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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 11:19:00 -
[1]
Jita Direct Sale (JIDSALE) is a trade house that offers a third option for selling in empire space. Manufacturers and traders coming to the major hubs now have the opportunity to sell to us, at a price that is inbetween the local sell order and buy order market prices.
This thread will hold your shouts of ôwant-to-buyö and ôwant-to-sellö Jita Direct Sale shares.
The November share auction was in this thread, which also has links to previous bonds, so go check that thread out. The sell price landed at 40.4 mil isk per share. Projected dividend per share was 3 mil isk per share per month. Actual dividend for November was 11.6 mil isk (see below)
IMPORTANT NOTICE
As I announced in mid-November, this radical succes causes me to immediately transform the ôsharesö into ôperpetual bondsö, in order to put a cap on the expectations of this venture for the coming months (I will continue to call them shares though, because actual ingame shares from Jidsale corp is the item traded).
From now on two important factors are changed:
1) Dividend will every month be 10 mil isk per share, regardless of company profits
2) There will be no more performance audits
A new auction of 100 additional shares will take place from December 10 to December 20. Independent of the auction, investors can use this current thread to trade shares among themselves. You can post here to state how many shares you wish to buy and the price you will give, or how many shares you wish to sell and at which price.
If you reach an agreement with someone, you have 3 options:
a) Jidsale can handle the transfer for you û I will charge a 5 % fee.
b) You can find another third party to do the transfer.
c) You can do it directly from buyer to seller, if you trust each other. This is not generally recommended.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 11:20:00 -
[2]
Report
My personal NAV increased by 11.6 bn in November (from 2.1 to 13.7, confirmed by Kazuo below). The November dividend has just been paid out to shareholders based on this. Dividend was 0.1 % of my profits, it was thus 11.6 mil per share rather than the projected 3 mil.
The succes was partly due to speculations on 4-5 Dominion minerals, partly to my ongoing trade actvities running more and more efficiently, and increasing in scale.
Prospects
The coming months will hold the following Jidsale trade actvities
1) Station trade / market control. I currently trade around 20-25 items at a time, and work hard to control the price on each. The scale of these ventures in terms of isk invested per item has increased dramatically in the past month û profit likewise.
2) Dominion speculation. Although I already sold most of my early stock, I will buy and sell some minerals continously, as the prices evolve towards equilibrium.
3) Jidsale clients. I still have some regular suppliers for the company, although Jidsale trade is now increasingly done by my 3 colleagues.
4) Investments. I am beginning investing in high-profit MD bonds and privately.
5) Other activities. I may purchase another account, start some manufacture or other experiments. This will not yield any profit atm.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 11:21:00 -
[3]
Currently advertised by investors
Want-to-buy shouts:
20 shares at 60 mil - Alvodine (18/11)
1 share at 51 mil - Tylwyth Teg (10/11)
Want-to-sell shouts:
none
Previous trades:
(Auction: 7 investors bought shares for 40.6 mil per share)
10 shares at 60 mil - Einear Lightfingers sold to Tsang Chou (11/11)
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.02 11:33:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Cista2
From now on two important factors are changed:
1) Dividend will every month be 10 mil isk per share, regardless of company profits
2) There will be no more performance audits
This is now a bond with those changes.
Oh, a bond with no maturity.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 12:07:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kalrand
This is now a bond with those changes.
Oh, a bond with no maturity.
There is no maturity, because you can return the shares to Jidsale at any given time you choose. Buyback price is currently 36 mil isk. After next auction buyback price will be average of auction price for both auctions. In other words, if next auction price is 60 mil, buyback price will be 50 mil, also for the "old" shares.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Teavan
First CityWide Change Bank
New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.02 14:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cista2
From now on two important factors are changed:
1) Dividend will every month be 10 mil isk per share, regardless of company profits
2) There will be no more performance audits
This doesn't seem very fair to your investors to me.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 14:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Teavan
This doesn't seem very fair to your investors to me.
It's not, but we had that discussion already on the old thread  and I have apologised for this change. None of the investors have been interested in selling their shares though.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Magnu Stormhawk
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Posted - 2009.12.02 15:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Teavan
Originally by: Cista2
From now on two important factors are changed:
1) Dividend will every month be 10 mil isk per share, regardless of company profits
2) There will be no more performance audits
This doesn't seem very fair to your investors to me.
I've just been guaranteed a 24% monthly return on my investment, plus I expect significant capital appreciation of my shares. Suffice to say, I do not feel unfairly treated.
I can understand why some investors may be put out by the lack of performance audits, although to some extent it is less relevant if the dividends are fixed anyway.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.12.02 15:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cista2
Report
My personal NAV increased by 11.6 bn in November (from 2.1 to 13.7, confirmed by Kazuo below). The November dividend has just been paid out to shareholders based on this. Dividend was 0.1 % of my profits, it was thus 11.6 mil per share rather than the projected 3 mil.
