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persistant ships, a compromise for all.

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Lygos	Posted - 2004.11.11 23:08:00 - [31] I agree about ships being persistent. Provided of course that npcs aren't going to warp to you. I believe the system you are proposing only makes the destruction of player empire owned structures too easy. The only place anyone should be able to safely log off post-exodus is inside a station. If it were realistic you'd have a fear of micro-meteoroids or somesuch wouldn't you? Fleets aren't going to be the main targets of opportunity forever. Constellations of POS rather will the object of attrition warfare. Have soft targets of one's own creates the circumstances for combat- so anything that encourages their production also encourages the contestation of their continued existence. Logging off in space simply allows one to prosecute ganking within a very short time frame, and then continue to violate a player empire's soveriegnty with near total immunity. If you want to grief them, you should have to do it with stealth, speed and numbers for fleets that originate beyond the zone of the target's control. You should actually always have to work for your ill-gotten gains or vengeance. The only time I see a need for logging off in space is when your client is bugged. And only then is the auto-ss useful for preserving you from npcs. Any other future use of logging off is simply exploiting out of game mechanics.
Lygos	Posted - 2004.11.11 23:08:00 - [32] I agree about ships being persistent. Provided of course that npcs aren't going to warp to you. I believe the system you are proposing only makes the destruction of player empire owned structures too easy. The only place anyone should be able to safely log off post-exodus is inside a station. If it were realistic you'd have a fear of micro-meteoroids or somesuch wouldn't you? Fleets aren't going to be the main targets of opportunity forever. Constellations of POS rather will the object of attrition warfare. Have soft targets of one's own creates the circumstances for combat- so anything that encourages their production also encourages the contestation of their continued existence. Logging off in space simply allows one to prosecute ganking within a very short time frame, and then continue to violate a player empire's soveriegnty with near total immunity. If you want to grief them, you should have to do it with stealth, speed and numbers for fleets that originate beyond the zone of the target's control. You should actually always have to work for your ill-gotten gains or vengeance. The only time I see a need for logging off in space is when your client is bugged. And only then is the auto-ss useful for preserving you from npcs. Any other future use of logging off is simply exploiting out of game mechanics.
Orb Lati	Posted - 2004.11.11 23:50:00 - [33] The best solution i believe is just alter the existing mechanics of logging off. Currently upon logging a ship is spose to initiat a warp to a randomly generated safe spot (i believe a ship is ment to keep warping until cap runs out) This warping is ment to give attackers a chance to warp scramble the ship to prevent it from leaving and making it completely vunrable. (if this doesnt work properly then it should be made to work) I would propose that if a ship makes it into warp and to its safe spot it doesnt disappear but in fact becomes an abandonded ship with no pilot. Upon logging back in, the ship however stays at its safe spot and doesnt automactially warp back to its previous position. If a ship is located and destroyed (or captured) while a pilot is offline then the pod appears at the poition of the ship where it was destroyed. When a player unlogs his ship automatcially starts its warp sequence, and if scambled it will keep trying to auto warp until it is either destroyed, captured, or finally makes it into warp (ie the scrmbling ship stops) This allows the following things 1.) system scanners to detect the strenght of a logged off fleet. 2.) due to the difficulty of finding truly long distance BM's it should allow relativly short term safety for ships to unlogged players. (logging players should only be able to truly keep thier ships safe by docking at stations) 3.) due to staying at the safe spot it means that the logged off pilot can log in. wait for his cap to replenish the logg off so that they can warp to an even safer spot if they felt thier previous logg off wias with low cap. It also breaks (to a point) the expoit of players logging at blockades and automactially appearing at the logg off point when the reconnect. they have to a manually group back up and warp back to there blockade "scout" 4.) the mechanics of holding a logged ship via warp scambling might allow oppertunities of real piracy where a ship can be captureed off an opponet. 5.) If a players loggs to protect his pilot from a well orginsed blockade (ie ship near destruction and scrammbled) then they only delay their risk as when they log back in thier pod will still be at the location of blockade. well thats my 2 cents, hope its usufull "We Worship Strength, because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
