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gfldex	Posted - 2009.12.03 10:54:00 - [31] Originally by: steveid Let me give you a hypothetical. An alliance has 120 active commited people. They split that into 5 groups of 20 combat fit ships, 1 group of 10 salvagers and 1 group of ten looters. They then warp a group of 20 to an anomaly, pretty much instapop it while the backup fleets loot and salvage. As they do this another site respawns, rinse, repeat. They can do this all day, every day. This is bigger than fixed 10/10 complex's. Its the equivalent of an unquenchable faucet of isk that the wore work you put it the more money you get out. Its giving 0.0 alliances level 4 missions without needing to move systems that instarespawn when your done and drop faction loot. Good observation and sound reasoning. Originally by: steveid Its a BIG problem. You forgot to reason here. Or in other words: Why _is_ it a problem?
Sokratesz	Posted - 2009.12.03 10:55:00 - [32] Edited by: Sokratesz on 03/12/2009 10:55:43 Originally by: ViRUS Pottage And the people safe in 1.0 making pretty much the same isn't a problem? QFT I for one welcome more opportunities to make a living in 0.0, it will draw more people out of the empires I hope.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:01:00 - [33] Edited by: Zeba on 03/12/2009 11:01:40 Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 03/12/2009 10:55:43 Originally by: ViRUS Pottage And the people safe in 1.0 making pretty much the same isn't a problem? QFT I for one welcome more opportunities to make a living in 0.0, it will draw more people out of the empires I hope. If fw missions are any indication then huge rewards will draw the carebears and alliance isk earner alts out of concords loving embrace in droves. Though the hard part so far is to get them to stop whooring lp long enough to spend that pile of isk on some ships and go kill the opposing militia.. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
Kilhu Emmek Minmatar Redshift Industrial Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Alezander Jagen They've got an economist at CCP An Icelandic economist. Very important distinction. --
Sokratesz	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:21:00 - [35] Originally by: Kilhu Emmek Originally by: Alezander Jagen They've got an economist at CCP An Icelandic economist. Very important distinction. That's just mean :P
Amy Wang	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:27:00 - [36] funny 1. most 0.0 alliance with 120 active and organized people have better and more fun things to do then farm anomalies, like whack their neighbors over the head 2. the same 120 people running high sec lvl 4 missions would prolly make the same amount of cash if not more, without having to pay for the space or defend it
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:39:00 - [37] Edited by: Zeba on 03/12/2009 11:40:29 Originally by: Amy Wang funny 1. most 0.0 alliance with 120 active and organized people have better and more fun things to do then farm anomalies, like whack their neighbors over the head 2. the same 120 people running high sec lvl 4 missions would prolly make the same amount of cash if not more, without having to pay for the space or defend it funny 1. most 0.0 alliance with 120 active and organized people need to make isk to buy the stuff to whack their neighbors over the head 2. the same 120 people running high sec lvl4 missions can now stay at home near the action and use those leet mission alts to farm anomalies for better than empire isk and use as a handy alt in a fight or maybe have a combat character in different parts of the territory to cover moar area Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
AlleyKat The Unwanted.	Posted - 2009.12.03 12:00:00 - [38] Originally by: Zeba 1. most 0.0 alliance with 120 active and organized people need to make isk to buy the stuff to whack their neighbors over the head 2. the same 120 people running high sec lvl4 missions can now stay at home near the action and use those leet mission alts to farm anomalies for better than empire isk and use as a handy alt in a fight or maybe have a combat character in different parts of the territory to cover moar area That's a nail/head moment from Zeba. Alliance members shall typically have alts for mission running, and hopefully they will move them out to null-sec. AK EVE-ONLINE VIDEO-MAKING TUTORIALS
Augeas Anvil of Creation	Posted - 2009.12.03 12:06:00 - [39] I've made far, far more ISK than I know what to do with at zero risk to myself whilst not even online in highsec. So how do these anomalies and, indeed, L4s stack up to that?
