] any way im scared of the ban fact so i stopt using my macros but man it was only cause i couldent chetch up ith the ore getting cargo hull filled like ever 2.3 sec Caldari will once again rise above the gallente and take back Caldari prime! Image done by Denrace
Daniel Jackson	Posted - 2004.11.11 01:45:00 - [56] any way im scared of the ban fact so i stopt using my macros but man it was only cause i couldent chetch up ith the ore getting cargo hull filled like ever 2.3 sec Caldari will once again rise above the gallente and take back Caldari prime! Image done by Denrace
jamesw	Posted - 2004.11.11 02:09:00 - [57] <copied from my response to the dev blog> Make flying a ship in 1.0 space remotely interactive. Add a feature to the new contraband scanning system, the purpose of which is to detect and disable AFK pilots in high sec systems. Example Popup window (similar to gang invite) "Your ship is being scanned by CONCORDOKEN. We wish to ensure pilot safety and to this extent will not allow any pilots who are sleeping to fly their ships. Please respond to our code to move on. <insert random 4 digit code #>" At this point the scanned player needs to type the 4 digits into a field at the bottom of the message, and can continue on. If there is no response, or if you dont enter the code correctly, CONCORD will web and warp scramble you indefinately. You can re-enter the code at any time to make concord leave. Similarly, you could randomly need to enter an access code when docking at stations in hi sec. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
jamesw	Posted - 2004.11.11 02:09:00 - [58] <copied from my response to the dev blog> Make flying a ship in 1.0 space remotely interactive. Add a feature to the new contraband scanning system, the purpose of which is to detect and disable AFK pilots in high sec systems. Example Popup window (similar to gang invite) "Your ship is being scanned by CONCORDOKEN. We wish to ensure pilot safety and to this extent will not allow any pilots who are sleeping to fly their ships. Please respond to our code to move on. <insert random 4 digit code #>" At this point the scanned player needs to type the 4 digits into a field at the bottom of the message, and can continue on. If there is no response, or if you dont enter the code correctly, CONCORD will web and warp scramble you indefinately. You can re-enter the code at any time to make concord leave. Similarly, you could randomly need to enter an access code when docking at stations in hi sec. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
jamesw	Posted - 2004.11.11 02:10:00 - [59] oh and someone please do something about daniel jackson.... -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
jamesw	Posted - 2004.11.11 02:10:00 - [60] oh and someone please do something about daniel jackson.... -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can

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