Orb Lati	Posted - 2004.11.11 23:50:00 - [34] The best solution i believe is just alter the existing mechanics of logging off. Currently upon logging a ship is spose to initiat a warp to a randomly generated safe spot (i believe a ship is ment to keep warping until cap runs out) This warping is ment to give attackers a chance to warp scramble the ship to prevent it from leaving and making it completely vunrable. (if this doesnt work properly then it should be made to work) I would propose that if a ship makes it into warp and to its safe spot it doesnt disappear but in fact becomes an abandonded ship with no pilot. Upon logging back in, the ship however stays at its safe spot and doesnt automactially warp back to its previous position. If a ship is located and destroyed (or captured) while a pilot is offline then the pod appears at the poition of the ship where it was destroyed. When a player unlogs his ship automatcially starts its warp sequence, and if scambled it will keep trying to auto warp until it is either destroyed, captured, or finally makes it into warp (ie the scrmbling ship stops) This allows the following things 1.) system scanners to detect the strenght of a logged off fleet. 2.) due to the difficulty of finding truly long distance BM's it should allow relativly short term safety for ships to unlogged players. (logging players should only be able to truly keep thier ships safe by docking at stations) 3.) due to staying at the safe spot it means that the logged off pilot can log in. wait for his cap to replenish the logg off so that they can warp to an even safer spot if they felt thier previous logg off wias with low cap. It also breaks (to a point) the expoit of players logging at blockades and automactially appearing at the logg off point when the reconnect. they have to a manually group back up and warp back to there blockade "scout" 4.) the mechanics of holding a logged ship via warp scambling might allow oppertunities of real piracy where a ship can be captureed off an opponet. 5.) If a players loggs to protect his pilot from a well orginsed blockade (ie ship near destruction and scrammbled) then they only delay their risk as when they log back in thier pod will still be at the location of blockade. well thats my 2 cents, hope its usufull "We Worship Strength, because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.11.12 00:19:00 - [35] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/11/2004 00:24:31 Pointless given system scanning in Shiva. Logging off outside a system would GUARENTEE you lose your ship if they look for it. How does this improve the game? Even 15 minutes is MORE than enough for someone to track your ship down. You'd kill 0.0 populations. Too much risk. POS will be targets which can't run away. What else do you want? "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.11.12 00:19:00 - [36] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/11/2004 00:24:31 Pointless given system scanning in Shiva. Logging off outside a system would GUARENTEE you lose your ship if they look for it. How does this improve the game? Even 15 minutes is MORE than enough for someone to track your ship down. You'd kill 0.0 populations. Too much risk. POS will be targets which can't run away. What else do you want? "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Sochin	Posted - 2004.11.12 01:43:00 - [37] With System Scanning I think we should just increase the time before your ship dissapears to 30 minutes to an hour. Basically long enough that safespotted people could be found within a reasonable time after hiding, but short enough that its not likely that dedicated safespotbusters can come into an empty system and scan for everyone who logged off there. Nemo me impune lacessit
Sochin	Posted - 2004.11.12 01:43:00 - [38] With System Scanning I think we should just increase the time before your ship dissapears to 30 minutes to an hour. Basically long enough that safespotted people could be found within a reasonable time after hiding, but short enough that its not likely that dedicated safespotbusters can come into an empty system and scan for everyone who logged off there. Nemo me impune lacessit
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:03:00 - [39] IMO the best way is to keep it how it is nowà nobody wants to lose a ship right? Well to stop the logoff logon thingà A simple solution would be to make char aviators stay in local, make them like grayed outà and say offlineà but there ships are gone, that way IF a fleet logs off, you will have like 10-30+ ppl shown as offline THIS way ppl donÆt lose there ships and those mass log on/off will be stoppedà both parties happyà and you can add on the map showing offline individuals tooà that would make things interesting, but thatÆs a debatable option IMO support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:03:00 - [40] IMO the best way is to keep it how it is nowà nobody wants to lose a ship right? Well to stop the logoff logon thingà A simple solution would be to make char aviators stay in local, make them like grayed outà and say offlineà but there ships are gone, that way IF a fleet logs off, you will have like 10-30+ ppl shown as offline THIS way ppl donÆt lose there ships and those mass log on/off will be stoppedà both parties happyà and you can add on the map showing offline individuals tooà that would make things interesting, but thatÆs a debatable option IMO support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:07:00 - [41] The justification for having offline ppl is the same thing like when you enter a countryà your info can be found if you left or notà So simply having this system would be a good idea.. as far as having the number of offline ppl be displayed on map is debatableà But I think itÆs a really good compromise between having your ship stolen/blown up or just showing that you are offline in this systemà Sure people will be able to camp a system but even if you know someone is some place, doesnÆt make it easy since you cant find them until they log onà and that is a lot better then having your ship stolen/destroyed when you are not aroundà. At least like this you have a fighting chance or chance to fleeà support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:07:00 - [42] The justification for having offline ppl is the same thing like when you enter a countryà your info can be found if you left or notà So simply having this system would be a good idea.. as far as having the number of offline ppl be displayed on map is debatableà But I think itÆs a really good compromise between having your ship stolen/blown up or just showing that you are offline in this systemà Sure people will be able to camp a system but even if you know someone is some place, doesnÆt make it easy since you cant find them until they log onà and that is a lot better then having your ship stolen/destroyed when you are not aroundà. At least like this you have a fighting chance or chance to fleeà support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Dsanta	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:11:00 - [43] Edited by: Dsanta on 12/11/2004 02:15:00 in my opinion, its a stupid idea. who would want to play a game that is 24/7 and when they log off are not safe anymore and someone can kill away all of their hard work. no one would pay for this game if that happens. i say deal woith the ppl that log off in hostile areas while under attack. if you havent figure it out by now: 1 min delay in friendly area. 2 min delay in hostle/under attack area. u still have 2 damn mins to kill the ship, and if you cant do that in 2 mins, then ur ship sucs and you might as well give up. --Dsanta ----------------------------------------------- Linkage