The Tzar T-Wrecks Cult of War	Posted - 2009.12.03 13:03:00 - [40] The fact remains that even if you whinge about one side or the other; whether lvl4's are too profitable compared to risk or the new anomolies will generate too much isk... ... all are available to anybody who chooses to use them. If you think one is better than the other, um why not go and do them?? If it is too far away (read empire lvl4's) or too 'dangerous' (read 0.0 anomolies) you as a player have chosen to way up your own needs/desires vs time/risk for yourself. Just please for the love of god stop whinging. If you don't like it, don't play. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. StevieSG

Vladimir Griftin Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.03 13:21:00 - [41] Originally by: Augeas I've made far, far more ISK than I know what to do with at zero risk to myself whilst not even online in highsec. So how do these anomalies and, indeed, L4s stack up to that? This isn't a thread about trading or manufacturing because those things don't 'create' ISK. They just move it about. Anomalies, like lvl 4's will pump more ISK into the system, which will subsequently devalue ISK. The new anomalies give 0.0 players the same opportunity to have a steady reliable flow of ISK that is equal to or even above that of level 4 missions. Level 4 mission income should be a baseline for everyone really, which is essentially what this patch has done. On top of that, 0.0 players also have all the benefits that should come with the risk. Such as ore rich full belts, high end gravimetric sites, high level DED plexes and faction spawns. The one thing that's really missing is a way for alliances to make money from their space, at an alliance level.
Deja Thoris Invicta.	Posted - 2009.12.03 13:33:00 - [42] Originally by: Vladimir Griftin The one thing that's really missing is a way for alliances to make money from their space, at an alliance level. Like docking fees, repro fees and renter corps?
steveid Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.12.03 14:22:00 - [43] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: steveid Let me give you a hypothetical. An alliance has 120 active commited people. They split that into 5 groups of 20 combat fit ships, 1 group of 10 salvagers and 1 group of ten looters. They then warp a group of 20 to an anomaly, pretty much instapop it while the backup fleets loot and salvage. As they do this another site respawns, rinse, repeat. They can do this all day, every day. This is bigger than fixed 10/10 complex's. Its the equivalent of an unquenchable faucet of isk that the wore work you put it the more money you get out. Its giving 0.0 alliances level 4 missions without needing to move systems that instarespawn when your done and drop faction loot. Good observation and sound reasoning. Originally by: steveid Its a BIG problem. You forgot to reason here. Or in other words: Why _is_ it a problem? Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Misaki Yuuko	Posted - 2009.12.03 14:41:00 - [44] Edited by: Misaki Yuuko on 03/12/2009 14:42:20 Originally by: Vladimir Griftin Anomalies, like lvl 4's will pump more ISK into the system, which will subsequently devalue ISK. The new anomalies give 0.0 players the same opportunity to have a steady reliable flow of ISK that is equal to or even above that of level 4 missions. Level 4 mission income should be a baseline for everyone really, which is essentially what this patch has done. On top of that, 0.0 players also have all the benefits that should come with the risk. Such as ore rich full belts, high end gravimetric sites, high level DED plexes and faction spawns. The one thing that's really missing is a way for alliances to make money from their space, at an alliance level. The baseline income in 0.0 (and lowsec, which more or less got buffed with FW LP stores & missions, but that's only for people who is in FW, so still needs work) should be way higher than hisec. If CCP wants people to move (even if they are isk-making alts) to 0.0 and empire building they have to reward it. Isk are nto goign to devalue because Dominion IS an HUGE new isk sink in form of sov structures and maintenace fees, it will balance and probably the removal of isk from the economy is gonna be quite big. Alliance objectives still exist in the form of moon mining, which still is very valuable but now is better distributed (will see about technetium and neodymium though) and requeires more effort.
