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is it just me or 750k m3 is f***ing insane for infrastructure hubs?

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General Esylium	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:03:00 - [1] Seriously, I was hoping dominion will nerf powerblocks and huge alliances, and give a chance to smaller entities, am I misunderstanding the mechanic here or is it really that alliances will have to use a regular freighter to move the infrastructure hubs one by one through tens of systems of 0.0? which means that you need a few hundreds man fleet as escort or a titan jump bridge? combine that with sophisticated spying, no alliance will be able to escort such a thing without being attacked by every nearby blobing alliance? and moreover, we have to do that for every single system we take? is CCP freaking insane, or all the eve players together? if I misread it or something, please tell me, otherwise prove me wrong...
Hot Fudge Minmatar Sweet -N- Sticky	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:09:00 - [2] The attacks on freighter convoys have already started to happen. There was a news item this morning where Solar Fleet and Razor both lost over 10 freighters each in one assault on each alliance. I am not involved in the 0.0 life at the moment, and I even agree that it is a logistic nightmare for alliances. I guess that is the risks to having your own space. ========================= Sweet, sticky, and bad for your health.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:09:00 - [3] The tools to take and hold sov are easily transportable by normal logistics lines. Hubs however are pretty much one time installs and will be like a moon mine only in this case everyone who helps out by participating and raising the bonus levels will get a nice slice of the pie. Also remember that most territories are going to shrink considerably so they won't need nearly as many as the current colors would indicate. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
Swiftgaze	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Zeba Also remember that most territories are going to shrink considerably I wanna see proof of that. :P
schurem Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:12:00 - [5] We had a big operation moving all them huge bastards up to our space yesterday. it was a tense, long op. lots of fun, though the boss thought otherwise. Unless some other outfits, we got all our eggs across without a single loss. So i say, cheers CCP for making the new sov stuff challenging!
Mars Amar	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:14:00 - [6] Actually you are right. I too thought 0.0 was going to open to the masses but these infrasture hubs are totally massive & small corps / alliances will be unable to move them. Probably a great idea thought up by ccp but badly planned after all most the devs are in the big alliances anyway so not a problem for them
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:15:00 - [7] Can these hub things not be built in facilities close to the system they are to be deployed? Or do they have to be brought in from Empire?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:15:00 - [8] Nope, I think making hubs so large that a Freighter is required to transport them is absolutely the correct way to do it.
warning messenger	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:18:00 - [9] Just for information how much an infrastructure hub is worth ?
General Esylium	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:20:00 - [10] Originally by: schurem We had a big operation moving all them huge bastards up to our space yesterday. it was a tense, long op. lots of fun, though the boss thought otherwise. Unless some other outfits, we got all our eggs across without a single loss. So i say, cheers CCP for making the new sov stuff challenging! says the guy from a 3000 man alliance!! tell me, how the F* is a smaller entity supposed to be able to take any bit of space? this is a complete mega boost for big alliances, and a devastating nerf to any entity smaller than 1000 man alliance, good job CCP, you f*ed the game really good this time!
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Mars Amar Actually you are right. I too thought 0.0 was going to open to the masses but these infrasture hubs are totally massive & small corps / alliances will be unable to move them. Probably a great idea thought up by ccp but badly planned after all most the devs are in the big alliances anyway so not a problem for them Holding sovereignty is a life-style choice, not something you and a half dozen friends from the office do for an hour or two on weekends. If anyone could hold sov it would lose meaning and all the epic stuff that happens in 0.0 and makes sov something people want would be gone.
Caleb Defiance Caldari Templars of Space	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:20:00 - [12] 0.0 was meant to be hard. If you don't have the manpower to move a hub...how the hell will you protect your hub? ---- eXceed Inc.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:24:00 - [13] Originally by: Swiftgaze Originally by: Zeba Also remember that most territories are going to shrink considerably I wanna see proof of that. :P D-day +8 and beyond will tell. But if you want a personal guesstimate since alot of this new sov stuff is attackable by small to medium gangs let me do a bit of precience. Basically for every system the years of moon goo income lets the current alliances spam and maintain structures just like the old deathstar pos days the more active organized defence gangs there will need to be maintained to keep stuff from constantly getting put in reinforced and so lose the bonus. Remember that almoast every current territory holder practiced the akf model of a few token members hanging at the outposts to react to any mails from somthing important getting attacked whilst the vast majority of the members run missions in empire to make isk or others more fortunate in the wallet only logging in to switch skills or see if a tower was reinforced giving them plenty of time to get organized. This is no more. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
schurem Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:25:00 - [14] Edited by: schurem on 03/12/2009 11:25:20 Smaller entities should do it the same way we did it: by calling in a little help from their friends and neighbours and stomping on the faces of their enemies and neighbours.