Dsanta	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:11:00 - [44] Edited by: Dsanta on 12/11/2004 02:15:00 in my opinion, its a stupid idea. who would want to play a game that is 24/7 and when they log off are not safe anymore and someone can kill away all of their hard work. no one would pay for this game if that happens. i say deal woith the ppl that log off in hostile areas while under attack. if you havent figure it out by now: 1 min delay in friendly area. 2 min delay in hostle/under attack area. u still have 2 damn mins to kill the ship, and if you cant do that in 2 mins, then ur ship sucs and you might as well give up. --Dsanta ----------------------------------------------- Linkage
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:15:00 - [45] Originally by: Dsanta Edited by: Dsanta on 12/11/2004 02:15:00 in my opinion, its a stupid idea. who would want to play a game that is 24/7 and when they log off are not safe anymore and someone can kill away all of their hard work. no one would pay for this game if that happens. i say deal woith the ppl that log off in hostile areas while under attack. if you havent figure it out by now: 1 min delay in friendly area. 2 min delay in hostle/under attack area. u still have 2 damn mins to kill the ship, and if you cant do that in 2 mins, then ur ship sucs and you might as well give up. --Dsanta you are talking about the original post right? because mine just expands on the current one... just giving ppl the info but it is up to them what to do... and its fair for everyone because it prevents or alerts you of a mass log/off or the possibility of one... that i think is the best compromise possible in this game, with both sides being still happy I disagree a lot with the original poster, I donÆt want to lose a ship while im offlineà there are just too many legitimate reasons to have to log off in space vs one illegitimate which is gankingà support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:15:00 - [46] Originally by: Dsanta Edited by: Dsanta on 12/11/2004 02:15:00 in my opinion, its a stupid idea. who would want to play a game that is 24/7 and when they log off are not safe anymore and someone can kill away all of their hard work. no one would pay for this game if that happens. i say deal woith the ppl that log off in hostile areas while under attack. if you havent figure it out by now: 1 min delay in friendly area. 2 min delay in hostle/under attack area. u still have 2 damn mins to kill the ship, and if you cant do that in 2 mins, then ur ship sucs and you might as well give up. --Dsanta you are talking about the original post right? because mine just expands on the current one... just giving ppl the info but it is up to them what to do... and its fair for everyone because it prevents or alerts you of a mass log/off or the possibility of one... that i think is the best compromise possible in this game, with both sides being still happy I disagree a lot with the original poster, I donÆt want to lose a ship while im offlineà there are just too many legitimate reasons to have to log off in space vs one illegitimate which is gankingà support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Dsanta	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:21:00 - [47] i hate ganking and yes i was talking about the first post. ----------------------------------------------- Linkage
Dsanta	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:21:00 - [48] i hate ganking and yes i was talking about the first post. ----------------------------------------------- Linkage
NanoRunner	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:28:00 - [49] Uhm just make your ship stay active for 2 min after logging, will prevent people form logging to avoid death, while not being asburd about allowing people who are ready to stop playing from having to travel for 15-20 minutes.
NanoRunner	Posted - 2004.11.12 02:28:00 - [50] Uhm just make your ship stay active for 2 min after logging, will prevent people form logging to avoid death, while not being asburd about allowing people who are ready to stop playing from having to travel for 15-20 minutes.
Lygos	Posted - 2004.11.12 03:38:00 - [51] I think you should have to ante something up if you want to inhabit 0.0 permanently. What's the point in wanting other people to put up things for you to knock down if you can just log off everything your particular alliance owns when you're ready to call it quits for the night? What possible incentive would you have to own more than maybe a single unloggable structure? What organization would have the manhours to monitor more than a couple 24/7 when any aggressor and their granny can keep operating like they do now whenever they feel like it? Permanent ships is the only way to bring about player empire war by attrition. Otherwise we'll all just keep fighting in inties forever, crossing our fingers that some kind of entertainment comes along in the next few hours, or maybe biweekly destroying that singular pos per region that some group had the temerity to construct in the hopes of being able to monitor it maybe 17 hours a day that week. The maths of aggressor versus defender aren't "unfair".. it's just incredibly cheap on the aggressor's side for the expenditure of manhours, which is far more precious than any isk.