Confirming the dramatic increase in NAV, and the absence of any large unexplained donations.
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34.4:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2009.12.02 15:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Confirming the dramatic increase in NAV, and the absence of any large unexplained donations.
Can you please explain what is included in the NAV? ie How it is calculated? (Not interested in how things are valued or the tools used, just the formula)
Thanks
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Dzil
Caldari
RED DESCENT
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Posted - 2009.12.02 16:13:00 -
[11]
Since it wasn't listed above, I'll restate my 1 share @ 1 million bid. I won't further troll this thread needlessly and waste anyone's time.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.12.02 16:16:00 -
[12]
The NAV includes the following, prices being rough Jita liquidation value:
Liquid isk in all relevant wallets
Isk in escrow (i.e. buy orders)
Value of stock in hangars
Value of stock in sell orders
200m invested in the activities of two other characters
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34.4:1 mineral compression |
Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 16:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex
Can you please explain what is included in the NAV? ie How it is calculated? (Not interested in how things are valued or the tools used, just the formula)
I know that Kazuo uses EMMA. It takes in buy order, sell order, and stock - he can provide more details. The stock was actually valued pretty low.
I forgot to say that 4 bn of the profit came from the share sale. That is also why I am putting a cap on the dividend now: the share sale influences the dividends, and the high dividends increase the share price. It would be unwise to continue this spiral for several months, because share prices would skyrocket upwards until the day I stopped auctioning them - then they would crash.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2009.12.02 17:31:00 -
[14]
Thanks Kazuo, Cista.
Cista, you really shouldn't be including the share proceeds in your NAV. At the very least you should be deducting the obligations you have on them, namely your buyback offer of 36m per share (3.6bn total). Your NAV is supposed to be "net" of liabilities. This goes for all your subsequent share offerings as well.
For what its worth, I think changing the terms of your agreement without unanimous investor consent (or buying out objectors) is really going to hurt your credibility.
My advice: Drop the November dividend by 3.6m each. If it was already paid, then consider that extra 3.6m as advanced payment on the next dividend. This is entirely fair as it was quite clear that your dividends were based on profits and the 4bn invested is NOT profit. THEN propose the 10m cap and a reasonable buyout offer to any equity investor that does not want to convert to a fixed income.
This whole thing is a bit of a mess, but how you handle the mess says a lot about your credibility. Will you honor your agreements as "fair" as possible, or will you pull an EBANK and say "I hold the ISK therefore its MY rules"?
Bite the bullet, fix this now in an equitable fashion, and both you AND your investors will be better off in the long run.
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Xaunt Rauber
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Posted - 2009.12.02 17:31:00 -
[15]
WTB 2 Shares for 100 million.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 18:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex
My advice
Things will remain as I decided in Mid-November. I have already paid dividends for November, and I am going to show my investors stability now, rather than more changes.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 18:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Xaunt Rauber
WTB 2 Shares for 100 million.
Is that 100 million per share, or 50 mil per share?
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
SetrakDark
Caldari
DarkCorp Technology and Finance
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Posted - 2009.12.02 18:10:00 -
[18]
Edited by: SetrakDark on 02/12/2009 18:11:41
Pre-IPO Trading Pool NAV (PreNAV) + IPO Funds (IPO) = Post-IPO Trading Pool NAV (PostNAV)
PreNAV (x%) + IPO (y%) = PostNAV (100%)
Monthly dividend of a% of monthly profits paid as follows, starting from 1 month after IPO:
PostNAV1(pre-dividend) - PostNAV0 = monthly profit (MP)
Investors' total payout = ayMP
Cista's total payout = axMP
MP - axMP - ayMP = retained earnings (RE)
RE + PostNAV0 = PostNAV1 (post-dividend)
Repeat next month with PostNAV2 (pre-dividend) - PostNAV1 (post-dvidend)
axMP can only be put back in if the equity-stake is adjusted to reflect it, i.e. x increases and y decreases
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2009.12.02 18:18:00 -
[19]
Unwise.
Why don't you ask them what they want rather than telling them they want stability?
You are tainting all your future MD offers with the clause "I reserve the right to change this terms of this agreement at any time without investor approval."
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Anita Lazarin
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Posted - 2009.12.02 19:04:00 -
[20]
Buy 10 shares at 52m
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Llu
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Posted - 2009.12.02 20:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex
Unwise.
Why don't you ask them what they want rather than telling them they want stability?
You are tainting all your future MD offers with the clause "I reserve the right to change this terms of this agreement at any time without investor approval."
Any MD offering is tainted by the fact it is offered to the public and in general end up as failed which by the very definition is a change with out investors approval. All Cista has done is to make it public from the start what the goals are, when they have changed and why. If people are unhappy they are welcome to sell their shares and still come out ahead and/or not buy any future stock from him.