Baneken Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.03 14:47:00 - [45] Ofc. most people seem to forget that most people doing lvl 4 missions are low SP players in BS's not some HC grinders with their marauders and dozens of alts. Considering the cost and PvP capabilities of joe random marauder (and it's pilot) it's no surprise that most profitable mission runners stay the hell away from null sec, not to mention all too common NBSI mentality of most 0.0 alliancies.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2009.12.03 14:51:00 - [46] Originally by: Baneken Ofc. most people seem to remember all too well that most people doing lvl 4 missions are medium SP players in T2/faction fit (faction) BS's set on getting themost isk/hr from teir missions fixed that for you
Misaki Yuuko	Posted - 2009.12.03 15:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Baneken Ofc. most people seem to forget that most people doing lvl 4 missions are low SP players in BS's not some HC grinders with their marauders and dozens of alts. Considering the cost and PvP capabilities of joe random marauder (and it's pilot) it's no surprise that most profitable mission runners stay the hell away from null sec, not to mention all too common NBSI mentality of most 0.0 alliancies. Theorical max profit is what should be used to balance stuff becaus is what min/maxers and experienced people will be doing after a while (it includes average time to gather, haul & sell stuff too). Anyway people rarelly uses 1.5-2 bill ships in 0.0 contrary to hisec for obvious reasons. So what's the point anyway?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.12.03 15:30:00 - [48] Edited by: Akita T on 03/12/2009 15:31:39 Originally by: Misaki Yuuko Anyway people rarelly uses 1.5-2 bill ships in 0.0 contrary to hisec for obvious reasons. So what's the point anyway? Some small number of people rarely use ships worth more than 250 mil in highsec for mission-running too. Also, plenty of people run billion-ISK ships in "dead end" lowsec already. And a few people _DID_ run billions-of-ISK ships in 0.0 already, if it was a "safe area" deep into their own alliance's territory. The point ? Hmm... maybe that you can only do this statistically on collected data after the fact as opposed to analytically before anything goes live ? Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Kilhu Emmek Originally by: Alezander Jagen They've got an economist at CCP An Icelandic economist. Very important distinction. That's just mean :P Mean but sadly (at least partially) true I have had to express my disagreements more than once, and there are some major points of contention on the current expansion too. Of course, my access to statistical data is limited, so I can't be completely sure which side is right unless that data is released for the general public. Originally by: Silver Tongues Originally by: Akita T Basically, they finally fixed the issue of highsec L4s being reasonably lucrative for negligible risks on just about any scale... by introducing a way for a certain number of people to make much more per hour per person in 0.0 For all intents and purposes, this is a GREAT change - people no longer need to keep highsec L4 mission-running alts, they could just as well "run anomalies" in their local 0.0 Huge ISK faucet, you say ? Well, there's a huge ISK sink too now, in form of high-level system upgrades (cyno-related stuff being the most expensive). Akita, you're generally very knowledgeable about the EVE economy, so I have to ask how the new ISK sink is going to affect it. Billions upon billions of isk could potentially vanish every single day from the new isk sink, and it isn't going into player hands like it was before. Do you think this will cause deflation in the market? Too early to tell which way the balance will slant - it depends on way too many factors to call. Also, CCP could always adjust "system upgrade" upkeeps either up or down depending on needs (not that they would, but they could). _ We are recruiting \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Kitimortoa	Posted - 2009.12.03 16:50:00 - [49] Originally by: steveid They needed to defend 10/10 complex's and they were a problem. And the difference between this and missions is travel time. Travel time increases mission completion time considerably for groups of mission runners. Most missions require 1 jump to get to. I don't see why this is such a big deal. Stop being whiny, jealous little girl and play the game.