Lygos	Posted - 2004.11.12 03:38:00 - [52] I think you should have to ante something up if you want to inhabit 0.0 permanently. What's the point in wanting other people to put up things for you to knock down if you can just log off everything your particular alliance owns when you're ready to call it quits for the night? What possible incentive would you have to own more than maybe a single unloggable structure? What organization would have the manhours to monitor more than a couple 24/7 when any aggressor and their granny can keep operating like they do now whenever they feel like it? Permanent ships is the only way to bring about player empire war by attrition. Otherwise we'll all just keep fighting in inties forever, crossing our fingers that some kind of entertainment comes along in the next few hours, or maybe biweekly destroying that singular pos per region that some group had the temerity to construct in the hopes of being able to monitor it maybe 17 hours a day that week. The maths of aggressor versus defender aren't "unfair".. it's just incredibly cheap on the aggressor's side for the expenditure of manhours, which is far more precious than any isk.
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 04:57:00 - [53] persistent ships is a silly idea though... a real compromise would be to have the ppl show offline in the local system when they logoff... that is the best thing... making it quite obvious if there is going to be a ganking in middle of 0.0 system i think this only needs to be in 0.4 and lower systems though... or simply stating how many are online/offline in the system is much better then having this "persistent ship" thing. I donÆt see how with shiva coming out that this ôpersistent shipö thing would stand a chance if anyone could find your ship and blow it up in space or steal it. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.11.12 04:57:00 - [54] persistent ships is a silly idea though... a real compromise would be to have the ppl show offline in the local system when they logoff... that is the best thing... making it quite obvious if there is going to be a ganking in middle of 0.0 system i think this only needs to be in 0.4 and lower systems though... or simply stating how many are online/offline in the system is much better then having this "persistent ship" thing. I donÆt see how with shiva coming out that this ôpersistent shipö thing would stand a chance if anyone could find your ship and blow it up in space or steal it. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Ixianus	Posted - 2004.11.12 06:02:00 - [55] Well I dont support this idea. However an interesting thought occured to me about persistant ships and cloaking devices.
Ixianus	Posted - 2004.11.12 06:02:00 - [56] Well I dont support this idea. However an interesting thought occured to me about persistant ships and cloaking devices.
Deides	Posted - 2004.11.12 08:26:00 - [57] This is a problem faced by most mmorpg's. I preffer the "logout timer" method. In order to logout in space, there would be a 30-45 second timer where the person logging out would just be a sitting duck before the system actually logs the ship out. Click logout>ship is immobilized for 30-45 seconds>logs out. now you can say "30-45 seconds would not make any difference since ppl would just logout 1-2 mins before the hostile shows up, and login again later" In that case, just make the timer longer. We're the People's front of Minmatar, Not the Minmatar People's front! ... The minmatar people's front... ****ers!
Deides	Posted - 2004.11.12 08:26:00 - [58] This is a problem faced by most mmorpg's. I preffer the "logout timer" method. In order to logout in space, there would be a 30-45 second timer where the person logging out would just be a sitting duck before the system actually logs the ship out. Click logout>ship is immobilized for 30-45 seconds>logs out. now you can say "30-45 seconds would not make any difference since ppl would just logout 1-2 mins before the hostile shows up, and login again later" In that case, just make the timer longer. We're the People's front of Minmatar, Not the Minmatar People's front! ... The minmatar people's front... ****ers!
Halod Crane	Posted - 2004.11.12 08:27:00 - [59] Ok here is my idea... In 0.0 non-empire space if a player logs out in space then their name will stay in local but grayed out. If they log in a station or POS then their name is removed from local. When a player logs out in space there ship is warped to a safe spot if not being warp scrambled by players or NPCs. And their ship will remain their for 10 minutes then disapper. When they log back in their ship will warp back to a new safe spot with 0 cap. That way when a fleet logs off then logs back on then they will be scared. This will also prevent a fleet or a person logging off at a station or gate to log back in at the same spot. In empire space keep the current system. "Keep It Real" "Its all about the Blob"
Halod Crane	Posted - 2004.11.12 08:27:00 - [60] Ok here is my idea... In 0.0 non-empire space if a player logs out in space then their name will stay in local but grayed out. If they log in a station or POS then their name is removed from local. When a player logs out in space there ship is warped to a safe spot if not being warp scrambled by players or NPCs. And their ship will remain their for 10 minutes then disapper. When they log back in their ship will warp back to a new safe spot with 0 cap. That way when a fleet logs off then logs back on then they will be scared. This will also prevent a fleet or a person logging off at a station or gate to log back in at the same spot. In empire space keep the current system. "Keep It Real" "Its all about the Blob"

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