Me I project that the next sale will end up with prices at at least 55MM per share and that in the overall scheme of things his right to change with out approval will have no impact on any future offerings. Why? Because people will throw cash at anything no matter the ROI or chance of failure and Cista has at least so far delivered even with the changed terms which is more then most other bonds/funds et al can say.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.02 20:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Llu
Any MD offering is tainted by the fact it is offered to the public and in general end up as failed which by the very definition is a change with out investors approval.
Not all MD offerings have failed. Me and RAW are a couple recent examples. Andron Blaxcor is another, I think. I haven't been around long enough to give you a long list, but I believe cosmoray has one.
Originally by: Llu
Me I project that the next sale will end up with prices at at least 55MM per share and that in the overall scheme of things his right to change with out approval will have no impact on any future offerings.
The change it will have is a realization that Cista is willing and able to change the terms of the bond/IPO/whatever w/o consulting investors. People considering investing in future offerings will (hopefully) know this and affect whether they're willing to invest. Your stance is that it won't affect them negatively because of the belief that Cista will at least try to be fair about it. That's up to each investor to decide.
Originally by: Llu
Why? Because people will throw cash at anything no matter the ROI or chance of failure and Cista has at least so far delivered even with the changed terms which is more then most other bonds/funds et al can say.
Well, not anything. But sometimes it can be surprising, yeah.
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2009.12.02 22:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Llu
All Cista has done is...
All Cista has done is renege on her promises. Lets cut the spin here. Perhaps her investors are fine with the new deal, but that is besides the point. She should have gotten their ok first. If they do agree with this, well then thats just a happy coincidence, because she
Did she out and out scam? No. But she is not honoring her agreements and this will affect any long-term agreements she is a part of. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the whole "Yeah but I didn't know things would turn out like this when I made that agreement" argument.
She sold equity but gave them bonds. If she does it again next time, well then, I don't really care. Now everyone should know that the terms of her agreement are irrelevant, but the original investors did not know that. And to offer them 90% of their money back if they're unhappy at the changes to the terms? I don't think thats right either.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 22:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex
And to offer them 90% of their money back if they're unhappy at the changes to the terms? I don't think thats right either.
*Sigh* The value of shares has been 150 % of auction price (60 mil/40 mil) since November 18. No investor has chosen to sell.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
SetrakDark
Caldari
DarkCorp Technology and Finance
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Posted - 2009.12.02 22:58:00 -
[25]
The actual dividend should have been 4.99m per share. Due to not understanding how equity works (admittedly the bastardized MD version, but it retains the basic payout concepts), Cista calculated a dividend 2.5 times too big. Investors are getting a better deal, and Cista seems fine with the arrangement.
However, some system for buybacks should be concluded or things will get messy. Since there is no fixed end-date, people are buying 10m a month for as long Cistra wants to. As this is very indeterminate, they need a solid buyback value. If the buyback value is the original value, however, there will be issues with the next offer, as you will have two classes of bonds floating around, and they will have to be tracked.
As far as I can tell as of now, another auction would result in a clusterfuk, but I'll put some thought into it.
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2009.12.02 22:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Hippopotamus Rex
And to offer them 90% of their money back if they're unhappy at the changes to the terms? I don't think thats right either.
*Sigh* The value of shares has been 150 % of auction price (60 mil/40 mil) since November 18. No investor has chosen to sell.
*Sigh* Your standing offer to repurchase the shares is 36M, hardly 150% of the auction price.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.02 23:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SetrakDark
If the buyback value is the original value, however, there will be issues with the next offer, as you will have two classes of bonds floating around, and they will have to be tracked.
Buyback value will from now on be the average of auction prices (as stated in post 5 - forgot to mention in OPs).
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
SetrakDark
Caldari
DarkCorp Technology and Finance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 00:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cista2
Buyback value will from now on be the average of auction prices (as stated in post 5 - forgot to mention in OPs).
So current investors could potentially lose almost all their bonds' face value? Or the next round of investors could start off with a negative face value if some moron puts the auction total over 4b?
The current investors are lucky your intentions are good. I hope their luck holds. Anyone who invests next round better pray that someone with money isn't stupid.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.12.03 07:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: SetrakDark
...your intentions are good.
Well thank you! You are a great judge of character Setrak.
Originally by: SetrakDark
I hope their luck holds. Anyone who invests next round better pray that someone with money isn't stupid.
If anyone regrets purchasing shares I can still offer them buyback (- 10 %) right after the auction, that's not a problem at all. But once they have been deposited with the investor I will value all sold shares the same, since they don't come with a time stamp.
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Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Xaunt Rauber
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Posted - 2009.12.03 08:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Xaunt Rauber
WTB 2 Shares for 100 million.
Is that 100 million per share, or 50 mil per share?
That would be 50 million per share, but I am open to negotiation from current bond owners. The amount I pay will be entirely determined on how many shares an investor is willing to part with.
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