Misaki Yuuko	Posted - 2009.12.03 17:09:00 - [50] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 03/12/2009 15:31:39 Originally by: Misaki Yuuko Anyway people rarelly uses 1.5-2 bill ships in 0.0 contrary to hisec for obvious reasons. So what's the point anyway? Some small number of people rarely use ships worth more than 250 mil in highsec for mission-running too. Also, plenty of people run billion-ISK ships in "dead end" lowsec already. And a few people _DID_ run billions-of-ISK ships in 0.0 already, if it was a "safe area" deep into their own alliance's territory. The point ? Hmm... maybe that you can only do this statistically on collected data after the fact as opposed to analytically before anything goes live ? No, there is no point in pointing out what he did because is totally irrelevant, the same as what you or I pointed out, either true or not. What only matters is, than similar isk earning/grinding activities related to pve, should be more profitable in 0.0 & lowsec than in hisec, not equal, neither less, but more. (and if 0.0 is more secure is because the players did it, and no, logging off/cloaking is not secure becausde you are losign time, but I'm sure you know this Akita). How do you solve the dilema CCP created in Exodus, I don't care, but is the biggest imbalance ingame right now and has been since... ages, also affecting other related activities (mining etc.) and overall the game economy. If you can buff 0.0 without screwing too much the inflation then do it, if you need to introduce a few isk sinks in the process i'm fine (as they have done), if you need to fix other stuff (ffs, remove insuranfce or fix it) do it, if there is no other solution than nerfing lvl4's because if not things would get bad, then fine. But fix it damnit. Also I have yet to understand all the panic about inflation/deflation, seriouslly people must get a clue: EVE is a closed system, is not like there are 100 different currencies in EVE with different countries exporting-importing goods, inflation and deflation is almost a non-issue (why do you think other MMOs which do not have 'destruction' of goods/currency can survive anyway). What if a battleship costs 300 millions?? If it does is because actually ISK are cheap to earn, and that's because the major economic activity (pve) gives higher income than used to. It's an other way to restablish balance between different security zones, if you increase isk generation in 0.0 and lowsec (bounties) and hisec stays the same, probably prices will raise lowering the adquistion power of hisec people but lowsec/nullsec people will retain it, restablishing some balance indirectlly. is a way to undirectlly nerf hisec without ragequit posts.

Glasyra	Posted - 2009.12.03 18:25:00 - [51] Right now there is massive over production vs whats being used. Back when goons were killing hulks in high sec, there was something like a 3-1 build ratio of new hulks coming into the game vs getting killed. Right now the producers are so good there figthing over .1% cost to get the sale At the same time just look at Jita, there are huge stocks of almost all kinds of ships right now just sitting around on the market. This stock is what keeps prices down. Guess what this patch has done, its causing more ships to go boom, more ships going boom = more ship sales, more ship sales is good for the market of eve. It will take a long time for prices to go up any real amount because most prices are at/below cost or sitting just above the insurance scam situation. Even when prices do go up (more ships are getting blown up) more builders will bring more ship building plants on-line to cover the gap caused by the price going up. ----- Because I just confused myself it works like this Right now a raven costs are about the same as the minerals going into the raven. at this price point only the people with level 5 skills, a shipment network yada yada can make any money (and those who mine the minerals themselves) IF more ravens get blown up, raven sales go up but nothing changes much because the market is just flooded with ravens right now. Once the market sees that ravens are running out, the price will have moved up a bit and it will be profitable for people to buy mins and turn them into ravens. A new point will be established. Now this is the critical point, IF even more ravens get blown up then even more costly (thus profitable) build systems will come online allowing even more ravens to come on the market. The end result will be that the raven will move up 5-10% at best unless a shortage of mins happens or the overall econ gets out of wack from a war torn world (this is a good thing). After a long time, we will then see the price come back down somewhat, stabilizing at cost for the mins (like it did this time)
cho0li0 Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:08:00 - [52] 0.0 is more profitable than empire! TO THE FORUMS!