Vysnaite Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:26:00 - [15] It's good as it is. From my point - it adds convoys and adds raiders. Or you enjoyed the POS bashing so much, that something new hurts your head?
Morphisat Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:27:00 - [16] Originally by: General Esylium tell me, how the F* is a smaller entity supposed to be able to take any bit of space? this is a complete mega boost for big alliances, and a devastating nerf to any entity smaller than 1000 man alliance, good job CCP, you f*ed the game really good this time! I agree that the few times CCP presented Dominion they gave us the impression that they wanted to get more people to 0.0 and break up the big alliances somewhat and let 'the little guy' in. I guess practically though this is not what happened in Dominion at all ...
Sokratesz	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:27:00 - [17] CCP wants to get more freigthers killed..and by the looks of it, it worked.
Kara Sharalien	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:28:00 - [18] Originally by: Swiftgaze Originally by: Zeba Also remember that most territories are going to shrink considerably I wanna see proof of that. :P wildly inappropriate has lost sov over 35 systems in the past 24 hours, razor allience a similar number. you may check these stats yourself ingame. click the highlighted word sovereignty on the system info, go to the changes tab, its all there. one of my mates is in WI, and he says they were abandoned voluntarily because WI feels it to be a waste of resources to hold those systems as they arnt currently using them. Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:33:00 - [19] Originally by: schurem Edited by: schurem on 03/12/2009 11:25:20 Smaller entities should do it the same way we did it: by calling in a little help from their friends and neighbours and stomping on the faces of their enemies and neighbours. A freighter is easy to skill for and are around 600-700mil atm so even a solo player can have one with billions to spare in his wallet. As far as gettng them in once space starts to open up well thats easy enough if you are patient and carefully scout out the route. Again remember that the hubs are for isk generation and not to hold sov so the process of planting the flag to have a place for the hub is quite doable if you have the right freinds. Aka a cap fleet. Which tbh at todays prices is well within even an empire hugging carebear corps wallet if they arsed themselves to train for caps. Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
General Esylium	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Sokratesz it worked. yep, massive blobs vs massive blobs and hundreds of cap ships. My point exactly? who is benefiting from dominion? and who is getting f***ed in the ass? smaller alliances or blobbing carebears?
fuze Gallente Quam Singulari	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:38:00 - [21] Originally by: General Esylium tell me, how the F* is a smaller entity supposed to be able to take any bit of space? this is a complete mega boost for big alliances, and a devastating nerf to any entity smaller than 1000 man alliance, good job CCP, you fed the game really good this time! They were warned. They ignored it and just went ahead. So in short they don't care about you at all. Learn to live with it or cancel your subscription. (Like I did) Originally by:* The Mittani Where's the excellence?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:40:00 - [22] Originally by: fuze Originally by: General Esylium tell me, how the F* is a smaller entity supposed to be able to take any bit of space? this is a complete mega boost for big alliances, and a devastating nerf to any entity smaller than 1000 man alliance, good job CCP, you f*ed the game really good this time! They were warned. They ignored it and just went ahead. So in short they don't care about you at all. Learn to live with it or cancel your subscription. (Like I did) So far it seems to be mostly the larger alliances who are losing out because of the size of the hubs.
Chalrynn Illyndar White Whales	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:43:00 - [23] For certain areas people would be better off doing a freighter, someone to web said freighter, and a handful of people to scout around. Any sign of inbound hostiles, even one or two and simply log the freighter. They could be prepared even further ahead of time by setting up in-line safespots off the next gate so that once in warp the freighter HAS to be probed out and it'll have plenty of time to safely log. IE. Warp in------------------------>Safespot---->Exit Gate Granted this assumes you don't have to pass through any heavily populated areas, but around downtime It was possible to get from empire way out to deep 0.0 (Such as omist) and never see anyone else.