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:14:00 - [53] wasn't like 90% of the responses to the dev blog where they announced the Pirate Detection Arrays "anoms suck, I'm going to go run level 4 missions instead" You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:31:00 - [54] Originally by: steveid Quote: Pirate Detection Arrays Each level of this upgrade gives you four anomalies per level, each of which re-spawns instantly upon completion. This mean that at Level 5 you are guaranteed to have twenty anomalies at all times in a system. These are basically dungeons which spawn waves of NPC's for you to happily shoot. The top level anomalies in terms of ISK per hour are among some of the most profitable content in the game. These anomalies are awesome because there is a constant supply of them and there are no skill requirements to scan them down. They can be found by anyone using the onboard scanner with a 100% success rate. Basically, if you are in a system that's small enough to be covered by one probe, you will get the full list of available sites instantly and you can warp to them. These anomalies also have a percentage chance to spawn NPC faction commanders, as well as escalate to other dungeons. Let me give you a hypothetical. An alliance has 120 active commited people. They split that into 5 groups of 20 combat fit ships, 1 group of 10 salvagers and 1 group of ten looters. They then warp a group of 20 to an anomaly, pretty much instapop it while the backup fleets loot and salvage. As they do this another site respawns, rinse, repeat. They can do this all day, every day. This is bigger than fixed 10/10 complex's. Its the equivalent of an unquenchable faucet of isk that the wore work you put it the more money you get out. Its giving 0.0 alliances level 4 missions without needing to move systems that instarespawn when your done and drop faction loot. Its a BIG problem. The bounties are small, the real reward is officer loot, which doesnt 'add' to the total ISK. It isnt a 'faucet' in the EVE sense. Unless you're refering to the ISK that a 00 entity can bring in, which should be alot, because it's 00 AND we lost our moon income. ----------------- Friends Forever
Mr Ignitious Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Mikal Drey [anecdotal] the upgrades are tiered and each level of upgrade spawns that tier anomoly. a L1 upgrade spawns 4x frigate sized anomolies roughly mirroring a L1 mission. L2 frigate/cruiser L2 mission etc . . . . you get the point. . so a L4 anomoly will be the ones spawning battleships. this means that a L5 upgraded system will spawn 4x L1 4x L2 4x L3 4x L4 4x L5 tier anomolies NOT 20x L5 anomolies. [/anecdotal] This is an important thing to bring up if you ask me. Firstly: if this is the case, that doesn't even seem like that much isk entering the system even if you do coordinate together to rampage said CA's. Thats NOTHING compared to the likely around 20 lvl 4 missions being pooped out by penirgman, motsu, dodixie etc. I think its kind of sad that the L1 CA's don't go away at any point... because those things are just obnoxious and a waste. L3+ for lvl 5 pirate detectors would be sweet. That would actually be able to start supporting individuals in an alliance. However though, as I understand it, don't the quality of belt rats also increase in quality with some other upgrade as well? Never the less I am now standing firmly beside there is no need for doom saying about economy crashing due to dominion. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Ava Starfire	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:44:00 - [56] 0.0 should be more profitable than highsec...but sadly, they could make it 100x as profitable, and 95% of high sec players still wouldnt leave. Their loss, grats to you guys for getting an isk source that isnt related to moon goo. Now CCP, fix losec income kthx. Space is fun!
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:54:00 - [57] Originally by: Mr Ignitious I think its kind of sad that the L1 CA's don't go away at any point... because those things are just obnoxious and a waste. L3+ for lvl 5 pirate detectors would be sweet. That would actually be able to start supporting individuals in an alliance. Actually, that's one of the better features of the system as I see it – as with some of the skill changes, it allows more room for and assigns more usefulness to new players who want to get out into 0.0 early. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Zahorite	Posted - 2009.12.03 20:47:00 - [58] I'm just tired of people saying that these are more profitable than lvl 4 missions. Right now, no they aren't. Especially since they keep on running into bugs and not respawning like they are supposed to. Once that is fixed then we will see if they are actually more profitable than lvl 4's in high sec. From what I've seen they really just aren't living up to my expectations, especially since the onboard scanner sucks at tracking them which means I have to get rid of something in a high slot to fit a probe launcher now.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.12.04 03:27:00 - [59] Originally by: Zahorite ... means I have to get rid of something in a high slot to fit a probe launcher now. Don't you have folks hanging around in covops frigates watching gates and whatnot? Why can't they fleet-warp folks to anomalies or at least drop bookmarks in cans for you? [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Juan Valhdez	Posted - 2009.12.04 04:59:00 - [60] Originally by: cho0li0 0.0 is more profitable than empire! TO THE FORUMS!



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