General Esylium	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: fuze Originally by: General Esylium tell me, how the F* is a smaller entity supposed to be able to take any bit of space? this is a complete mega boost for big alliances, and a devastating nerf to any entity smaller than 1000 man alliance, good job CCP, you f*ed the game really good this time! They were warned. They ignored it and just went ahead. So in short they don't care about you at all. Learn to live with it or cancel your subscription. (Like I did) So far it seems to be mostly the larger alliances who are losing out because of the size of the hubs. because smaller ones are not insanely suicidal to try moving freighters in 0.0, they are already cancelling their subscriptions!
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Kara Sharalien Originally by: Swiftgaze Originally by: Zeba Also remember that most territories are going to shrink considerably I wanna see proof of that. :P wildly inappropriate has lost sov over 35 systems in the past 24 hours, razor allience a similar number. you may check these stats yourself ingame. click the highlighted word sovereignty on the system info, go to the changes tab, its all there. one of my mates is in WI, and he says they were abandoned voluntarily because WI feels it to be a waste of resources to hold those systems as they arnt currently using them. The thing is, though, that there's a vast difference between "shrunken territories" and "more space available". The new sov systems encourages actively claiming fewer systems (as in, planting your flag and getting your name up in the corner), but the upgrade system still falls somewhat short of letting people stay within those claims. So while it might not show up on the map, the large blocs will still maintain a border around, and consider as "theirs" about the same swathes of space as before. The territories may look smaller on the map, but you'll still get just as blown up for venturing into the wrong system – only now, it might not be readily apparent which these "wrong systems" are. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:44:00 - [26] Originally by: General Esylium tell me, how the F* is a smaller entity supposed to be able to take any bit of space? Scouts, quiet moments around DT, few people in the alliance actually knowing when and where you are and one or 2 weeks worth of patience (aka willing to accept moving at a pace of 1 or 2 jumps a day). Originally by:** Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:48:00 - [27] Originally by: General Esylium Originally by: Malcanis So far it seems to be mostly the larger alliances who are losing out because of the size of the hubs. because smaller ones are not insanely suicidal to try moving freighters in 0.0, they are already cancelling their subscriptions! If they're quitting without even trying, just 2 days after the patch, then they're the kind of weasksauce emo losers who would never get space in the first place. Given the terrible quality of some of the alliances who have space under the old sov system, really the bar is not set that high. You seem to think that you should just be given a constellation or two for the asking. Oh and moving freighters through 0.0 isn't that hard. Scout the routes, make bookmarks, use scouts, use webbers (Hyenas are particularly good for this- quick locking, extra web range) for instawarping. A huge convoy of battleships that lights up the map for everyone to see is not necessarily the best way to go about it.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:53:00 - [28] Or they may be at an advantage because small alliances can do things like that more secretly and have fewer spies ;)
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:54:00 - [29] Originally by: General Esylium Originally by: Sokratesz it worked. yep, massive blobs vs massive blobs and hundreds of cap ships. My point exactly? who is benefiting from dominion? and who is getting f*ed in the ass? smaller alliances or blobbing carebears? Right now the timer is ticking for the established alliances to firm up their territory before the grace period runs out. As there are only so many entrances to nullsec and everyone loves a turkey shoot every able bodied member who can apply damage is camping the gates. Seems that ccp finally figured out how to break the rainbownaptrain after all. Now once the grace period is over and the targets trickle down to the odd carebear on his first journey out to the dark places then lulzcap camps will go away and start beating on each others newly formed areas on the map. Then the smaller guys can start to ninja in and try to get everything setup before they get noticed and swatted. Should be some damn interesting times ahead tbh. Originally by:** CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
Carniflex Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.12.03 12:01:00 - [30] There is 3 ways to move freighter in 0.0 (i) Brute force. (ii) Titan Bridge. (iii) Sneaking. Two first ones are the playground of the big boys as sneaking is timeconsuming and you can't really 'sneak' with blob of 15 freighters. Last one is something that can be done by one good guy with 5 accounts or so. Might take a week or so to get deep enough, but you will get there eventually if you are careful. Unless you have to pass very hostile areas inbetween ofc, in what case I would suggest to try to get some of your bigger neighbours titan bridge you for a fee or something. Assuming you can trust them with that.

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